EP138: Expanding the Security for Mental Health

Interview with Mike Hermus / Founder of HaleSpring

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Many people who require mental health treatment rarely receive it. Of those that do, some are receiving what they can get - but not necessarily what they need. Mike Hermus - father, entrepreneur and Founder of HaleSpring - shares his personal experience with mental health, and how it pushed him to develop a way to help others. From connecting patients to better treatment options to discussing how parents can support their children’s mental health, Mike embraces his passion and gives great actionable advice for being a part of the solution.

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Transcript

00;00;00;14 - 00;00;28;03
Mike Hermus 
Going through mental health challenges, particularly with a minor child, is incredibly stressful, incredibly emotionally challenging, and it's like a roller coaster ride. And so one of the things that's critical for, again, one or both of the parents to focus on is acting as a kind of a stabilizing influence. During this emotional turbulence.

00;00;28;06 - 00;00;50;20
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the Company of Dads podcast. After 120 plus episodes, we're doing something different this season. I'm still your host, Paul Sullivan, and we're still focused on lead dads working moms, and how small changes at home or work can have a big impact on their lives. What's new is each episode now promises to deliver actionable advice on some area of concern at home or at work.

00;00;50;23 - 00;01;17;26
Paul Sullivan
Short. Direct. Again. Actionable. Five questions, five answers. Our guest today is Mike Hermus. We're going to talk to him about youth mental health. He's the founder of Halespring, which offers a HIPAA compliant platform designed to connect mental health care providers and patients. He's had quite a career in technology, from software companies and entrepreneurial venture to the wildly popular but short lived Houseparty app to the Department of Homeland Security.

00;01;17;28 - 00;01;24;18
Paul Sullivan
He's a father of two teenage kids and lives in southern Connecticut. Welcome, Mike, to the company Dads podcast.

00;01;24;21 - 00;01;26;00
Mike Hermus 
Thanks for having me.

00;01;26;02 - 00;01;50;06
Paul Sullivan
You know, being an entrepreneur is not easy. It's, time consuming. It's not meant, for everyone. You have, you know, crazy, you know, short, deadlines that you wouldn't have at a larger company, you know, for you as a dad of two. How did you combine your your passion to be, an entrepreneur with the certainly your desire to be to be a good dad.

00;01;50;08 - 00;02;06;24
Mike Hermus 
It's a great question. And I think, look, it's a challenge for any parent, mother or father who has any kind of demanding job. I think whether to start up or not to to kind of be present, for their kids, I guess you could say it's probably a challenge for, for any parent, even if they don't have a demanding job.

00;02;06;24 - 00;02;24;25
Mike Hermus 
There's so many things as adults that that distract us, impulse away from being with our children. Right. And I wish I could say I had a completely figuring out, I can only say I, I, you know, I tried the best I could and some of the things that I did, I hope worked. You know, look, one thing that can be a real hardship is any time you have to travel away from home, right?

00;02;24;25 - 00;02;43;04
Mike Hermus 
And as a, as an entrepreneur, that that can be frequent. Again, other jobs that could be frequent. In fact, I would say where that was most difficult for me was when I was at Homeland Security, and I was away every week the whole workweek, for years for, for several years on end. And that was that was really challenging.

00;02;43;06 - 00;02;44;16
Paul Sullivan
And you were in DC for that year.

00;02;44;18 - 00;03;03;08
Mike Hermus 
I was in DC. Right. And we still we still lived in southern Connecticut. And in that situation. Right. The best you know, what I, what I arrived at, which I think is, I guess, common sense, but you know, when when you're away, you know, you of course, can use technology to try to stay connected. It's very hard if you're out and busy and doing things when you're home.

00;03;03;08 - 00;03;25;16
Mike Hermus 
You have to really make that time count, right? You have to really try to make the home time focused on being with the family. And of course, that's not easier said than done, because presumably there are several people that need quality time from you. But, really try to focus on, on activities that that can create, you know, bonds and memories, laughter and and that's what I did.

00;03;25;16 - 00;03;42;28
Mike Hermus 
So when I was home, you know, we would really try to focus on those things. And I try to just keep in mind when I'm home, this is this is my number one mission at home is to be able to spend time with the family. If you work from home, on the other hand, which I do now currently as a, as an entrepreneur, a lot of entrepreneurs probably do these days.

00;03;43;00 - 00;04;03;02
Mike Hermus 
You can sometimes have the opposite problem, right? Like you're you're home all the time, but you're also never away from the office. And so there's always one last thing to do. And, you know, the laptop is just right over there. So, you know, of course, I think defining some boundaries for your work life and some some space and some time to really focus on family is important.

00;04;03;05 - 00;04;22;07
Mike Hermus 
But I think I really like to focus on and this changes as the, as the, as the age of the children changes, obviously. But it's really meeting them where they are. Right. So, you know, rather than trying to do things that I want to do in my free time, you know, I try to find things I know the kids want to do, even if it's not my preferred activity, and spend some time with them there.

00;04;22;09 - 00;04;38;07
Mike Hermus 
And like for example, my youngest child really enjoys watching him some Netflix shows. That wouldn't be my preference, but we can watch them together. And then we have some of the bond over. And my oldest child likes to, to go to the bookstore and get coffee afterwards. And so that's kind of a ritual outing for us. And those things really, really help.

00;04;38;09 - 00;04;43;11
Paul Sullivan
Because when you're watching those, you know, Netflix shows, you're like, wait a second, I worked at Homeland Security. That's not really how it is.

00;04;43;18 - 00;04;46;12
Mike Hermus 
Like, I think.

00;04;46;15 - 00;05;01;25
Paul Sullivan
I got to ask you this before we get on to the second question here, when you work, in a senior role at the Department of Homeland Security, do you get something above like TSA pre or something above Homeland Security to get through? The airport. Do you have, like a special badge or a wave or anything like that?

00;05;01;26 - 00;05;24;06
Mike Hermus 
You know, like you, I wish, the reality is that that one of the things that most people who work outside the government don't know about it is there are very few perks for working in government, unless you're like at some super, super senior level. In fact, it's mostly anti perks. We did we did get free TSA PreCheck for, for having if you had a top secret clearance and you work at the Department of Homeland Security, we got we didn't have to pay for TSA.

00;05;24;06 - 00;05;25;26
Mike Hermus 
That was the best perk that I got.

00;05;25;28 - 00;05;34;08
Paul Sullivan
All right, all right. That's good. That's fair. No, I mean, because I, you know, when we travel, we get that, we get the global entry. We got the clear, you know, it's all about getting through as quickly as you can.

00;05;34;09 - 00;05;37;28
Mike Hermus 
That's right. Yeah. No. No shortcuts, no shortcuts. That way. The same lines that everyone else.

00;05;38;01 - 00;05;55;13
Paul Sullivan
On that question too. You know, again, like I said, Deirdre, you've had quite a career, doing all kinds of different things in the technology space. What made you pivot into mental health and create what is now health, right.

00;05;55;16 - 00;06;17;12
Mike Hermus 
Yeah. It's a great that's not a good question. So I think look, you can probably if if you take a look at my background, it may or may not be a parent, but I've, I've always been most attracted to roles in organizations that have a mission of some kind other than just making money. You know, even in my first, my first startup was actually in the financial services space, which most folks don't associate with mission based, you know, organizations.

00;06;17;12 - 00;06;37;27
Mike Hermus 
But our goal was to actually democratize the after hours trading field and let retail investors trade after hours where were previously only institutions could have. And that, you know, that was important to me, that we were trying to do something to to really level the playing field. I worked, in a company that, brought environmental health and safety solutions to, to corporations.

00;06;37;27 - 00;07;03;08
Mike Hermus 
Right. And ostensibly through that could help potentially make the environment better. So I've always kind of been attracted, like many people, I'm sure, to things where I can use my skills and experience to make an impact, to make a difference in the world. And because the need for software technology is kind of ubiquitous today, I'm pretty fortunate that you know that my skills can really be applied to almost any domain.

00;07;03;11 - 00;07;22;29
Mike Hermus 
And, and of course, I also like challenges, like many folks. And while large organizations, all sorts of organizations have their own challenges, for example, the Department of Homeland Security, trying to bring change to an organization that large and bureaucratic is incredibly difficult and requires a whole set of skills that, you know, are really challenging. And I enjoyed that immensely.

00;07;22;29 - 00;07;48;20
Mike Hermus 
It was very satisfying building something from scratch. Right. Creating something from nothing is in many ways the ultimate challenge for for some people and for me. And I think I've always been a builder at Core in my DNA, and that's why startups have always attracted me. And so and so, given some of the personal experience I've had in the, in the mental health space, and I will probably talk a bit more about that, later.

00;07;48;23 - 00;08;11;03
Mike Hermus 
When the opportunity came for me to kind of consider what was what was next, it seemed like an easy decision to try to to try to make an impact in this space. An easy decision. Not an easy path necessarily. But, you know, there is something immensely compelling about using personal struggles, to try to build something that can make can make life better for other people.

00;08;11;06 - 00;08;22;28
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. What exactly did to break it down in four sentences? What exactly does Hale spring do? You know, how does it make that connection between the mental health care provider and the potential patient?

00;08;23;01 - 00;08;51;16
Mike Hermus 
Yeah. So I don't know. Let's I'll try my best to break it down into four sentences, but, specifically, look, there there are, there are a couple problems we're trying to solve. One of them you mentioned, which is the connection between the provider and the patients. And we're trying to solve that by creating a richer, more comprehensive, resource, you know, database, if you will, of not just individual providers, but also other kinds of programs and provider, and treatment options that are really, really hard to find.

00;08;51;18 - 00;08;54;14
Mike Hermus 
On today's internet, and so.

00;08;54;21 - 00;08;55;14
Paul Sullivan
For example.

00;08;55;20 - 00;09;20;16
Mike Hermus 
For example, so for example, intensive outpatient programs or residential programs or even group therapy programs, all of which are really important if you have challenges that are beyond the kind of, you know, individual therapy needs, but are really, really hard to find. Right now. So one of the things that you'll hear about, talk about in mental health circles is the patient provider fit.

00;09;20;18 - 00;09;48;03
Mike Hermus 
And you have to have a good fit between the patient and the provider in order to get better outcomes. Because if that fits not there, you know, the the treatment doesn't work. And so unfortunately for most folks, we're limited to getting whatever therapy is proximate to us or someone told us about or has an open slot. But the but our thesis says the more the liquid transparent the marketplace is, of providers and services, the better that patient provider can become.

00;09;48;03 - 00;10;13;15
Mike Hermus 
And so we're aiming to try to improve that. So that's probably one that we're trying to solve. The other which is kind of not directly related to patients and providers, is really more about how providers deliver therapy or deliver services is the fact that there's an incredible void in communication and collaboration. So we're trying to improve the way that providers communicate and collaborate with each other in order to improve the outcomes they can deliver in mental health treatment.

00;10;13;18 - 00;10;36;11
Paul Sullivan
You know, I've read a lot about this, and I'm not sure if it is that the data is accurate, but is it true that there is a dearth of mental health care providers in this country that sort of, you know, we talk about post Covid, people are sort of coming to terms with their mental health and and trying to help, but is there I mean, what is the the supply and demand equation around mental health care providers and that mental health care need?

00;10;36;14 - 00;10;52;21
Mike Hermus 
Yeah, I think the I think the answer is there absolutely is a supply demand imbalance. And there is a there are there is a dearth of providers. Exactly what the data says is harder to suss out because there's there's how many providers are available. There's how many people can pay for that. There's access to insurance and resources to pay for it.

00;10;52;24 - 00;11;03;08
Mike Hermus 
But by most estimates, less than half of the people who need mental health treatment get mental health treatment. And a big part of that is because of the supply demand imbalance.

00;11;03;10 - 00;11;24;18
Paul Sullivan
Question three I alluded to there. You know, mental health is so important. It's starting to get, you know, more support. People are able to talk about it more openly, but they're still, you know, taboos, you know, around it, unfortunately, you know, what role, can a dad play in supporting, you know, mental health for themselves, for their families, for their, their children?

00;11;24;18 - 00;11;26;26
Paul Sullivan
What's that role that the dad has in this.

00;11;26;28 - 00;11;59;15
Mike Hermus 
Is interesting area because of course, all families and family dynamics are unique and, and, and and of course, as you probably know better than anyone, right. Traditional gender roles have and are continuing to evolve. Right. But have been, in my experience, mothers are more likely to be the emotional caretakers of the children in many households. And and they're therefore kind of square in the crosshairs, front and center for any, you know, children that are experiencing mental health challenges, which often involve emotional issues, emotional dysregulation of some kind.

00;11;59;17 - 00;12;29;23
Mike Hermus 
And it also happens that mental health is is a is a uniquely female dominated field. By most estimates, around 70% of of providers and mental health providers therapists are are women. With all this is context, right? I think there are a number of things that fathers can and should play a significant role in. And and a major caveat here, because I won't step on landmines, is that, anything these kinds of these suggestions are not intended to apply to mothers who can't or shouldn't do these things.

00;12;29;26 - 00;12;59;09
Mike Hermus 
Well, in many cases, they can. And in fact, I guess my point would be that at least one parent should be focused on a few of the things I'm going to mention here. Going through mental health challenges, particularly with a minor child, is incredibly stressful, incredibly emotionally challenging, and it's like a roller coaster ride. And so one of the things that is critical for, again, one or both of the parents to focus on is acting as a kind of a stabilizing influence.

00;12;59;11 - 00;13;23;29
Mike Hermus 
During this emotional turbulence. And that doesn't mean telling everybody to calm down. Just simmer down. It means. Right, understanding that it's an emotional time and kind of trying to remain calm as much as possible, helping to, you know, be that rock, be that shoulder to, to lean on, and help the family and then arrive at the right decision while you're navigating a really complex and stressful situation.

00;13;24;05 - 00;13;47;18
Mike Hermus 
And I think that's critical. Like I said, that may be a role that some fathers feel comfortable playing. Yeah. Another kind of corollary similar to that is, is really being a good listener. Right. And this is something that I think many fathers, many men in general, have to kind of work at a little bit. I know for myself personally, I always like to jump right into here's the solution, here's all the problems.

00;13;47;18 - 00;14;06;01
Mike Hermus 
How do we solve the problem? Right? But particularly when it comes to mental health challenges, that doesn't often work very well. And in fact, in many time, many cases, you have to you have to actually simply validate the problems, the challenges, the feelings, the emotions that your child is going through without trying to fix it. And that's really hard.

00;14;06;01 - 00;14;21;10
Mike Hermus 
And it's really hard for a lot of people. It's really hard for a lot of dads. But doing that is really important because if you try to fix the problem, it can, you know, without doing that, it can be counterproductive. Sometimes you can that you can get them to ask for that help, that guidance to solving the problem.

00;14;21;10 - 00;14;42;09
Mike Hermus 
And that's when it can be really productive to, to do. Another thing that I found is really helpful. And again, it can be a comfortable task, for, for dads, is really helping with, with the research and analysis of, of treatment options because there's so much conflicting information out there. Again. So one of the things where we're trying to help make better, but there's so the information is fragmented.

00;14;42;09 - 00;14;54;21
Mike Hermus 
What you can find is often, conflicting, like I said. And of course, it's an incredibly important decision to make. And so sifting through that, you know, figuring out what, what's what is really important task.

00;14;54;23 - 00;15;19;22
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. Thank you. You know, question for you sort of alluded to having, you know, a personal journey as a parent around, you know, teenage mental health. I don't want to ask you to share more than you want to, but when you think about your own journey, you know, what did you learn in terms of what you know a parent can do to support their child in that child's, you know, mental health journey?

00;15;19;22 - 00;15;27;14
Paul Sullivan
Both, you know, the things that that may have, worked, and perhaps the things that, you know, parents may want to, you know, stay away from.

00;15;27;16 - 00;15;46;20
Mike Hermus 
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and look, I'm happy to share a little bit about my journey because I think that's core to why I'm doing what I'm doing, which is, you know, one one of my children, one of our children started to encounter real mental health challenges right around middle school and beginning a middle school, actually, cabinet earlier, but we didn't pick up on it, which is actually, you know, another challenge, right?

00;15;46;22 - 00;16;10;07
Mike Hermus 
And without going into too many details, it this led to a years long period of trying to understand these issues, and of course, navigate and get the right treatment, which, as I mentioned before, can be incredibly stressful and emotional depending on the severity of the issues. And that makes it a really hard time, the worst time to be making kind of learning and making it, trying to evaluate complex information and make really important decisions.

00;16;10;07 - 00;16;26;07
Mike Hermus 
When you're under duress. And, and so what we learned, you know, what I learned through that, is several things. And, a couple that led to directly to the, like I said, the founding of Health Spring. We found that a lot of things in the ecosystem are not working the way they probably should. They're kind of broken.

00;16;26;09 - 00;16;53;20
Mike Hermus 
And, you know, a couple of me already alluded to, one is it's really hard to find the right treatment. And two, is that that there's really staggering lack of communication and collaboration between providers when they're delivering treatment to your to your child that, that, that would ultimately be beneficial if it happened properly. So one of the things that, you know, you as a parent can do, I think, you know, a few things I mentioned earlier, right?

00;16;53;23 - 00;17;25;06
Mike Hermus 
As a father's role meaning, meaning calm and levelheaded, being a good listener, doing good research. One thing that we found really, really important and again, every situation is different. But I know can be it was difficult for us and I know can be difficult for a lot of parents at the beginning, is that you often come to this early conclusion that that whatever the challenge your child is experiencing emotionally, with behavior, with attitude, whatever it is, that they can probably just change it if they just try hard enough.

00;17;25;06 - 00;17;57;16
Mike Hermus 
Right? It's just, you know, it's like they're misbehaving. Something's going wrong. We just just don't do that. And, and, and unfortunately, this is rarely the case when it comes to mental health issues. And treating it as if treating your child as if that is the case can be really, really counterproductive. You know, many times when you're dealing with, minor children, there's going to be some sort of family or parent therapy involved in the treatment and, and trying to understand your child's diagnosis and, not simply wish it away is really, really critical.

00;17;57;23 - 00;18;15;19
Mike Hermus 
In order to help support their treatment in the most effective way. There is a well-established treatment technique that's used for a lot of things these these days called, DBT or dialectical behavior therapy. And it has a lot of really good practical techniques for both parents and kids dealing with issues. But one of the things they teach is called radical acceptance.

00;18;15;21 - 00;18;33;00
Mike Hermus 
And it basically means accepting the present moment even when it's difficult or painful. Not just trying to avoid it. That's critical to kind of understand as you're dealing with these things, because if you can't do that, you know, if you can't accept reality, it's really hard to change it. And to improve it. Right. And so that's that's critical.

00;18;33;02 - 00;18;54;11
Mike Hermus 
They do also really stress the importance of validation. Like I mentioned earlier, validating your feelings and your experiences of your child. But I think the thing that that I find the most helpful to remember, is that and this also comes from, is that remember, your child is probably doing the best they can at any given moment.

00;18;54;13 - 00;19;03;18
Mike Hermus 
But that doesn't mean that they don't need to get better. They don't need to improve, and they probably want to improve. They just don't know how to without help. Yeah, that's really important.

00;19;03;20 - 00;19;28;23
Paul Sullivan
This has been wonderful. Like, you know, question five you've gone through a lot of things. You're creating a platform. You you've sort of listed, you know, what parents can do. But, you know, listening to this, I could imagine for a parent at the beginning of a journey, whether the child is ten, 15, 20, you know, 25 or whatever, it could seem overwhelming or could seemed the sense of like, where do I even start?

00;19;28;25 - 00;19;50;26
Paul Sullivan
Is this the am I right, am I wrong? What do I do here? If you could think of just, you know, a few things, a few tips that you give, you know, those parents at the beginning of the journey where they suspect that their child needs more, more support around his or her mental health? What would those tips be that that you give to those parents just starting out?

00;19;50;28 - 00;20;21;28
Mike Hermus 
Yeah, I think that most important thing would be would be ask for help wherever you can find it in the early days, right? Like, don't don't try to keep this. There's a very good chance that that people, you know, either in your family or friends have gone through something close to or similar to what you're going through because this is, you know, prevalent and, and you can learn so much from others, that can set you on the, on a better path earlier and help you avoid mistakes.

00;20;21;28 - 00;20;52;07
Mike Hermus 
So, so as you mentioned previously, there is a stigma and a challenge in talking about this kind of thing. Which is really unfortunate because it then inhibits conversations like that from happening. But but I would say probably the most important thing is don't be afraid to talk to people about what your experiencing, because you never know who is going to have really, really useful, and helpful advice or a resource or, actual treatment option that you wouldn't have have encountered either, without that.

00;20;52;07 - 00;21;16;09
Mike Hermus 
And so, don't be afraid to have that conversation and keep an open mind. Of course, you have to learn and ask questions, right? You have to, as I mentioned, to really you have to understand what's going on. And it's not easy to do because sometimes, even with extended therapy and other treatment, there's not a clear reason, rationale, diagnosis for what's going on with your child.

00;21;16;09 - 00;21;41;10
Mike Hermus 
That can be really challenging. But but keeping an open mind to learning and understanding, and again, accepting that that that there's something that has to be improved and it's been worked on here is critical because again, that allows you to use whatever skills, resources you have at your disposal, and apply them in the right direction. Because if you don't understand what the problem is, you can't you can't solve it.

00;21;41;10 - 00;22;05;22
Mike Hermus 
Right? So I think those are some of the most important things that I would say at the early stages of a journey like this. And, you know. Yeah, ask those questions, be be, be open, but also be be skeptical. You have to be just like in normal and in traditional health care, where you have to be an advocate for yourself or for your child, you know, because most medical professionals are well-meaning and competent folks.

00;22;05;28 - 00;22;15;20
Mike Hermus 
They're all just human. And so you have you, at the end of the day, the only person that cares the most about your child's well-being. And you have to you have to advocate for them.

00;22;15;22 - 00;22;33;26
Paul Sullivan
You know, as a sort of follow on to that that last question. Listen to this. You know, you have two kids. I have three kids. Many people have more than, than than one child when you're the parent. And as a parent, I'm always saying stuff like an affair doesn't mean equal. Like just because you got an ice cream today doesn't mean, you know, you said you get an ice cream.

00;22;33;26 - 00;22;49;12
Paul Sullivan
You know what? Will it all work out? But when it comes to something like this, when it's just as you talk about this, this journey, this mental health journey, what advice you give to parents to make sure that you know that they're they're equitable, that you know, they perhaps you they definitely will need to spend more time, with this one child.

00;22;49;12 - 00;22;59;04
Paul Sullivan
But but what do they do with the other children that they have? So those children don't feel, you know, left out, forgotten, you know, any number of negative things.

00;22;59;07 - 00;23;20;10
Mike Hermus 
So it is a really great point and a big challenge, and it's a challenge that we experienced in our family for sure. And, you know, there's at the end of the day, you're unlikely to to balance it out completely, right? Particularly if it's a significant issue. Because it does take up so much emotional, you know, bandwidth, if you will, as well as other kinds of bandwidth, right?

00;23;20;11 - 00;23;56;01
Mike Hermus 
Possibly financial and others. But just like, you know, when I mentioned earlier about trying to be present for your kids and making space and time and doing making time count, I would say the same thing goes here, which is trying to maybe emphasize quality over quantity, you know, for, for another child, the children that that maybe aren't the focus at that particular time, which is simply, I think, simply remembering that they but they are equally important, if not getting equal amounts of attention and treatment is goes a very, very long way in trying to do something special every now and again, to spend time with them and to focus on them.

00;23;56;03 - 00;24;04;09
Mike Hermus 
You know, I think it was a really long way, even if it's not equal in time and everything else. I think that that can really help.

00;24;04;12 - 00;24;17;02
Paul Sullivan
Mike Hermes, father of two, founder of Hell Spring, which is connecting mental health providers with patients. Thank you so much for being my guest today on the company Dads podcast.

00;24;17;05 - 00;24;20;10
Mike Hermus 
Board for having me. It was it was really great.

00;24;20;13 - 00;24;42;27
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to the company The Dads podcast. I also want to thank the people who make this podcast and everything else that we do. The company dads possible hell, Mira Lee's our audio producer Lindsay Decker handles all of our social media. Terry Brennan, who's helping us with the news that are an audience acquisition, Emily Servin, who is our web maestro, and of course.

00;24;43;00 - 00;24;49;03

Evan Roosevelt, who is working side by side with me. And many of the things that we do here at the Company of Dads.

00;24;49;03 - 00;25;03;13
Paul Sullivan
It's a great team. And we're we're just trying to bring you the best in fatherhood. Remember, the one stop shop for everything is our newsletter, the dad sign up at the Company of dads.com backslash. The dad. Thank you again for listening.