EP95: You May Be Telling The Story of Your Life Wrong

Interview with Jason Frishman / Narrative Therapist, Founder of JourneyMen

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Can fathers journey through life with responsibility, meaning, intention and partnership? That's Jason Frishman's goal: A therapist based in Vermont, he wants to help men create and sustain authentic relationships with one another and live a more meaningful life. He wants to help them become engaged participants in their family, community and work lives. Listen to how redefining masculinity helps the entire family.

---

Get our free newsletter covering all things fatherhood delivered straight to your inbox: https://thecompanyofdads.com/thedad/

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

00;00;05;24 - 00;00;26;04
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the Company of Dads podcast, where we explore the sweet, silly, strange and sublime aspects of being a dad in a world where men and where they go to parent aren't always accepted at work, among their friends or in the community for what they're doing. I'm your host, Paul Sullivan. Our podcast is just one of the many things we produce each week.

00;00;26;04 - 00;00;48;28
Paul Sullivan
At the company of that, we have various features, including the lead dad of the week. We have our community both online and in person. This year we're following Skip Kerry Homes, as he goes through his Lead dad diaries as he transitions from being a traveling musician to a full on the dad. We also have a research library for all fathers.

00;00;48;29 - 00;01;17;20
Paul Sullivan
The one stop shop for all of it is our newsletter, The Dad. So sign up at the Company of dads.com. Backslash the Dad. Today my guest is Jason Frishman, a psychologist and founder of journeyman, a group that inspires fathers to journey through life with responsibility, meaning, intention and partnership. The goal is to help men create and sustain authentic relationships with one another and live a more meaningful life.

00;01;17;27 - 00;01;37;26
Paul Sullivan
Becoming engaged participant in their family, community, and work lives. The Sydney program is called Connected Fathers, which is a three month group coaching program to support men in their fatherhood journey and define masculinity for themselves. Welcome, Jason to the Company Dads podcast.

00;01;37;28 - 00;01;41;10
Jason Frishman
Thanks, Paul. I appreciate that. It's really good to be here.

00;01;41;12 - 00;01;43;15
Paul Sullivan
We're talking in Vermont, right?

00;01;43;18 - 00;01;52;15
Jason Frishman
Oh, yeah. We're, we're in the the fall foliage season. So chilis and outdoor fires and, you know, beautiful sights and colors.

00;01;52;18 - 00;02;02;15
Paul Sullivan
Pretty? Pretty good. How is it up there? Because we're we're down in Connecticut and it's it's seeming a little muted this year because of all the rain. Do you get some vibrant colors up there in Vermont?

00;02;02;17 - 00;02;19;22
Jason Frishman
Definitely definitely vibrant colors. But I think it is. We you know, I've heard before the season started, we heard that the colors were going to be a little muted. And I don't know if I see it muted. I see it as it kind of has come more quickly. And so colors were beautiful for like a couple of days and now they're already starting to turn.

00;02;19;22 - 00;02;24;25
Jason Frishman
And you know we're moving more quickly towards winter than I think we usually do in the past.

00;02;24;27 - 00;02;27;07
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, yeah, I got you. Yeah.

00;02;27;09 - 00;02;29;18
Jason Frishman
At least color wise.

00;02;29;20 - 00;02;47;17
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. I don't know what. Welcome first. How did you get to Vermont or how did you get into this work? Let's go with the work, you know. How did you become. You know, how did you decide to become, a psychologist? One. It's a lot of work. A lot of school. But two. How did you know?

00;02;47;17 - 00;02;55;09
Paul Sullivan
Men. And we're going to talk about the whole notion of the journey. How did that become, your your focus.

00;02;55;11 - 00;03;12;28
Jason Frishman
That's, It it's it's a long story, but the quick part is I became a psychologist. You know, as a kid, I always was always interested. I actually wanted to be a pediatric neurosurgeon as a child, and I got. I got into college premed. I got a whole scholarship.

00;03;12;29 - 00;03;18;11
Paul Sullivan
You wanted to look inside the brains of your friends. Is that what you wanted to do? What did you want to do?

00;03;18;13 - 00;03;40;19
Jason Frishman
Hey, you know, I think early on, you know, my father's a social worker. My mom's a teacher. I grew up visiting their work and really watching how much they loved what they did. And so as a young teen, I was like, I want to do what they do, but I want to go deeper. I want to like, you know, I think at that point I was interested in medicine and I just really was so interested.

00;03;40;19 - 00;04;03;07
Jason Frishman
I have always been interested in the working of the brain. Yeah. And so the connection between the biological and the neurological with sort of what we look like and how we interact every day was always a real interest to me. But then freshman year in college, I, you know, I did very well grade wise, but at the end of the year decided this is not where I want to go.

00;04;03;07 - 00;04;26;21
Jason Frishman
Like, this is not, the the innards of human beings is not really the direction that I want to take. And I kind of flipped out and had a really hard time, like, this is what I've always wanted to do. I don't know what to do. Talking to my parents, they were very supportive, and the one thing they said was, well, don't go into social work because you know, that's what we've been doing and it's too much of a struggle, you know?

00;04;26;21 - 00;04;54;29
Jason Frishman
And I said, well, okay. And I went into psychology. And so, you know, similar enough similar struggles all of that. But I also have always, I've always gone the sort of interesting and new route. So even though being a psychologist is a pretty prescribed path, right. Like I got my master's degree, I went practiced, I got my doctoral degree, I got a license, I practiced, you know, I followed that path.

00;04;55;01 - 00;05;04;03
Jason Frishman
But I've always danced around and I've always been a little bit fringe. My master's degree in psychology is an adventure therapy, and my doctorate focuses on narrative therapy.

00;05;04;05 - 00;05;19;05
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. And that's something I want to dig into, because when you and I have talked in the past, this is this is pretty intriguing, particularly because, you know, I'm not saying you focus entirely on men, but but, you know, that's the journey, man is all about that. What does that mean? What does adventure therapy mean? You know what?

00;05;19;10 - 00;05;31;15
Paul Sullivan
How do you apply, you know, narrative theory, therapy. Narrative therapy to to what you're doing with men when they come to you with perhaps more, you know, seemingly traditional problems?

00;05;31;17 - 00;05;50;06
Jason Frishman
Yeah. So very, very quickly, adventure therapy is a is an international field using, activities that, you know, stereotypically are often seen as adventure backpacking, kayaking, cave, you know, climbing, things like that. And it uses those activities.

00;05;50;11 - 00;05;54;06
Paul Sullivan
Parenting three tired children. Does that count as well?

00;05;54;06 - 00;06;17;14
Jason Frishman
It does in my world. So that's exactly where I've taken it, right? That's in fact, that's exactly where I was going to go is that's what we're taking it to, is that adventure therapy traditionally typically is around going off into the woods and having an experience or a ropes course or, you know, some sort of experience that you have that is then used as a metaphor for the issue you're working on in therapy.

00;06;17;17 - 00;06;33;04
Jason Frishman
Right? Backpacking is a great example. If you go backpacking with a group people, we can always, you know, if the group is sort of homogenous in the therapy they're looking for, right? Group therapy on the trail. Well, what's in your pad? What's in your pack? What do you what do you need to set up your camp with. What do you know.

00;06;33;04 - 00;07;01;01
Jason Frishman
So all of the elements of the backpacking experience are metaphor closely to the issues that each individual is working on. Right. So that's sort of traditional typical adventure therapy for me. I rate getting out of school. I was working at inner city schools in Boston, and so, I was not taking anyone backpacking. I was not taking anyone ropes course, but one kid, one said he's like, just get into schools and adventure, right?

00;07;01;01 - 00;07;25;25
Jason Frishman
These were kids who who were really, you know, potentially in a lot of danger each morning walking to school. And so I was always developing like, all right, especially with my interest in narrative therapy is, well, what's the story? What is the metaphor of adventure or journey, and how does that fit in our lives, in healing and connecting and in creating partnerships with other people who care.

00;07;25;26 - 00;07;51;15
Jason Frishman
Right. And so the adventure piece I took away, I moved slightly away from backpacking and kayaking. And, you know, I love those things and more towards this metaphor of life as an adventure in life as a journey. And how can we do that in an office? How can we do that? You know, back when I was working in Boston, my office, one of my offices was literally a bathroom that we put a table over the toilet.

00;07;51;17 - 00;08;14;28
Jason Frishman
And, you know, that's where they gave me. So how can I do adventure work with a kid in that kind of space? Right. And so, that developed over time. And so narrative was the perfect answer. Right. Because narrative is all about the stories we tell about ourselves. And we tell and others tell about us in isolation and in connection with our context.

00;08;14;28 - 00;08;50;29
Jason Frishman
All the people around us, our family, our culture, community, in our society. Right. And so we're that's moved to now working with fathers is how do we as dads really connect a with ourselves and then be with our family and community and work extension using and creating new stories for masculinity and fatherhood? Right. The typical traditional stories that are told in our families and in culture and media, they're not very they're not supporting us in the same way.

00;08;50;29 - 00;09;12;29
Jason Frishman
I mean, we can look at, you know, men have higher levels of anxiety and depression. They have higher levels of suicide, they have higher levels of heart disease. They, you know, all of these things. Part of that is our disconnection, which is in many ways, you know, if not created, supported and pushed forward with our now our social stories about how to be men.

00;09;13;04 - 00;09;35;28
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, I want to drill down on that, because if you think of, you know, the stories that we read and we learn in school that we continue reading, there's an arc, there's a protagonist, you know, there's somebody who has, triumphed and, I mean, some, you know, different, different shows now are taking the approach more of an anti-hero than a hero.

00;09;35;28 - 00;10;15;19
Paul Sullivan
But still, the antihero is still successful being, you know, anti heroic. And everything wraps up neatly in, you know, 300 pages or, you know, 22 minutes. What do you do to sort of unpack that narrative, which I could imagine, as you all the research around in a man struggling with, with depression, with suicide, with alienation, with isolation, well, if you buy into the that narrative of, of success of by the success of even if there are obstacles, you quickly conquer the obstacles and you move on because again, you only have 300 pages.

00;10;15;19 - 00;10;25;27
Paul Sullivan
You get to finish a story. What do you do to sort of shift that? And what do you do? That narrative. You shift it, challenge it, rewrite it did talk to us about that.

00;10;25;29 - 00;10;43;08
Jason Frishman
Well, you know, I it's not a simple answer, but I think the first thing that I do specifically with guys is help them become aware of it. Right. So much of these narratives are whispered right there in your face if we look at them. But if we're not looking at them, we just accept it as like, well, this is it, right?

00;10;43;08 - 00;11;04;07
Jason Frishman
This is these are the stories and we're not. It's like, you know, fish swimming in water isn't aware of the water kind of thing is. Yeah. We're not aware of these guiding narratives and and that's on a lot of it. So the very first thing is increasing awareness and being able to identify the sort of voice of these narratives more and more often.

00;11;04;07 - 00;11;25;27
Jason Frishman
So the first example, and you and I talked a little bit about this is there's the narrative, the hero, the hero's journey. Right. That is a tried and true, very well studied, you know, very well developed story in that every Pixar movie, Lord of the rings, Star Wars, you know so many people that is considered the story, right?

00;11;25;27 - 00;11;57;21
Jason Frishman
It was called the monomyth. The one myth. Right. And I loved it. I mean, I wrote my dissertation from the metaphor of the hero's journey, and I spent the first 15 years of my, my, my career developing, interventions and therapeutic techniques and things based on the hero's journey. And I spent, you know, when I was doing more workshops and seeing clients and public talks, I would often ask, what's your favorite adventure story?

00;11;57;23 - 00;12;19;24
Jason Frishman
And inevitably, 9.9 times out of ten, it was some version of the hero's journey. Either, either a fictional one or, you know, someone says that time I get lost on the mountain or, you know, whatever it is. And for the first ten years or 15 years of my career, I was like, great, I must be doing something right, you know, like, it was very self-congratulatory.

00;12;19;26 - 00;12;46;00
Jason Frishman
But then, you know, with narrative training, we actually one of the things we're one of the tenants of narrative, the narrative perspective, is he is questioning, taken for granted stories and narratives, right? Questioning the the dominant story or paradigm and not accepting it just as is. Right. If you know, I love the hero's Journey, I'm a huge Star Wars and I'm a huge Lord of the rings fan.

00;12;46;00 - 00;13;05;17
Jason Frishman
You know, I'm a huge MCU fan, but when I heard that over and over and over and over and over again, it was sort of in me in my training and kind of who I am and how I see the world. I was like, oh, well, what does this mean? Right? Like, what does it mean that this is the only story that people are giving me?

00;13;05;19 - 00;13;14;09
Jason Frishman
And maybe it's not that, oh, we got it right, but that this story has become so dominant. That is actually it's oppressive to other possibilities.

00;13;14;12 - 00;13;37;06
Paul Sullivan
It's oppressive and also if you think about, you know, the hero's journey, along the way, he's got to get some people out of the way. And, and some people are antihero, some people, you know, struggle more. So what what is what's the alternative or what what are some I'm sure there's more than one. What are some of the alternatives that you use to help, man, think through what's going on in their lives?

00;13;37;06 - 00;13;40;29
Paul Sullivan
And, you know, give me a couple of examples of how it works in practice.

00;13;41;02 - 00;13;58;01
Jason Frishman
Well, sure. The, you know, the other side, you know, I, you know, like I said, I don't want to throw out the hero's journey wholeheartedly. I think there's some really good to it. Originally journeyman the pro, my program, my business was called adventures. Other half because I think of the hero's journey is only half.

00;13;58;03 - 00;14;05;26
Paul Sullivan
Is that when you have like, blisters on your feet and you're you're regretting not like breaking in the shoes before you went for the hike, or that's something entirely different.

00;14;05;28 - 00;14;27;13
Jason Frishman
In some ways. Yeah, I never thought about it, but but truly, here's the thing is that when when our hero is on, you know, their their hero's journey, the big adventure, and let's say the blisters are hurting and the dragon is stomping on their head, right. And they're about to give up. What usually happens in those stories.

00;14;27;16 - 00;14;29;18
Paul Sullivan
Somebody saves or anything. Somebody saves.

00;14;29;19 - 00;14;54;04
Jason Frishman
Either somebody saves them. You know, a friend comes, right, you know, right in the nick of time or more often than not, in conjunction with being saved, they find an amulet in their pocket, or they remember some wise words that someone told them, or they flash back and have a three minute montage to training so that they can power up and re reignite that fire to finish the journey.

00;14;54;07 - 00;15;32;29
Jason Frishman
Well, that three minute montage or that amulet is what I'm really interested in. And to to answer your question, I call that. So we have the Hero's journey, which is one side of the adventure, the other side I call Foundational adventures. And they are adventures of at home. Right? So they're this idea of how do we as people, as humans, but particularly because of I work with fathers, how do we as fathers get connected to what's most important to us our values, our core beliefs, the reasons why we do all these things and then apply them to our everyday interactions at home or in the equivalent of home, like not at work, not at, you

00;15;32;29 - 00;15;53;17
Jason Frishman
know, this idea of like with my kids or, you know, these people whom I purport to love the most, how do I elevate the status of these, everyday, mundane experiences without it having to be epic or legendary, you know, without it having to be? I'm going to take next week off and we're going to go on this big trip, which is lovely.

00;15;53;19 - 00;16;24;10
Jason Frishman
Yeah, but how can I spend, you know, ten minutes or less every day having meaningful, really authentic connections with my kids that are foundational and create long term partnerships and relationships. So this narrative is this idea of foundational adventures and the sort of way we do it is we have guys, you know, the metaphor in the Hero's journey about the dragon or the challenge is this big thing that you've got to take on.

00;16;24;10 - 00;16;50;28
Jason Frishman
And historically, men's programs, therapy in general uses, that is like your big issue. How are you going to work on your internal issue? And that's important. I mean, I certainly in my clinical world outside of coaching, I work with guys who have significant anxiety, significant depression. And we we do that. We talk about that. But the hero doesn't battle a dragon unless they've had years of like training with a sword or at least some magical way of getting good with a sword.

00;16;50;28 - 00;17;11;26
Jason Frishman
So some way that they've, like, built a foundation and for some reason, many of which I could share about. But we as a culture don't value the training side of of of the story. We don't value weeding the garden. We don't value doing the dishes. We don't value, you know, a lot of these things. And yet that's the most important, right?

00;17;11;26 - 00;17;40;01
Jason Frishman
I would argue we cannot have epic or legendary lives unless we've built this foundational adventure where we are aware of our values and we know the skills we need to develop and instead of the dragons, one of the things I do with my guys is we call them EMS, you know, what are the EMS? What are the little buggers that are run around in like getting in the way of the things that of the direction and the treasure we want to achieve.

00;17;40;01 - 00;18;05;24
Jason Frishman
Right? They aren't necessarily big dragons, but there are stories. There are entities from our childhood, from our culture, from our own lives that get in the way that they may tend to have us be more reactive or more dismissive or more isolated or whatever. And if we're aware, again, awareness and attending to if we're aware of the imps in our lives, we can do something about it.

00;18;05;24 - 00;18;30;02
Jason Frishman
We can change our relationship to those stories and to those sort of beings in a way that allows us to really sink in to the every day. And that's really the mission. And journeyman is how do we elevate the status of the mundane and the everyday in terms of increasing meaning and value, so that we have these amazing, like intentional relationships with the people we love the most?

00;18;30;05 - 00;18;44;25
Paul Sullivan
So what you're telling me is I should listen to, like next time. I'm like weeding in the garden this week when I'm raking leaves, it is the dishes. Listen to some like John Williams movie scores, like from like Raiders of the Lost Ark or something that, the the, the and I film.

00;18;44;27 - 00;18;47;27
Jason Frishman
The adventures of every day. I mean, you know, like.

00;18;47;29 - 00;18;52;22
Paul Sullivan
I need to score my raking of the leaves. I need a good score to go along with that.

00;18;52;24 - 00;19;08;19
Jason Frishman
100%. In fact, when I was a kid, I'll never forget it. I went to summer camp, and one of the counselors, the moment we walked in the the cabin and the moment we left, he would turn on the radio and turn off the radio. And I asked him. I was like, why are you doing that so much? And he goes, life is better with the soundtrack.

00;19;08;21 - 00;19;44;26
Jason Frishman
So yeah, when you're raking the leaves, when you're doing those things, what is the thing that hypes you up? It's either going to be music or soundtrack hooch. I love that idea. Or a talisman. You know, I keep certain things in my pocket at all time, you know, and they are meaning they are imbued with meaning, imbued with like, either literally tactical objects or practices and, you know, rituals or, you know, rhythms that you create in the day that allow you to, be more present and allow you to, like, remember, like, oh, this is the path I want to walk.

00;19;44;28 - 00;20;11;00
Jason Frishman
These are my kids. This is my partner. This is, you know, and otherwise we get so caught up in in society and culture is push, push, push, push, push. Busy, busy, busy, busy. The socialization of men, which has, you know, there's a whole other political step which you don't necessarily have to go into. But, you know, the socialization of men has been damaging to many people in our lives, including men.

00;20;11;02 - 00;20;13;18
Jason Frishman
You know, the patriarchy doesn't like men either. Frankly.

00;20;13;20 - 00;20;39;23
Paul Sullivan
Right? Right. Unless you're unless you're Barbie. If you've seen the Barbie movie, when Ken comes back, spouting patriarchy, when men come to you and, you know, when they join in the company journey, man, when they do the the connected father retreat, what is it that, you know, they usually get the most out of? Like when they leave, you know, I'm sure they come to you for all different reasons.

00;20;39;25 - 00;20;56;29
Paul Sullivan
Obviously, normally in some some sort of crisis or some sort of concern, some of the questions, some of these driven them like now's the time. But when they come out the other end, you know, what do you hope or how do you hope they're thinking differently or feeling differently than they were when when they came in?

00;20;57;01 - 00;21;14;15
Jason Frishman
It's a great question. I think the first thing that comes to mind, what would I really one of the things that I, I did martial arts for many years, we always used to joke there were secret teachings, right? You learned to punch, but the secret teaching the punching was really something else, right? What a joke. That one of the secret teachings.

00;21;14;15 - 00;21;38;12
Jason Frishman
Not so secret. Now, the secret teachings of journeyman is that our growth and our connections and our, you know, ourselves are built in the challenging times. They're built in the muck. And so the thing that I would want men to take away, really, from this program is the crappy times, the the challenging and obstacles, the things that get in the way, the stressful moments.

00;21;38;14 - 00;21;41;23
Jason Frishman
That's actually like, let's lean into that. Our mindset.

00;21;41;23 - 00;21;54;25
Paul Sullivan
You really sell on this here. Like, come on journey man, and we'll make you feel even worse about yourself than you did before. So when you go home and you're playing John Williams to do the dishes, you'd be like, I'm glad I'm here now with Jason. Jesus.

00;21;54;28 - 00;22;15;03
Jason Frishman
No, no no no no. And I'm saying, and this is almost the opposite, which is you can lean into the challenging times and enjoy the right. You can lean into those moments where we're stressed and we're all those things and know that there's treasure there. And so, you know, that's why it's the secret learning. Because it doesn't always come across so well.

00;22;15;03 - 00;22;42;02
Jason Frishman
But you know what I, what I, what I see with guys and what I want for guys is to really understand that our every day actions have massive impact. You know, God, you know, taking, you know, connecting with our kids or our partner or ourselves on a small consist and, and sort of self compassionate way is what is the way we make the most growth.

00;22;42;04 - 00;23;07;05
Jason Frishman
And so when we're aware of all of these things we know about our amps, we know about our values, we know about these things, and the proverbial stuff hits the fan. We're able to lean into it and not feel worse, but rather feel better and rather know this is temporary. It may be long term temporary, depending on your situation, but I can get through this if I know you know kind of what's important to me.

00;23;07;05 - 00;23;30;01
Jason Frishman
If I know what I'm going after right? If I know that my journey, the treasure on, on my journey is to be more connected. And if right now I'm arguing and I'm not feeling connected, I do. I stop and I slow down. And what techniques or strategies can I use to like be more aware of what's going on in my world and to be more open to what's going on.

00;23;30;02 - 00;23;34;22
Jason Frishman
The people around me, the world, so that we can get through the muck and we can we can.

00;23;34;25 - 00;23;54;28
Paul Sullivan
Say, is it fair to say that some men might be on the wrong journey, and then you're kind of helping them? You get on the right journey is that I don't want to put words in your mouth if you're, you know, or that they're on the right journey, but they've been derailed and you need to read, I don't I beat this metaphor to death, but I'm trying to understand, you know.

00;23;55;01 - 00;24;20;13
Jason Frishman
I would say I never thought about it this way, but but just thinking about it now, I would say more because of the sort of omnipresence of the hero's journey. It's not that men or fathers are on the wrong journey, but we're we're we've only been given half the map. Right. And and so while on some levels, you know, I've had literally had guys in my office say to me, like, if I'm not doing something epic or legendary, what am I?

00;24;20;15 - 00;24;39;28
Jason Frishman
Who am I? You know, what am I? What's my worth? What am I doing? And so the other half of the map is around these foundations. It's not about don't do this journey. You're on the wrong place because that, frankly, as you and I both know, Will will perk up all sorts of defensiveness in men and and it unnecessarily.

00;24;40;02 - 00;24;57;27
Jason Frishman
Right. But if we have the other half of the map, we also know how important it is to, you know, frankly, chop wood, carry water, right, to do the things of life that support all of the the values and beliefs. We we say that we have.

00;24;57;29 - 00;25;14;01
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, I love that. Jason Fishman, yes. Thank you so much for being my guest today on the company of D&D podcast. Where can people find you? Because there's a lot more to unpack than we have time for us to tell the listeners where they can find it.

00;25;14;03 - 00;25;38;26
Jason Frishman
For sure. The, the best way is my my website, which is Journeyman foundation.com, that will bring you to the main page for Connected Fathers program. It'll give you a description of sort of the basics of my the program and the curriculum and the foundational work that we do. It'll also give you a link to the blog, The Innkeepers Journal, which has a wonderful metaphor that people can learn about if they want.

00;25;38;28 - 00;25;56;15
Jason Frishman
And, I'm also available on social media, which I can send you the links for, you know, LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. And frankly, I'm, I'm the only one at journeyman. So if people want to email me at Jason at Nourish connections.com, you'll get a personal reply from me.

00;25;56;17 - 00;26;00;13
Paul Sullivan
Perfect. Thank you again, Jason. I've really enjoyed our time together.

00;26;00;15 - 00;26;04;11
Jason Frishman
Absolutely, Paul. Thank you.

00;26;04;14 - 00;26;22;08
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to another episode of the Company Dads podcast. Really appreciate you tuning in week after week, trying to use this moment here to thank the people who make it possible. Number one, of course, Elder Mira, who is our podcast editor. We also have Skip Sherry Homes for many of you know, for the lead diaries.

00;26;22;08 - 00;26;48;05
Paul Sullivan
He's taken over our social media. Terry Brennan is helping us with our audience development. And Emily Servant is there, each and every day helping with the web development and can't do any of this without, an amazing board, of advisors. So I just want to say thank you to all of you who help. And I want to say thank you to everyone who listens and, hopefully you'll tune in again next week.

00;26;48;05 - 00;26;55;04

Thanks so much.

00;26;55;06 - 00;26;55;14

For.