EP100: What Have We Learned In Two Years at Work and at Home

Interview with Kristen Shockley / Our First Guest, Professor at Auburn / Work-Life Expert

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Welcome to our 100th Podcast! To celebrate, we're talking to Kristen Shockley, our first guest almost two years ago. We talked back then about her research during the pandemic and what led to harmony at home. (Spoiler: people who only worked and weren't involved with caregiving were less productive in their jobs.) Talking to her was a great way to kick off our weekly podcast where we strive to bring insights, stories, and even a bit of humor to the changing pre-pandemic dynamic at home, at work and in our communities. Listen to new thoughts and ideas on work and life from Kristen here.

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Transcript

00;00;05;22 - 00;00;24;08
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, silly, strange and sublime aspects of being a dad in a world where men were the go to parent aren't always accepted at work, among their friends or in the community for what they're doing. I'm your host, Paul Solomon. Our podcast is just one of the many things we produce each week at the Company of Dads.

00;00;24;09 - 00;00;57;23
Paul Sullivan
We have various features, including dad of the week. We have our community both online and in person. We have a new resource library for all fathers looking for answers to parenting questions. The one stop shop for all of this is our newsletter, The Dad. So sign up today at the company dads.com backslash the dad. Today is our 100th episode, the 100th episode of the Company of Dads podcast, and we decided to return to where we started by asking back our very first guest, Professor Kristen Shockley.

00;00;57;26 - 00;01;19;05
Paul Sullivan
She did some of the very first research, these research, and I saw into how the pandemic lockdown began to change our roles at work, at home, in our communities and with our families. I reached out to her at the end of 2021, after reading a story in The New York Times, where I wrote for 13 years that discussed her research on pandemic parenting.

00;01;19;07 - 00;01;36;06
Paul Sullivan
Her findings were eye opening. If you want to hear them all, go back and listen to episode one, she said. Today, she's a professor of management at Auburn University's Harvard School of Business. Welcome back, Kristin Shockley, to the Company of Dads podcast.

00;01;36;09 - 00;01;40;25
Kristen Shockley
Thank you so much for having me back. It's hard to believe it's 100 episodes. Congrats.

00;01;40;27 - 00;01;42;26
Paul Sullivan
I know. Thank you. So, you.

00;01;42;26 - 00;01;43;29
Kristen Shockley
Know, a lot of change.

00;01;43;29 - 00;02;03;23
Paul Sullivan
In the world. A lot has changed at the company of Dads. We're going to get into that. But perhaps the biggest change from when we first talked is that you were at the University of Georgia, Go Dogs, and now you're at one of its SEC rivals, Auburn. I mean, I married into the SEC. I know how these rivalries run deep.

00;02;03;23 - 00;02;11;12
Kristen Shockley
How did this how did this come about? Yeah, indeed. I mean, the SEC is the SEC West.

00;02;11;16 - 00;02;13;22
Paul Sullivan
Maybe that's okay. You at least crossed that line. So.

00;02;13;22 - 00;02;32;23
Kristen Shockley
Yeah, well they don't they say it's like one of the oldest rivalries. I don't know, it was when I was interviewing I was I had to get in this mindspace like, could I really come to this university that I've been taught from a young age to hate us? But the answer was yes. You know, Auburn is a is a great place with a lot of resources.

00;02;32;24 - 00;02;45;14
Kristen Shockley
So, I mean, from a psychology department to the business schools and a little bit of a shift in my career, and then to start in September. So, so far everything's been great. Although I have to say, I still root for the dogs.

00;02;45;17 - 00;02;56;18
Paul Sullivan
Sure. Now we'll keep that guy. But I have to ask, like, you know, I wonder what they thought, like, did you show up dressed all in, like, Georgia Red? And they were all in, like, auburn orange, and you kind of sat across from each other?

00;02;56;23 - 00;03;14;04
Kristen Shockley
Yeah. So it's pretty funny. This year you at Georgia played Auburn at Auburn. So I went to the game. But I'm thinking, okay, I can't show up to my department's tailgate wearing Georgia gear because that's just rude. But I can't bring myself to wear Auburn gear. So my mom so so I had her make me a split shirt.

00;03;14;04 - 00;03;18;15
Kristen Shockley
It was half auburn, half Georgia's. I said Aubrey jet or something like that.

00;03;18;18 - 00;03;21;18
Paul Sullivan
That's awesome. We got to get a photo of that. That is absolutely awesome.

00;03;21;23 - 00;03;23;06
Kristen Shockley
I'll send you it.

00;03;23;09 - 00;03;40;03
Paul Sullivan
So, you know, when we first spoke, there was one part of your research back then that really stuck out to me, and that was that when men and women were first, you know, both stuck, you know, working at home during during the lockdown part of the pandemic, women still did the bulk of the household work, even though they're both working.

00;03;40;03 - 00;03;58;04
Paul Sullivan
They both had responsibilities. Kids were in the in the house and not surprisingly, no shock here. This caused a lot of resentment since there was really nowhere to hide. You didn't have an excuse. You're like, oh, I have to run out now. Like, no, everyone is in in the house. And that was, you know, you even thought that, you know, self-preservation, human nature.

00;03;58;04 - 00;04;19;28
Paul Sullivan
You might have, adapted a bit more quickly in your research. You, in your work life scholar and your research, has that dynamic changed? Is it changing? You know, in, in certain groups above other groups, has there been any, any shift as to how, you know, the work at home part of life gets, gets divided up among, married working parents?

00;04;20;00 - 00;04;44;08
Kristen Shockley
So I can't say that I have my personally collected specific data to speak to this. I did a lot of research at the start of the pandemic and then had a baby and slow down, but, so I haven't been to new data on that specific question, but I can tell you kind of what I'm hearing from other stuff I've seen, is that I think that initial part, you know, we collected that data like two weeks in March.

00;04;44;09 - 00;05;08;03
Kristen Shockley
So it was like so new. I think that as time progressed, men did start to pick up a little bit more of the slack because you can only do it all for so long, right? That's not really a sustainable, situation. And I think what I, what I'm seeing now from more of like a lasting long impact is more just about the permanency of remote work.

00;05;08;05 - 00;05;25;14
Kristen Shockley
Yeah. Or many more people. I mean, obviously more people are back to work than they were at the start of the pandemic, but so many more people are now in remote work arrangements that are more permanent, or at least hybrid arrangements. And so there's more of a permanent mindset and thinking about how this affects the dynamics of couples at home.

00;05;25;14 - 00;05;41;05
Kristen Shockley
And that I think one of the big that it's remote work is the additional freedom it gives you to do tasks at home. And so, I do think we're seeing men pick up a little bit more of that because by virtue of just this is more permanent and they're now more likely to work remotely.

00;05;41;08 - 00;06;02;03
Paul Sullivan
You know, it is it's such an amazing shift, a tectonic shift that we could have never imagined in 2019. Was there a moment in the past three and a half years where that, you know, remote work, that hybrid option moved into, you know, sort of permanency, as you say, like, what was it, the second wave of the pandemic or what was it that that made people say, this is what I want?

00;06;02;03 - 00;06;03;24
Paul Sullivan
And companies acquiesce?

00;06;03;27 - 00;06;21;17
Kristen Shockley
Yeah, I mean, I think it was really, and it's such an interesting it's like this natural experiment that happened, we just so rarely have things like this. I mean, fortunately, because, you know, there's a lot of bad things out of the pandemic, but I think it took something like this to force companies to have to engage in remote work.

00;06;21;20 - 00;06;44;08
Kristen Shockley
And then I think the hybrid now is coming out of people saying, I mean, many people just refuse to go back. They just said like, no, I did this for two years. I can do this job remotely. Why do I need to come back all the time, full time? And it's kind of hard to argue with that. And plenty of companies were saying, hey, we'll use this as a recruitment piece if other companies aren't going to do it.

00;06;44;08 - 00;07;10;14
Kristen Shockley
And then I think the hybrid piece of it comes in because, you know, so remote can be pretty tough, from, like sense of connection at work to social isolation. So I think the best of both worlds is really kind of go in 1 or 2 days a week. So you get that connection piece, but then you have the time at home where the research suggests you actually get more done, you're more focused on work, but you also have a little bit of freedom to to do some of those home tasks that always need to be done.

00;07;10;16 - 00;07;32;07
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. If we made the assumption that, you know, you know, a good portion of the workforce, 20, 30, 40 good portion of the managers you serve become a manager, get some experience first, you know, 4050s, 60s when you see, you know, what are, you know, the positive parts of this for, for managers, remote work, hybrid work.

00;07;32;07 - 00;07;38;23
Paul Sullivan
And what are the challenging part for managers where, where they really started to push back.

00;07;38;25 - 00;07;59;03
Kristen Shockley
Yeah. And this is an interesting question. And shockingly, there's really not a ton of research on this because every time I talk to to people that are not academics, this is like one of the guidance they have is like, how do we manage people remotely? Like, I do have some data on this. We're working on a study right now, to try to speak to it, but there's shockingly little, like, evidence based stuff out there.

00;07;59;06 - 00;08;24;20
Kristen Shockley
But I think what I can say, in terms of the benefits, I think the big one is that it's that the recruitment and retention of people and particularly adding diversity to your workforce, both in terms of gender diversity, racial diversity, you've seen a lot of discussion of people that are not in the majority group saying they can feel more comfortable when they're able to work from home, like they can be more authentic self without having to go into work every day and people with disabilities.

00;08;24;23 - 00;08;48;11
Kristen Shockley
So I think, that's a real benefit is just opening up your talent pool. The the challenges though, are, I think the big sense that that sense of connection, the sense of belonging is. So to me, this is like the billion dollar question is how can you have a remote workforce and still have people feel that same commitment, that same connection at work?

00;08;48;13 - 00;08;55;27
Kristen Shockley
The stuff that we tried during the pandemic, like let's have a virtual happy hour, you know, let's get performance. Like they just don't work.

00;08;55;29 - 00;08;58;03
Paul Sullivan
No more drinking on zoom, no more drinking. And yeah.

00;08;58;04 - 00;09;17;18
Kristen Shockley
Like that, people were like, oh, this is cool for about three weeks. And then you know, it felt forced. Some companies try thing. There's this, app on slack called donut. Sure familiar with that, but it pairs people randomly in the company up. And so you'll have, like, Thursday afternoons reserved for 30 minutes for your donut meeting.

00;09;17;18 - 00;09;42;18
Kristen Shockley
And, so that's like a way that's trying to force, like, the run ins in the hall or you'll see people now, but you have these now scheduled random meet ups. But, you know, some people love those and some people hate those. I think it really depends on your, personality says like, that's not the answer. And, I'm doing some research, trying to figure out, but what are the kinds of things that actually work that can still take this connection?

00;09;42;18 - 00;10;00;02
Kristen Shockley
But as a manager, you know, I think that's a really tough thing to struggle with. We know that affects retention. So on the one hand, you can keep people in because you're offering flexibility. But on the other hand, if people don't feel any connection to their workplace, it's easy for them to say, I'm going to go check out the next company.

00;10;00;04 - 00;10;16;19
Paul Sullivan
I wonder, though, you know, not to get all Shakespeare in here, but managers protest too much. I mean, if we think about giant companies and I worked at the New York Times, I was, you know, largely we have three days a week. I'd be at home a day or two. I go into the office. It's an enormous company with headquarters in New York City.

00;10;16;19 - 00;10;39;00
Paul Sullivan
But it has, you know, bureaus in Atlanta and Chicago and Dallas and, you know, Los Angeles. And like most companies, you get many more people. If you were a KPMG or a Morgan Stanley, you have enormous offices around the country. And even within the building itself, you have, you know, hundreds if not thousands of people, you know, working there.

00;10;39;02 - 00;10;59;16
Paul Sullivan
And it's not like everybody knows everybody else, you know, the people in your group. And so this is where manager and I was saying like, how do we create, you know, unity, bonding, cohesion where nobody really worried about that before. And they just say, hey, it's the monthly, you know, happy hour. Let's go out and have, you know, fried cheese and beer.

00;10;59;19 - 00;11;16;16
Paul Sullivan
You know, when we really kind of step back and look at it, it is, you know, in particular in large companies is the remote work that or hybrid work at the very least, not fully, but hybrid work really that much more different when it comes to getting to know your colleagues and and bonding.

00;11;16;19 - 00;11;42;00
Kristen Shockley
Yeah. I mean I think what it's yeah, there's ten different animals to fully remote. I do think it is because, you know, as much as we want to think zoom can emulate this phase, it just doesn't, you know, it's just not the same. And you are missing those little informal interactions. Again, I just don't think you can emulate that, hybrid, you know, does I think kind of the best of both worlds because you are in person sometimes.

00;11;42;00 - 00;12;03;08
Kristen Shockley
But the problem is that unless you make it so people have to come in on a certain day, right? Then you might go in. And a lot of people say this like, why am I going back to work? I'm the only one that's in on Tuesdays. So this is just completely pointless. So I think there are some coordination about the days when people are in office and thinking strategically.

00;12;03;11 - 00;12;22;26
Kristen Shockley
The in office tasks should really be things like brainstorming or, you know, types of tasks that people are doing that need the benefit from face to face. And so you have to be really thoughtful. In an ideal hybrid world, you're very thoughtful in the scheduling and planning of what's done when people are face to face and trying to have their days overlap.

00;12;22;26 - 00;12;31;12
Kristen Shockley
But you bigger you get that gets way more complicated and takes away some freedom too. If you say you have to be in on Tuesdays and Wednesdays or whatever.

00;12;31;14 - 00;12;41;04
Paul Sullivan
So. So what you're saying is you and I shouldn't go into the same office, sit next to each other at desk and zoom with our colleague who's on the third floor. That's not a good use of our time.

00;12;41;06 - 00;12;42;26
Kristen Shockley
Yeah, probably not.

00;12;42;28 - 00;12;59;26
Paul Sullivan
You know, but some of the companies that I've talked to that have had the most success have some version of what you just sort of alluded to, and that's an anchor day. They say, like, okay, if you're in this division, you'll come in on Thursdays. And they've also sort of said, hey, you know, when you come in and it's just as you said, you're not going to be on zoom meetings all day long.

00;12;59;26 - 00;13;14;02
Paul Sullivan
You're going to do, you know, other work. Is there any argument against, a system like, like that for not just working parents, but for for caregivers in general and just humans? General?

00;13;14;04 - 00;13;27;09
Kristen Shockley
I haven't seen any arguments against it. Mine is just that. It's like I said, removing some of that benefit of flexibility. You know, it removes some of the choice. But if we're comparing it to you have to be on Thursdays versus you have to be in on every day.

00;13;27;14 - 00;13;29;22
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, right. Exactly. Like, come on, you know.

00;13;29;26 - 00;13;54;07
Kristen Shockley
A lot better. Yeah. I mean, there's nothing that I've read that really talks about. I think maybe one thing is people are probably going to get a little bit less work, like task oriented work done on those days, because they're going to spend some of the time socializing. But that's sort of part of it, right? You're you're building that and you're so you're recognizing that the socializing is an important aspect of work, too.

00;13;54;09 - 00;14;14;09
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. You know, we we read a lot about we hear a lot about the companies that are at the, the extremes. You have sort of on one end, you know, Allstate, the insurance company has gone, you know, pretty much all not all remote, but hugely remote, sort of, you know, went from like sort of 20% remote to 80% remote and CEOs really making it work.

00;14;14;12 - 00;14;39;05
Paul Sullivan
Talk to another, health care company called Virgin Pulse. The CEO there, as like he said, sees a benefit of being able to hire people all around the country, not just in Rhode Island where where they're based. And he's all in for it. But then on the other extreme, you have some of the financial services firms like JPMorgan and Goldman Sachs, who have kind of drawn a line in the sand saying, if you're everyone in five days a week, if you're above a certain, you know, level five days a week, that's that's the noise.

00;14;39;05 - 00;14;51;19
Paul Sullivan
What is the vast middle as the vast middle of companies, have they figured it out or are they just sort of muddling through? A little bit more quietly as they make sense of remote work?

00;14;51;21 - 00;15;10;14
Kristen Shockley
Yeah, my sense is it's the latter is they're just still really trying to figure it out. I mean, I've seen kind of like within this modeling two different strategies. One is that we try to get everyone to come back and there was just a huge revolt against it. So we were like, okay, never mind. We've got to give us some flexibility.

00;15;10;14 - 00;15;28;17
Kristen Shockley
And now we've seen what that's going to look like. And the other end has been more of like from the get go understanding, like, okay, we're going to allow some flexibility, but they're they're trying to figure out what that looks like. And like I said, what are the are they going to do something where they have the anchor day, or are they going to just say you have to be an X number of days?

00;15;28;17 - 00;15;33;12
Kristen Shockley
Are they not going to have any limits? And some of this is, is trial and error.

00;15;33;12 - 00;15;55;02
Paul Sullivan
I think you said, I mean, you know, a bit, when we talk the first time, you know, one of your findings from that very early, early research was that, you know, the companies that that event, that companies, the individuals who did the best, couples who did the best were some version of, you know, one parent, kind of being the lead parent doing, you know, a lot of work.

00;15;55;02 - 00;16;17;15
Paul Sullivan
But then having the other parent really being there to, to pick up, and, and do key things when that lead parent had to be on a call or needed a break. And that was from your research, as I remember, you know, the most successful option. And what always stood out to me in that research was the least successful option was, you know, one parent often the father just worked all the time and ignored things that were going on at home.

00;16;17;15 - 00;16;42;26
Paul Sullivan
And he wasn't really any more, productive, at work, which is great because it means that he wasn't a sociopath and he couldn't completely tune out his his family and loved ones. But when you see in this, this sort of hybrid, you know, world, potentially hybrid world or, you know, some of the advantages that, you know, a married had a married couple, you know, they can, you know, trade off the days that they are in the office and at home.

00;16;42;26 - 00;16;57;05
Paul Sullivan
So maybe you only have to pay for childcare one hour, 1 or 2 days a week, or what are some of the advantages when, you know, they kind of play you. And we all look at our calendars in place at a calendar Jenga. But what are the advantages? The way we've moved for, you know, the home life for for working parents?

00;16;57;07 - 00;17;06;16
Kristen Shockley
Yeah. I mean, I would caution against saying kind of using it as full time childcare just because, you know, as many of us do during the pandemic, it's pretty hard to get anything done when you're.

00;17;06;20 - 00;17;14;01
Paul Sullivan
No, no, I'm. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Like if you if your kids aren't in school, if they're not of a school age and there's not an afterschool program for it. Yeah. It's not going to work. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;17;14;04 - 00;17;40;26
Kristen Shockley
But we're I think I think it has a lot of benefits from, emergency situations with childcare. So, what I mean by that, like, if a kid is sick, oftentimes we have the default parent is the one that always stays home or figures it out, whatever they're going to do. But now when you have more flexibility with the hybrid days and if you're alternating, then I think it's a lot easier to say, okay, it's not it's not me as the mom or the dad is a deeper parent that's doing it.

00;17;40;26 - 00;18;00;20
Kristen Shockley
It's whoever's working from home today. And so I think in that sense, it's allowing for a little bit more of an even playing field, and helping to break up some of these gender roles. Absolutely. And it's also, again, I'm not saying that when people are working from home, they're spending a huge chunk of their time doing household tasks.

00;18;00;20 - 00;18;16;29
Kristen Shockley
But, you know, we we walk downstairs to take a ten minute break, we're going to switch out the laundry again just by if you're if you're able to have the hybrid and you're alternating it, I think it's naturally going to allow for these chores to be more evenly split. Amongst the people in the household.

00;18;17;01 - 00;18;36;07
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. You know, when we talked that the, the first time, your second child had just been born, you were working and remotely checked in with crazy time. But I remember you saying, yeah, that your husband worked in, in technology. When I think about, you know, dual income couples and how they can have how they can move and how they have flexibility.

00;18;36;09 - 00;18;53;15
Paul Sullivan
Do you think, you know, the the pandemic and the shifts that have happened in the world of work made it easier for you? As a, as a pressure to move from Georgia to Auburn, knowing that, you know, your husband wouldn't have to necessarily quit his job, that he could he could, you know, keep doing it the way he was doing it.

00;18;53;15 - 00;19;01;04
Paul Sullivan
Did that help in the sort of conversations within your family, around you kind of minimizing the disruption?

00;19;01;06 - 00;19;19;27
Kristen Shockley
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, had he he actually was working remotely before the pandemic, he was kind of in a unique situation where he, we we both lived in New York. And then I got the job, the University of Georgia, and moved down. And then we got married. So he was interviewing for jobs at that time because he decided to leave this company.

00;19;19;27 - 00;19;37;23
Kristen Shockley
And he he kind of got to the very end of the interview process and, and said, oh, by the way, my wife was in Georgia to work remote, which is a pretty bold thing to do. And that point fingers were for up. They're pretty bought into him. And so he had that leverage and and then I remember we would, we would think a lot about wow.

00;19;37;23 - 00;19;53;23
Kristen Shockley
Like noticing his job wasn't going well, but if it wasn't, he kind of felt stuck in it because it was so rare to have a he's the CTO of a high position that's remote at that time. And then the pandemic came and it was like, oh man, this opens up. There's a lot more jobs now that could be reversed.

00;19;53;23 - 00;20;09;19
Kristen Shockley
So I think in some ways it kind of put the power. He's still with that company, but it kind of put the power more in his hands for felt like he had more options. And then yes, definitely for me, the dual career consideration is a it's a huge issue for academics, especially when you're moving to these college towns.

00;20;09;19 - 00;20;26;21
Kristen Shockley
Like, I mean, Auburn, Alabama is not like the hub for technology. So, you know, being able to know that he could still work. Yeah, it was a non-factor. So really, it really, gives us a lot more opportunity with, with having the two kind of careers that we have for sure.

00;20;26;21 - 00;20;47;27
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, yeah. That's fantastic. It's been wonderful. Once again, last question, big question. You know, a lot of changes in the past three and a half years that few people could have imagined. Where are you as a professor? Doing research in school? Manager. What do you see? You know, work life and the balance in the shuffle.

00;20;47;27 - 00;21;07;25
Paul Sullivan
Where do you see that going in the future? If we, you know, at the two month, 200th episode, we come back and talk again and, you know, to two more years or five years, where do you see things shaking out between, you know, companies and workers and, and, you know, parents and caregivers?

00;21;07;27 - 00;21;38;26
Kristen Shockley
I mean, that's a great question. I can answer it in a couple different ways. You know, obviously, I think the the hybrid work is here to stay. So we're going to just continue to see people embracing that and really trying to understand how to make it work. I do think one thing, the pandemic did was forced companies to actually recognize that employees are people are parents, they have wives.

00;21;38;29 - 00;22;08;27
Kristen Shockley
And that not that the pandemic showed this because that was a really stressful time. But I think when you look at other research, people are fulfilled, fulfilled in all parts of their lives that they're better employees, they're better able to focus at work. And so I think and maybe this is wishful thinking, but my general sense is that organizations are starting a little bit to recognize that you have to let people have a life, to have them be good employees and to keep the best workforce.

00;22;08;27 - 00;22;38;23
Kristen Shockley
And so, I hope we continue to see well-being initiatives from the employees and or employers standpoint to go beyond just sort of like, lip service to it that are actually real things that help people make their lives manageable. And the recognition that, and what's, what's just crazy, I mean, take a step back is the way that work is still structured in our society is largely based on having somebody at home full time, you know, and that is just not the reality for most people.

00;22;38;23 - 00;22;49;02
Kristen Shockley
And I think the pandemic made companies face that and see, well, you know, most people have a lot going on. I mean, they actually physically saw it. Right. But people with kids running around.

00;22;49;02 - 00;22;51;08
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, yeah. Running in the background.

00;22;51;10 - 00;23;11;23
Kristen Shockley
During the zoom call. So, so I would say kind of that. And then the other thing from more of a, family side of things that I'm seeing a lot of focus on that I think is really important is what's this concept known as mental load? Are you familiar with that? Right. The idea that, you know, we think about division of labor and all the tasks need to be done.

00;23;11;23 - 00;23;31;03
Kristen Shockley
But there's all these things, the behind the scenes, the planning and the, you know, just tracking stuff in the household. And that really disproportionately falls on women. So thinking more about how can we make everyone more aware of that and help divide those tasks up more because they really do do take a toll when you're taking on that big part of family labor.

00;23;31;03 - 00;23;42;03
Kristen Shockley
And and just until the past few years that hadn't really been talked about at all. So that's something I'm personally excited about because I think that's really relevant. And under focused and excellent.

00;23;42;05 - 00;23;50;21
Paul Sullivan
Kirsten Shockley, guest one now, guest 100. Thank you for joining me again on the Company of Dads podcast.

00;23;50;23 - 00;23;54;02
Kristen Shockley
Thank you Paul, a pleasure.

00;23;54;05 - 00;24;12;00
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to another episode of the Company Dads podcast. Really appreciate you tuning in week after week, trying to use this moment here to thank the people that make it possible. Number one, of course, held a mirror who is our podcast editor. We also have Skip Terry home to many of you know from Lead Diaries.

00;24;12;00 - 00;24;35;02
Paul Sullivan
He's taken over our social media. Terry Brennan is helping us with our audience development. And Emily Serban is there, each and every day helping with the web development. And to any of this without, an amazing board, of advisors. So I just want to say thank you to all of you who help. And I want to say thank you to everyone who listens.

00;24;35;08 - 00;24;38;15

And, hopefully you'll tune in again next week. Thanks so much.