EP106: Let's Talk About Making Care Better In America

Interview with Katherine Goldstein / Community Leader, Care Fellow

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Not to be cute, but how much does America care about care? We talk about it. We stress about it. We know we need it. But what steps can we take to bring about action? Katherine knows from researching and writing "A Playbook to Transform How America Cares" Listen to what she learned and we can do.

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Transcript

00;00;05;13 - 00;00;24;21
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, silly, strange and sublime aspects of being lead dad in a world where men or the go to parent aren't always accepted at work among their friends and the community for what they're doing. I'm your host, Paul Sullivan. Our podcast is just one of the many things we produce each week at the Company of Dad.

00;00;24;22 - 00;00;51;18
Paul Sullivan
We have various features, including the leader of the week. We have our community online and in person. We have a new resource library for all fathers for the lead dad library, the one stop shop to learn about all of this is our newsletter, The Dad. So sign up today at the Company of dads.com. Backslash the dad. Today our guest is Katherine Goldstein, founder of The Double Shift, a community for people who care about care.

00;00;51;20 - 00;01;13;21
Paul Sullivan
She's also care reporting fellow for the Better Life Lab at New America. Specifically, she wrote a report entitled A Playbook to Transform How America Cares. The Care Movement Winning Tactics, Lessons, and Case Studies from the Pandemic ERA and beyond. And that's why we're here talking today. Kathryn, welcome to the Company Dads podcast.

00;01;13;23 - 00;01;15;19
Katherine Goldstein
Thanks so much for having me.

00;01;15;22 - 00;01;30;23
Paul Sullivan
Here we jump into the report. Tell the listeners you may not know about the double shift. I'm a huge fan, as you know, but tell the listeners what you're building with the Double Shift newsletter and the community that's come together around it.

00;01;30;26 - 00;02;07;22
Katherine Goldstein
Yes. So, the Double Shift began in 2019 as a podcast, telling stories on unexpected or, stories people hadn't heard before, really, around the experience of working moms. Although I no longer use the term working moms, I say employed moms because I think every parent works. And, it has evolved now, the podcast I it's not in production, anymore, but has evolved into a weekly newsletter and community that really focuses on the forces that shape family life in America.

00;02;07;23 - 00;02;31;14
Katherine Goldstein
And I, this year have been writing about a wide range of topics. I've been thinking a lot about community building. I've been surprising my self by writing about organized religion. I've been, thinking a lot about what the care movement is and what it could be. So very wide ranging stuff that isn't your typical tips and tricks aimed at parents.

00;02;31;17 - 00;02;35;25
Katherine Goldstein
And we have a member community and monthly hangouts and other ways for people to connect.

00;02;35;27 - 00;02;54;05
Paul Sullivan
I love it, and as you know, you know what we're doing in the company. Dad's language is very important. We talk about but lead that would describe the dads as a go to parent, whether they work full time, part time, or devote all their time to their families. And that last category, I just got off the phone, before our podcast of the fella who's just opted to become what he calls a stay at home dad.

00;02;54;05 - 00;03;13;16
Paul Sullivan
And I stopped him right there, and I said, you're not a stay at home dad. You know, no parent stays at home. Parents may wish they would stay at home. Your dad devotes all of his time to his children. I am so excited. Talk about this report. But a playbook to transform how America cares. How did this project come about?

00;03;13;16 - 00;03;19;18
Paul Sullivan
Take us back in time. I know you worked on it for quite for the better part of a year, but how did it all start?

00;03;19;21 - 00;03;50;12
Katherine Goldstein
So, it started with some conversations between me and Bridget Schultz, who's the director of the Better Life Lab, which is a really cool think tank, that focuses on care and work life justice and transforming work culture, really great topics. And together we kind of brainstormed that. We wanted to explore ideas around, you know, what we what our society is taking away from the pandemic now that we are nearly four years from the start.

00;03;50;14 - 00;04;17;09
Katherine Goldstein
What what we're taking away, and what lessons that, larger care movement has learned from it, because I think that even the idea that there's a movement of people working to transform care is sort of a new idea. And we wanted to focus on concrete tactics and real world solutions, not beautiful policy ideas that we could dream up and would be amazing and tell you all about it and how it and basically would never happen.

00;04;17;09 - 00;04;33;00
Katherine Goldstein
But what are the things that are happening in the at the local level, at the state level and community levels in activist circles that are transforming our our care world? And how can we elevate those lessons and learn from them and replicate them throughout the country?

00;04;33;02 - 00;04;50;12
Paul Sullivan
You know, I wanted to drill down and talk a bit more about the tactics, because I love that part of the subtitle, you know, Winning Tactics from the pandemic era and beyond. I'm pretty sure you know, my one winning tactic from 2020 was learning how to mix up a really fantastic margarita at. And, I put in a lot of work.

00;04;50;12 - 00;04;53;27
Paul Sullivan
Catherine. It was night after night and night. You know, nobody likes a quitter. I just add it.

00;04;54;04 - 00;04;56;12
Katherine Goldstein
I mean, you're you're definitely.

00;04;56;13 - 00;05;10;13
Paul Sullivan
Exactly. I'm going to guess that's not what you were going for. Maybe there is a little bit, you know, the perfect at home cocktail when you get to. What are some of the tactics, that you found that, you know, that the listeners can say, okay, I could do that, or, jeez, I wish I had done that, or maybe I shouldn't do that.

00;05;10;13 - 00;05;19;11
Paul Sullivan
What are some of the big tactics that that stood out for you as, as being particularly, you know, effective for, for caregivers trying to figure this stuff out?

00;05;19;13 - 00;05;56;17
Katherine Goldstein
Yeah. Well, so, you know, I was looking really at the systemic level and there is definitely takeaways for individual care consumers and people who give care and paid and unpaid capacities. But the tactics were kind of like, how can we think about this from a larger movement perspective? And so, you know, when it's there are eight tactics, and, and they run the gamut of things like power building in communities and union organizing for care workers, which is not something I knew a lot about, which is, I think, a really interesting, important part of the care movement.

00;05;56;20 - 00;06;18;08
Katherine Goldstein
And then things like how, how we use political money to influence political outcomes and how we can what are effective messages, what are the language that we can learn and say to sort of advance a care narrative? And what are the images we see on TV, and how is culture changing around especially? I actually have a whole section about dads.

00;06;18;08 - 00;06;36;21
Katherine Goldstein
I focus, I write a lot about millennial dads as a harbinger of culture change. And so those are all just really, so both what we're seeing and then also some takeaways about how people can get, think about these from a company perspective, a personal perspective and a community perspective.

00;06;36;23 - 00;06;58;20
Paul Sullivan
You know, one of the things that stood out I wasn't sure is probably in the report, but I remember reading it in your newsletter, and that was the the massive imbalance in lobbying dollars. You know, if you were, you know, the Chamber of Commerce had got, you know, $100 million or whatever the number was. And if you're, you know, the top, caregiving lobbying organization, you barely had $1 million and it dropped off from there.

00;06;58;22 - 00;07;13;11
Paul Sullivan
I mean, that's it's it's hard to overcome big money. But what were some of the strategies that you were able to you know, reveal that these, these organizations were able to do to have an impact with such a comparatively, limited budget?

00;07;13;14 - 00;07;38;09
Katherine Goldstein
Yeah. Well, I think we haven't seen the change. We need at the federal level. And part of and Build Back Better failed, which had really comprehensive social policy that would have transformed so much of how we care for people in America. And part of that was because there's not a political machine behind care in the same way there has been even behind some other causes like, the environmental movement, other lobbying groups.

00;07;38;12 - 00;08;09;00
Katherine Goldstein
And so, you know, what I found that was so encouraging, really, was the movement we're seeing at the state, state and local levels. There's all sorts of ballot initiatives and passing different policies at the state, state levels that I think are creating momentum for these larger policies. So, you know, in terms of, in terms of how how we should when big large scale federal change, I think we have to be investing in that.

00;08;09;00 - 00;08;32;05
Katherine Goldstein
Now. It can't just be like, oh, it looks like there's a good, the makeup of Congress have changed. And now we're going to get it like that. That power has to be built over time. That lobbying money has to be built over time. And I think, I'm, I'm hopeful and we're, I think we're going to see in the 2024 election, there will be billions and billions of dollars spent on that election.

00;08;32;05 - 00;08;40;25
Katherine Goldstein
And I think more of it, than ever before will be going to around care related lobbying and advertising and pushing care issues.

00;08;40;27 - 00;08;57;18
Paul Sullivan
If we kind of pull the carrot back a bit. You know, when we talk about care, I want to make sure listeners realize care is not just child care. Child care is one part of it. Care is, elder care, caring for a spouse. And as I look at I think about this, I mean, every one of us may not all be parents.

00;08;57;19 - 00;09;20;22
Paul Sullivan
I'll be, you know, but every one of us will be the caregiver at some point. So what do you think has held back caregivers from organizing the way? I don't know, the I IRP has done with with retired people that people are over a certain age, what is held back, the caregiving movement from having the impact that you think it would, could, should have.

00;09;20;24 - 00;09;52;11
Katherine Goldstein
Well, it's interesting because the AARP, I think, actually is aligned in many of these caregiving ideas. But in terms of how I think, parents of young children have not been well organized and have not joined, a larger care movement, I think has a lot to do with time pressures, social expectations around the individual needs of children, rather than sort of how we can devote to larger social change and community building.

00;09;52;14 - 00;10;13;28
Katherine Goldstein
And I think, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that parents have in common, but we are also easily divided by race, class, geography around what is best for our kids and families. And so this has been a group that has been somewhat hard to organize politically, but it's not it's not harder than a lot of other groups.

00;10;13;28 - 00;10;38;06
Katherine Goldstein
It's not harder than domestic workers. It's not harder than farmworkers. So the idea that it's too hard, I reject. But I do think there's more interest in, in politically galvanizing parents, hopefully in my from my political perspective around, you know, positive change for all children and not, you know, just banning books or other things that parents seem animated about, about certain parts of the country.

00;10;38;09 - 00;11;09;09
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. And obviously, you know, we're focus here on on fathers and families and children, that we don't care about old people, but, you know. Yeah. Not but I know you're still in, you know, the sort of that that pre five year old, stage and I have just finally, passed it with my youngest, who is now six, my girls, six, 11 and 14, but that, you know, three month to five year period is brutal or and expensive and all that.

00;11;09;09 - 00;11;27;27
Paul Sullivan
You know, we talk about all the wonderful things about kids and, you know, we can all agree on that. But just from a logistics point of view, from a cost point of view and it affects everyone. I mean, 83% of married heterosexual couples in America, both people work. And so both people are working that means they need to find somebody to help care for their kids.

00;11;28;04 - 00;11;41;21
Paul Sullivan
Why? You know what? What have you seen, in that age bracket, particularly the three month to to five year old where there's there's hope. Are there certain states that are doing it well as in policies that are particularly positive?

00;11;41;23 - 00;12;13;27
Katherine Goldstein
Yeah. So one of the things that it's been really exciting is to learn about ballot initiative. So not all states have ballot initiatives, but many do. And when people run, well, run campaigns, especially around, children's issues for children, we see really positive voters want to vote for this. Voters are willing to raise their own taxes, even in red states, for, funding and policies that support young children.

00;12;13;29 - 00;12;44;03
Katherine Goldstein
There is an amazing, constitutional amendment that passed in New Mexico that, has allowed basically has written in and access to universal child care into their constitution. And there you have a unique funding mechanism through this oil reserve fund, that they are funding it through, Portland, Multnomah County, which is Portland, Oregon, is part of put a basically a millionaires tax in.

00;12;44;03 - 00;13;05;00
Katherine Goldstein
They voted for a millionaires tax for a universal pre-K, program that now is collecting over $200 million a year. So, there are a lot of opportunities for that kind of funding. I think those are some of the easiest ones to explain to voters in our, people are having the most success with, but they're smaller places.

00;13;05;02 - 00;13;28;02
Katherine Goldstein
There's other voter, ballot initiatives that support funding for birth to age five and other kinds of programs that aren't just specifically, you know, pre-K, etc.. So, I'm when you the thing is, is that these aren't really partizan issues. When you ask people, you know, over 80% of people support, you know, child care support, it's not really a red blue issue.

00;13;28;02 - 00;13;37;06
Katherine Goldstein
This is popular in red and blue states. It's really the politicians that are the problem. When we put it directly to voters. Like people are happy to vote for it and they're happy to pay for it.

00;13;37;09 - 00;13;55;24
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. There was a couple, a couple months ago, Senator Kennedy from Louisiana, not to be confused with any of the senators from Massachusetts. He's about as conservative as you can be, as red as red could be. And he compared these issues to, golden retrievers. And essentially, he said it was an artful way of saying everybody loves the golden retriever, which is, of course, true.

00;13;55;24 - 00;14;16;15
Paul Sullivan
Like, who doesn't love a golden retriever or lab? And that's, you know, and he's a deeply conservative person. But he said, look, we can agree on this. When you think about there is this consensus, as you said, 80% yet. There is something that's holding people back because, 100% of states have, children in them, who are under the age of five.

00;14;16;15 - 00;14;38;01
Paul Sullivan
So there is, you know, this is not, a specific issue, specific any states where there are subsidies going to companies, to private companies for them to sort of step up and do something for them to offer some sort of benefits and perhaps get a break on their corporate taxes for, for their employees and hang in there.

00;14;38;03 - 00;15;00;20
Katherine Goldstein
Yeah. So, there are a couple of states I know Michigan is one. I believe they're piloting one in my home state of North Carolina called a tri share program, which is the child care program where, the government pays a third, companies pay a third, and the consumer pays a third. And so they are they're piloting kind of these public, some public private partnerships.

00;15;00;20 - 00;15;31;14
Katherine Goldstein
Definitely. There's experimentation around that. And I think we're in a situation with childcare where we need every experiment, we need every pilot, we need every solution. I think, you know, the consensus among, experts is that for a real transformation of the childcare system, we need some big federal investment. This can't really be solved by the private sector or just at the state level, but certainly there can be some really big, positive developments can be made in those areas.

00;15;31;14 - 00;15;43;11
Katherine Goldstein
So, yes, tri share is definitely around. And a it's a good it's a good model for getting for seeing. Yes. That's a problem that affects everyone, not just, you know, parents.

00;15;43;13 - 00;15;54;12
Paul Sullivan
You know I've been asked that question. Does it lean toward hopefully positive answers. But through, you know, all your research and writing this, what were some of the really dispiriting things that you found?

00;15;54;14 - 00;16;20;12
Katherine Goldstein
I mean, one of the things that I liked about this report was that I got to really focus on a lot of solutions. And, and hopeful things in general, because that doesn't isn't how our world feels most of the time. And so saying, hey, you know, this is how this is why this county that went, voted, you know, 57% for Trump just passed, you know, passed a children's initiative.

00;16;20;12 - 00;16;51;18
Katherine Goldstein
Like, this is cool. This is exciting that there are places where, you know, people really care about care. I think that the thing that is, is dispiriting. Is it dispiriting for me about this is probably the money and politics element that, this movement is so important. It impacts so many people. But part of it is that we have not it has not been politically, resourced to make positive change.

00;16;51;21 - 00;17;11;28
Katherine Goldstein
And then also, I think you know, another, another part of it, which I think is really important, is that the reason that we don't have these policies, the reason that Build Back Better failed, which would have transformed, and our care economy, is basically because people large companies, large and powerful companies don't want to pay more in corporate taxes.

00;17;11;28 - 00;17;35;27
Katherine Goldstein
And they are very powerful. And I think we need to name that. That is the reason. Like we can't have nice things. And it's not about necessarily and they are have a huge political influence. And so it's not that people disagree about it. And, you know, I feel like we we need more things in America where people agree on and we can feel good about making people's lives better, not just preventing catastrophe.

00;17;35;27 - 00;17;52;01
Katherine Goldstein
And I feel like care is just such a winning issue in that way. And it's frustrating to see. I mean, it's just the classic story of it's basically like villainous corporate behavior. So, you know, I'm all for calling that out in 2024 and beyond.

00;17;52;04 - 00;18;08;10
Paul Sullivan
You know, you talked about, you know, you can't come on the Company Desk podcast and let's not talk about days you talked about the hopefulness among millennial fathers. Yeah. Continue to talk to me a bit about why you're hopeful that millennial fathers might be better than, I don't know, baby boomer dad.

00;18;08;12 - 00;18;35;06
Katherine Goldstein
Well, I, I, I think millennial dads are some of the most important harbingers of culture change around caregiving and valuing care that I see. And so I wrote really extensively. Maybe we can put a link to the, a newsletter I wrote about this as well in the show notes or something. But, basically, millennial dads are the most involved.

00;18;35;06 - 00;19;16;24
Katherine Goldstein
And of course there are, you know, we can add in a few people like, you know, Paul, I know you're Gen X, we'll we'll add you in on as an honorary. So my husband is Gen X also. But, basically, they millennial dads again, speaking in broad terms, are the most involved dads in the history of modern fatherhood, in terms of, their involvement, the, the, the way they, the time they put into caregiving, the nuances that they are committed to, their ongoing commitment to equal partnership, which I think, you know, is an imperfect thing.

00;19;16;27 - 00;19;33;02
Katherine Goldstein
I don't think that you can say you have an equal partnership and stay that way forever. Is an ongoing, process. And I think that, we need to celebrate that. It's not that everyone, you know should get a cookie every time they change a diaper, but from a.

00;19;33;05 - 00;19;39;03
Paul Sullivan
You'd be quite fat and probably have type two diabetes at the end of that because you changed a lot of diapers in the course of being a dad.

00;19;39;05 - 00;20;11;12
Katherine Goldstein
And but but in terms of the systemic things like, I think we need to praise, we need to really praise men for taking the their full amount of paternity leave. And it it's really important I think men are unexpected voices in the caregiving conversation. And people listen to unexpected voices in different ways. You know, even, for example, when Mark Zuckerberg took his first paternity leave, this was international news that a CEO of his his level, I think he took eight weeks.

00;20;11;12 - 00;20;24;06
Katherine Goldstein
Maybe this was like a gigantic deal. And a lot of other men, I think, felt like that helped enable them to take Bashar leave in the future. And then when his third day came around, nobody was caring how much paternity leave he took.

00;20;24;13 - 00;20;42;21
Paul Sullivan
That's a great point about Zuckerberg. But I also think, you know, more broadly, sort of any leader doesn't have to be the CEO, but it could be, you know, somebody you people manager, you know, what formerly known as middle managers. When they model it, it makes a huge difference. But when they don't, it has a huge, you know, detrimental impact.

00;20;42;21 - 00;21;08;05
Paul Sullivan
And the ones who may not be modeling it are, Gen X or in leadership position or, you know, baby boomers. What do you say? You know, are there was there anything from your research that showed sort of productive, optimistic ways to get those, you know, slightly older, you know, leaders to sort of not, you know, we hear these stories all the time about, oh, you know, when I had my kids, they're young and I missed everything.

00;21;08;05 - 00;21;21;03
Paul Sullivan
And people said in a boastful way, not in a remorseful way. Did you see anything that showed, you know, sort of movement on that front where, you know, there could be more productive modeling? For, for younger employees to take that full leave?

00;21;21;05 - 00;21;26;05
Katherine Goldstein
Well, one of one of the one piece of research I love is that paternity leave is contagious.

00;21;26;07 - 00;21;27;24
Paul Sullivan
So that's a great way to put it. Yeah.

00;21;27;27 - 00;21;54;23
Katherine Goldstein
If you know someone, brother, a friend, a coworker who's taking it, men are much more likely to take it. So there's really a positive downstream effect when you're thinking when men are about paternity leave, it's not just about your family, it's also about your community. I also think that, you know, studies show men who take paternity leave are more likely to have a closer relationship with their child at age six.

00;21;54;25 - 00;22;24;12
Katherine Goldstein
Their wife is more likely to, or if they have a funeral partner is more likely to, be employed and have, a stronger career. It's likely to help, their relationship in equal parenting. There's so many benefits beyond, just, you know, thinking of it as a negative from work. And I, you know, I honestly, I think that a new generation of dads, like, they just aren't going to stand for the idea that they're going to miss all these important moments.

00;22;24;12 - 00;22;42;07
Katherine Goldstein
I think that we're normalizing that that's not normal and that there's, you know, that job isn't going to be there for you on your deathbed. You know, I think there's a lot more questioning about what we actually get from work and trying to focus on things that really bring joy and meaning to our lives.

00;22;42;09 - 00;22;58;25
Paul Sullivan
You know, in the news that a you wrote about this, you you had a very provocative title, which I won't remember exactly, but it was something along the lines like, should we continue to praise fathers for, you know, should we continue to praise men for being fathers? And of course, the knee jerk reaction, would be no. Why?

00;22;58;25 - 00;23;14;12
Paul Sullivan
You know, their their parents well, but you came to the conclusion that, yes, we should praise them and I get you joking, you don't get a cookie every time you change a diaper. That would be unhealthy. But, you know, there is that notion of praise and I can see come from moms, but from other dads.

00;23;14;14 - 00;23;29;03
Paul Sullivan
Unpack that. Why is it important that, you know, men are raised in some reasonable form for acts that, you know, women and mothers have historically done, had an expectation?

00;23;29;05 - 00;23;33;23
Katherine Goldstein
I mean, we all like praise, but we all like praise.

00;23;33;23 - 00;23;37;00
Paul Sullivan
You are great, Catherine. There you go.

00;23;37;02 - 00;24;04;05
Katherine Goldstein
We all life, praise and parenting is hard. And instead of I, you know, one of the conclusions I came from this to this, from this newsletter was not just we should praise dads for doing the hard work of parenting, but we should praise everyone because it is hard. And, and I think that if we want to, for example, normalize paternity leave, you know, it's it's amazing to me.

00;24;04;07 - 00;24;24;21
Katherine Goldstein
I think most of the people in my life know, you know, my I do tons of work on moms and care and gender equity and, you know, people are still really surprised that my husband can handle all three of our children when I go out of town, you know, and, it is hard. I'm not like I am.

00;24;24;23 - 00;24;50;17
Katherine Goldstein
I'm having a great time when I go out of town. I'm not saying it's not hard. So he deserves praise because that is hard. And not just because he's a dad doing it. And I think if we want people, if we see behavior we like, we should celebrate it. I mean, I think the flip side of that is like, you know, you see the dad taking the baby out of the restaurant and for grandma's come up to him with, like, you're an amazing.

00;24;50;19 - 00;24;54;09
Paul Sullivan
You didn't drop him. How did you manage not to drop your child?

00;24;54;11 - 00;25;15;20
Katherine Goldstein
You held this baby for ten minutes. Dad of the year. I mean, that's overboard. But you know, it does suck when you miss your dinner. It's cold and you're, you know, comforting a crying baby, you know? And and that's okay to acknowledge that. I do think some of the praise, especially from older generations, had to do with how terrible their fathers were in previous job.

00;25;15;23 - 00;25;18;12
Katherine Goldstein
Well, there's the trade off.

00;25;18;14 - 00;25;32;08
Paul Sullivan
Perfect spot to. And, Catherine Goldstein, founder of The Double Shift and the author of the new report, A Playbook to Transform How America Cares. Thanks so much for coming on the Company Dads podcast today.

00;25;32;11 - 00;25;33;15
Katherine Goldstein
Thanks so much for having me.

00;25;33;22 - 00;25;36;29
Paul Sullivan
Hey, and to end on a praise note. You really are great.

00;25;37;02 - 00;25;40;09
Katherine Goldstein
Thank you. Paul, you.

00;25;40;12 - 00;26;09;05
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to the company of that podcast. I also want to thank the people who make this podcast and everything else that we do with the company of dads. Possible. Helder, Mira, who is our audio producer Lindsay Decker, handles all of our social media. Terry Brennan, who's helping us with the newsletter and audience acquisition, Emily Servin, who is our web maestro, and of course, Evan Roosevelt, who is working side by side with me on many of the things that we do here at The Company of Dads.

00;26;09;05 - 00;26;21;21
Paul Sullivan
It's a great team. And we're we're just trying to bring you the best in fatherhood. Remember, the one stop shop for everything is our newsletter, the dad. Sign up at the Company of dads.com backslash.

00;26;21;21 - 00;26;23;13

The dad. Thank you again for listening.