EP148: Breaking the Masculine Myth

Interview with Jim Chastain / Founder of Reality Check

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

Men want to grow, but too often feel like they can’t without losing a part of themselves. Jim Chastain is a father of two, founder of the market research firm Reality Check, and now a researcher of men and modern masculinity. He discusses the five core insights that hold men back - from the pressure to always prove rather than improve, to the conflicting narratives of what a man “should” be. Jim explains why growth is often stigmatized as weakness, how social expectations keep men stuck, and why “only-ness” can be more isolating than loneliness.

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Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;24;18
Jim Chastain
I think we have a vocabulary problem as men, and I think when we hear certain words, we shut down. I think shame is one of those words. I think toxic is toxic. You know, toxicity, you know, is a word, that's really bringing us some level of shame. And so we don't really want to talk further about that.

00;00;24;20 - 00;00;46;03
Jim Chastain
And so I look for ways to help guys express themselves emotionally without shutting down. And I don't I don't use the word weakness. They don't use the word weakness. I ask the question, when did you feel like a man?

00;00;46;05 - 00;01;13;07
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the company of Dads podcast. I'm your host, Paul Sullivan. We're focused on lead dads, working moms, and how small changes at home or work can have a big impact on their lives. Each episode promises to deliver actionable advice on some area of concern at home or at work. Short. Direct. Again. Actionable. Five questions. Five answers. Today, our guest is Jim Chastain, a father of two adult children, boy and a girl.

00;01;13;10 - 00;01;32;17
Paul Sullivan
Jim spent his career doing high level market research at a firm he founded called Reality Check. His goal was to tell companies with their customers who really wanted to buy something you think they know, but often they did not. A native of Saint Louis, he's recently divorced and divides his time now between New York, Colorado and San Francisco.

00;01;32;20 - 00;01;48;06
Paul Sullivan
He's turned his research eye to men in an effort to figure out what holds them back. This is exactly the type of reality check we love on the Company of Dads podcast. Welcome, Jim, for being our guest today.

00;01;48;08 - 00;01;50;15
Jim Chastain
Thanks for having me, Paul. This is really fun.

00;01;50;22 - 00;02;08;21
Paul Sullivan
I'm going to be honest, up front here. And not just because, people watching this on video will see the big red dot on my nose, a generated by one of my daughters, banging into me. I'm going to be honest in a different way that we may cheat here. Jim. On the five questions for the first time.

00;02;08;23 - 00;02;11;11
Paul Sullivan
Because I think you're going to have a lot of questions for you. So I'm looking for.

00;02;11;12 - 00;02;16;02
Jim Chastain
Okay. Okay. Do I get paid more for each additional question?

00;02;16;05 - 00;02;25;16
Paul Sullivan
Only for answers are good. If not. Okay, then we'll edit them out and it'll look funny because it'll only be three at the end. And people will say they promised more than five, and now they're only three, so.

00;02;25;17 - 00;02;31;12
Jim Chastain
Oh my God. Well, no, it's not going to be my problem okay. It's not going to be my problem.

00;02;31;14 - 00;02;55;19
Paul Sullivan
All right. So one of the things you focused on with your research is what you call, the five core insights that hold men back. And so question one, you know, what are these insights? Don't don't don't leave us hanging here. But two. How did you how did you come up with them? How did you realize that these were the five things that often hold them back?

00;02;55;21 - 00;03;04;03
Jim Chastain
I have discussions with guys, about things they don't typically talk about. And so that that's.

00;03;04;05 - 00;03;06;09
Paul Sullivan
For example, for example.

00;03;06;12 - 00;03;30;03
Jim Chastain
For example, I ask some questions like, tell me about the time when you felt most like a man. I mean, about the time when you felt at least like a man. Tell me about your masculine influences growing up. Tell me about them now. You know, tell me about a time when you for. Excuse me felt really ashamed.

00;03;30;03 - 00;03;42;22
Jim Chastain
Or you mean to tell me about a time, when you felt really proud? So I get them to talk about things. They're not our to stop and think about things, I should say. Yeah. They're not used to talking about.

00;03;42;24 - 00;03;55;23
Paul Sullivan
Those are tough questions. And when you ask them is they're often like, an extended pause or are they coming right back at you and say, oh, yeah, this is the time I felt most like a man, or at least like a man.

00;03;55;25 - 00;04;14;27
Jim Chastain
A little bit of both. A little bit of both. Some guys kind of know that off the top of their head, which is a little shocking when you think about it. Yeah. But a lot of times guys say, I need to think about that for a minute. And that's a which is, by the way, exactly what I want them to do.

00;04;15;00 - 00;04;15;21
Jim Chastain
Because I think.

00;04;15;21 - 00;04;30;17
Paul Sullivan
It's a different. So what's the. Because I think I'd have to think about it for a minute. What's the difference between the guys who has you do. That's a good question. Let me think about it for a minute. And the guys who, like, immediately know. Here's the answer. Is there any different?

00;04;30;19 - 00;04;55;22
Jim Chastain
I feel like the guys who who are honest and, say that they want to stop and think about it, are really going to give me, a thoughtful answer. And, and I feel like the guys who who, respond quickly are often guys who do what a lot of us do as men, which is I want to tell you what I know as quickly as I possibly can.

00;04;55;24 - 00;04;59;27
Paul Sullivan
So not going deeper down there, giving you, like, a superficial answer.

00;04;59;29 - 00;05;29;12
Jim Chastain
Yeah. Yeah. And and, one of the interesting things about that question, by the way, are the answers to that question are the least like a man. Answers all have a common theme, which I'll tell you about, but what's what's not in the least. Like a man answers is, I got beat up, right? You know, or, like, physically intimidated in some way.

00;05;29;14 - 00;05;59;22
Jim Chastain
The at least like a man answers are almost all. I'd say 90. And honestly, 99% of the guys I've talked to the least like a man. Answers are moments when they felt they were revealing weakness. I can't I a time when I couldn't, I couldn't afford to buy my girlfriend. She had to pay. I just lost my job, and I had to go home and tell my spouse.

00;05;59;24 - 00;06;26;05
Jim Chastain
Wow. You know, you know, it's stuff that's that really hits to the core, kind of weakness and and a word I don't like use very much shame, that men carry with them. And so, you know, getting them to stop and talk about that and say that out loud is actually a really healthy thing for that.

00;06;26;07 - 00;06;31;06
Jim Chastain
And I'm not a therapist, so I'm not trying to. You know, help them in that way, but I, I, I'm not trying.

00;06;31;06 - 00;06;33;20
Paul Sullivan
To help them. I'm just trying to put them in an awkward position. There's no.

00;06;33;20 - 00;06;37;08
Jim Chastain
Help. But, you know, I I'm trying to help. Okay.

00;06;37;10 - 00;06;42;16
Paul Sullivan
Thanks. Why are you, Why don't you like to use the word shame? But you're okay using the word weakness?

00;06;42;18 - 00;06;49;20
Jim Chastain
I think that we have, I think we have a vocabulary problem as men.

00;06;49;22 - 00;06;50;13
Paul Sullivan
Okay.

00;06;50;16 - 00;07;20;10
Jim Chastain
And I think when we hear certain words, we shut down. I think shame is one of those words. I think toxic is toxic. You know, toxicity. You know, is a word, that's really bringing us some level of shame. And so we don't really want to talk further about that. Yeah. And so I, I look for ways to help guys express themselves emotionally without shutting down.

00;07;20;12 - 00;07;28;22
Jim Chastain
And I don't I don't use the word weakness. They don't use the word weakness. I asked the question, when did you feel like a man?

00;07;28;24 - 00;07;32;27
Paul Sullivan
And then you quickly beat them in arm wrestling just to drive that point. Is that what you do?

00;07;33;00 - 00;07;49;13
Jim Chastain
Yeah. And then I beat them and arm wrestling. And, then I swear at them, you know, I tell them, you know, that they're, you know, they're the punk that, you know, that I thought they would be. You know, stuff like that, just to get them to open.

00;07;49;13 - 00;07;53;10
Paul Sullivan
Up, disapprove that you're not a therapist and you're not there to help. But I like that.

00;07;53;12 - 00;07;54;13
Jim Chastain
I say, all.

00;07;54;13 - 00;08;11;11
Paul Sullivan
Right, you didn't tell me the five, but I don't care because you've told me before, so I know what they are. So I go, okay, that's going to be the next five questions there. Okay. Great. You have more than that. So the question to ish. One of the five core insights is we have a deep fear of revealing weakness.

00;08;11;18 - 00;08;29;04
Paul Sullivan
And that fear constantly puts us into a prove versus improved paradox. And you just you just kind of touched on that a bit that they all kind of fall loose, like, man, the weakness, category. You say we often choose to prove ourselves at the expense of improving without even noticing what we're doing. What does all that mean?

00;08;29;06 - 00;08;35;02
Paul Sullivan
Proving ourselves versus improving. What does that mean in practical terms? For for men?

00;08;35;04 - 00;09;11;08
Jim Chastain
We like to, we like to prove our point. And and we, we make a choice, oftentimes improving our point. Or as some might call, mansplaining. The, you know, that we, we sometimes are choosing that instead of asking a question, let's say, curiosity can actually scare a lot of guys, because if I ask a question, think about a young guy in a meeting, you know, in a corporate setting, and he's sitting there thinking, there's a discussion going on.

00;09;11;12 - 00;09;34;01
Jim Chastain
I think I'm most and know that, but I don't know that. But I'm not going to ask the question, because I'm afraid they're going to think less of me. I'm not very good at my job. I'm not well informed. You know, there's all sorts of things that sort of unconsciously and somewhat consciously can kind of race to a guy's head and go.

00;09;34;04 - 00;09;42;00
Jim Chastain
And so now I'm in a okay, do I want to try to prove what I know? So I'm going to raise my hand and make a point, or I'm going to raise my hand.

00;09;42;00 - 00;09;53;26
Paul Sullivan
This question and I hate that. I hate I hate the the making the point masquerading as a question, you know. On and, like. Yes, there is no question there.

00;09;53;28 - 00;10;00;26
Jim Chastain
We. Oh, well, this is I mean, you've obviously listened to a lot of politicians from so.

00;10;00;28 - 00;10;22;12
Jim Chastain
Oh but but it happens to all of us and we don't we don't even recognize it. We don't recognize making that choice. We might recognize somewhere that, like, I don't want to reveal. I don't, you know, I mean, we can't even ask for directions. You know, if we can't ask for directions, you know, how can we?

00;10;22;12 - 00;10;40;13
Paul Sullivan
I don't think I'm your target market because literally my whole career is as a journalist. So I ask questions all the time, and they all came from a place of, I don't know. And like, nobody asked directions of. But before that, that's true. I was like, where the heck am I? I probably because I hate driving.

00;10;40;13 - 00;10;53;13
Paul Sullivan
I hate, like, if I could walk all the time, I'd be much happier. Or take a bus or take a train or plane. I hate driving, so if I was lost on a dime, goddamn it, where am I? And I would ask, what's wrong? What's wrong with me, Jim? Why do I ask questions all the time? And why am I here?

00;10;53;14 - 00;11;15;21
Jim Chastain
Well, I think there's a lot right with your actions. There's a lot right with you, actually. I say, I, I will tell a story. But here's how. When when you used to have to ask for directions, here's how I would do it. I decide I come in with a hypothesis. You know, you don't just walk into a store somewhere in the middle of the country and go, I'm lost.

00;11;15;24 - 00;11;16;15
Jim Chastain
You're walking.

00;11;16;17 - 00;11;19;18
Paul Sullivan
You walk in and say, my kids think I'm lost. But what do they know now?

00;11;19;23 - 00;11;42;08
Jim Chastain
Oh, no, no, no, no. You walk in and say and say. Listen, I'm trying to get to Boston. I think if I stay on 93, and I get off at this certain exit that I'm going to get there. Is that right? So I'm coming in with a hypothesis. I'm not just saying I'm fucking lost.

00;11;42;10 - 00;11;58;03
Paul Sullivan
This is scary, Jim. I'm glad I didn't know you when you're in college because you went to school in Kansas, which is Great Plains wide open. And I'm sure the drive between, Kansas and Missouri, as they call it in Missouri,

00;11;58;06 - 00;11;59;23
Jim Chastain
As the rural politicians call it.

00;11;59;23 - 00;12;07;13
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. If you took a wrong turn, like, there's not exactly like a Starbucks in the corner. McDonald's on the corner. That's it. You could just keep going.

00;12;07;16 - 00;12;13;03
Jim Chastain
But there might. And there might be a guy at the end of that road is going to beat the shit out of you. You know?

00;12;13;06 - 00;12;18;27
Paul Sullivan
And his hypothesis would be you were lost and you didn't know where you were going. Well, let me teach you to.

00;12;18;28 - 00;12;24;08
Jim Chastain
I came in and said, I'm lost. He would definitely beat the shit out.

00;12;24;10 - 00;12;27;02
Paul Sullivan
All right, I at proving versus improv, I get that. Okay, so let.

00;12;27;02 - 00;12;49;17
Jim Chastain
Me tell you, one of the, another thing, that happens in this, I think, or another example of it is, is and I don't know if you've done this or not, I, I've done it in my life. I think a lot of guys we compartmentalize. And so we, we, we, we turn our life into, into sort of buckets, that are all separated from each other and we compartmentalize.

00;12;49;17 - 00;13;12;04
Jim Chastain
We never actually reveal our total self to other to other people or we hesitate to do that. So I mean, a question is that like, why do we compartmentalize so much? You know, and and so, so one of the reasons, I think, is we don't want to see other people to see totally who we are.

00;13;12;06 - 00;13;25;06
Jim Chastain
Because they might see some kind of weakness. I mean, asking questions, seeing more, you know, people see more of me. They're going to know. They're going to know my weaknesses, basically.

00;13;25;08 - 00;13;37;00
Paul Sullivan
So, Jim, on the podcast I did right before this, I covered up the little red dot on my nose from my daughter. And now with you, I feel I can show my weakness that a seven year old turned quickly this weekend. Wow.

00;13;37;02 - 00;13;44;03
Jim Chastain
Wow. I wouldn't call that weakness. I would call that a lack of quickness. Okay. You've got that, by the way.

00;13;44;05 - 00;14;08;04
Paul Sullivan
Oh the shame. There's that word. The shame. All right. Question three ish. Core insight. Number two, society and culture focus much more on the act of becoming a man than being one. I like this question. I remember years ago, I was on a train. I was a, reporter for the Financial Times. My first big story ever.

00;14;08;04 - 00;14;29;02
Paul Sullivan
I saw Kurt Vonnegut, the great novelist. Kurt Vonnegut, train with his big nimbus of hair. And I went back and I talked to him, which, because, I knew that he he would say something interesting. It'd be a good story. And one of the things he told me is that, you know, too, too often today, people aren't focusing on that becoming that they just want to be that.

00;14;29;02 - 00;14;48;29
Paul Sullivan
That was one thing to say. This is 20 years ago. He's that. But they wanted it. And I think that's so interesting, like the act of becoming. But you're taking this, turning it on its head that becoming is the focus. But being a man is the thing that we don't put enough attention on. And so, you know, why is that?

00;14;48;29 - 00;14;53;12
Paul Sullivan
And and you know what are the expectations here that are, that are being missed?

00;14;53;14 - 00;15;24;06
Jim Chastain
I think, I mean, it's interesting you hear a lot more stories, in popular culture, movies. Etc., about, you know, someone's sort of path to manhood. And, and, you know, even, a lot of the very famous psychologists and writers who write about manhood talk about that. And there's been traditions of, of kind of almost initiation rites, you know, that, that, that are part of that.

00;15;24;08 - 00;15;25;08
Jim Chastain
That's my struggle.

00;15;25;16 - 00;15;47;14
Paul Sullivan
Which is interesting, though, because those initiation rite often happen, you know, like the core age is even today or, you know, 16, you can drive, 18, you can vote, 21, you can have a drink. You know, some of the more historic initiation rates also happened in those, you know, teenage years. Now that's quite young for people who are going to live until 80, 85, maybe 90.

00;15;47;18 - 00;16;09;19
Paul Sullivan
But of course, when these initiation rituals, were created thousands of years ago, you may get eaten by a bear at 17. So it's probably important to get you that up early on. Why haven't we, adapted? Why isn't there? You know something when you're. I mean, you have a 30th birthday party of the 50th birthday party.

00;16;09;19 - 00;16;19;27
Paul Sullivan
And what do you do? You take a trip with your family, your friends. But there aren't the same rituals. Why don't they exist? And what would happen if there were, you know, other markers throughout life, I think.

00;16;19;27 - 00;16;45;16
Jim Chastain
Well, I think one of the reasons why they don't exist is we can survive without them. You know, I think I think it's that's a possibility. I think though my, my issue, I guess as a strategist, when you think about what, what can we get men to focus on differently here is, is when you're when you're becoming something, it just, intimates, a sense of arrival.

00;16;45;19 - 00;17;10;23
Jim Chastain
I'm there. I'm now a man. So I just had my first shot of Jack Daniels, you know, or I'm driving or I'm, you know, I joined the military, or I did something really courageous and bought my way through. So now I'm a man. And I think that that does a couple things to men. One is now I'm here, I'm done.

00;17;10;26 - 00;17;32;02
Jim Chastain
Right. You know, I'm done. So now I'm a man, so. Okay, that means that could make me feel like I have a right to certain things just because I'm a man now, even though I haven't really worked for them. You know, it can also make me feel like I don't need to grow anymore. Growing, for men.

00;17;32;02 - 00;17;53;11
Jim Chastain
I mean, I feel like, manhood should be thought of as more of a practice, more of a let's let's make this an ongoing expectation of growth. So if we could actually instill and then, you know, hey, you're supposed to keep growing. Yeah. You don't have it all figured out right now.

00;17;53;13 - 00;18;21;14
Paul Sullivan
Essentially you use that term because it's like you talk about the practice of law or, you know, a doctor in private practice or you know, the term that gets used when you finish colleges, you don't have, it's all over address. You have a commencement address because you're about to go turn on something else. Yeah, but whereas I got an attorney or a doctor, probably realize that you need to keep practicing, you know, at it, even though, you know, we'd like to think that they have some level of expertise.

00;18;21;17 - 00;18;24;28
Paul Sullivan
But they're always they're always learning. They're always learning. Yeah.

00;18;25;00 - 00;18;47;25
Jim Chastain
Yeah. And so why? What's wrong with that? I think it's interesting that that society kind of. And I'm not blaming I mean, I think it's something we, we fall into ourselves as men. Yeah. You know, but I think that I think it's actually something we could change. It's just a matter of changing for men. Changing? What are your expectations?

00;18;47;27 - 00;19;05;18
Jim Chastain
Yeah. You know, and, and and what do we expect from you? I mean, a lot of guys, are talking today, and I totally support this. Maybe we should all have a year of service when we get out of high school or whatever, instead of, you know, going straight to college or going into trade or whatever.

00;19;05;22 - 00;19;14;25
Jim Chastain
Yeah. Well, those are that's a growth experience if you think about it. Because I'm expanding beyond my, my bubble.

00;19;14;28 - 00;19;23;09
Paul Sullivan
I and it gets you out that beyond just academics and school and this and like okay, maybe I don't want to be a marine biologist you know whatever and exactly. Yeah, I love it.

00;19;23;12 - 00;19;25;04
Jim Chastain
Yeah.

00;19;25;07 - 00;19;45;22
Paul Sullivan
Core insight number three, I think there's a there's a meaty one here and that you talk about the masculine myth man and the modern expectations of man. You know, what are those two two constructs and how do they play out and talk about the, you know, social and cultural and, influences that, that come into play there?

00;19;45;24 - 00;20;04;03
Jim Chastain
Well, one of the things I realized, and I, and I realize from doing all of the all of this sort of deep dive strategy work that I've done over the years is, is generalizing about things. Never gets to what, what's really going on. So there's a lot of general talk about, you know, men being a certain way or another.

00;20;04;03 - 00;20;17;06
Jim Chastain
But what I decided to do is I came up with, with a set of tensions that I think men experience based on those two very extreme narratives. And so, so.

00;20;17;08 - 00;20;19;07
Paul Sullivan
So lay out those narratives and what the tensions are.

00;20;19;07 - 00;20;46;15
Jim Chastain
Yeah. Well then it will the narratives it masculine myth man. I think we know who that is. I mean this is a traditional tough, invincible competitive. Yeah. You know, kick ass and take names. Guy. Okay. The modern expectations, man, in some, is the guy who is not afraid to cry. And he's he's not afraid to show his emotions.

00;20;46;18 - 00;21;11;10
Jim Chastain
He's not afraid to be vulnerable. He being tender is actually something that he wants to do and likes to do. Yeah. So that couldn't be those two narratives which have also been politicized, for sure. They, they they tear a man apart because every man I've talked to doesn't want to be completely one of those men or the other.

00;21;11;17 - 00;21;30;24
Jim Chastain
They want to be somewhere in between. And so the trouble is, or the, the issues men face, again, without even really thinking about it with this level of specificity is how can I be invincible and vulnerable? That's a tough question.

00;21;30;27 - 00;21;35;17
Paul Sullivan
How can I be short and tall? How can I be, you know, fat and skinny, how can I yeah.

00;21;35;20 - 00;21;39;05
Jim Chastain
How can I have an unarmed nose and a nose with a, you know, with all.

00;21;39;05 - 00;21;42;23
Paul Sullivan
The hands how I turn, I can do that. I can, I can turn this back.

00;21;42;25 - 00;21;52;15
Jim Chastain
And I say you're working your way through it right there. But but you know, how can I be tough and tender? How can I be competitive and collaborative?

00;21;52;18 - 00;22;02;22
Paul Sullivan
You know, the Capital Grill does a really good job of this. If you ever order a filet at the Capital Grill, they cook the best for that $2. But literally it's crispy on the outside and they're nice and tender on the inside.

00;22;02;24 - 00;22;11;24
Jim Chastain
I just as a vegetarian you're making me, you know, your steak analogy is really working for me, by the way. Okay.

00;22;11;27 - 00;22;38;22
Jim Chastain
So so anyway, so so I, you know what I found, in interviewing, close to 200 guys. Yeah. Is is there there are some guys who have figured out, instead of this being an or a decision, I have to be this or that, right? Is I can be this and that. I can hold these two parts of myself together, you know, and see that I can be invincible.

00;22;38;22 - 00;22;59;11
Jim Chastain
And I can be at times and I can be vulnerable at times, and I can I can figure out how to do that. And and those guys, I'm, I'm sort of calling the next American man because I feel like. I feel like the guy, the next guy, the next real man out there is the guy who can combine both of those things.

00;22;59;14 - 00;23;07;13
Jim Chastain
Because they're both, very clear but very distinct realities that, that, that I think men are facing.

00;23;07;15 - 00;23;21;13
Paul Sullivan
I love that, you know, one of the things we did, you know, three years ago when we started the company dads, is we wanted to, you know, talk about these men who are in this role of go to parent, who are caregivers, who are supporting, you know, their spouses if they have one or and always being sort of allies at work.

00;23;21;18 - 00;23;43;14
Paul Sullivan
But at the same time, we didn't want it to feel like it was less masculine to be in this role. And so very purposely, one of the first podcast, we did is are the guy named Energy Good, who won a Super Bowl playing for the Philadelphia Eagles. Against against the Patriots that Tom Brady intercepted. Tom Brady ten years in the NFL.

00;23;43;16 - 00;24;13;01
Paul Sullivan
He's about as masculine as you can imagine. That's sort of the archetype that you kind of an NFL player and a Navy Seal are so the archetypes of masculine men. But he has two daughters. He is, divorced. His wife isn't, you know, really in their family anymore. So he is, solo that musically, dad is also a solo dad and they're he's out there with these two, you know, little girls doing all the things that, you know, both mom and dad have to, to do with them.

00;24;13;01 - 00;24;21;25
Paul Sullivan
And and he fully embraces it. So he's exactly the next American man. And and, you know, on a super high level. I love.

00;24;21;25 - 00;24;57;04
Jim Chastain
That. Well, so, I mean, the thing that, and I think the reason I, I immediately love the concept of lead dad, when when I heard about it is it's doing exactly that. Right. I think the concept, I mean, and the way that you guys have been able to change the vocabulary, I love that it's lead dad. I love that it's lead dad, not lead parent, but, because that's that's helping a guy deal with his masculinity that sometimes gets in the way of just being a better person and doing what's right and all that kind of stuff.

00;24;57;10 - 00;25;06;11
Paul Sullivan
We picked it intentionally just for that reason. So you say, okay, this is something I want to embrace and move forward into it, not something I'm falling back and giving up on.

00;25;06;14 - 00;25;15;29
Jim Chastain
So no. And I, you know, we can make a side deal on this problem, but but, I'd like to talk to some of your lead dads. I really what? Because I think I see how.

00;25;15;29 - 00;25;40;02
Paul Sullivan
You go with the next question. You're in the lightning round here. Okay, a core insight number four. Men want to grow, but don't think they can without feeling less of a man. And then hair growth has been stigmatized as feminine. What does all that mean? You know what? What we talk so much about personal growth.

00;25;40;02 - 00;25;57;09
Paul Sullivan
We talk about, you know, this in the corporate setting. You want to grow, you want to get the next promotion. You want to become the vice president. But why is it that you know, are you saying that men are stunted? Are you saying that men are growing but just not talking about it? What are you saying in that that fourth core insight?

00;25;57;11 - 00;26;27;01
Jim Chastain
I'm saying that, men aren't men are growing, as much as they could. They're not advancing as much as they could. Because there's a stigma to opening yourself up. There's a stigma to being sensitive. There's a stigma to saying, by but by just by the nature of saying I want to grow.

00;26;27;04 - 00;27;02;25
Jim Chastain
If you really want to grow, it means you're going to ask questions. It means you're going to to admit that you don't know things. It means that you want to understand instead of just knowing things. And understanding is something that just requires honestly, more emotional awareness, and more emotional intelligence in a way. And so you can't just rationally understand things, you know, you you have to you have to go deeper than that.

00;27;02;25 - 00;27;28;25
Jim Chastain
And, and I think when guys do that, I think sometimes, you know, and not every I mean, it's just I hate generalizing. So, this isn't every man. But but sometimes guys get a little, a little glance over sideways glance if they're trying to. It's like, oh, wait a minute, you're you're going on a retreat with other men to understand yourself better.

00;27;28;25 - 00;27;41;04
Jim Chastain
Like, what's wrong with you, man? Yeah. I mean, not that somebody is going to say that to a guy's face, but I think a guy can feel that, and, you know, so then.

00;27;41;07 - 00;27;49;21
Paul Sullivan
Because you would be like, come out here and what do you talk about? And I'm not, I'm not, you know, we're going to go, fishing. We're going to go hunting, we're going to go on a golf trip.

00;27;49;26 - 00;27;51;03
Jim Chastain


00;27;51;06 - 00;27;56;05
Paul Sullivan
No, no, no, you know, you're going to retreat. There's there's no fishing on it. No no no no no. Just guys.

00;27;56;08 - 00;28;18;18
Jim Chastain
Well, it's one of the reasons, that, that, that a lot of men's stuff like that where men are gathering together to talk about themselves and to try to understand themselves and express themselves better are centered around activities. Yeah. So, so you can say, I'm going fly fishing with a bunch of guys. So you can say that.

00;28;18;23 - 00;28;30;08
Jim Chastain
So you're much more likely to say that to another guy than, maybe, your wife. Right. Who is really who knows while you're really gone.

00;28;30;10 - 00;29;08;03
Paul Sullivan
Yeah, I love it. So, core insight five, and I really want some of the time on this one because, you know, we've heard so much about the epidemic of loneliness around among men, middle aged men and correlation of, you know, being detached, a suicide, obviously at the, at the extreme of this, but you talk and the, the fifth core insight, you talk about something that you call loneliness and you say that loneliness is a bigger and broader problem, than than loneliness.

00;29;08;03 - 00;29;13;22
Paul Sullivan
So, so unpack this. What is only ness and and what problem is it causing?

00;29;13;24 - 00;29;47;00
Jim Chastain
So loneliness is is feeling like I'm the only one going through something. We don't tend to share, any of the problems or deeper issues that we have with anyone else because we can tend to believe. And again, this isn't all men, but we can tend to believe there's a certain honor in cutting it out completely on our, and, and and also there's a so that's one part of loneliness.

00;29;47;00 - 00;29;59;26
Jim Chastain
Another part of loneliness is I'm the only one who's who's, climbed Everest 27 times or whatever. Okay. You know, that's not that's not real. I do it.

00;29;59;29 - 00;30;26;11
Jim Chastain
So that we just talk about that right? No. Or I'm the only one like you hear a lot of, And I've talked to a lot of of CEOs. Yeah. Who who really feel this that they can't talk to anybody else about anything because it's up to them and, and they, they so they feel boxed in and sort of honored like some sense of honor all at the same time.

00;30;26;13 - 00;30;42;13
Jim Chastain
Which is a complex set of emotions. And so, so I think it's broader that I think loneliness and loneliness are two different things. I think only those can lead to loneliness. Okay. If you will. Okay.

00;30;42;15 - 00;30;50;20
Paul Sullivan
Is this why groups like, you know, ypo and stuff like that to bring executives? Is this why they exist? So to sort of break down that sense of loneliness?

00;30;50;20 - 00;31;19;20
Jim Chastain
I think so, yeah, I think so in that way, but, but but, so I'll, I'll give you a quick example. I'm starting a, a men's organization that's really trying to get men to help other men. Okay. And, and one of the things that these guys, we, we sort of ran a little pilot and one of the in the debrief, every single guy said, you know what I love the most about this?

00;31;19;22 - 00;31;22;12
Jim Chastain
Knowing I'm not the only one.

00;31;22;14 - 00;31;23;18
Paul Sullivan
Interesting.

00;31;23;20 - 00;31;25;24
Jim Chastain
And so. And it's little stuff, Paul. It's.

00;31;25;27 - 00;31;30;05
Paul Sullivan
What was it that this isn't like running a fortune 500 companies. And so what is it where they felt like, you.

00;31;30;05 - 00;31;54;03
Jim Chastain
Know, I had a, you know, I was running out the, of the door this morning and, you know, I had this huge business idea, and I'm really focused on that. And my wife, who's who stays at home. She is. She says, you know, can you please empty the dishwasher? Yeah. And he's like, God, like, I really want to go do that, right?

00;31;54;08 - 00;32;18;01
Jim Chastain
But I really know I should do that. Stay here and empty the dishwasher. So this literally happened. I had a guy talking about that in a group. Every other guy is nodding their head and going, yeah. And so guys just don't talk about little things like that. We tend to shoulder them and, and to think if I just push through this.

00;32;18;01 - 00;32;19;15
Jim Chastain
Yeah. Hey.

00;32;19;17 - 00;32;38;15
Paul Sullivan
That's a great point because, you know, you can push through things early on. And then over over time they build up and you're pushing through more and more and more. You know, the things we talk about in relationships, we talk about we had the single the paper test. We don't we see that resentment in a relationship, doesn't emerge fully formed.

00;32;38;15 - 00;32;57;21
Paul Sullivan
It's kind of like dust under a couch. It builds up, it builds up and builds, but you don't really know it's there. Unless you, move or buy a new couch, unless you sort of acknowledge it. And you, you talk about it like, obviously there's going to be some others. I mean, there's only this seems the same thing, like when you get together, when your, your, your, your dad friend, your male friends is, hey, you know what?

00;32;57;21 - 00;33;12;20
Paul Sullivan
This happened. And it's not even like you're complaining about your spouse or your kids. You're just if I'm correct here, you're feeling that other people are going through something incredibly similar to what you're going through, and then it gives you moments like, okay, all right. I guess this is okay. Is that fair?

00;33;12;20 - 00;33;31;01
Jim Chastain
It's a it's a yeah, it's a powerful thing. And I think I got to believe that Company of Dads is is offering that to guys. And honestly. Yeah. Who are, you know, coming back to just the concept of dad and somebody going, oh my God, now, now I see, oh, there's other guys like me.

00;33;31;01 - 00;33;32;00
Paul Sullivan
Well, that's he's got that.

00;33;32;02 - 00;33;33;06
Jim Chastain
Yeah. Shit.

00;33;33;08 - 00;33;53;05
Paul Sullivan
I for 25 million men in the United States, only dad could be like that. And that's a third of all, father. So when we we created this group, it's like you're just going to come here and be like any other guy, any other man, but you're going to talk about things that are slightly different than the other two thirds of are very different, even for the other two thirds of fathers in America, but not really different from the guys in this group.

00;33;53;05 - 00;34;07;20
Paul Sullivan
And I think that's been the real power of it, is that whether you're, a Super Bowl champion who played ten years in the NFL or, you know, just a regular guy, you have more things in common than you do, differences, because you your share this this journey as a dad.

00;34;07;22 - 00;34;30;27
Jim Chastain
And one thing I've learned about I've been talking to all types of men age, sexual orientation, role in the household, ethnicity, income, all the whole things. We actually have way more income in general than we'd like to think. But I mean, what we have in common is, is a lot of, you know, pretty deep stuff. What do we really want out of life?

00;34;30;29 - 00;34;59;27
Jim Chastain
You know, how do we see ourselves being somebody who matters? You know, those kinds of things are universal. And, and again, we just don't we don't stop and think about them. Partly because we're not asked to. Partly because we think we're too busy, partly because we don't think we need to. Yeah. You know, and then all sorts of other reasons you could throw in there like the game is on, you know, or whatever.

00;34;59;29 - 00;35;00;25
Jim Chastain


00;35;00;28 - 00;35;22;20
Paul Sullivan
Jim Chastain, amazing. Thank you for being my guest on the Company Does podcast today. I know, you're doing this research, is working toward a book. If men are listening to this and say, hey, I want to talk to Jim, I want to be part of this. How do they find you? How do they become part of the research that you're doing?

00;35;22;22 - 00;35;38;10
Jim Chastain
You can find me. I'm on Substack. Stuff guys don't talk about. I'm also on TikTok. Talk about being vulnerable, by the way. Wow. I don't know, at my age on TikTok, it's weird, but I'm doing it.

00;35;38;16 - 00;35;42;27
Paul Sullivan
It's it's actually shameful, Jim. It's shameful. I'll use that word.

00;35;42;29 - 00;35;47;17
Jim Chastain
Thank you. Gosh, you're so good at making me feel good about how you do it.

00;35;47;17 - 00;35;51;05
Paul Sullivan
Shows great strength for you to be on there. So you're not weak. But it is.

00;35;51;07 - 00;36;16;01
Jim Chastain
It is? Yeah. There you go. And and, Yeah. And on LinkedIn, you can just. Yeah. Ping me on LinkedIn. I'd be happy to, I really would love for guys to participate because it's a, it's a, it's a perspective that, that I think, needs or needs more of a voice, you know, and so anything I can do to, to kind of bring that out would be, would be really satisfying to me.

00;36;16;04 - 00;36;23;29
Paul Sullivan
Love it. All right. Jim Chastain, check out his Substack stuff. Guys, don't talk about. Thank you again for being my guest today.

00;36;24;02 - 00;36;26;24
Jim Chastain
Thank you, my friend.

00;36;26;26 - 00;36;47;02
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to another episode of the Company of Dads podcast. Really appreciate you tuning in week after week trying to use this moment here to thank the people who make it possible. Number one, of course, Helder Moura, who is our podcast editor. We also have Skip Cherry Home, so many of you know from Lead Diaries, he's taken over our social media.

00;36;47;02 - 00;37;07;27
Paul Sullivan
Terry Brennan is helping us with our audience development. And Emily Servant is there, each and every day helping with the web development and can't do any of this without, an amazing board, of advisors. So I just want to say thank you to all of you who help. And I want to say thank you to everyone who listens.

00;37;07;27 - 00;37;11;09
Paul Sullivan
And, hopefully you'll tune in again next week. Thanks so much.