EP154: Disruption, Belonging & Better School Communication

Interview with Ben Sacco / Author of "Disruption in Schools: Understand me Before You Mark me"

HOSTED BY PAUL SULLIVAN

How do we really know what our kids are trying to tell us - even when they can’t put it into words? Ben Sacco, author of Disruption in Schools: Understand Me Before You Mark Me, reframes how we think about classroom behavior. He explains why “disruption” is often a sign of adversity - not misbehavior - and how parents can spot the real signals beneath a child’s shutdowns, boredom, or the classic “school was good” response. Ben also shares practical strategies for recognizing when behavior is actually communication, helping parents and teachers respond with clarity, compassion, and consistency.

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Transcript

00;00;00;01 - 00;00;19;26
Ben Sacco
If our children start to, be more introverted when we know their extroverted kids, it's that change of behavior that we want to be aware of. As a statement, sorry, without a question. Sometimes saying to to our children, what's wrong? And that actually puts them off more. But encouraging dialog and looking at saying, help me understand what's happening for you this week at school.

00;00;19;28 - 00;00;43;10
Ben Sacco
And kids of all ages can tell us that some will do it through art, some will do it through verbally, and some will do it through behavior. They might be aggressive one afternoon and you got where did that come from? You know, and so it's just trying to draw out a really healthy dialog, and be aware of behavior change in our own kids.

00;00;43;12 - 00;01;10;07
Paul Sullivan
Welcome to the Company Dads podcast. I'm your host, Paul Sullivan. We're focused on lead dads, working moms, and how small changes at home or work can have a big impact on their lives. Each episode promises to deliver actionable advice on some areas of concern at home or at work. Short, direct. Again. Actionable five questions. Five answers. Today we're talking to Ben Sacco, author of Disruption in Schools.

00;01;10;10 - 00;01;36;26
Paul Sullivan
Understand me. Before you mark me. The book is about responding to daily realities in classrooms around how children behave. Ben is a managing director of Education Economy, which works with schools and education systems to create the conditions for quality teaching, engage learning and whole school well-being. Here's some trivia A couple decades ago, Ben was on Australian Idol. Today, in addition to his work in education.

00;01;36;28 - 00;01;45;09
Paul Sullivan
He's the father of two kids, five and seven, and lives in Melbourne, Australia. Welcome, Ben to the Company Dads podcast.

00;01;45;11 - 00;01;48;15
Ben Sacco
Yeah, thank you for having me, Paul. I got to love a good trivia question, right?

00;01;48;23 - 00;01;54;25
Paul Sullivan
Do you want to sing something you hate? Before I ask you a question, what do you want to like? You don't have to break into song, but you can if you want.

00;01;54;28 - 00;01;57;23
Ben Sacco
Yeah. No, I appreciate that. I reckon, let's see how we go.

00;01;57;26 - 00;02;19;13
Paul Sullivan
All right. Maybe. Maybe you'll sing the outro at the end. People can, if they listen to the end. Maybe there'll be a little song there. As promised, five questions, five answers. And, I just love what you're doing, because I've got, three kids. And you know what we call in the states? Elementary, middle and and high school.

00;02;19;13 - 00;02;42;21
Paul Sullivan
So three different parts of their educational journey. And in this year for all three of them is going amazing. But that's not always been the case. It's just not not natural. So, you know, question one is really, you know, what the parents need to know about how disruption is handled in schools that they don't know.

00;02;42;22 - 00;03;14;29
Ben Sacco
It's one of those things, actually, that I want to put straight out there that I'm still learning, as well as a dead end, education professional. And I'm looking at the way in which disruption can be a range of things. It can be technology and the advancements and the way that society is, is changing. But also how we, responding to pressures in our classrooms as teachers and how we're engaging with parents, and as a parent and an education professional, how even I engage with, with my own kids school, you know, and give space to teachers to do their work.

00;03;14;29 - 00;03;34;10
Ben Sacco
But as a parent, kind of learn, the process that the school is, is going through, to, to educate my child. And so it's really, disruption is really looking at, I try and term it is adversity. What, what adversity is happening in someone's life that might, have the potential to derail their, their success in their day, or their week.

00;03;34;16 - 00;03;53;06
Ben Sacco
So as parents, we're always on the lookout for, what's going to stop a smooth, fun, exciting day for our young people? And our children? And I always come back to curiosity, how do we create days full of curiosity for our kids when they ask why at the, you know, under the ten years of age, they ask why a lot.

00;03;53;12 - 00;04;11;21
Ben Sacco
How are we responding to that and not shutting them down? And and when they're teenagers, how we kind of engage in their interests at a, at a point where we're also showing them their interests might lead to pathways for future careers or just general life happiness. So I play in that space around disruption and not always disruption being a bad thing.

00;04;11;21 - 00;04;30;17
Paul Sullivan
Oh yeah. And so let's drill down on that before I get to the question too. You know, when you think of disruption, you know, what exactly does it mean. Because you can think of, you know, a classroom full of, of five year olds and it can be in a very exuberant and everyone is very happy, but perhaps there's disruption there.

00;04;30;17 - 00;04;48;11
Paul Sullivan
And then you can think of a classroom full of 15, 16 year olds. And what disruption might look like would be very different. So when is disruption something that you would identify that parents might need to be concerned about in terms of how teachers teachers manage it?

00;04;48;13 - 00;05;18;03
Ben Sacco
Yeah. I would say, when disruption, looks like it's stopping the, the learning for their children in the classroom, but not bringing with that the judgment that it's because of another human being's behavior. By that, I mean, we tend to say that classroom behavior and disruption through true behavior is is on the rise. There's a lot of research globally showing different, parts of the world where disruption, as it's termed, misbehavior is, is stopping the learning from happening.

00;05;18;05 - 00;05;34;01
Ben Sacco
What I look at, whether it's in the book or in my advocacy, is disruption, is really looking at what if we, as parents are not setting up the right conditions prior to the kids going to school, so they're already disrupted heading into the classroom. So what can we do differently to create a transition in the morning to school?

00;05;34;05 - 00;05;54;13
Ben Sacco
So the kids feel like school is a protective place for them, and it's an exciting, curious, learning environment for them. But then as teachers, one of the things that teachers might need to re reframe around how they create learning environments so that young people feel psychologically safe and feel excited about the learning that's going to happen because because they've got visibility on that.

00;05;54;15 - 00;06;22;07
Ben Sacco
It's sometimes for me it's about looking at, disruption can can be that a, you know, as a school needs to stop what they're doing because of something happening outside the school. But it actually is a good disruption, kids. Move to a safe area if there's a, a threat to, to something happening in the, you know, the peace happening in the classroom, doesn't always have to be, negatively, negative connotation to the word, though, you know, so I look at it from that perspective, to be honest.

00;06;22;07 - 00;06;23;03
Ben Sacco
Well.

00;06;23;06 - 00;06;43;16
Paul Sullivan
Yeah. That's great. So so question to we try to get a specific as we can to sort of give people good takeaways. And you know, I have three kids of my youngest has dyslexia and some other learning challenges. And when she came home from kindergarten, she said it's boring. And of course, you know, no kid really says kindergarten is boring because it's joyful.

00;06;43;16 - 00;07;07;26
Paul Sullivan
And we'd already had some other signs, you know, in her young life. And we knew that, she had struggles. So boring for her was code that she didn't even understand how what it would be like to be an emerging reader. So that was obvious for us, but we sort of knew it was coming down the highway. When you think of other parents who are not don't have the signals going in, you know, what are the signs?

00;07;07;28 - 00;07;37;29
Paul Sullivan
For parents that things are not going well and school and it's not something their children can necessarily control. These are not in a band, kids. These are kids who are in a situation. But, you know, fast forward to teenagers. They come home and you ask them how school is and they say, good. And so what are those signs that parents look for beyond, you know, a child who, who lacks the ability to really, really express what they're feeling?

00;07;38;02 - 00;07;49;20
Ben Sacco
Yeah. Behavior is a form of communication. So, you know, young people that say school was good. We need to try and elaborate. What is it about school that made you feel. And that's a hard one. As a parent, have.

00;07;49;23 - 00;07;51;18
Paul Sullivan
Lunch, lunch and recess. That's the answer.

00;07;51;18 - 00;08;09;04
Ben Sacco
Yeah. That's right. But when when just coming back to your point to when I, you, when a child says to the parent on board or the that this, this is not, I'm not excited about school or like, those things for me as a parent and an education professional that I look for, do they feel like they there's a sense of belonging.

00;08;09;08 - 00;08;27;15
Ben Sacco
Do they feel isolated? Do they have friendship groups that are actually healthy? And so the signs are looking for if a young person or a child is if our children start to, be more introverted when we know their extroverted kids, it's that change of behavior that we want to be aware of as a statement.

00;08;27;15 - 00;08;45;10
Ben Sacco
Sorry, without a question. Sometimes signs to our children, what's wrong? And that actually puts them off more. But encouraging dialog and looking at saying, help me understand what's happening for you this week at school. And kids of all ages can tell us that some will do it through art, some will do it through verbally, and some will do it through behavior.

00;08;45;10 - 00;09;04;06
Ben Sacco
They might be aggressive one afternoon and you go, where did that come from? You know, and so it's just trying to draw out a really healthy dialog, and be aware of behavior change in our own kids. And I do always say, Paul, we know our kids behavior as parents much more deeply than, than in education setting would they say different behaviors.

00;09;04;06 - 00;09;18;25
Ben Sacco
They see kids trying to fit in to a classroom environment. We see our kids, just in their their are this sort of authentic self at home, you know, and I think that there's a real role for us as parents to back our gut and our instinct around behavior change that we notice.

00;09;18;28 - 00;09;35;10
Paul Sullivan
You know, when parents miss these signals, they blame themselves and they blame themselves years later. But are that common signals or common signs that parents should be on the lookout for that would signal that perhaps something is is awry.

00;09;35;12 - 00;09;52;18
Ben Sacco
Really tricky, isn't it? The common ones would be around shut down behavior. If we know that our child is talkative and they're refusing to engage with us over a period of time, it might be a full day or couple of days where we're seeing isolated behavior. There is. We need to trust ourselves and say, that's not like Little John.

00;09;52;25 - 00;10;14;27
Ben Sacco
That's not like, you know, little Sue. We want to, we want to say the the eating behaviors might change for for adolescents, the risky behaviors might increase all of a sudden this late night, want to be going out? They might be, dabbling in things, finding things around the house that are just, misplaced forgetfulness in young people is often a sign that they're dealing with something complex in their mind.

00;10;15;03 - 00;10;37;25
Ben Sacco
We call that cognitive load. Some that deal with complex trauma might be, look irritable. Bullying cases. We often see changes of behavior in terms of erratic behavior, quick to defend and protect the self sort of preservation. So, I think it's really hard to say, even even with someone with my knowledge, I can predict when my child is hurting.

00;10;37;25 - 00;10;55;22
Ben Sacco
And I can help because I will miss it, too. I often advocate for us being a bit more human and kind and understanding that we're not always going to going to get it. That's why there's initiatives like, are you okay to kind of highlight the that we need to sort of just be present where we can and, and do the best job we think we're doing.

00;10;55;25 - 00;11;02;13
Ben Sacco
But we've got to be careful. We're not terribly hard on ourselves when we miss something that comes out later. Yeah.

00;11;02;15 - 00;11;30;26
Paul Sullivan
So, you know, question three. For society to function, we need to rely on institutions doing their jobs. We need to trust that, the doctors are well trained. We need to trust that, police environment are acting in our best interests. We need to trust that, educators, have our children's best interest at heart, as well.

00;11;30;26 - 00;11;52;08
Paul Sullivan
So you can't. But, you know, the reality is, sometimes there is that, conflict with the school. So how do you advise parents to deal with schools when those teachers in the schools are perhaps not handling their children's disruptive behavior appropriately?

00;11;52;10 - 00;11;55;20
Ben Sacco
Yeah. Deep breathing.

00;11;55;22 - 00;11;57;29
Paul Sullivan
There's only so much box breathing we could have.

00;11;57;29 - 00;12;15;16
Ben Sacco
Yeah. That's right, that's right. But, you know, we're all human. And so the way, I would always suggest to parents, even when I was in school roles myself, would be to approach with the the facts of what's happening and try and minimize, the heavy hitting emotion that that can take away from this.

00;12;15;19 - 00;12;19;14
Paul Sullivan
Like, yes, you suck my kids says you suck.

00;12;19;16 - 00;12;38;04
Ben Sacco
Yeah. I'm, to be honest, I'm an I'm an open book when I used to later, rather a parent tell me I'm not. I'm really not happy with you. They'll use different language, sometimes colorful. That's. They can be disrespectful, but I understand the passion. I'm reading that they're passionate. I'm not accepting that treatment with no one deserves to be abused in their profession.

00;12;38;06 - 00;12;42;28
Ben Sacco
But when we separate the the emotion of being a human and an advocate for it's.

00;12;43;01 - 00;12;45;14
Paul Sullivan
Not the what they're saying, but the why they're saying it.

00;12;45;14 - 00;13;05;25
Ben Sacco
That's right. And that's what I wanted to come to. I really believe that we lack that. Like globally, the research continues to talk about being, parents really connecting with their kids, not always being friends, being friendly, but being a real guide and steward. Of of the pathway for, for kids values, systems, beliefs, developing all these wonderful things.

00;13;05;25 - 00;13;28;25
Ben Sacco
But when we have disagreements, it becomes, very clear that maybe a biological need we go at each other, right? The strongest, the toughest will will win. But the relationship suffers, ruptures, fractures. So who really wins in that? And I sort of look at it from the point of view of, let's just do a relationship that is strong and founded on this, this relationship where we both care about each other and your child.

00;13;29;01 - 00;13;51;13
Ben Sacco
And then when stuff doesn't go well, let's raise it and talk about it and work the problem, not not harbor it and hold on to it. And the thing that schools do incorrectly, I think, is they they say parents will take care of it, and then parents don't get that visibility of what's really been taken care of. The list in the doc a little bit, and it's not always intentional about school, busy places, but we can do better.

00;13;51;16 - 00;14;09;04
Ben Sacco
Parents want to know that their child is being looked after, so we have to give them that assurance as much as we give them an assurance curriculum will be delivered, which we tend to do that more than we do the assurance around how are we going to look after their child with tangible, practical things, not just words on a on a, on a on a letter that says we're looking into it.

00;14;09;06 - 00;14;32;06
Paul Sullivan
Right. And it's also more easier or easier sometimes to say, like, look, the test scores are great. And the test scores show that, you know, Bob and Sally are learning at a very high level, but that doesn't get to the social emotional. Yeah, right. Is that something that perhaps it or sometimes we're asking, you know, too much of of of schools.

00;14;32;09 - 00;14;50;17
Ben Sacco
Not look, I'm a big fan of saying we actually need to be realistic with what we're expecting. We talk a lot in education. We're going to go above and beyond. In fact, we talk in in human services professions, right? We want to go above and beyond to help those that we're serving. I don't actually think we can really go above and beyond.

00;14;50;17 - 00;14;55;09
Ben Sacco
I think we should be more realistic. We we have a and but, you know, because we felt.

00;14;55;11 - 00;14;59;20
Paul Sullivan
Like below and underneath instead of above and beyond, we're going to go below and underneath.

00;14;59;23 - 00;15;27;22
Ben Sacco
And it's a great it's a great conversation. Just realistic. Let's just set realistic approaches to help the human being where we're helping and measure that, succeed in that and move forward. I think that to your point, we often report on academics, but then we leave out the personable stuff like, you know, the charisma of your child or the compassion that I see in your child helping new students know where the toilets are or the, you know, just we don't report on that, enough.

00;15;27;22 - 00;15;51;17
Ben Sacco
If in some sectors in parts of the world at all, we're very literacy, numeracy driven, I totally get it on that. But we also need to be human centered and person driven, especially when we know these are things that that mean humanity and humankind. Really, it feeds on compassion and empathy and connection. But great, great to have a little report card that says, how well does your child show compassion and empathy?

00;15;51;17 - 00;16;00;09
Ben Sacco
Yeah. And parents would love that. Wow. You know, my child, you know, so I'm, I'm a big advocate of getting the balance, right. Yeah, I love it.

00;16;00;15 - 00;16;29;08
Paul Sullivan
Question for, you know, all kids act out, all adults, you know, act. Yeah. We're inbounds and out of bounds. It we're trying to figure out who we are. Yeah. But you know parent teacher siblings friend they're going to react. How do you how do you help people understand what's really happening to a child who is acting out and to respond in, in a better way?

00;16;29;10 - 00;16;54;05
Ben Sacco
Yeah. We have to spend time trying to understand what's driving or motivating the individual to behave a certain way. And often that means we should talk less as parents, and we should let young people give them the time to then talk. So a quick example is I could be in a school doing some coaching with a teacher, and they'll ask 2 or 3 questions with no pause in between, and they want the same information.

00;16;54;05 - 00;17;10;16
Ben Sacco
It might be, for example, tell me why you did that. And then they say, why did you do that? I don't hear anything. What's the reason? You and I'm, I'm sitting there with this young kid, seven year old. So he's trying to process three questions, not realizing developmentally they're all asking the same thing. And he's the cool thing.

00;17;10;16 - 00;17;29;27
Ben Sacco
When you help parents and teachers learn some basics around body and brain, science. We realize that sometimes young kids under a lot of, a lot of us actually under pressure, and this will be a great area that I'm sure you can talk to, but we we operate a certain way under pressure. We kick into a response mode to survive the threat that we perceive.

00;17;30;03 - 00;17;48;24
Ben Sacco
And if you're being questioned as a young person, it's easy to go, I don't know, and shrug the shoulders. And so let's talking of us and the right kind of, statement pieces for kids like, help me understand why you might have done that. That doesn't mean we don't. Then look at consequences. Society needs consequences. But it's an education piece.

00;17;48;26 - 00;18;07;24
Ben Sacco
This is why you're going to need to stay in at lunchtime. And show us that you want to contribute to the classroom environment, or this is why you're not getting ice cream before dinner, or why TV is is is banned for the week. You know, there has to be an explanation piece with that, right? But let's let's draw out the why first from kids.

00;18;07;27 - 00;18;08;20
Ben Sacco


00;18;08;23 - 00;18;29;04
Paul Sullivan
I love that, you know, there's so many great stories about, you know, parents harmlessly overreact and this is, you know, and more. And I always love the story where, you know, I was a friend, a business journalist, before starting the company dads and it out of the, you know, the a almost apocryphal story of of the child as a parent, you know, where does money come from?

00;18;29;04 - 00;18;45;15
Paul Sullivan
And the parent goes into this, this of disquisition as to where money comes from and all of this. Yeah. But then the child says, well, no, no, no, where does money come from? And they're pointing to the bank pushing the point into the ATM. And they want to know, like how the money physically gets in the ATM that comes out.

00;18;45;15 - 00;19;01;08
Paul Sullivan
And sometimes I think I love the your response because we're too quick to to judge, we're too quick to answer. Or in your example, we're going to ask those three questions, you know, boom, boom, boom, as opposed to sitting back and trying to understand, you know, what were yeah, at the time.

00;19;01;11 - 00;19;21;14
Ben Sacco
But but there's a large sort of body of work here. And if we take time to understand how beneficial that is and others would say we're giving in to the kids, we're always giving in to this generation. And, and I'm following a lot of work around generation beta and these, these young, these next generation that'll in the next five years they'll start their first year of schooling.

00;19;21;14 - 00;19;42;14
Ben Sacco
They're going to be so immersed in the way technology is in the world. A phone is like a flower in the dirt. It exists, it's around them. And, and I look at it and say, what we're trying to do is we're trying to lean into to, you know, future generations. We're not giving in where we're still in control, but not in an, in an authority, sort of a way of being authority driven.

00;19;42;14 - 00;20;02;29
Ben Sacco
We're in control around giving them conditions to be curious, to explore, to ask questions, to fail. You know, if I if I put a my daughter the other day, she came he's he's a fun one. Right. My daughter the other day I'd said, daddy, the drain is blocked in the bathroom. And so, you know, I go and what's the first thing that someone's going to say at age seven when you say, how did the drain get blocked?

00;20;03;06 - 00;20;15;14
Ben Sacco
She said, I don't know. But the smile and the body language tells me, oh, I think she does know. So I said it. She what would it be? And she says, oh, maybe paper got in there. And I thought.

00;20;15;14 - 00;20;16;11
Paul Sullivan
Maybe I love the.

00;20;16;11 - 00;20;39;25
Ben Sacco
Maybe paper from the printer downstairs. Got into the upstairs toilet drain. Anyway, as it turned out, paper did get in there. Not toilet paper, which we know is designed. Recyclable toilet paper, sort of bright, bright spot. When I opened it up and showed her, I said to her, I don't know who did this, but I'll be good to know so we can tell them and help them understand what the impact would be.

00;20;39;27 - 00;20;57;04
Ben Sacco
Anyway, she says to me, dad, do you know what? I did that, and I didn't realize that she's seven, right? And she says, if I did that again, would it would it block the drain again? And I said, yes. And we had this great conversation. So when her little sister walks in and she then says, don't you put paper down?

00;20;57;04 - 00;21;17;09
Ben Sacco
I've learned that it blocks, you know, and I thought, wow, now she's teaching, right? So she's taken an opportunity where she hasn't felt she felt supported to learn the process of what happens. There's no need to ban her from a bathroom. You know, when she needs to wash your face or brush your teeth. But what we're trying to do is create the citizen thinking, if I do something, what's the impact on me and others?

00;21;17;11 - 00;21;25;18
Ben Sacco
And there's still there's no consequence in that situation. That's a great learning opportunity. And she's better for it. The drain is not being blocked since, you know, then.

00;21;25;18 - 00;21;38;05
Paul Sullivan
But then what kind of what kind of adult you raising there? She should have blamed her little sister. That is the way out of this. This is what is. Yes. You create an adult who accepts responsibility and understands her actions.

00;21;38;08 - 00;21;56;15
Ben Sacco
Well, actually, in one case. In one case, I might file into another. So right when parents, we're learning as we go, we won't always get it right. But but you know what? Yeah, it's really exciting, isn't it? To your point, it's a win for for parents. It's a win for for dads giving it a go. The easy thing is for for even me in my upbringing.

00;21;56;15 - 00;22;26;12
Ben Sacco
Right. And the ideas and society to just finger point, tell off, ban them from something. I've just had too good of a career where I've seen so many different ways in human services professions, in teaching and community service organizations where actually we can get the same outcome without putting young people in a harmful situation, because compliant kids through approaches that are punitive and harmful to their development, that that's only creating obedience through harsh compliance.

00;22;26;12 - 00;22;41;12
Ben Sacco
I want to create really a where young people, in, in my own two children who contribute to society, and think about their actions, and how it's going to impact those around them, not just themselves. I'm working on it. It'll take a while.

00;22;41;14 - 00;23;02;23
Paul Sullivan
I love it, Ben. Question five. You know, I don't know if I'm sure this concept is over there in Australia, but in America, we talk a lot about helicopter parents, you know? Yeah. Swoop in. We talk about snowplow parents who, you know, push everything out of their way. But we're we're talking about, you know, kids with disruptive behaviors, kids who may need some help, they may need some guidance.

00;23;02;23 - 00;23;19;16
Paul Sullivan
They may need some, explanation. What a better way to help kids who are struggling in school to really help them and not be those snowplow parents who try to remove all the obstacles in their path?

00;23;19;18 - 00;23;42;01
Ben Sacco
Yeah. I would say that we what we don't do well, but but to a degree, I think this this is a really good thing to think about is how we actually work better together. Partnerships between school and parents and, have our behind closed door conversations when we want to disagree because young people are processing, mum and dad are fighting for me, and then they're processing.

00;23;42;01 - 00;24;13;28
Ben Sacco
That means I can do stuff and they're always going to defend it. And sometimes, I think it's helpful when schools and parents meet separately and kind of nut out what's actually going on here. And how do we actually come together in this way? We operate in silos a lot as against you. To be honest, I think society in general, watching the last sort of decade in, in different countries, but Australia in particular, we have great division in certain areas of our thoughts, how we want to run education, how we want to parent, how politicians should operate.

00;24;13;28 - 00;24;33;21
Ben Sacco
And, I would love us to come together more and actually say, look, here's a list of the things that we're all battling. What are the common kind of common ground? What are the common things we want to want to do differently and do it together? And one of the, the easiest things is to actually build relationships from the start, parents and schools working better together.

00;24;33;24 - 00;24;53;07
Ben Sacco
But I totally understand. And this is the part that I think is controversial. I'm a dad, and I'll come and advocate for my child, but I'm also an educationalist, so I understand what it's like to get that that parent come at me. Yeah. So I'm, I'm still learning how to be a dad. And a husband as well as a person in education who advocates.

00;24;53;07 - 00;25;14;27
Ben Sacco
And even I, get it, get it wrong. You know, I go, I go sometimes a little bit too passionate. I think just coming back down to, what are we doing this for? And it's for a future for our children, and separate the the strong emotion where we can and look at the facts. Let's get to work on the problem and and do this.

00;25;14;29 - 00;25;28;17
Paul Sullivan
Love it. Ben Sacco, author of Disruption in Schools, Understand me before you mark me and the managing director of Education Economy, thank you for being my guest today on the Company Dads podcast.

00;25;28;19 - 00;25;30;01
Ben Sacco
Thanks for having me, Paul. It's been great.

00;25;30;06 - 00;25;36;21
Paul Sullivan
And one last chance. Do you want to sing us out? Do you want to go back to that Australian Idol route and sing us out?

00;25;36;24 - 00;25;43;05
Ben Sacco
I probably want to allow people to be curious and go searching. Yeah.

00;25;43;07 - 00;25;47;21
Paul Sullivan
Even better. Thank you, Ben, for your time today. I really appreciate it.

00;25;47;24 - 00;25;49;12
Ben Sacco
Thank you.

00;25;49;14 - 00;26;09;23
Paul Sullivan
Thank you for listening to another episode of the Company of Dads podcast. Really appreciate you tuning in week after week to only use this moment here to thank the people who make it possible. Number one, of course, Helder Mira, who is our podcast editor. We also have Skip Terry home to many of you know from Lead Diaries he's taken over our social media.

00;26;09;23 - 00;26;30;14
Paul Sullivan
Terry Brennan is helping us with our audience development. And Emily Servant is there. Each and every day helping with the web development and can't do any of this without, an amazing board, of advisors. So I just want to say thank you to all of you who help. And I want to say thank you to everyone who listens.

00;26;30;14 - 00;26;33;28
Paul Sullivan
And, hopefully you'll tune in again next week. Thanks so much.