EP105: What Men Get From Parental Leave

Interview with Jason Abrams / Dad of Two on His Company's Leave

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Amtrak offers paid parental leave to mothers and fathers. Jason Abrams has taken his full allotment of leave twice now - a rarity among men. His exit from and return to work were seamless. It required some planning. Listen to lessons for other men undecided on taking parental leave.

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Transcript

00;00;05;22 - 00;00;27;29
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, silly, strange, and sublime aspects of being a lead dad in a world where men with a go to pack aren't always accepted at work, among their friends or in the community what they're doing. I'm your host. Also, our podcast is just one of the many things we produce each week at the company that we have various features, including the lead dad of the week.

00;00;28;00 - 00;00;51;01
Paul Sullivan
We have our community both online and in person. We have a new resource library for all fathers called, well, the lead dad library. The one stop shop for all of this is our newsletter, the that. So sign up today at the company of dads dot com, Backslash the dad. Today our guest is Jason Abrams. What he does isn't why he's on our podcast.

00;00;51;06 - 00;01;11;23
Paul Sullivan
He is a senior public relations manager at Amtrak, and I've known him for years since he worked at a PR agency, and I worked at the New York Times. Great guy. Good job. But the reason, Jason is on our podcast, The Why for us talking today is for what he's just completed. And that's the ten week parental leave for his second daughter.

00;01;11;26 - 00;01;36;28
Paul Sullivan
He took a similar, albeit slightly shorter, lead when his first daughter was born nearly five years ago. But this leave came at a time when the debate is heating up around equal leave for both moms and dads. Or, as some companies say, birthing and non birthing parent. And that's why we're going to talk about today one man's story and what others can learn from it.

00;01;37;00 - 00;01;39;29
Paul Sullivan
Welcome, Jason to the company podcast.

00;01;40;02 - 00;01;41;19
Jason Abrams
Happy to be here.

00;01;41;21 - 00;01;43;11
Paul Sullivan
Are you on an Amtrak train right now?

00;01;43;13 - 00;01;51;00
Jason Abrams
I am not on an Amtrak train right now. I wish I was, because the trains are great, and I always have a good time on them.

00;01;51;03 - 00;01;56;01
Paul Sullivan
Spoken like the senior PR manager at Amtrak. I love the trains are awesome. Everything about them is great.

00;01;56;04 - 00;02;01;14
Jason Abrams
Yeah, and look at these picturesque trees that you can't see anywhere else on the.

00;02;01;17 - 00;02;10;26
Paul Sullivan
I love it. Lay out the basics. Yeah. What was, what is the parental leave policy at Amtrak? How is it evolved over the years that that you've been there?

00;02;10;28 - 00;02;42;23
Jason Abrams
Yeah. So, the current policy for fathers is ten weeks, which I was able to take with my newborn Bryce. It has grown over the past couple of years. When my older one, that and, was born, like you said, a little over, a little under five years ago. I only had six weeks. So it really speaks volume to the company's commitment not only to its employees, but its belief in having happy employees who appreciate their families take time to spend with them.

00;02;42;26 - 00;03;01;25
Jason Abrams
And, you know, want to give people the bonding time with their kids or in some cases, it extends to, you know, caregiving leave and whatnot, too. And like the family element that we're all people at the end of the day to.

00;03;01;28 - 00;03;07;24
Paul Sullivan
And you got ten weeks as a dad. What what the moms get, what the birthing parents get at at Amtrak.

00;03;08;01 - 00;03;10;00
Jason Abrams
I'd have to double check on that and.

00;03;10;02 - 00;03;30;04
Paul Sullivan
Okay. All right. Fair enough. So talk to me about, you know, how go back to the most recent one, obviously fresh in your mind. But rewind for us. You know, what was the feeling like when you took this, that firstly, the six weeks off when your first daughter was born nearly five years ago. How did you prepare for it?

00;03;30;05 - 00;03;33;17
Paul Sullivan
How did you feel going out? What type of support did you get? Talk about that?

00;03;33;20 - 00;03;57;05
Jason Abrams
Yeah. So, it's kind of funny because my father, my father, you know, a older generation, older than you as well, you know, like, we're kind of in the same range. They didn't have leave at all, right? So they were able to maybe take a day or two, maybe a week, tops. And and they had to go back to work.

00;03;57;05 - 00;04;15;20
Jason Abrams
That's that's the way that things were. So, as it was kind of building up to it, my father, my father in law, my uncle, a whole bunch of other people were just like, wow, you're so lucky. I really wish I had that time myself. You know, I really hope you take advantage of it. You're going to have a great time.

00;04;15;22 - 00;04;34;28
Jason Abrams
So what I did and my wife said for both of our kids, is she did her leave first, and then I did mine after. And so it was actually helpful because I was able to see, especially for our first child, like, what she did, how she did it, you know, taking mental notes of what I can expect from mine.

00;04;34;28 - 00;04;53;20
Jason Abrams
So I wasn't just like, whoa, what do I do? How do I handle this, you know, whatnot. It also helps that, we kind of built up a schedule or an itinerary, so to speak, where it's like, okay, I know on Tuesdays at 11:00, I'm going to take her to the gym class. And this day, there's a library class and whatnot, too.

00;04;53;22 - 00;05;18;10
Jason Abrams
So having that that buffer where I was still working, was a big part of my leave and preparing for it as well. I had a great time. It's very sad to go back, to work, but, you know, that's like we have to work at it, and that's the way it is. And, you know, in the past almost five years, like I said, she's she's totally thrived.

00;05;18;11 - 00;05;35;26
Jason Abrams
You know, it's not like she needed me at home or my wife said, oh, like, this is what you do as parents, you know, whether it's going to college or going to daycare, like you take care of them and then you send them off in the world, and you hope that what you do as a parent and what you bring them, cultivates them and makes them a great person.

00;05;35;29 - 00;05;42;18
Paul Sullivan
You know, how is this, you know, most recently the ten week leave. How is it the same? How is it? How is it different from from the first one?

00;05;42;21 - 00;05;55;23
Jason Abrams
Yeah. It's funny because I feel like a lot of people with their second kid, at least what they say tend to be like a little more laissez faire or like, loosey goosey type of thing. Like.

00;05;55;26 - 00;05;59;21
Paul Sullivan
That's when you get to three and four, when you get to three, four and five and it's like that. They're fun.

00;05;59;23 - 00;06;20;17
Jason Abrams
Yeah. We were definitely a lot more schedule that regimented, even more so we're like, I couldn't do as much classes with my second as the one before. It was more like taking care of her sitting at home, but like, very, specific nap times and making sure that we're meeting those with those, you know, for her as well.

00;06;20;17 - 00;06;38;10
Jason Abrams
And it was like it also felt like a lot faster, even though the time is longer, like the days specifically where I was like, she nap, I'd wake up, I'd feed her. Next thing I know, she was 20 minutes away from her next nap. That it was like this. Was it the way it was with Matt and my older one?

00;06;38;11 - 00;07;02;03
Jason Abrams
So I don't know why it feels different, but it does. But there is also like an air of comfortability with it too. Like, I've done this before or I know what I'm doing, you know, like nothing's really going to scare me. Type deal. And having a longer time was great as well. You know, I remember saying this, with my first child, that.

00;07;02;03 - 00;07;27;21
Jason Abrams
Wow, I wish I had bonding time every year, and we do with vacations and. Yeah, but it's not the same as having six weeks or ten weeks consecutively, you know, without working. So you don't really have that time again as opposed to vacations or other time off. So, it's definitely really important to cherish it and take advantage of it, regardless of how long it is, because you will never have it again.

00;07;27;23 - 00;07;50;27
Paul Sullivan
You know, your leaves straddled. You know, the great divide in work in America. And that was the Covid pandemic. And so when you think about how you prepared and you went out on parental leave in 2018, when you either I was born versus how you went out, in 2023, what are the big differences in those two time periods for you?

00;07;50;28 - 00;07;52;15
Paul Sullivan
Take it. Parental leave?

00;07;52;17 - 00;08;20;04
Jason Abrams
Yeah. So in a lot of ways, they were very much the same, in terms of like, I knew that I needed to prepare. I was very lucky in the sense that I had a coworker in 2018 who took parental leave, for her daughter right before mine, her first daughter. So it's like I had a great paradigm to follow for how she did things, how she set up our entire team.

00;08;20;04 - 00;08;43;00
Jason Abrams
You know, in her case, specifically, I was for or at least half of her back up. So, like, you know, she was working with me to be like, these are the things you need to know. These are the people you have to talk to. Like, if something happens here, you go to their whatnot. And she created this, spreadsheet grid that was X number of rows and columns, along with every detail I could possibly need.

00;08;43;00 - 00;09;13;05
Jason Abrams
I was absolutely fantastic. So I had that help to essentially say like, I will copy and what that did. She was so great and so helpful. And this will be helpful to the rest of my team as well, that I was able to replicate that in 2023 as well. I mean, the grid was a little longer. Some names may have changed, some to really stay the same, but it was the same concept of like my team is and my boss especially is, you know, it is a company role.

00;09;13;05 - 00;09;36;25
Jason Abrams
But like you obviously want everyone who's covering for you to maintain or even in some cases, like exceed everything that you do and you can't let balls drop, you know, with the responsibility when you're leaving, even though you're available, like it's, you know, Amtrak takes its rules very seriously, as it should. And, and, like, legally, you can't do any work when you're on leave.

00;09;36;25 - 00;09;54;14
Jason Abrams
So, like, I need to make sure that everyone is covered and nobody feels like they have to reach out to me for that. So the level of preparation for my teammates, for my boss, for everyone within the company was very strong, and very similar both times.

00;09;54;17 - 00;10;09;01
Paul Sullivan
That's injury. So like a company policy, in essence, kept people from calling you up and saying, hey, Jason, just got one question. I hate you. And also, I guess kept you from saying, hey, let me just log on and see what's going on here. Is that correct? Look at that. You just couldn't do it. They shut you out.

00;10;09;01 - 00;10;11;06
Paul Sullivan
Enjoy your leave. See you in ten weeks.

00;10;11;08 - 00;10;33;28
Jason Abrams
Exactly. I mean, like, I have some of my colleagues personal numbers, and they'd messaged me like, hey, we missed you. Like, how's everything going? Like, I was so able to talk to them, you know, social media and from that vantage point as well. But yeah, absolutely. 100% respected. I knew that, going in my first time again, just based off the way that the company is structured.

00;10;34;01 - 00;10;42;04
Jason Abrams
And because that was validated after my leave, it, it gave us a sense of reassurance for the second time as well.

00;10;42;06 - 00;10;48;16
Paul Sullivan
So, like, you weren't even ever tempted to, like, wander into Penn Station and just kind of like, look around anything.

00;10;48;19 - 00;10;56;15
Jason Abrams
Well, we put in some new artworks. I wanted to see the new artwork that that went in when I was on leave, but I was able to see when I came back.

00;10;56;17 - 00;11;19;03
Paul Sullivan
You know, one of the things you outline, which is great, is sort of the logistics of leave. You manage everything. You had a model, you manage the logistics. People were left, you know, knowing what was going on. You know, fortunately, it worked well the first time. So you don't have to reinvent the wheel. The say that, but one of the issues that a lot of parents have, particularly men around leave, is the stigma, the stigma that a man is going to go out and leave.

00;11;19;03 - 00;11;34;28
Paul Sullivan
You're not the birthing parent. What do you need to leave? You know, and you hear all these stories. We hear him on the company dads all the time, kind of horrific stories of people returning from parental leave. This is how was your vacation? You know, I always joke like vacation has a cocktail with an umbrella in it. I don't think I had any cocktails with umbrellas in them when I was taking care of my kids.

00;11;34;28 - 00;11;54;22
Paul Sullivan
I might have had like, enough straight vodka or something like that, or scotch, but no umbrella. What was you know, when you think about the culture, and how the culture align behind you, feeling confident that, you know, not only should you take this, but you really could take this leave and not worry about the impact to your career.

00;11;54;28 - 00;11;59;27
Paul Sullivan
What were some of the cultural touchstones that did stick out, either the first or the second time?

00;12;00;02 - 00;12;18;21
Jason Abrams
Yeah, I remember a few times, you know, people would be like, oh, you're you're going to be begging to come back to work, you know, blah, blah, blah. I never, you know, like in the sense, like you'd be struggling so much. It would be so much more difficult than work. But I never got the sense like it was never.

00;12;18;21 - 00;12;39;07
Jason Abrams
It's not hard for me to be a caretaker for my child. Like to bond with them, like to manage the sleeping, to manage the the diaper changes, the tantrums, like all of that. No struggle whatsoever for me. That doesn't mean it's always easy, you know? But like, I was never like, oh my God, I can't take this anymore.

00;12;39;07 - 00;13;10;17
Jason Abrams
Like, I need to go back to work, right? It was never like that overwhelming for me. And yeah, I mean, that's that's gratifying to know, like I talked about earlier, I know some aspects of it is generationally, but, the company Amtrak itself as a company is, is very like I said, it's very important, like the way that it's set up to reward employees, like everything that we do.

00;13;10;17 - 00;13;27;17
Jason Abrams
And obviously I'm very close to the messaging in my role. But like, we always want to make sure we're talking about customers and employees, like employees are the heart of every company. It doesn't matter if you're on the PR side, doesn't matter if you're an engineer or conductor and board. It doesn't matter if you're an engineer, you know, working on construction of a new bridge.

00;13;27;18 - 00;13;52;18
Jason Abrams
Like everything that we do, it's our employees and our customers as well. And it's so gratifying and valuing as an employee to to see that message, that idea that culture is permanent, permeated throughout every department. You know, like we have these pillars within the company. One of them is do the right thing. And I never have to question that.

00;13;52;21 - 00;14;11;01
Jason Abrams
Our leadership, you know, my boss, my team like, doesn't do the right thing on a daily basis because that's at the heart that what we do. And it's one thing to say it, it's another thing to prove it. And I feel very validated based on my entire experiences there, including paternity leave, that it is.

00;14;11;04 - 00;14;21;02
Paul Sullivan
When you came back, the second time, how was the reentry? What was it like after being away for ten weeks and then, you know, okay, you're back.

00;14;21;04 - 00;14;50;20
Jason Abrams
Yeah. So it's funny because you talked about the the great divide and the difference between the before and after. At Amtrak, we kind of have a before and after, too, with the, I admire the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act. And that gave our, our company essentially $66 billion to improve rail infrastructure stations, fleet as well. 22 technically go same track and 44 goes to the center administration just to get a little more into the weeds.

00;14;50;20 - 00;15;23;18
Jason Abrams
But, it's a generational impact not only to Amtrak as a company, but the American rail system. So that happened, a year ago, a little over a year ago. And so coming back in 2018 was a lot there was a lot to do, but it was easy to pick up from where it left off. And because we've got this generational investments, that have come to us, and even more so with that, like there was just some grants awarded to us.

00;15;23;18 - 00;15;51;19
Jason Abrams
It was like right back ramping up like super fast this time around because we had events about, that's internal project, which is that tunnel that goes between new Jersey and New York that we're going to be building one of the most urgent infrastructure investments in the entire country. And that like that. I came back on a Monday, that Friday, it was Senator Schumer, Governor Hochul, Secretary Buttigieg, our board chair.

00;15;51;21 - 00;16;15;27
Jason Abrams
All in this event like that, I, you know, had to to help staff and manage and what, to so it was like right back into the swing of things. I had no choice. And then there was a similar event in your home state and in Connecticut and in Medford. We just did a similar project, a similar event for the Hudson Tunnel project for some of the new Jersey side.

00;16;15;29 - 00;16;35;27
Jason Abrams
In North Bergen, new Jersey. And, yeah, we opened in Penn Station. Going back to that, we opened the new entrance on Seventh Avenue and 32nd. So like as soon as I came back, it was like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, right. And all these projects that either were starting or finished and all these events, that needed to be managed around them.

00;16;35;27 - 00;16;54;04
Jason Abrams
So it was like as opposed to the first time, the second time it was just ride back into the swing of things, which I prefer because it kind of, for lack of a better word, helped me get back into shape faster, you know, like knowing like, this is happening and I have to do all this. And it was a lot at once.

00;16;54;04 - 00;17;03;17
Jason Abrams
But you know that that's what we do. And this is, like I said, a generational opportunity and investment. So, it's all good stuff.

00;17;03;20 - 00;17;19;27
Paul Sullivan
It's hot. Did hybrid work make it differently? You know, the option to work? I don't know how many days a week here to work remotely, but did that, did that, did that impact the return from parental leave this time versus 2018, when I guess there was no hybrid work?

00;17;20;00 - 00;17;39;06
Jason Abrams
I, I wouldn't say so. I mean, so my team is spread over across the country. I'm the only one of my department in New York. So even when work from home started like it wasn't that different for me, I might say there's in New York that I, I stay connected to all the time, but it didn't really make a difference for me either way.

00;17;39;09 - 00;17;49;28
Paul Sullivan
But what about the flexibility, ability to sort of work a couple days from your home versus every day in the office? Did that help or hurt in any way with your return after parental leave?

00;17;50;01 - 00;18;13;05
Jason Abrams
I'm going to say it had an impact. The only really thing I could think of is because I get to be home just in general, like, and it's easier for me to do daycare pick up. But that's really the only thing I drop off. But I wouldn't say that's anything specific to, work from home or paternity leave in general.

00;18;13;08 - 00;18;31;18
Paul Sullivan
You know, now that you're, you're, you know, two kids in, we're actually rooting for three. Is it the company dads? You know, that's our magic number. But when you think about how you and your wife and or your wife's an attorney, how you trade off responsibilities and how, you know, your dad, how you step up and do certain things to help her.

00;18;31;18 - 00;18;48;04
Paul Sullivan
She she's got a big career or to, how has that evolved over the years? And one of the things when you think about like, okay, I'm really proud of this or I figure this out or, you know, five years ago I really screwed this up, but I'm not going to do that again. Now, what are some of the things that stick out relationship wise?

00;18;48;06 - 00;19;09;29
Jason Abrams
Yeah, I mean, we make a great team and we know what each other's strengths are and we know what each other's weaknesses are. So we're able to, Adjust and work within each other for each one of those times when it's not. She made a joke a few weeks ago. Although there, you know, like, every joke, there's some truth to it.

00;19;09;29 - 00;19;33;05
Jason Abrams
It's like you, as in me, do all of the easy tasks that don't require, like, a lot of thought, but like, it's like the heavy lifting, right? Like you get up, you cook meals, you, you know, bring them places, you're able to do this and that and whatnot, like all great stuff. So appreciative of it. But like, I have to do the things that involve like the thinking, right.

00;19;33;05 - 00;19;58;26
Jason Abrams
Like the invitations to filling out forms, the setting up appointments to play dates. What, like even if you take her to a doctor's appointment or, you know, take her to a play date or whatever, like I'm the one who coordinates that, and there's no animosity between who does what, because as long as we both get the job done and, you know, our kids are happy and we're both happy, that's that's really the only thing that matters.

00;19;58;28 - 00;20;20;12
Jason Abrams
You know, to us, we're both very easy going, low maintenance way back to people. So it helps us as a couple. And like, even before kids, like, know what the other person needs intuitively and how we can best be a partner for each other based off of that.

00;20;20;15 - 00;20;35;14
Paul Sullivan
Come on, tell the truth, Jason. After she said that about you, just get up. You make breakfast. Tell the truth. When your daughter came in that the following Saturday at 545 in the morning, you made your wife get up at your daughter, didn't you? What? Come on, show her. It's not all that easy to get up that early.

00;20;35;19 - 00;20;53;12
Jason Abrams
No, I mean, she knows, she knows. And she's grateful and appreciative. Just like I'm grateful that appreciative for her picking out every Hanukkah gifts that the kids are going to get, you know, and so ask me my opinion on some like which do you prefer? But that's all her story. I'm not I'm not I'm not going to sell around.

00;20;53;12 - 00;20;55;06
Jason Abrams
I mean, there's no reason to sell. You're not going.

00;20;55;06 - 00;21;11;03
Paul Sullivan
To sell her. I you know, I've been a dad now for over 14 years, and I, I can probably count on one hand when I've slept and maybe two hands I slept in on a Saturday. It's just a stick. It just works better. And I don't mind. And I love it. I love that, you know, kind of that one on one time now, two on one, two.

00;21;11;05 - 00;21;35;16
Paul Sullivan
It's fantastic. But, you know, you and I met when you're at a big, PR agency, you've obviously worked with, scores and scores and scores of companies out there, you know, you love Amtrak and a good policy. They're doing right by you. But when you think about what some of your male friends who are becoming dads with their going through with their companies and their parental leave, what are some of the differences that stick out?

00;21;35;16 - 00;21;41;15
Paul Sullivan
You know, the leave they get if they get it versus, you know, what you've been able to have, twice now.

00;21;41;18 - 00;22;05;14
Jason Abrams
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I feel like a lot of my friends, when they take leave, a lot of them either say, I don't know if I'm going to take all of it or a lot of them or staggered out instead of do it straight. I did mine straight as opposed to out, which I obviously feel is the best way to do it.

00;22;05;16 - 00;22;28;16
Jason Abrams
And I get so confused why they would take it all. Like we've all got jobs involved and responsibilities like we've all got, like a personal connection and desire to do well at work and, you know, not want to let people down and 1 or 2. But as I said earlier, like, you'll never get this time again.

00;22;28;19 - 00;22;58;25
Jason Abrams
And if it's being offered to you and as long as it's not like a fake offer, so to speak, like you're doing, I don't want to say like a disservice by not taking it. You know, you're like, your kid's not going to be, impacted either way. Like they're not going to remember the time, but like, I want to, as a friend or even as if it was someone I didn't know, like, I would I wouldn't want you to look back, and regret it and not be like, I wish I took more time, right?

00;22;58;25 - 00;23;06;04
Jason Abrams
Because I don't feel like you would ever feel I took too much time.

00;23;06;06 - 00;23;12;19
Paul Sullivan
That's fantastic. Jason Abrams, thank you for being my guest today on the Company of Dads podcast.

00;23;12;21 - 00;23;14;29
Jason Abrams
From thanks for having me.

00;23;15;01 - 00;23;43;22
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to the Company Dads podcast. I also want to thank the people who make this podcast and everything else that we do. The company dads possible. Helder Moura, who is our audio producer Lindsay Decker, handles all of our social media. Terry Brennan, who's helping us with the newsletter and audience acquisition. Emily Servin, who is our web maestro, and of course, Evan Roosevelt, who is working side by side with me on many of the things that we do here at The Company of Dads.

00;23;43;22 - 00;23;58;01
Paul Sullivan
It's a great team. And we're, we're just trying to bring you the best in fatherhood. Remember, the one stop shop for everything is our newsletter, the dad sign up at the Company of dads.com backslash. The dad. Thank you again for listening.