EP151: Rebranding the Mind: Changing the Language Around Mental Health

Interview with Brian Mann / Co-Founder of Glitched States

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

What if we’ve been using the wrong words to talk about our mental state? Brian Mann, co-founder of Glitched States and Kemble & Mann Creative Intelligence Labs, is on a mission to replace stigma with strength. He’s building a new vocabulary for mental health - one that turns “disorders” into dimensions of human experience. He discusses how reframing anxiety as Signal Sense or OCD as Deep Detail can transform the way parents, kids, and families understand themselves.

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Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;14;05
Brian Mann
As a dad, as you said of two kids, you know, I wanted to be able to talk about the world, in a way that didn't make them afraid of it, or maybe kind of confused, right. Because, you know, sometimes you might have in the family, oh, this person has mental illness, but the kid doesn't really understand that.

00;00;14;05 - 00;00;29;06
Brian Mann
They just see that person as is different or kind of like, oh, okay. So I want it to be able to talk in terms of, you know, to an eight year old, to a four year old that, you know, are in heavily with technology playing on iPads and phones and whatnot, depending on the age. And that's where I kind of tested it.

00;00;29;08 - 00;00;44;20
Brian Mann
Hey, you know, sometimes you might feel kind of, nervous about something, right? You know, you don't always feel nervous, just like when your phone glitches and I have to kind of, you know, restart it or kind of, you know, try to fix it or download something else. You come to me and ask for that help, right?

00;00;44;26 - 00;01;04;21
Brian Mann
Yeah. And that's kind of what we said of, you know, your brain, you know, similar to a computer and how it works technically there's energy and there's information traveling and sometimes that gets stopped up. Or maybe it's not going the right way. You like a computer or your phone can glitch right?

00;01;04;24 - 00;01;27;07
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the company dad's podcast. I'm your host, Paul Sullivan. We're focused on lead dads, working moms, and how small changes at home or work can have a big impact on their lives. Each episode promises to deliver actionable advice on some area of concern at home or at work. Short. Direct. Again, actionable. Five questions. Five answers. Today we're talking to Brian Mann.

00;01;27;10 - 00;01;58;01
Paul Sullivan
He and John Campbell are the co-founders of Glitch States and Kimberlin Mann Creative Intelligence Labs. Together, they are reshaping how we talk about mental health with a radical question what if we've been using all the wrong words to talk about our minds through their glitch state movement? They're rebranding mental health and replacing stigmatizing labels with empowering language like Signal Sense for anxiety, dual perspective for bipolar, deep detail for OCD.

00;01;58;01 - 00;02;19;20
Paul Sullivan
And they're turning these invisible states into bold works of art. They're all be at the rail Summit in New York City in October. I'm an ambassador for the really Deeply and what the organization is doing for men's mental health. So I'm thrilled to have Brian, that of two from Los Angeles on the Company Dads podcast today.

00;02;19;22 - 00;02;21;24
Brian Mann
Cool. Thank you, Paul. Thanks for having me.

00;02;21;26 - 00;02;42;13
Paul Sullivan
So Brian, talk to me. You know, I love words. Everyone knows that I was a long time New York Times columnist. Talk to me about, you know, what was a moment when you thought, okay, what if we use different words to describe this instead of saying, you know, mentally ill or mental illness? What if we came up with different terms?

00;02;42;13 - 00;02;47;09
Paul Sullivan
What what was that moment when you thought of this? And why did you think it was, meaningful and important?

00;02;47;11 - 00;03;06;24
Brian Mann
Yeah, absolutely. So John and myself have been, you know, artists our whole lives also in pharmaceutical, healthcare, advertising. So we've seen that world, we've seen people affected by this personally. And in that field. And, you know, as a copywriter by trade, words were very important. Had brands asking to change the words and make sure, you know, that we had the right words.

00;03;06;26 - 00;03;25;21
Brian Mann
So when it came to you know, mental illness and mental health, we kind of stopped as we were doing, you know, some, some art project together looking at I do and kind of, you know, glitching and having mistakes and going, hey, you know, we have this kind of term for computer mistakes, but human error, so to speak, or, you know, changes is, is very harsh.

00;03;25;21 - 00;03;43;12
Brian Mann
You know, we're saying who wants to be called mentally ill? Please raise your hand. It's so different than having a broken leg or a cold. So that's when we kind of had that correlation to go. You know, there's other ways to talk about, you know, things that aren't quite right or not how you want them. So maybe we could change that language together.

00;03;43;15 - 00;04;02;17
Paul Sullivan
You know, I think it's fascinating that you came at this from the copywriting field, particularly having worked out of pharmaceuticals. I mean, I can think of a million, you know, skit, Saturday Night Live skits when some big pharma company is trying to come up with the term. That makes no sense at all, but it describes their drug, but in a really nice way.

00;04;02;17 - 00;04;27;17
Paul Sullivan
Even though the drug is for whatever it's for and has horrendous side effects. So I mean, when you guys were riffing on this, how did you start? You know, because these aren't like silly terms that you've, you've come up with. They're really, you know, meaningful to say somebody who's had deep detail for OCD. You're like, okay, well, you've taken a negative in a stigmatized phrase and turned it into something positive.

00;04;27;17 - 00;04;32;04
Paul Sullivan
So what was it like when, when when you guys were riffing on this and started coming up with these, these key terms?

00;04;32;06 - 00;04;45;10
Brian Mann
Yeah. So again, the opening was kind of just talking about glitching and going, you know, having the metaphor go back and forth and go, all right, you're computer glitches. You know, you're giving a PowerPoint presentation at work. And it's not working. Do you throw that PowerPoint out? Do you lock it up? Do you call it crazy? Right.

00;04;45;10 - 00;05;01;27
Brian Mann
We don't do those things. So that's kind of how it started. And then we looked at specific kind of what we're calling glitches of, kind of what you just said. Anxiety. Right. And going, you know, anxiety is, stressful. You know, I don't want to be anxious before a presentation, but it is kind of telling me something, right?

00;05;01;27 - 00;05;19;29
Brian Mann
It's got to be like, be prepared, you know, kind of watch out for these things. So it was helpful over time and human history. So instead of just, you know, going, all right, you know, I'm glitching, I have anxiety. It's still felt very harsh. Right. A panic attack. These words just felt like, you know, not things we wanted to hear.

00;05;20;01 - 00;05;35;15
Brian Mann
So anxiety, we started to look at it and go, oh, maybe that's something called. And, you know, we spent some time of thought into it. But we said that could be signal. Sounds right. I'm getting the signal and getting the sense that something is about to be a problem. Not always a bad thing, right? Think about in the forest back.

00;05;35;15 - 00;05;40;18
Brian Mann
You know, when we were first humans and, you know, someone said, what's that noise? And thankfully, they said, because it was.

00;05;40;18 - 00;05;43;23
Paul Sullivan
It's a wooly mammoth. It's a yeah, it's a trample us.

00;05;43;23 - 00;06;01;20
Brian Mann
Yeah, exactly. It's like, stop being anxious, Paul. But no, we needed that. So that's where we wanted to balance the, you know, the seriousness of these glitches. Yes. You know, people need medical help. Sometimes they get that far, but sometimes you might just need compassion. So we wanted to to kind of show that spectrum.

00;06;01;22 - 00;06;32;25
Paul Sullivan
You know, question to talk about how we apply the glitch metaphor and this new vocabulary to kids. And family, because if you take it too far, when something when a computer glitches, you reboot it. But but that makes it feel as if you're rebooting somebody. But that's not I'm sure that's not what you mean. So how do we, you know, take this glitch metaphor, which I love, and this new vocabulary and signal sense and do a perspective and apply it to, you know, particularly kids and families who are, who are struggling.

00;06;32;27 - 00;06;48;28
Brian Mann
Yeah. I mean, yeah, just have a personal thing, right? As a dad, as you said, of two kids, you know, I want it to be able to talk about the world, in a way that didn't make them afraid of it or may be kind of confused. Right. Because, you know, sometimes you might have in the family, oh, this person has mental illness, but the kid doesn't really understand that.

00;06;48;28 - 00;07;03;24
Brian Mann
They just see that person as is different or kind of like, oh, okay. So I want it to be able to talk in terms of, you know, to an eight year old, to a four year old that, you know, are in heavily with technology playing on iPads and phones and whatnot, depending on the age. And that's where I kind of tested it.

00;07;03;24 - 00;07;19;08
Brian Mann
And John did with his kids to to go, hey, you know, sometimes you might feel kind of, nervous about something, right? You know, you don't always feel nervous. Just like when your phone glitches and I have to kind of, you know, restart it or kind of, you know, try to fix it or download something else.

00;07;19;14 - 00;07;35;21
Brian Mann
You come to me and ask for that help, right? You're very calm too. Hey. My phone. I can't hear the sound. Dad, you know what's going on? Oh, hold on, let me. Let me check it out. Yeah, and that's kind of what we said of, you know, your brain, you know, similar to a computer and how it works technically, there's energy and there's information traveling.

00;07;35;21 - 00;07;55;07
Brian Mann
And sometimes that gets stopped up. Or maybe it's not going the right way. You like a computer or your phone can glitch. Right. And it became this kind of yeah. No, totally. No. I get that sometimes I'm just feeling like angry or sad or, you know, very simple terms besides saying anxiety. But they got it. And that's where John and we're kind of that light bulb moments ago.

00;07;55;10 - 00;08;10;23
Brian Mann
All right. This is interesting. It's not just this higher level art movement or kind of rebrand of mental health that we're talking to adults about. But it could be for children too. And then we were talking to some other people just kind of you had mentioned the real and, you know, people in that community of mental health and trying to make change.

00;08;10;26 - 00;08;30;08
Brian Mann
And, you know, we had some discussions, too, about maybe creating a syllabus or kind of curriculum in schools. Not that that's official, but how interesting would that be to have a glitch States program where you go and address those things. Your grandmother just passed away. How are you feeling right now? Is there anything a little different in your thinking that you hadn't had before that?

00;08;30;08 - 00;08;55;14
Brian Mann
Is there any glitches popping up that we could address together? Right. And it becomes so much more of an easy conversation with that eight year old. And hey, let's talk about mental illness. You know, you might have a disorder, right? You would never really kind of have that discussion, even though those are the medical clinical terms. So that's where I found that kind of gap or divide of how do I just talk to someone preemptively about this before it escalates to kind of, you know, should we call nine, eight eight?

00;08;55;14 - 00;09;00;16
Brian Mann
Should we lock you up? You know, there's a middle ground. That's what we would try to paint out that that picture.

00;09;00;18 - 00;09;24;08
Paul Sullivan
You know, I love this, you know, question three. You know, I'm very much a weird guy, so I like. Yeah, I get the words immediately, but not everybody is. And a lot of our kids are much more visual. So you've done something, that I find beautiful and fascinating and arresting. And that is. You found a way to sort of, create a visual image of what somebody's mind may be like.

00;09;24;08 - 00;09;40;11
Paul Sullivan
And I love to that. You tell us about this. It's it's not much a question is, is a description because we'll put this up on the website when it runs. But it's it's so powerful. So how did you how are you creating the visual rapid representation of the glitch states that people are going through.

00;09;40;13 - 00;09;58;02
Brian Mann
Yeah. So this is, a lot on John Campbell, my, you know, partner in this business and art project of rebranding mental health. And, you know, we were playing with I, of course, is creators and all those tools out there. And he's got a system now where he set it up. We call them creative intelligence systems. You know, it's artificial intelligence, but we're using it for creative purposes.

00;09;58;02 - 00;10;13;26
Brian Mann
So that's our spin on it. And he's got a system where he tells the kind of, you know what the images should look like, the glitching, you know, should we have layers? So there's kind of a programing sense in the background. And then what we do, we have that basic, you know, look and feel that we want to have we go and talk to a person.

00;10;13;26 - 00;10;30;18
Brian Mann
Right. Some of these are just representations of the glitches. But sometimes we actually do custom portraits or talk to people. And one example was for, you know, OCD, somebody that we talked to had that was suffering from it and they were like, you know, it's really hard to describe to someone because, you know, you get all the cliches of like, oh, do you just count things a lot?

00;10;30;18 - 00;10;47;08
Brian Mann
Or, you know, the, the, the basic surface level. And they're like, no, it's definitely more to that. Honestly. There's a lot of questions that pop into my mind, you know, just this constant barrage of intrusive thoughts and questions. So we have a half hour talk with people, just kind of letting them explain, you know, what's the world like for you?

00;10;47;08 - 00;11;02;02
Brian Mann
What is it like to have OCD? What does it look like? What does it smell like? You know, and there might be aspects that we don't see. So anyway, with that particular person, we put it together and there was a lot of question marks. We had question marks floating around and kind of like little, you know, energy shooting.

00;11;02;09 - 00;11;20;08
Brian Mann
So you can see this feeling of being bombarded by questions. Right? I've just try to go through your day. I'm trying to talk to my boss about something. But you know what? If I pick up this pen and I heard him? What if I do this? What if I open the window and to write whatever is happening so that person, once we give them that portrait, they were like, thank you so much.

00;11;20;08 - 00;11;39;09
Brian Mann
Because now I actually went and showed my husband and said this, this is what it's like. This is every day. Do you see the questions in the sparks and the the swirls when you're trying to talk to me? That's what's happening. And I don't want that. I'm glitching. So that's really, you know, the power that you said of someone being able to go, this is actually what's happening.

00;11;39;09 - 00;11;41;19
Brian Mann
I can't describe it, but look at that.

00;11;41;21 - 00;11;44;27
Paul Sullivan
That's amazing. I mean, how many of these you think you've done?

00;11;44;29 - 00;12;05;24
Brian Mann
Right now, honestly, we're in the early stages, so we've done your close friends, family, you know, business partners, maybe about five or so. But it really is interesting how when we get into the 30 minute questions and it's very quick how many visuals appear, how many metaphors come up, right? How many people say a certain word that, you know, I feel like in the portrait, if I just said this, that would get to it.

00;12;06;01 - 00;12;18;13
Brian Mann
So again, there's pieces, right? People understand. And I think John and myself, our job we consider is to stitch that together. Right until the full picture of you, because people see the outside, but inside they might just go, okay, I kind of know what that is.

00;12;18;13 - 00;12;33;24
Paul Sullivan
You just what are some of the reactions, Ben? Because, you know, I've seen these again, there would be on the website for people listen to this, but there's so visceral because it's the image of the person's face and then everything that's going on in the brain. What is the reaction when you've shown these two people?

00;12;33;26 - 00;12;50;29
Brian Mann
Yeah, no, it's been very powerful. And a lot of times I think people feel feel seen. Right. And, you know, we can pretty much reveal the portrait online and hurt them. And it's like, oh my God, that that's it. Right. And there's this excitement too, which is kind of interesting and in a serious condition. There's that excitement that goes, that's the real me.

00;12;50;29 - 00;13;11;13
Brian Mann
That's what I'm going through. And, you know, I, I do want to show this to somebody else because sometimes it's not only, you know, this kind of bad thing. Sometimes people are proud about what they've gone through. Right? It's, you know, I've had resilience through this glitch. You know, this this didn't stop me. I am at the top of my game or I have a great family, whatever it is, right that you're trying to create in your life.

00;13;11;15 - 00;13;27;01
Brian Mann
So a lot of times there's joy, there's excitement. And then sometimes, honestly, Paul, a sense of relief, right? To go, wow, now I can finally communicate this where I've gone to a lot of doctors and families and they just say, you know, all right, well, good luck. I don't know, you know, they're getting.

00;13;27;03 - 00;13;40;24
Paul Sullivan
Amazing, you know, question for let's bring it back to our bread and butter here, which is, which is fathers. Yeah. And, you know, talk to me about you know, this is kind of an obvious question, but I want to hear your your response here. Why why do dads need this? You know, better language. Why do they need this?

00;13;40;24 - 00;13;57;14
Paul Sullivan
To help them talk about their emotions at home or to help them connect with their kids or to help them? You know, model behavior. I mean, a or glitch is something that these dads find easier to talk about than saying, I have, you know, X, you know, diagnosed, you know, condition.

00;13;57;16 - 00;14;12;25
Brian Mann
I think overall it's it's a unifier. Right. And that's what John and I were trying to do to because, you know, right now in the world, at least as we saw it, there's that divide. Again, if you have a broken leg, whatever, that's fine. It heals. Time happens, but you don't want to cross that line sometimes professionally, whatever reason.

00;14;12;25 - 00;14;33;14
Brian Mann
Oh, I'm mentally ill. You start to go, oh, well, I have less job opportunities. Well, people judge stigma, right? You think about those things. So we wanted to kind of open it up and go, all right. You think right now mentally ill, not mentally ill. But what about glitching? And that again give us the spectrum to go. There's minor glitches where I might just feel a little sad right now, but not in an hour.

00;14;33;16 - 00;14;58;28
Brian Mann
And there's major glitches where I have to go to the hospital and get medications, and that range is there. But we're all glitching at different points in our life, right? That's kind of something I think people can look at, whether you admit it, you know, publicly or not, you can go, yeah, there were times when I was I was glitching and that, I think, opened the door to go, oh, well, if it's just everyone is having these things, you know, just like I get a cold every time I kid goes back to school and I get sick, too.

00;14;59;01 - 00;15;15;28
Brian Mann
I can say, yeah, daddy glitches sometimes. And, you know, that's why last night I wasn't able to redo that book. Or, you know, I wasn't in the room for this stuff. I was glitching like, oh, yeah, just like my computer yesterday, I just, I couldn't play Roblox, but, you know, you fixed it, so it really gets. Yeah.

00;15;16;01 - 00;15;21;27
Paul Sullivan
It's so powerful because, you know, kids are watching everything that we do.

00;15;22;01 - 00;15;22;28
Brian Mann
Oh, yeah.

00;15;23;00 - 00;15;40;29
Paul Sullivan
And, you know, they're not listening to what we tell them to do. They're listening to what we say and how our actions match up with our words. And I think this is so powerful because too often, you know, parents don't talk about these things, just they don't talk about money. They don't talk about all kinds of things that they should talk about.

00;15;40;29 - 00;16;07;24
Paul Sullivan
And so to be able to say, I'm glitching, as you said, it's something that a very small child can understand and as they get older, you can give them, you know, more detail here. How does it how has it helped children, though, when you, when you apply these terms to, a child, I don't, you know, two of my kids have dyslexia, but that's not really the same thing.

00;16;07;24 - 00;16;20;19
Paul Sullivan
But I mean, is there, you know, but but like, ADHD, like, what would you call ADHD as a potential, you know, is there a glitch state term for that? I mean, I it just would be interesting to take it out of the clinical and to make it more descriptive.

00;16;20;21 - 00;16;36;06
Brian Mann
Yeah. In ADHD we had talks about kind of like, you know, seeing multiple angles or being to see multiple possibilities at once. That idea of, you know, you kind of are bouncing between things are having a lot of thoughts. And again, maybe that's something that the, other person in the room is having at this moment.

00;16;36;06 - 00;17;01;12
Brian Mann
So there are benefits to that. But to your point about kids, that's why we wanted to do kind of, you know, typical advertising stuff where we came from, art and copy. So if you're, you know, not a words person, you don't like to read books, maybe you can understand the pictures. And it goes back and forth and an exercise we did with both of our kids, we said, you know, hey, you know, think about the last time you were really kind of upset or, you know, had these big feelings, big emotions, and sit down, let's draw a picture together.

00;17;01;12 - 00;17;16;06
Brian Mann
Show me what that looked like. You know, and things came back like, you know. Oh, well, when my brother, you know, when, when he took that away from me, that four year old kid took that away from me. Here's what I look like. Right? We're like, okay, let's see it. And there was fire shooting out of their heads.

00;17;16;06 - 00;17;32;12
Brian Mann
There was tears streaming down their eyes. Right. And you don't necessarily see that in the moment. You might just get like, oh yeah, he took my thing and I'm going to go to my room now. So. Right. I didn't see those feelings. I just saw the separation. But to be able to have a kid sit down and sketch, I think, you know, art therapy is a thing.

00;17;32;12 - 00;17;54;00
Brian Mann
It's very therapeutic, to be able to do that. And then other kids going, I'm going to write a little, you know, a couple of words about this, like, you know, angry, mad, disappointed. And just listing that stuff out. So again, it kind of helps them go, oh, dad wants me to tell me, how I'm feeling, you know, versus this kind of awkward conversation where you're sitting in the background, so, you know, you're upset.

00;17;54;00 - 00;18;01;20
Brian Mann
How would you say, how's your mental health today? Six year old. And they're going to be like, what are you talking about?

00;18;01;22 - 00;18;21;20
Paul Sullivan
I love it, I love it, you know? Question five, you've got big aspirations for this. And and I love that, you know, what is the plan? To take in a glitz stage to more of a national awareness campaign? And one of the things you talked about in the past was how there are a lot of a lot of, you know, posters and a lot of ads.

00;18;21;20 - 00;18;40;24
Paul Sullivan
It is trying to make people aware of mental health challenges, but they're often the image of the sad person and kind of sepia toned. You're where your images are so arresting and they demand that you look at them. So. So what is a plan for I think you're calling it the Good Life movement. But what is the plan?

00;18;40;27 - 00;18;43;18
Paul Sullivan
To sort of raise awareness. Yes.

00;18;43;24 - 00;19;00;02
Brian Mann
What's scary. So right now, you know, we started Paula's, you know, we have an Instagram account, we've got a website with some, you know, simple merch if people want to share that kind of movement. But we want it to go beyond that. And we saw it kind of being potentially brand collaborations. We thought about, you know, had the gap partnered with the Red eventually.

00;19;00;04 - 00;19;19;29
Brian Mann
Things like that. But the good Life movement, what you're talking about, there's you know, this organization who wants to be the American Cancer Society of Mental Health? You know, when you think about cancer, you think about them. They're everywhere. So we're actually we're working with them to create a campaign, of rebranding kind of what you said of those images, because you think about it, you know, you're busy during your day.

00;19;19;29 - 00;19;43;10
Brian Mann
You see an ad about whatever it is, say, suicide. It's a heavy topic, right? Let's be honest. And there might be you might not feel like looking at that at that moment in time. So that's what we were trying to get past kind of that apathy or that kind of, you know, energy drain. And, you know, one example for, the work that we do with the Good Life movement is an ad campaign, talking about there's 11, you know, every 11 minutes there's a suicide in the United States.

00;19;43;10 - 00;20;04;16
Brian Mann
Again, very heavy topic, and stuff. So how do you make that palatable for someone to want to read it and to share it and to maybe be outraged about that, right, and go, wow, how do I stop? How do I help? Because that's that's wild. I didn't know that was the number. So anyway, we're trying to lend out that college language, and we have a campaign where there's this kid on the playground and, you know, they're kind of just pixelated.

00;20;04;16 - 00;20;22;18
Brian Mann
They're glitching. There's a video that we're doing where guys playing basketball, and all of a sudden he just disappears into nothing on the court, right? Like, where the hell did he go? And then the language comes on. Every 11 minutes, somebody glitches away. And again, it's very much kind of this little mysterious little, like glitches away. It doesn't hit you as hard as you know.

00;20;22;18 - 00;20;38;05
Brian Mann
Again, the word suicide. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's powerful. So we want to ease people into these conversations, to give them, again, language that you can say at the water cooler, a coffee with somewhere to go. Hey, no such thing about glitching away. And that's, you know, it's like, why every 11 minutes, that happens.

00;20;38;05 - 00;20;55;07
Brian Mann
Suicide in the United States, right. You kind of ease into it versus I just see these big words first. So that's what we're really trying to do with the branding element. And we do want to lend this language to other brands and to collaborate with people, and to encourage people to use it themselves freely. You know, on social media or in talks with their children.

00;20;55;13 - 00;21;11;09
Brian Mann
Go ahead and use the language in the visuals we're putting out to the world. If it resonates with you, if it can help a family friend or go, hey, you say that anxiety is, is it like this? And they go, oh my God, it's it is like that or not like that exactly. But a little like this. That's what our, our bigger mission is.

00;21;11;14 - 00;21;27;23
Brian Mann
So whether it's t shirts, whether it's advertisements, brand collaborations, music, we are open to all kinds of creativity. And you know that to have a true rebrand where people want to be part of this, right? And to wear a shirt that says, what's your glitch? What's your glitch fall? Because mine is this, and you might sync up, right?

00;21;27;23 - 00;21;34;16
Brian Mann
You might see someone on stream go, we got the same glitch. This is crazy. Let's talk. Let's let's understand each other. That's the dream.

00;21;34;18 - 00;21;46;26
Paul Sullivan
Brian Mann, co-founder of glitch, states, absolutely fascinating stuff that you didn't tell. Tell people how they can find you at the real summit. Tell people how they can find you online.

00;21;46;29 - 00;22;06;22
Brian Mann
Absolutely. So we'll be at the real summit, October 28th in 29th in New York City. We're going to be exhibiting they're doing custom portraits, showing off the work so you can get us in person at the conference. We'd love to meet you all. And then also we have the Instagram handle, at glitch states on Instagram, and then glitch states.com, which is the store in the manifesto.

00;22;06;29 - 00;22;15;23
Brian Mann
But yeah, if anyone wants to go to the Instagram DM us. We're happy to talk to people, collaborate and, you know, see what we can bring to the community. If it helps.

00;22;15;26 - 00;22;16;22
Paul Sullivan
Thanks again Brian.

00;22;16;22 - 00;22;20;09
Brian Mann
Fascinating talk. Absolutely. Thank you Paul.

00;22;20;11 - 00;22;40;17
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to another episode of the of dads podcast. Really appreciate you tuning in week after week, trying to use this moment here to thank the people who make it possible. Number one, of course, Helder Moura, who is our podcast editor. We also have Skip Terry Home, so many of you know from Lead Diaries, he's taken over our social media.

00;22;40;17 - 00;23;01;12
Paul Sullivan
Terry Brennan is helping us with our audience development. And Emily Servant is there, each and every day helping with the web development and can't do any of this without, an amazing board, of advisors. So I just want to say thank you to all of you who help. And I want to say thank you to everyone who listened.

00;23;01;12 - 00;23;04;24
Paul Sullivan
And, hopefully you'll tune in again next week. Thanks so much.