EP129: What If Video Games Aren't Killing Your Kids' Minds?

Interview with David Graham / eSports Entrepreneur and Parental Ally

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

There are outdoor sports like football, soccer and tennis. And there are eSports like Fortnite and League of Legends. As parents, should we care which ones are children engage in? The answer from a leading eSports entreprenuer may surprise you. It starts with the question: How do we help our kids develop life skills? Listen for 5 tips.

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Transcript

00;00;00;05 - 00;00;38;12
David Graham
It's kind of like your circles of of who you already know, having fun doing the thing you already know with good people surrounding them to keep them all going on the same direction, you know? And so the social aspects are, it's really surprising. I mean, it's why we built it, so it shouldn't be too surprising, but it's how effective it is at bringing kids who, you know, might have smaller circles of friends, sometimes, you know, and getting them into a group of acceptance and just having fun again.

00;00;38;15 - 00;00;59;07
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the company of Dad's podcast. After 120 plus episodes, we're doing something different this season. I'm still your host, Paul Sullivan, and we're still focused on lead dads, working moms, and how small changes at home or work can have a big impact on their lives. What's new is each episode now promises deliver actionable advice on some area of concern at home or at work.

00;00;59;10 - 00;01;25;11
Paul Sullivan
Short. Direct. Again. Actionable. Five questions. Five answers. This week our guest is David Graham, a franchising executive who started Valhalla, a company that allows people to create their own e-sports business or add e-sports to a school curriculum. He's a married father of two boys, 16 and 18, and he's here to talk about video games, something that some parents, myself included, can be hesitant to let their kids participate in, at least excessively.

00;01;25;11 - 00;01;39;11
Paul Sullivan
You know, after all, it's more screen time, more sitting, less activity. He's going to help me understand why perhaps I'm wrong. So today he's going to give us some actionable tips for parents. Welcome, David, to the Company Dads podcast.

00;01;39;13 - 00;01;40;29
David Graham
Yeah, thanks for having me on.

00;01;41;01 - 00;01;47;27
Paul Sullivan
Tell me first, before we go into the five questions, how does Val Howland work? How did it come about and how does it work?

00;01;47;29 - 00;02;09;15
David Graham
Yeah. So people come to us and they say they want to open a new franchise. That's going to be some community. Community involved. Center arena is what we call them. With the purpose of taking kids after school, just like you would go on a T-ball or soccer or anything else. One day a week, they'll come in, come to the arena and practice with a team.

00;02;09;15 - 00;02;29;19
David Graham
They have a coach, they have a curriculum. They have everything that you would need to learn and get better at the game. Which is what we call mastery. But they also are going to get, other things that are you kind of make or are similar to the sporting world. So in traditional sports, you would learn teamwork.

00;02;29;21 - 00;02;52;08
David Graham
You would learn communication. You would learn, camaraderie. All these things, that are needed no matter what you go into in the world. But, you know, half of the kids today aren't even playing and organized sports, so we thought bringing them in one day a week for a practice and then come in another day and play a real game against people across the country.

00;02;52;11 - 00;02;57;28
David Graham
And so, yeah, it's competitive, competitive video games, just like any other traditional sport.

00;02;58;01 - 00;03;11;23
Paul Sullivan
Okay. All right. I like that, you know. Question one then, you know, we I said in the outset, people worry about the kids sitting too much. Too much screen time. Tell us what good comes from kids playing video games.

00;03;11;25 - 00;03;34;02
David Graham
Yeah, it's a good question. There's a lot of different data coming in. And, as we move into esports, which is kind of relatively a new concept for kids, especially what we find is, there's a lot of neurological things that go right. There's a lot of hand-eye coordination, things that go right. There's a lot of communication, things that go right.

00;03;34;04 - 00;03;50;17
David Graham
But, you know, don't discount the fun, too. I mean, like, having fun is okay. You know, we always want to kind of as parents, I think, jump in and say, you know, this is this the best thing that I could be doing with our time? Well, most of the time, kids should be playing and having fun and being kids.

00;03;50;18 - 00;04;07;23
David Graham
And so what I always like to do in my business is this little line, that play, which is I think it's so important for kids with the things that we fundamentally know that they need to learn. And then the more we can kind of be on the same side of the table with our kids in those regards. I think the better.

00;04;07;26 - 00;04;34;16
David Graham
And so, to answer your question, video games in moderation give you better hand-eye coordination. Something like 35% of surgeons make fewer mistakes. But if they were a gamer. So like there's a lot of math out there. There's a lot of statistics I can throw at you. But, at the end of the day, what we want to see is, they're applying these things that they're learning, like communication, leadership and all those things in the real world around them.

00;04;34;19 - 00;04;41;06
Paul Sullivan
I like it's better than that game operation where when you try to pull out a bone, you hit the side to get buzzed.

00;04;41;08 - 00;04;43;23
David Graham
I don't think they're going to be doing that one in med school right.

00;04;43;26 - 00;04;45;17
Paul Sullivan
Now in med school.

00;04;45;20 - 00;05;05;07
David Graham
But, you know, those tabletop games are a part of what we're rolling out now. And actually, it's not just video games, it's going to be tabletop games. It's going to be, you know, we may have a story, international story competition, just just who can finish the game faster. So you can do this and you can do that. Just always being in a group of people.

00;05;05;10 - 00;05;11;07
David Graham
Having fun and enjoying each other like, like the old days of the arcade. You know, I like it.

00;05;11;12 - 00;05;23;04
Paul Sullivan
I like it. All right. Question two. David, what do you see? The flip side question. Yeah. What do you see as the bad? I mean, from from e-sports in video gaming and how to how to parent mitigate that.

00;05;23;06 - 00;05;49;28
David Graham
Yeah. So the the bad part of the online world in the online aspect of gaming, video gaming, specifically, is that you don't really know who your kids are playing with. I mean, and that's a big fear I think a lot of parents have, and justifiably. You you get toxic environments. You get bullying situations, even if it's not an adult playing with them, and it's another kid and they're just being toxic and bullying.

00;05;50;00 - 00;06;11;12
David Graham
That's a that's a problem. Right? And it's one that we identified. The parents most often have is like, I just don't know who they're playing with. And that's that's a scary thing. So what we did is we kind of close the loop and feel whole, and all of our systems and all of our servers and our platforms and all of our chat rooms and everything, or within our network.

00;06;11;12 - 00;06;30;18
David Graham
And so we have something like 10,000 kids that play together, and every one of them is coached, and every one of them is on a team. So it's more it's a more closed. And everybody knows the rules. You know, if you if you step out of line and you break through no toxicity and no bullying rule, you're not going to be able to play next week.

00;06;30;23 - 00;06;47;14
David Graham
And, you know, so it kind of is a self governing system a little bit in that regard. Obviously we do have some filters and all kinds of technology around that as well to make sure our kids are staying safe and our and they can have fun just being themselves.

00;06;47;17 - 00;07;14;01
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. I mean, question three, you just you just touched on that that no bullying. And that's important. Kind of two part question. One. I'd love to have you go a little bit deeper into how what you're building a ball hall and, you know, sort of mitigates the opportunity for bullying or the risk of bullying. But the second is, you know, all these kids, you can come into a center, you know, what's the social aspect of of e-sports talk.

00;07;14;02 - 00;07;25;12
Paul Sullivan
Talk to me about that. Not like, you know, is it mostly, the connection through the game or talk to me about the social aspect that kids get, you know, in the centers, themselves.

00;07;25;14 - 00;07;54;17
David Graham
Yeah, that's a great, that's a great benefit, I think, to what we do. To answer the bullying question first, you know, we've identified a few different key places where bullying occurs. It's going to be when somebody feels like they've been unjustly treated. If it's, you know, if it feels like, or in a very, very close match, those situations happen where they go crazy or, you know, and just kind of blow up a little bit on people.

00;07;54;19 - 00;08;14;17
David Graham
And, and what we've identified those, there's, there's quite a few of those kinds of situations, but we also give them the coping mechanisms in our program to identify them themselves. Like, I know that I just lost a really close match and that I want to slam my keyboard down, or I want to say something to the other team that would make them feel as bad as I do right now.

00;08;14;17 - 00;08;38;21
David Graham
But let's take a step back and we talk about that proactively and part of our learning and our curriculum. That's the kind of the way that we attack this get rid of bullying problem is that we just try to get rid of the bullies. And, and, you know, it's a carrot and a stick if you, if you, if you do what you're supposed to be doing, you can participate more and you can get higher ranks and you can go through the program properly.

00;08;38;21 - 00;09;02;11
David Graham
If you don't, you don't get to play. And you, you know, you get less out of the program, right? And so it's always that way. The social action aspects of this have been actually the most surprising part. You know, we have outside of just playing the games together, you know, they have practices, they have scrimmages, they have, workshops and events, parents night out.

00;09;02;19 - 00;09;31;00
David Graham
And what we're seeing is more and more like kids are having so much fun. They want to bring their next door neighbor, somebody they already know. And so their neighbor will come in. Well, that neighbor knows two people and they'll come in. So it's it's kind of like your circles of of who you already know, having fun doing the thing you already know with good people surrounding them to keep them all going in the same direction, you know, and so the social aspects are, it's very surprising.

00;09;31;01 - 00;09;49;07
David Graham
I mean, it's why we build it. So it shouldn't be too surprising, but it's how effective it is at bringing kids who you know, might have smaller circles of friends, sometimes, you know, and getting them into a group of acceptance and just having fun again, it's really it's really neat to see.

00;09;49;09 - 00;10;13;22
Paul Sullivan
That's great. Yeah. Question for if you're a parent who doesn't come from the gaming world, doesn't come from the e-sports world, you, you did dance, as a kid. You you played baseball, as a kid. You played golf or tennis with your friends now, and you don't fully understand it. How can you help parents to understand what their child is super passionate about?

00;10;13;22 - 00;10;23;02
Paul Sullivan
Might just happens to be e-sports, but it could have been baseball as it was for for some dad when he was young. How do you help them understand that? Yeah. That passion.

00;10;23;05 - 00;10;41;17
David Graham
Look, we put our kids into sports, knowing that they're probably not going to come out as a professional sports ballplayer, right? I mean, I think it would be just as hard for me to bring my kids to football games or soccer games or whatever, and expect that as it would be for you to bring them to a ball home and expect them to go pro in that.

00;10;41;19 - 00;11;06;12
David Graham
So it's not about the game, right? It's it's really about the experience. And and and yes, in traditional sports we have a little bit of athletics involved and you want to get them out and run. And that's good. And I don't want to dissuade against that. But in this world what all everything else about it, you know, the having fun, making friends, building those skill sets that lead to the future of what?

00;11;06;12 - 00;11;30;04
David Graham
No matter what they do. I think those still apply, so. Well, you know, less than 1% of NCAA football players ever go off to be pro. It's something astronomically low. I think in this regard we're not really focused on that. Right. We're not going to make this a career path. So let's let's focus on the good things and the solid things that we can build around them.

00;11;30;04 - 00;11;39;22
David Graham
I always say it's kind of like burying their, you know, spinach in their birthday cake. It's you getting a little bit of something good, even though it seems like it's just fun. Right?

00;11;39;25 - 00;11;41;16
Paul Sullivan
Does that work? Should I put spinach in my kids?

00;11;41;16 - 00;11;49;18
David Graham
But it tastes terrible, actually. You know, I've never tried it, but, it's a it's a metaphor. I think it kind of works here.

00;11;49;21 - 00;12;19;18
Paul Sullivan
Love it. Question five. Our last question here, you know, so often through sports, parents are bonding with their children, even if they're not very good at they can go out and throw a baseball. They can go gotten hit a tennis ball. They can certainly go and watch, you know, gymnastics competition. How do you advise and how do you coach parents to bond with their kids through video games and e-sports when they are profoundly ignorant of what their kids are?

00;12;19;18 - 00;12;39;07
David Graham
Play well with anything, that you do with your kids that you don't know about, the easiest way is to let their let the kid be the expert they love. They love telling mom and dad what to do and I know these video games inside and out and so, you know, switch roles a little bit and just let them talk, let them go.

00;12;39;08 - 00;12;59;27
David Graham
Let them tell you, you know, don't pick this guy. Pick that guy, you know. And and here's his special move. You know, like it's so easy just to get involved because they know everything just about already. And it gives you an opportunity to learn from your kids, which is, you know, from time to time, harder to do than than we'd like to.

00;12;59;29 - 00;13;19;08
David Graham
So, that's what I do. And just, just do it the take the first step and and don't think that you're going to look silly or whatever, because, what I found is our kids are a lot more forgiving in those regards. I just want to spend time with you. So, like, get in there. Look, silly, you know, mess up.

00;13;19;10 - 00;13;37;21
David Graham
And though appreciate the time you spent with them rather than, you know, being angry because you're not, you know, doing it right or something like that. I can remember, Harvey hit here, and my son was all into this link game. This was Zelda game, and I just jumped in. Had no idea what I'd done.

00;13;37;21 - 00;13;58;12
David Graham
I played Zelda as a kid, but, like, not sense. And we spent the entire time that the hurricane was going through, playing this game. Luckily, we didn't lose power. But. And it was in, in we still talk about it today. This was like ten years ago. And we still talk about it today all the time. Like, you remember what we just did that we beat the whole game.

00;13;58;12 - 00;14;10;14
David Graham
It took us like three days. I didn't know what I was doing. I just jumped in. He taught me everything I needed to know and we had a blast doing it. So that's my recommendation. Just don't sweat it. Just jump in.

00;14;10;16 - 00;14;11;19
Paul Sullivan
It's a fantastic one.

00;14;11;19 - 00;14;14;18
David Graham
I think 99% apparently is just being present.

00;14;14;20 - 00;14;22;12
Paul Sullivan
I agree 100%. Just be there and your kids, like you said, they want to be with you and they're watching what you're doing and they love that you're participating with them.

00;14;22;15 - 00;14;24;04
David Graham
Yeah.

00;14;24;06 - 00;14;42;26
Paul Sullivan
David Graham, franchising executive founder of Val Holland, father of two. Thank you for being my guest. It in the Company of Dads podcast. One final question. We always had to have a left field question here. What is your favorite video game and what is your highest score?

00;14;42;29 - 00;15;05;17
David Graham
Oh. Wow. Well, I don't know the exact score. But I know I used to be pretty darn good at Galaga. I went I went pretty deep. I don't even know if you can beat that game. Eventually they just start moving too fast, and it's impossible. But, yeah, I think that was one of my very favorite games growing up, for sure.

00;15;05;20 - 00;15;06;25
Paul Sullivan
And loved it.

00;15;06;27 - 00;15;09;11
David Graham
My quarters at the mall, you know.

00;15;09;14 - 00;15;13;16
Paul Sullivan
Taken it all guide. I don't think kids know what quarters are anymore like, so it's.

00;15;13;21 - 00;15;19;02
David Graham
All wipes and cards and. Yeah, but it's still fun.

00;15;19;04 - 00;15;24;00
Paul Sullivan
David Graham, founder of Owl Hall. And thank you again for being my guest on the Company Dads podcast.

00;15;24;03 - 00;15;27;05
David Graham
Yeah. The worst. Thank you for having me.

00;15;27;08 - 00;15;52;17
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to the Company Dads podcast. I also want to thank the people who make this podcast and everything else that we do at the Company of Dads. Possible. Hell, they're mirror who is our audio producer, Lindsay Decker. And as all of our social media Terry Brennan, who's helping us with the newsletter and audience acquisition, Emily Servin, who is our web maestro, and of course, Evan Roosevelt, who is working side by side with me.

00;15;52;17 - 00;16;10;09
Paul Sullivan
And many of the things that we do here at the Company of Dads. It's a great team. And we're just trying to bring you the best in fatherhood. Remember, the one stop shop for everything is our newsletter, the dad. Sign up at the Company of dads.com backslash. The dad. Thank you again for listening.