EP125: Are You Screwing Up Your Kids?: 5 Suggestions

Interview with Matt Maynard / Family Therapist and Parent Coach

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

When it comes to parenting advice, your friends and most therapists aren't going to give it to you straight. Matt Maynard, a New Jersey-based family therapist, is not one for beating around the bush. In this podcast, he gives 5 actionable pieces of advice ripped from his new book, "Honey We F’ed up the Kids: A Step by Step Process on How To Be a Less Sh*tty Parent" Learn what to do, not to do, and when a win is a win. 

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Transcript

00;00;00;04 - 00;00;40;28
Matt Maynard
If you think about parenting now, right, you're arguing and debating details and semantics and logistics and all the nonsense that goes into the problems. You don't get hung up in the weeds. And most kids that I work with, and I'm sure, you know, parents out there can relate. They both have a Harvard or Yale trained attorney as a child, and they also have a telenovela actor or actress. 
Right? So they're really emotional and they're also highly debating, you know, argumentative. Right. Which is exhausting. Right? So when I help parents talk about is, is let's focus on embracing teaching them and instilling principles in their character so they can actually start to function without us start to feel more proud to.

00;00;41;00 - 00;01;05;05
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the Company of Dad podcast. After 120 plus episodes, we're doing something different. I'm still your host, Paul Sullivan, and we're still focused on lead dads, working moms, and how small changes at home or work can have a big impact on people's lives. What's new is each episode now promises to deliver actionable advice on some area of concern at home or at work.

00;01;05;07 - 00;01;35;17
Paul Sullivan
Short, direct and again, actionable. Five questions. Five answers. This week, our guest is Matthew Maynard, a licensed marriage and family therapist and the author of an eye catching title book, honey. We Effed Up the Kids A Step by step Process and How to Be a Less Shitty Parent. I promise you, he's an optimistic guy, a guy whose advice is rooted in the real world.

00;01;35;21 - 00;02;05;21
Paul Sullivan
When kids have finally left your home. And today he's going to give you parents some actionable tips. Okay, Matthew. Number one tip for parents. What? You're here. We're ready. This is going to be a less shitty podcast for you. We're not going to have anything up here. Number one, let's start. Number one, what do we usually do wrong as as parents?

00;02;05;23 - 00;02;27;06
Matt Maynard
So I think the first thing that we struggle with is trying to transition from kind of really being compliance based. Right? We're really focused on getting our kids. So listen to us follow directions. Do as we tell them in the I think the biggest struggle is, is we also want to make them happy, right? Who doesn't want to have their kids have a better quality of life?

00;02;27;13 - 00;02;45;23
Matt Maynard
I hear mothers all the time say to me, you know, Matt, a mother is only as happy as their unhappiest child. And I can go into a whole family therapy lesson on why that is very emotionally enmeshed and not a healthy idea, but nonetheless, it's rooted in why we do a lot of the things that we do. We're focused on saving them a lot.

00;02;45;23 - 00;03;03;08
Matt Maynard
And so if we can, we believe if we can just get them to listen to us, if we can just get them to apply their lives and be easier, our life would be easier. But ultimately, it's a well-intentioned beginning to most of their ends. So that's a big part of where I am. We all kind of go wrong.

00;03;03;10 - 00;03;12;23
Paul Sullivan
All right. Then the number two question here is, you know, what do we need to do better? Is that like have like more unhappy kids? Like what's the answer to that? Like, what do we need to do better as parents here.

00;03;12;26 - 00;03;39;24
Matt Maynard
Yes. So I think because we're so used to talking about compliance and we're so used to getting to listen, we're used to talking about problems. We're really negative with our kids. And then on top of that, the, the, the problem in interacting with them around compliance is, is if they comply, if they listen to us, we've unintentionally robbed them of any sort of pride or dignity or any sort of problem solving that they could actually start to feel proud of.

00;03;39;27 - 00;04;00;10
Matt Maynard
And so I think in a lot of ways that we need to transition to is more of holding them accountable and allow them some of that artistic opportunity and liberty to start to make some of these decisions and problem solve for themselves in order to ultimately shift into being more about feeling proud and who they're becoming into their character.

00;04;00;10 - 00;04;18;13
Matt Maynard
So what I challenge parents to focus on instead of talking about problems I focus on, which is all behavior, right? This is all superficial surface level. What parents really actually want, though, is they want kids that have strong character and that are proud of themselves. Right? This is why the word self-esteem doesn't ironically have the word self in it.

00;04;18;13 - 00;04;45;10
Matt Maynard
It's intentional. Only they can create their senior, right? So we have to transition more to holding them accountable and let them troubleshoot some of these things in order to shift in to getting them to problem solve and feel proud of them, figuring out how to actually embrace principles. So if you think about parenting now, right, you're arguing and debating details and semantics and logistics and all the nonsense that goes into the problems, you can get hung up in the leads.

00;04;45;10 - 00;05;08;00
Matt Maynard
And most kids that I work with, and I'm sure, you know, parents out there can relate. They both have a Harvard or Yale trained attorney as a child, and they also have a telenovela actor or actress. Right? So they're really emotional and they're also highly debating, you know, argumentative. Right. Which is exhausting. Right. So this is because you're hung up on the details and you're usually missing the bigger picture, which is a principle.

00;05;08;00 - 00;05;19;01
Matt Maynard
Right? So when I help parents talk about is, is let's focus on embracing and teaching them and instilling principles in their character so they can actually start to function without start to feel more proud to.

00;05;19;03 - 00;05;32;04
Paul Sullivan
All right. This goes right into tip number three here. But I guess question two here before we get to number three is yeah. So your are your kids like the least happy kids on the block. Are they going to like stormed through the doors at any minute now and take you down.

00;05;32;10 - 00;05;52;16
Matt Maynard
But no no no because because in the process we I what I do is I help parents love their kids through the process of learning how to embrace those principles. Right. So a lot of what I because you're also talking about principles. These are things that they have no idea about. They're broad topics that as adults we can all agree are good most almost all the time.

00;05;52;16 - 00;06;13;19
Matt Maynard
Right. So a couple examples of principles are consideration being able to manage disappointment. And because we're focused on them learning these things, we understand that they're going to fall short. And and really they're going to make mistakes. But we need to believe that they're capable of embracing these. And so because we believe and then they start to live into this.

00;06;13;19 - 00;06;34;10
Matt Maynard
And we're also super encouraging. I have a term I call it positively prophesying. It's where you believe in the kid's capabilities of actually embracing this or that. This is really who they already are. So, for example, you might say to your kid like, hey, I know I'm going to hold you accountable what you did earlier, because I know deep down inside you're actually a loving, caring, considerate person.

00;06;34;13 - 00;06;51;26
Matt Maynard
So I'm holding you to that standard because I believe in you. See what happens now, I think for a lot of parents is, is, anytime they think about consequences and we go into this later. But like, anytime they think about consequences, it's it's got a really negative wrap around it because of their own upbringing, their own experience.

00;06;52;03 - 00;07;01;28
Matt Maynard
Consequences when they were younger was punitive. Punishing was horrifying. Most people were physically and emotionally abused. Like it's not. It doesn't have a good connotation for most parents.

00;07;02;00 - 00;07;19;23
Paul Sullivan
All right. So, you know, so many of our listeners, you have the company dads are our lead dads, which is the go to parent, happens to be a man and, you know, working moms. And they're thinking, how am I going to manage all this on those days when I'm working remotely? So tip number three, tell us, and you've touched on it here in a little bit.

00;07;19;23 - 00;07;27;21
Paul Sullivan
But tip number three, specifically, why shouldn't we focus on behavior as parents.

00;07;27;23 - 00;07;57;29
Matt Maynard
So behavior is more often than, just the the surface level emotional response that your kid is impulsively responding to and in a lot of ways, when you start going down the road, in the rabbit hole of focusing on behavior, you're not really getting that clear. Understand what's going on underneath. You're also failing to maybe even take into consideration, like the family dynamic that I'm a family therapist.

00;07;57;29 - 00;08;20;29
Matt Maynard
So as much as you can focus on parent child, sometimes the behavior of a child is actually rooted in something that's going on within the family system. So for example, I'll work with parents all the time where they'll say, oh, my son's really oppositional, defiant, and he's constantly attacking his sister and blah, blah, blah, blah blah. And lo and behold, what I wind up realizing very quickly is, is the the daughter gets away with everything, right?

00;08;21;00 - 00;08;42;28
Matt Maynard
Maybe it's gender norms, maybe it's family of origin from the parents they reject. Maybe she's younger, maybe ultimately she's a little bit more compliant. Right? That's often something I find is like that child tends to get a little bit more flexibility because they're more cooperative and easier than the other child. But the reality is, is, they're not holding them to the same standards.

00;08;42;28 - 00;09;10;10
Matt Maynard
And there's more understanding and flexibility for the daughter than maybe for the son. And so that creates this kind of feedback loop where he's constantly trying to get them to hold her to the same level or standards that he's held to. And so you'll hear kids say often, oh, this is unfair and blah, blah, blah, blah. So by focusing on that, you're also qualifying certain behaviors without really actually getting to what the intent of what it is that you want your kid to do.

00;09;10;13 - 00;09;28;21
Matt Maynard
I tell parents all the time, you don't go to a restaurant and tell the waiter what you don't want on the menu. They're going to look at you like you're like, crazy, right? We do this with our kids all the time. Stop doing this. Don't. Don't you don't do this. Why are you do this? And instead, because you're focusing on the details of the behavior and more of the core stuff.

00;09;28;28 - 00;09;56;11
Matt Maynard
You're missing part of this opportunity to talk about something positive and talk about a principle and talk about a broader idea that ultimately kids will understand easier, right? So it avoids those negative power struggles, debates, arguments, the dramatic likes like the telenovela actor or actress. It gets you away from that and into this more like reasonable, understandable. Kids can also understand bigger ideas because they can generalize that right.

00;09;56;11 - 00;10;20;13
Matt Maynard
You can talk about consideration in probably 5 or 6 different problems, so to speak, that this is experiencing or maybe even managing disappointment. You can talk about all these 5 or 6 scenarios that come up on a weekly basis for a parent and for a child. You can start talking about those in a broader context, which tends to be easier for kids to understand and and complex comprehend, right?

00;10;20;13 - 00;10;35;29
Matt Maynard
They're always asking, but why? But why, but why? And if you can constantly draw on a principle, it's easier for them to understand that it's easier for the parents. I mean, how much do you want to actually get in a debate with a kid around all the minutia details? Semantics is there. Good. And I've seen a couple of them.

00;10;35;29 - 00;10;36;24
Matt Maynard
They can spar.

00;10;37;00 - 00;10;39;02
Paul Sullivan
Unrelenting. Unrelenting.

00;10;39;02 - 00;10;44;00
Matt Maynard
Yeah, they are they are unrelenting. All right.

00;10;44;02 - 00;11;06;09
Paul Sullivan
Tip number four here. I hear a lot about gentle parenting to the to the point where my 15 year old sees people at the community pool and they go, no, there are some gentle parents to disaster. Yeah. Should we be embracing gentle parenting? Should we be using consequences as as parents? And if not, what do we use in its place?

00;11;06;11 - 00;11;33;13
Matt Maynard
So gentle parenting, I think, is constantly the there's a misnomer out there that gentle parenting is permissive, right. So there's four parenting styles, by the way. There's there's neglectful, which most people are not. Right. There are neglectful parents, but more often than not, they're not. There's permissive, which just means that they are they're high on being emotionally attuned with their child, but they're demanding this is low.

00;11;33;13 - 00;11;52;19
Matt Maynard
So they have low demands but high emotional responsiveness. Right. There's two axes by the way for these neglectful is your low in both right. Your low in emotional responsiveness. Your low in demanding is authoritarian is where you're low and emotional responsiveness but high in demanding this right. You could care less. I think it feels right. This is how most parents grew up, right?

00;11;52;20 - 00;12;18;22
Matt Maynard
Do as I say, not as I do children to be seen, not heard right. This very authoritarian right. And then you have authoritative, which is what is really based on evidence, the best parenting approach. This is where you're high and emotional responsiveness, but you're also high and demanding. This. And a lot of what's happening though is, is because parents grew up in a time of authoritarian kind of do as I say, not as I do.

00;12;18;28 - 00;12;55;15
Matt Maynard
They really have a hard time with the consequence portion of holding. They're actually implementing consequences, right? Because they have all these negative emotional associations with punishment and yelling and screaming and power struggles and emotionally torturing the kid and making them feel ashamed and guilty. But the reality is, is, a lot of what we need for kids to feel confident and comfortable and secure in families is they need to have boundaries and what I think gentle parenting struggles with is they've slowly but surely they don't like using consequences.

00;12;55;15 - 00;13;01;19
Matt Maynard
They like using what they call natural consequences, which we all know that kids is. I'm not saying I'm not a I'm not against.

00;13;01;19 - 00;13;08;05
Paul Sullivan
Like like if you don't listen to me and you run in the road, you're going to get run over. Is that a natural. Yes. Yeah. That's crazy.

00;13;08;07 - 00;13;30;23
Matt Maynard
Yeah. It's like it's like yeah. It's not like that. There's just like, oh well if they don't do their homework and I'll get into this, we'll get into this. But they don't get, don't do their homework. Well, the teacher's going to hold them accountable and yell at them at school, which, by the way, we can get into a whole other series of topic of conversation around how schools are struggling to do this because they're scared of the parents suing them and all that stuff, but or getting yelled at or not and not enough support.

00;13;30;23 - 00;14;09;05
Matt Maynard
There's a whole host of things, but they're so hung up on the emotional component that emotional responsiveness that they might have going into a rabbit hole. And this unintentional. And it's well-intentioned, but it goes too far. And what happens is, is you're so focused on having this dialog about what the kids experience and feeling and going through that you create a little bit of this narcissism where they're so that hyper fixated and focused on their own feelings, that they fail to recognize how to actually integrate those into behavior that's reasonable and and quite honestly, sustainable.

00;14;09;11 - 00;14;26;13
Matt Maynard
This is why you have kids, like constantly melting down or the parents are just enabling them, or throwing the phones at them or the screens or whatever, just to pacify them because they don't really know how to hold and use consequences in a way that doesn't trigger their upbringing. Right.

00;14;26;15 - 00;14;31;20
Paul Sullivan
What is what is the right way? What's the right way to use consequences?

00;14;31;22 - 00;14;59;05
Matt Maynard
So the traditional way of using consequences that most parents are accustomed with is like you're doing it to be punitive and you're doing it to actually be spiteful or rejected because the kid has done something that's either frustrated you or or gone against you, or they disrespected you, something along those lines. And so punishment is personal. The problem is, is if you're trying to raise somebody that has strong character and pride, it can't really be about the parents.

00;14;59;08 - 00;15;24;17
Matt Maynard
And I think that's a problem that I, I'm constantly having to challenge parents on is, is they're getting too emotionally enmeshed and overlapped with the child's behavior with their own sense of self. And I have to kind of create this healthy hierarchy and this healthy boundary between parent and child that most parents struggle to incorporate because of their their upbringing, their family of origin, their past history of punishment.

00;15;24;20 - 00;15;53;15
Matt Maynard
And so I use consequences a very different way. I use consequences not to be punitive and punishing, but there does need to be a cost to get your kid to start to care about the choices they're making. But I use consequences to create and put pressure on the child to take some self-reflective moments. If they're not processing how their feelings are leading to impulsive, poor behavior, that's then really not creating strong character that they're going to feel proud of.

00;15;53;17 - 00;16;14;19
Matt Maynard
You're kind of in, for lack of a better term, pissing in the wind as a parent. So if they're not reflecting, they're not learning enough. And know that if they're also not going through an emotional experience of learning, it's not going to step right. Learning is not logical. It's emotional. And so a lot of parents, what they do is, is they'll lecture, they'll go down the rabbit hole.

00;16;14;25 - 00;16;33;12
Matt Maynard
They'll they'll do all the well-intentioned stuff. They'll haggled or negotiate. They'll I call them the I think I call them these, Jeffrey Epstein versus the state of Florida sweetheart deals. It's where they go when they make a I'm not judging you. I call that to parents because they will work out a deal where they'll be. I'll give you this.

00;16;33;12 - 00;17;06;07
Matt Maynard
But then you have to do this, and it creates this dynamic where then once you have all your leverage on what happens, the kids kid's like, oh no, I'm not doing that now. And then you're back in a power struggle. So I use consequences and in a delayed way, a very strategic way to ultimately get the kid to care, but also force them to go through this reflective process where we're asking reflective questions to process how they're feeling, how they're them respond in those feelings, and how they can respond differently to incorporate those principles, to start to feel proud and to also have better times as a family.

00;17;06;10 - 00;17;25;15
Matt Maynard
Like if we're not building character, if they're not reflecting and growing from there and learning from their mistakes, then what are we doing? Like there's that. That is the essence of parenting, and a lot of parents struggle with that. They'll pull like they'll say, oh, I don't want to have this follow up dialog after the the dust has settled.

00;17;25;15 - 00;17;45;29
Matt Maynard
We're calm. You know, it's I don't want to, like, use a delayed consequence because it's just going to start this process all up again. And what I tell them is, is, well, then you're just going to repeat the same pattern. You're just delaying the inevitable though. So yeah, you might not have a conflict here, but it's coming and there's no forward progress of them learning, reflecting, growing.

00;17;46;01 - 00;18;05;05
Matt Maynard
And actually also the most important part, they're not feeling proud of themselves because then when you have another conflict with them, that's not going to make them feel good, right? So at the end of the day, it's really about shifting consequences to create that emotional reflection and get them to come up with a strategy rather than lecturing them, controlling them, compliance based.

00;18;05;05 - 00;18;06;21
Matt Maynard
All that nonsense.

00;18;06;23 - 00;18;32;05
Paul Sullivan
All right, fifth and final question. A big tip here for parents. You and I were talking before in your house somewhere. It doesn't count. Kid comes up to you, says I'm sorry. Yeah, you just wait it out. What's up with that? And why is that important? Because it's. I think it's counterintuitive for so many parents to desperately want to have their child say sorry to them, or sorry to a sibling after doing something not very nice.

00;18;32;05 - 00;18;35;04
Paul Sullivan
So why doesn't sorry count?

00;18;35;07 - 00;18;55;02
Matt Maynard
Yeah, it's a very unpopular and counterintuitive approach, but when I explain it to you, it'll it'll actually make sense. More often than not. What happens is a kid does something. There's usually a conflict, whether it's to you, a sibling or whatever. And at some point, you know, most kids aren't sociopaths, so they have empathy and they feel guilty.

00;18;55;02 - 00;19;14;15
Matt Maynard
They do. And they'll come to you and they'll say, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. I won't do it again. Please, please. They have this desperation because and this is what, gentle parent, this is where I really had a hard time with the gentle parenting stuff is as soon as the kid says that they're sorry, the parent then goes in and they start talking with them about what they can do differently.

00;19;14;15 - 00;19;37;16
Matt Maynard
And they do all this stuff. The problem is, is the person who controls the end of the conflict will actually create the future belief of who controls the entire conflict moving forward in the in perpetuity, meaning. So let me let me try to explain that differently. If I could control the end of how a conflict happens, then I don't have to care about how it starts.

00;19;37;19 - 00;19;56;20
Matt Maynard
So when the kid is in the future going to have to make different decisions on whether or not they're going to behave a certain way, if they know, oh, it's as simple as and this is all unconscious, but it's pattern, right? Kids are pattern pictures if I know, oh, I just got to be remorseful and go and say, I'm sorry that we just all move on and everything's forgiven and it's all good.

00;19;56;22 - 00;20;16;03
Matt Maynard
But if that's not in the kid's realm of control, like they can still say they're sorry and we can be very understanding. Hey, Timmy, it's great that you're reflecting and you recognize that you feel bad. That's good that you're willing to apologize. That's great. I'm not ready. But I need a few minutes because I'm still kind of upset about the choices you made.

00;20;16;03 - 00;20;39;26
Matt Maynard
And how it's affected other people and including me. So when I'm ready, I'm going to come talk to them and smoke them out a little bit. Because if they know that, hey, the and how this ends isn't going to be on my terms. There's some healthy anxiety around it. They start to then make different decisions moving forward on whether or not they really, really, really want to keep doing this to themselves.

00;20;39;28 - 00;20;57;15
Matt Maynard
Right? So you need to kind of leverage some of that attachment and some of that attunement to help them understand, like, hey, people beyond just mom and dad, like they're not just going to move on when you go and apologize. Like if you've done certain things, they're not just going to be like, oh, is forgiving. Let's just move.

00;20;57;15 - 00;21;34;01
Matt Maynard
No, no one's going to love your kids more than you do. And if you are teaching them that you're not going to tolerate it, they're pretty well equipped for how the adult world is, because if they kind of go into the adult world understanding that they make better decisions over time, not they're not perfect, right? But over time, they tend to start to go, oh, I don't know if I want to do this because they know that the ending is it really going to be on their terms, which is really what my parenting processes, and that's what I coach a lot of parents into doing, is, is really understanding a system and a pattern to

00;21;34;01 - 00;21;57;21
Matt Maynard
get it so that the parents have the ability to control the ending. They are not controlling the beginning. They're not controlling the middle, they're figuring out how to control the end. And that's how you build character. That's how you have a hierarchy. That's how you create a strong family system. And that's also how you will raise your kids so that when they get to the adult world, they can self-regulate and feel proud of themselves.

00;21;57;23 - 00;22;12;22
Paul Sullivan
You know, one more question. You know, five a here on on this sorry some kids, they break down immediately I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Some kids think about it for a while. They come to I'm sorry I'm sorry. But what about you know, you get the kid who's the ninja who's never going to say, sorry. So you.

00;22;12;22 - 00;22;20;15
Paul Sullivan
You know, the thing doesn't end. What do you do with that kid to get what you're saying here? But that kid who's going to be resistant to say sorry ever.

00;22;20;18 - 00;22;55;05
Matt Maynard
So again, this is where I talk about that boundary between parent and child and how they're enmeshed. Most parents have a hard time separating their ego from parenting, right? So they're looking for the sorry to actually get the respect back, or to actually get the kid to recognize how they made them feel. But the reality is, it's like the if you're that I'm going to say this blunt truth, if you're that soft as a parent, you're going to have a really hard time really creating somebody that's strong because you have the model that.

00;22;55;08 - 00;23;28;15
Matt Maynard
So if you're easily getting upset and frustrated and hurt and wounded by your child, then you're modeling that. And not only that, we're trying to create kids that have strong character and strong sense of self. So even if you have a kid that doesn't say they're sorry, that's okay, because we're ultimately going to use consequences and accountability because we really want them reflecting on how they feel about themselves when they make these decisions and ultimately get them to think about how they want to do things differently for themselves because they're just going to continue to do it and mess up their own day.

00;23;28;18 - 00;23;49;00
Matt Maynard
We're kind of setting up a little bit of an emotional detachment, so to speak, so that there is this hierarchy between parent and child. That's what I think. Gentle parenting also misses Paul, like, because they're so emotionally attuned and they're so focused on their feelings and thoughts and what they want their kid to do in their kids feelings and thoughts and what they want.

00;23;49;02 - 00;24;02;18
Matt Maynard
There's no hierarchy. And if there's no hierarchy, there's almost this, power struggle for who's in control and the kids are. And that's never a good recipe for raising children.

00;24;02;20 - 00;24;27;01
Paul Sullivan
Matt. Thank you. This has been great. For more information, go to his site Emotionally strategic.com or find him on Instagram where he has lots of tips on how to be a less shitty parent. Last question here. Quick take away what's the biggest win that a parent can achieve with their kids?

00;24;27;03 - 00;24;56;05
Matt Maynard
So I, I think the biggest win is if you can get a kid that starts to develop an intrinsic motivation to make decisions so that they feel good about the person they're becoming in the process of getting what they want. And I think in today's day and age, we believe that kids need us to feel proud of them and to praise them and to give them rewards and positive encouragement.

00;24;56;05 - 00;25;13;06
Matt Maynard
And I'm not saying we don't need to do those things. I think there's secondary, though, and we've made them primary. And so instead of saying that you're, hey, mom and I are proud of you, or hey, I'm proud of you, I think we might need to shift to, hey, you should feel proud of yourself here. Like, good for you.

00;25;13;09 - 00;25;33;14
Matt Maynard
Because if you can start to create a kid that's making decisions that they will ultimately feel proud of who they're becoming in the process of getting whatever it is they want, they'll have everything they will. They'll have both what they want and they'll be able to sleep with themselves at night. And I think a lot of today's day and age, we look at a lot of people.

00;25;33;17 - 00;26;00;26
Matt Maynard
They're willing to sell themselves, their soul to get what they want, and they're not really proud, and they just keep chasing. And I see this with a lot of kids. They're chasing materialism. They're chasing social media lights. They're chasing friendship, validation. They're they're chasing validation from women and from men, from boys, from girls. It's we've lost sight of creating strong character and a sense of pride, of who were becoming in the process of getting those things.

00;26;00;26 - 00;26;20;06
Matt Maynard
And I think that's the biggest win parents can have today, because it's ultimately the thing that is going to make them feel good inside. That process of who they're becoming is going to make them feel good inside. And it's not about making them happy. It's about making them strong and proud of who they're, who they are and the process of getting there.

00;26;20;06 - 00;26;22;23
Matt Maynard
So that's, I think, the biggest win.

00;26;22;25 - 00;26;37;06
Paul Sullivan
Matthew Maynard, a licensed marriage and family therapist and the author of honey, We Effed Up the Kids, the Step by Step Process and How to Be a Less Shitty Parent. Thank you again for being my guest today on the company. That podcast.

00;26;37;08 - 00;26;40;04
Matt Maynard
Thanks, Paul. I appreciate it.

00;26;40;06 - 00;27;05;18
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to the company podcast. I also want to thank the people who make this podcast and everything else that we do at the Company of Dads. Possible. Helder Mira, who is our audio producer Lindsay Decker, handles all of our social media. Terry Brennan, who's helping us with the newsletter and audience acquisition, Emily Servin, who is our web maestro, and of course, Evan Roosevelt, who is working side by side with me.

00;27;05;18 - 00;27;23;08
Paul Sullivan
And many things that we do here at the Company of Dads. It's a great team. And we're just trying to bring you the best in fatherhood. Remember, the one stop shop for everything is our newsletter, the dad. Sign up at the Company of dads.com backslash. The dad. Thank you again for listening.