EP93: How To Unleash What's Holding Dads Back

Interview with Jeff Wickersham / Warrior Dad, Fatherhood Coach

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Sometimes unexpected bad outcomes lead to great personal growth. A decade ago, Jeff Wickersham was let go from his job at American Express. It was his livelihood; it was some part of his identity as a provider. But he turned that loss into a moment to connect more deeply with his sons and wife and that spawned the idea for what became Morning Fire Coaching - a program to help fathers be more fully present in their family's life. From that came the Warrior Dad experience - an immersive program meant to reawaken a father's priorities in life. Listen to the three most common challenges fathers face and solutions that any man can apply.

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Transcript

00;00;06;02 - 00;00;28;06
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, silly, strange and sublime aspects of being a lead dad in a world where men who are the go to parent aren't always accepted at work, among their friends or in the community for what they're doing. I'm your host, Paul Sullivan. Our podcast is just one of the many things we've produced each week at the Company of Dads.

00;00;28;07 - 00;00;53;07
Paul Sullivan
We have various features, including the lead dad of the week. We have our community both online and in person. We have a new resource library for all fathers. The one stop shop to know about all of this is our newsletter, The Dad. So sign up today at the Company of dads.com backslash. The dad. Today my guest is Jeff Wickersham, founder of Morning Fire Coaching and leader of the Warrior Dad Experience.

00;00;53;09 - 00;01;15;27
Paul Sullivan
But trust me, after naming the two businesses, he is actually a nice guy. Well, at least handsome Jeff is a father of two boys who had a ten year career with American Express until he left to start his own coaching business. But even while at Amex, Jeff was the lead dad, not least of all because his wife, a teacher, had considerably less flexibility than he did.

00;01;15;29 - 00;01;29;02
Paul Sullivan
His coaching isn't aimed at making men better executives, necessarily. It's aimed at making them more engaged, more intentional fathers and husbands. Welcome, Jeff, to the Company Dads podcast.

00;01;29;05 - 00;01;31;07
Jeff Wickersham
Paul, thanks for having me. Excited to be here.

00;01;31;09 - 00;01;33;05
Paul Sullivan
Do you still have an Amex card?

00;01;33;08 - 00;01;34;21
Jeff Wickersham
I do, not anymore.

00;01;34;24 - 00;01;35;11
Paul Sullivan
Really?

00;01;35;13 - 00;01;42;10
Jeff Wickersham
No, I don't. I was I was forced to move out of the company, so, I do not have one anymore.

00;01;42;12 - 00;01;44;20
Paul Sullivan
You you just clipped it up, and you're like, screw them.

00;01;44;20 - 00;01;47;22
Jeff Wickersham
And I said, I'm moving on.

00;01;47;25 - 00;01;51;21
Paul Sullivan
Wow. So then what's your preferred card? Is it visa, Mastercard or it is.

00;01;51;21 - 00;01;52;20
Jeff Wickersham
It is visa.

00;01;52;22 - 00;02;19;27
Paul Sullivan
It is visa. I worked for a company years ago Bloomberg. Yep. 1999. And they gave us all Diner's Club cards. It's like even back in 1999, in New York City, you're like, what do I do with this? Right. I don't know. Let's talk big picture first. You know, you're really across this landscape here of sort of helping men be be their best and, you know, in a holistic way.

00;02;20;00 - 00;02;37;01
Paul Sullivan
What are some of the common challenges that you found that the dads, you know, face? I mean, one of the things you try to do here at, at the Company dads is bring us together, find things that, you know, unite us. You know, whatever we do for a living. What are some of the common challenges that you've found?

00;02;37;04 - 00;03;05;11
Jeff Wickersham
Yeah. Number one, I would say, is that they're struggling in quiet isolation, right? Where they're dealing with stuff. And I think inherently, we just think that it's only us that are dealing with these struggles or challenges. And then we think about what's wrong with me personally versus I always like to say I could grab a golf ball, tee it up and hit it and hit at least five houses where there would be dads that are dealing with something similar or in that same space.

00;03;05;12 - 00;03;11;00
Jeff Wickersham
So I think that's number one. Is this thought that, hey, it's something wrong with me necessarily, which.

00;03;11;03 - 00;03;26;18
Paul Sullivan
Why do you think that is? Well, you know, why do you think that is? Like, you know, if we we if we tore our Achilles, we once think, oh, I'm the only person who's ever torn his Achilles or ACL or something. They go to a bunch of other. Why is that? When it comes to sort of the media side of it, we think we're we're completely alone.

00;03;26;21 - 00;03;55;01
Jeff Wickersham
I think social media has something to do with it. Right? We see everybody's highlight reels all the time out there, and that probably gives us this perception of other people crushing it. And why am I not at that stage or at that point, or why am I dealing with the struggles? I would say that that would be a, you know, main factor where years ago we didn't have that kind of comparison theory that we could just pick up our phone and and see it whenever we wanted and at every drop of the, the day if we wanted to.

00;03;55;04 - 00;04;01;02
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. Okay. What else, what else? When you think about cut common challenges time right.

00;04;01;02 - 00;04;20;29
Jeff Wickersham
This this battle with time. I hear it all the time. I'm just too busy. And when I hear I'm too busy, it's like fingernails down a chalkboard. Because to me, that means you have zero control over your schedule and control over your life. And we all get the same 24 hours in a day. Paul, you get the same 24 hours in a day.

00;04;20;29 - 00;04;43;13
Jeff Wickersham
I have, but so many people just kind of throw up that white flag and just say, I'm too busy. Rather than taking a step back and being intentional with, okay, where do I plan my day out? How am I going to attack the things that truly matter? Yeah, and so much of our days are wasted doing things that truly don't light us up or truly don't, you know, add into our family dynamic.

00;04;43;16 - 00;05;04;02
Paul Sullivan
That simply, I don't say I'm too busy, but I say I wish I had more time. Like, I feel like I maximize the time that I have, and there's certain things that I, you know, prioritize. I mean, you can't be the founder of something called The Company of Dads and not being engaged, father, and not be, a great husband.

00;05;04;02 - 00;05;21;16
Paul Sullivan
And so it's very rare that my, my inbox gets down to zero and I am a zero inbox guy, I can't I my wife, my wife has like 47,000 unread. You know that. I'm like, oh my goodness, what do I want to just go and like just start deleting for that, for her to get them down to like 10,000.

00;05;21;19 - 00;05;35;08
Paul Sullivan
But yeah, I mean, that's it. I wish I could sort of sometimes clone myself, but that's not I don't know, is that what you're talking about? Are you talking more about men who can't, you know, prioritize and get things done?

00;05;35;11 - 00;05;58;16
Jeff Wickersham
Yeah, I would say more on the side of priority and get things done right. There's just there's no clear direction. You could ask them, what do you want? And they won't be able to define what they want. They can tell you what they don't want, but they haven't gone through that process of being intentional, defining who they're going to show up as a as a dad, as a husband, in work, in their energy capacity.

00;05;58;16 - 00;06;13;06
Jeff Wickersham
And so they're kind of left adrift on that raft in the ocean, and they're just going where the current takes a minute. Then then it's very it's very difficult to get things done and, and play actively in life.

00;06;13;08 - 00;06;17;21
Paul Sullivan
I mean, are they overwhelmed. Is it is it like sapping their energy? What what's going on?

00;06;17;24 - 00;06;37;28
Jeff Wickersham
Overwhelm is a huge, huge component, right where they once you start playing defense and you're on your heels. And I've coached, you know, I've coached my two sons in basketball, right? You're playing defense. Your knees are bent, your quads are burning. That's how so many people play from the moment the alarm clock goes off. Right. What what does 95% of people do?

00;06;37;28 - 00;06;55;26
Jeff Wickersham
The minute the alarm clock goes off, they check their phone. They check text, they check email, they get an activity in, and then you're playing that defense for the remainder of your day. So overwhelm, depression, being anxious, all those things are just huge components to to what dads are facing in these days.

00;06;55;28 - 00;07;15;07
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, I mean here here is the you know. Yeah. Look, I'm the guy who, when I talk to my therapist, at the end of it, I don't just say, oh, wow, I was great to sort of unload all these things. I say, what should I do? You know what? I give me 2 or 3 things to do under the assumption that, like some of the tech guys are you dealing with?

00;07;15;14 - 00;07;37;23
Paul Sullivan
I don't think I'm alone. I think that probably the things that I'm going through are very common, and that somebody is a trained therapist is probably heard this story hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times. So therefore he has some ideas as to what you should do. So when you, you know, when these men come to you and, you know, obviously them, you know, they're probably at a point where they need help or else they wouldn't be coming to you.

00;07;37;26 - 00;07;40;16
Paul Sullivan
Right? What do you do? How do you how do you help them?

00;07;40;18 - 00;07;58;12
Jeff Wickersham
Yeah. I love to focus on energy. Right. The energy you bring to each and every day. Many times. It's not time management. It's energy management. You bring a higher level of energy. You're going to get more done quicker. And I like to say you can then bend time to your will. How do I do that with men you control in your book ends right.

00;07;58;12 - 00;08;15;11
Jeff Wickersham
Dads control their book ends. What's that book and look like and book and look like. How do you prepare for a great night's sleep? So many people, dads especially, aren't intentional with how do I wind down? How do I shut away the work emails? How do I get family time? How do I have a digital sunset? And then how do I get a great night's sleep?

00;08;15;11 - 00;08;38;17
Jeff Wickersham
Sleep restores the body physically and mentally. Then when you wake up in the morning that Am book in, you're not checking your cell phone. You're not checking work emails, texts, no outside distractions. I like to say give me 1% of your day, which is 14 minutes 40s stack seven wins real quick. In that 1% of your day, you'll see all this progress, all this momentum.

00;08;38;19 - 00;08;54;15
Jeff Wickersham
I like to say it's jet fuel in your in your veins or your lighten yourself up physically, mentally, emotionally. You're connecting with your family. And that's how you can get some semblance of control in an otherwise chaotic world. So it's extremely powerful to dial in those bookends.

00;08;54;18 - 00;09;24;19
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, I like that. But, you know, we've talked a lot at the company dads about un linking, the bond between masculinity and money. Because that can be very pernicious. But there is a culture in our country of, of men bragging about how little sleep they, they get, you know, whenever your political party is both both Donald Trump and Bill Clinton, when they were presidents, both talked about, how little sleep they got, like under four hours a night and wore it as a, a badge of honor.

00;09;24;19 - 00;09;41;18
Paul Sullivan
You don't have anybody running for president saying, you know, I make sure I get, you know, an average sleep. And what do we do if there's a that sort of cultural headwind, that, that sort of links productivity with the least amount of sleep possible?

00;09;41;20 - 00;09;57;01
Jeff Wickersham
Yeah. I used to be in that camp. Right. I used to tell my late mother I'll sleep when I'm dead. Well, if I would have kept that lack of sleep going, I would be sooner rather than later. I mean, science is now said if you get less than seven hours of sleep, you're doubling your risk of cancer. Right?

00;09;57;01 - 00;10;24;21
Jeff Wickersham
So I use seven hours as the baseline, and I can feel the difference when I get a quality seven hours sleep versus if I have a difficult, challenging night's sleep and I get six hours and 15 minutes, I can physically and mentally feel the difference. What happens and what I would say a large portion of the population, what they're doing, they're drinking caffeinated drinks to wake up, to actually get some energy.

00;10;24;21 - 00;10;43;06
Jeff Wickersham
I mean, and caffeine doesn't give you energy. It actually just blocks these receptors in your brain that notify the body in the mind that you're tired. So you do that and it's just becomes a habit, right? Just like anything. And you just get so used to that lack of sleep. And unfortunately we don't have warning signs at all.

00;10;43;06 - 00;10;58;22
Jeff Wickersham
Just go off when things are going internally in our body. But over time, it just has a huge, huge impact. And I've doubled down all my sleep the past couple of years, and I've definitely known the the and felt the difference in, in my energy level.

00;10;58;24 - 00;11;21;00
Paul Sullivan
You know, I can imagine I mean, I'm just projecting here from my own experience, like, you know, everybody feels better when they get more sleep and you do it for a couple nights and then, okay, I can push it tonight. I can get, you know, less sleep. Or if you're trying to get those last couple of things done so that your mind isn't racing when you, you go to bed, it's a bit of a chicken in the egg.

00;11;21;00 - 00;11;42;04
Paul Sullivan
So yeah, for, for guys who are listening, what do you do if the natural inclination is to, you know, stay up another 15 minutes, another 30 minutes not to watch, you know, a game which is fine too. But but to try to get, you know, work done so you can be more productive the next day. But, you know, if you don't get enough sleep, that's going to, you know, chip into your productivity.

00;11;42;07 - 00;12;19;28
Jeff Wickersham
Yeah. I mean, I would say if you're doing that, you're severely impacting your quality of sleep, because if you're getting blue light, your melatonin production is dropping by probably more than 50% from some of the studies I've run. So your quality of sleep is poor. You might still get six and a half seven hours, but you're not getting that restorative sleep as well as getting away and having a clean break, especially for dads, because we're kind of I think we've been brought up to be financially, career driven and provider focused, but cutting off and making a clean break.

00;12;19;28 - 00;12;39;23
Jeff Wickersham
Okay, work is done. I'm transitioning from my career now. Dad and husband of the year, and I'm going to step into that role, step into that identity. It allows you to be so much more present, and then you have that ability to pour into your kids, you and your and your family, and have these micro moments that also, at the end of the day, the kids don't care about how much money you make.

00;12;39;23 - 00;12;58;07
Jeff Wickersham
They care about how present you are and how intentionally you pour into them. And you do good, you know, funny things and have these experiences and all of those pieces. So I, I really coach dads to make that clean break and get away from it and pour into your family because we only we only get 18 seasons with our with our kiddos.

00;12;58;10 - 00;13;26;01
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. How do you I mean, I could see this being, an easier conversation to have in a post. Covid is is so many people, so many companies are rethinking, how we work, where we work, when we work. Have you seen, people being more receptive to this than they might have been, and you started coaching in 2016 than they might have been pre-COVID, where not working, not answering emails late at night was seen as a lack of commitment to your to your job.

00;13;26;03 - 00;13;51;22
Jeff Wickersham
Absolutely. I would say people have rethought what's important to them. Right. We went through this huge event and it it had people question maybe they lost somebody that was close to them, right. That the past and may they had an opportunity to pause. And my son said when Covid first hit they were like time is standing still. And I said time still operating at the same pace.

00;13;51;25 - 00;14;10;01
Jeff Wickersham
It's that we got off the treadmill and all our habits and routines stopped on a dime. So we had to get all of these different things and we were we are changing. That's why time slowed down. So I think that gave everybody a pause and a time to reflect and say, what impact do I want to have and how do I want to spend my time?

00;14;10;01 - 00;14;25;18
Jeff Wickersham
Do I want to be answering emails late at night, when I could be spending quality time with my wife, or having a moment reading a book in bed to my son or daughter? I think people really, really thought hard about where their values are and where they want to be in the future.

00;14;25;21 - 00;14;40;16
Paul Sullivan
The guys that you work with, you know, what do they come in wanting to achieve? And, you know, obviously you can even highlight, but what have they achieved or what could they expect to achieve in in general.

00;14;40;19 - 00;15;07;14
Jeff Wickersham
It's number one is control, right? Controlling those bookends gives them some semblance of control throughout their days. And by dialing not in they feel all this positive energy coming through. So so that would be one. Number two would be intentionally pouring into their kids, giving these strategies and tactics and and Paul, we learn at the highest level in the warrior dad experience where we're not only learning, we're taking action, but then we're sharing it with our families.

00;15;07;14 - 00;15;27;02
Jeff Wickersham
And there's nothing like getting a picture from I remember Alex, who was in class two. He's got a glass of water, and his four kiddos under the age of seven are all holding up their glass of water, and they're all doing it together, right? And and that's family tree changing and generational changing when we can set them up with these tools, strategies and habits.

00;15;27;02 - 00;16;01;21
Jeff Wickersham
So controlling the bookends one. Consistency people lack that consistency day in and day out to do the small, mundane things. They're unsexy. They're not the grand slam walk off home run that everybody loves to hit, but they're truly the difference maker. And being disciplined, being accountable, being consistent and showing up the best version of yourself. So controlling the bookends, being consistent and then being around a brotherhood of other family focused, growth minded dads who want the best for their kids, want the best for themselves, best, and from their wives.

00;16;01;24 - 00;16;15;12
Jeff Wickersham
When you join a group in inherently raises your game because you don't want to look like the worst player in a group of of of dads. So you raise your game. And when everybody does that, it's amazing to, to watch.

00;16;15;15 - 00;16;27;09
Paul Sullivan
You talked about some, you know, small changes that, that you people make, not the walk up home run, but you know, the the singles even I guess the walk gets you on base. Give me an example of 3 or 4 of those that people can do.

00;16;27;12 - 00;16;32;15
Jeff Wickersham
Yeah. I mean, I drinking a glass of water first thing when you wake up. Longest stretch of the day.

00;16;32;17 - 00;16;36;24
Paul Sullivan
Yep. There you go. I got, I got I got two drinks my.

00;16;36;27 - 00;16;58;10
Jeff Wickersham
Longest stretch of the day, you know with that water when you sleep you're dehydrated. Your mind and your lungs are 80 plus percent water. So by drinking a full glass of water, you start that that wake up process. Right? Movement moving the body. We are physically made to move. Paul, you and I were just having a discussion prior to jumping on here about longevity.

00;16;58;12 - 00;17;17;02
Jeff Wickersham
We need to move. We need to stay in a shape. If we want to be 75, 80 and still hitting the golf course. That's a small, simple. And I I'm not saying you have to do a 45 minute hip workout. I'm saying just move for three minutes. That starts that process. Eventually you'll start to do more. But but make it so simple and easy, it's almost laughable.

00;17;17;02 - 00;17;42;09
Jeff Wickersham
So those two then write down something you're grateful for. Gratitude is such a powerful practice that we just don't get into. When you write down something you're grateful for one time over a ten week period, you increase your happiness level by 25%. Like, that's something so simple. Because what happens? We tune into what we're grateful for when we see more things we're grateful for.

00;17;42;09 - 00;18;00;16
Jeff Wickersham
It's like the, you know, buy the new car reticular activating system. All of a sudden you see all that that same car on the road, they were always there. Your mind just wasn't there to. So that's that's number three. Last one that's near and dear to my heart is connecting with your loved ones. I write my sons a wife, a note every single day.

00;18;00;18 - 00;18;24;23
Jeff Wickersham
Leave it outside their door. Post-it notes. My late mother, who passed from breast cancer about nine years ago. She used to write post-it notes. She had every different color post-it note in the world, but I'd leave my sons and wife a note. My youngest son has hundreds of them on his door. What a great token of our love as the leaders, as the dads to say, hey, I was thinking about you and I'm writing, you know, every single day.

00;18;24;23 - 00;18;31;29
Jeff Wickersham
So those are for the quick wins. You can stack in less than 15 minutes and it lights you up.

00;18;32;01 - 00;18;53;23
Paul Sullivan
I love that you have one last question for you. I want you to really define this because you talk about the warrior dad experience. And I can see some people may, hear that and be, totally inspired. And some people may misunderstand what it means, like, you know, I'm not a warrior, dad. I'm, you know, ride, ride the lawnmower.

00;18;53;25 - 00;18;59;20
Paul Sullivan
Walk the dog. Dad. What do you mean exactly? By the the warrior dad.

00;18;59;22 - 00;19;25;29
Jeff Wickersham
It's a mentality to fight for everything you want life. And it could be your kid's future. It could be giving them the strategies, tactics, tools that aren't taught in school, but that they need to have to have grit, embody resiliency, have this determination so they can thrive in life. It could be the warrior mentality to be in shape so you can live a long life.

00;19;25;29 - 00;19;59;04
Jeff Wickersham
It's it's getting into the fight and playing offense rather than defense. And I see unfortunately. So many dads are playing defense just punting everything. And they're they're stuck in this rut. They're there like we talked about earlier, that quiet isolation, despair, anxiety, depression, all those things. It's it's being on your toes and attacking life and having that energy and and understanding that like just our conversation today, what a gift that we get to get on zoom and and talk a little bit.

00;19;59;04 - 00;20;24;05
Jeff Wickersham
I mean that it gives me goosebumps when I just talk about it because it's so, so incredibly powerful when you can use that way. So warriors, that fight mentality and getting into it, knowing every day is not going to be easy. But it's not supposed to be. But when we can do it together, when we can continue to get off on our toes, when we can share our journey with our kids, we're going to be paying it forward for generations to come.

00;20;24;08 - 00;20;33;04
Paul Sullivan
Jeff Wickersham, founder of Morning Fire Coaching and leader of the Warriors D&D experience. Thanks for being my guest today unaccompanied as podcast.

00;20;33;07 - 00;20;35;28
Jeff Wickersham
Thanks, Paul. Appreciate it.

00;20;36;00 - 00;21;04;23
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to the company D&D podcast. I also want to thank the people who make this podcast and everything else that we do at the company of D&D, possible elder Mira, who is our audio producer, Lindsay Decker. And as all of our social media Terry Brennan, who's helping us with the newsletter and audience acquisition, Emily Servin, who is our web maestro, and of course, Evan Roosevelt, who is working side by side with me on many of the things that we do here at the company of D&D.

00;21;04;23 - 00;21;12;00
Paul Sullivan
It's a great team. And we're we're just trying to bring you the best in fatherhood. Remember, the one stop Shop for everything.

00;21;12;06 - 00;21;17;29

Is our newsletter. You can sign up at the Company of dads.com backslash the deck.

00;21;18;01 - 00;21;19;00
Paul Sullivan
Thank you again for listening.