Let’s Get Physical: How Women Discovered Exercise and Reshaped the World — with author, DANIELLE FRIEDMAN

Today I speak with Danielle Friedman, an award-winning journalist and a regular contributor to The New York Times’ Well section, where she has written about everything from the joys of being a slow runner to the importance of pelvic floor conditioning. She is also the author of Let’s Get Physical: How Women Discovered Exercise and Reshaped the World, which was selected as a New Yorker and Amazon Best Book of 2022. She lives in New York City with her husband and their two young sons. 

She is a passionate believer in the ways that movement can benefit mental health and instill a sense of strength that extends beyond muscles and into other areas of our lives — and an advocate for making movement inclusive of and accessible to every body. Danielle is also a fierce advocate for speaking openly about women’s bodies and lived experiences, and de-stigmatizing areas of women’s health that have historically been considered too taboo for polite conversation. 

We talk about: 

-history of women’s fitness 

-leaders of the different fitness movements 

-exercising for joy 

-loosing control 

-the value of community 

-“back of the pack” athletes 

-exercise for mental health 

Time Stamps 

1:00 introduction 

2:02 beginning the research for her book 

7:40 the idea of a “good body” 

11:25 fitness going into pregnancy 

16:51 pregnancy loss and subsequent pregnancies 

21:21 transitioning to two kids 

24:20 the value of community 

33:40 biggest impacts and what’s next 

38:50 raising boys in a modern world 

43:35 rapid fire questions 

CONNECT WITH CARRIE 

IG: https://www.instagram.com/carriepagliano/ 

Website: https://carriepagliano.com 

CONNECT WITH DANIELLE 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/daniellefriedmanwrites/ 

Website: https://danielle-friedman.com/ 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

If you're tuning in to be active as a physical therapist, that's a very technical. If you're a postpartum, coach, trainer, or physical therapist looking for answers on how to get back to running pick, you name it without the fear of public for issues or doing something wrong. This is the podcast for you. Let's start the show. All right. Today we have another author and journalist on the podcast. And I have become such an advocate for these voices in the pregnancy and postpartum and just exercise space because if they're on board, their megaphones are loud. And I'm super excited to have author Daniel Friedman on today because her megaphone is big and loud. She is the author of Let's Get Physical, How Women Discovered, Exercise, and Reshape the World. And it's my new favorite book. So thank you for being on the show. I'm so excited to have you on. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. All right. So tell us a little bit about who you are, where you live, how many kids you have, all that good stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

Hi, I'm Danielle Friedman. I am a mom to two boys. My oldest just turned five, and I also have a 10-month-old. I live in New York City. And I, as you mentioned, I'm the author of Let's Get Physical, which is a cultural history of women's fitness. And I am also, I'm a journalist. I've been uh primarily a health and culture journalist and editor for 20 years. And um I currently cover fitness and health for the New York Times well section.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

So you get to hit all the things. You literally get to hit like the fun stuff, pregnancy postpartum. We've chatted a bit about that. And then your book too, where you just cover exercise and females, which I love. But you started the research for this book after your first pregnancy, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:04

Actually, it was yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

The the sort of time has no meaning right now in the last five years. It really doesn't.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

It really doesn't. Um, yeah, basically, I'll tell you the quick origin story, which is um, so the the idea, the the seed was first planted actually when I was getting ready for my wedding, um, which was about a year or so before that first pregnancy. Um, and I I've always been a runner, a slow runner, as I've written about, but um in a very stereotypical way before the wedding, I decided to check out some bar classes in my neighborhood. And um because I was brand new to this whole kind of boutique fitness scene, I and I'm a feminist journalist, I just I couldn't like take my feminist health journalist hat off while I was in these classes. And I really did love how strong they made me feel. I also was struck by how like many of the moves evolved these pelvic tilts and felt almost sort of sexual in a way that nobody was um acknowledging. And so I at first I was like, I want to look into whether bar, how you know, whether it can impact sexual health and pelvic floor health. And that research sent me down a rabbit hole. Uh, and I discovered that bar was created by this like fascinating, really complicated woman in the late 1950s in London, um named Lottie Burke, who uh had escaped Nazi persecution in Germany. And sure enough, she was ahead of her time in terms of kind of um, she was very open about her sexuality in class. She encouraged women to connect with their sensuality. And I wrote about her for the cut, and that was really the gateway. And so I was like, as I was researching her, I literally was like, oh, I'd love to speak with the person who wrote, you know, the book on the history of women's fitness. And I was very surprised to discover that book did not exist. And so um I also felt like I had just it was I had been given a gift, you know, and I found that for every for every major movement uh in terms of you know, in women's fitness over the past 70 years, there was this Lottie Burke like figure behind it. So that was it, it started before my wedding, and then I sold the book, you know, it took me a while. I wrote the book proposal, I you know, researched it. And then my son, my older son was um was about 10 months old himself when I sold the proposal and I started the research um right around, yeah, right around when COVID hit.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

So that probably even and it seems like it changed even some of the trajectory of the book too, because the fitness industry changed completely. Now we have all this virtual online stuff, which is like flashback to Jane Fonda and like, okay, everything's you know virtual now.

SPEAKER_03 5:07

Um yeah, yeah, it was definitely like a moving, I mean, uh moving target. Yeah, you know, even though um the book is a history, and I should say too, it's really also a history of beyond just like a series of fads, you know, how women's pursuit of physical strength, particularly during times when women were told that, you know, pushing themselves would make their uterus fall out, uh, how that led to other forms of um, you know, of physical autonomy and self-determination and all of these things. And so I was writing this history, but of course, yeah, at the same time, I mean, like so much of what was true in the fall of 2019 just was kind of blown up by uh the following fall in terms of gym, you know, gym culture, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

I feel like Peloton would have gone out of business had it not been for the pandemic. Like they are so lucky because I know there was that commercial. Do you remember the holiday commercial?

SPEAKER_03 6:13

How could I forget? I and it trust me, I was like, oh my God, they're like, this is right out of the 1950s playbook of like, yeah, shape yourself, you know, shape your figure for your man, even if you hate it.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Well, and that's something that I I found kind of as a theme as we go back, because I I'm at this point now and in in you know, 10 10 years out from my youngest, where I'm looking back and I'm like, okay, well, why aren't we any further ahead? And so when I look back in some of the stories that you shared, we all start out with this really great intention of yes, we should be stronger, we should be doing these things. And then there's like a hard left that goes, oh, but also you can be more curvy, so you're better for your man or better in bed. I'm like, wait, why do we keep taking the hard left? And and like, why the patriarchy? But like that's a bigger question.

SPEAKER_03 6:59

I know, I know. I mean, yeah, and I really saw clearly throughout all this history that as like women, as movement became more accepted for women and strength and muscles, there were these almost there were these kind of like social checks that then were like, oh, okay, yeah, you can exercise, but now the the standard that you need to strive for is like having zero fat on your body, you know, where it's like now you have to have you have to have these like sinewy visible muscles to be considered beautiful. And um yeah, it it's it's kind of um it's definitely discouraging when you look at it through that lens. However, I do think, I do think in the past five to ten years we are starting to break free from some of that.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

We are. It's it's funny. I I pulled down some old diaries for my daughter who's she's in fifth grade, and that's when I kind of started to write. And it's so funny what I would wrote, write. I'm like, okay, back to school. I'm gonna look good, feel great, my muscles will be toned. I'm like, oh my God, that was programmed in my brain at 10. Yeah. Like, do you remember kind of what your thoughts were as a kid about exercise?

SPEAKER_03 8:06

Yeah, and I will say, yeah, especially once I was like in middle school, I would always have these like every year it was like a makeover plan. It was the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

My hair is gonna look great, yeah, super cute.

SPEAKER_03 8:17

Like self-improvement was like physical improvement, you know. Um, yeah, I mean, I I think I I received kind of somewhat dueling messages throughout my childhood. I'm I'm 42, so I grew up, you know, 80s and 90s. And on one hand, I absolutely as like a child of the 80s, you know, and I'm in the book I write about the get in shape girl toy sets, which were literally these, you know, they were, they were these, it was like, so you could be like mom and wear leotard, and you know, it was the title, the the name of this Mattel uh line alone, I think speaks a lot. There was get there was great shape Barbie, so many of these, you know, messages that the purpose of exercise was to look a certain way, to be thin. And at the same time, um, both of my parents uh were and continue to be really active and have always modeled for me, taking a lot of joy in movement. Um, I my dad is like the most enthusiastic runner, and it's not about anything other than just it's almost move, you know, it's moving meditation for him. And he he definitely instilled that in me as well. And my mom, yeah, some of my earliest memories of my mom are like being four years old and and accompanying her to aerobics sitting in the babysitting area, you know. That's amazing. Yeah. So, you know, I I it's all in there. And I think it it just has it took me a few decades of life to several decades of life to kind of shed, and not that I've shed it completely, but you know, move away from the um those more patriarchal or aesthetic-based messages to focus on the joy.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm a little bit older, I'm 47. Um, and I think I grew up in a little more rural area. We didn't, we didn't have the, I don't remember that toy, but then again, like it's it might have been a couple years off. But my mom, I remember they were active in that, like we would cut wood and mow the grass and things like that, but they didn't like exercise, exercise until um I started running cross-country. And as a spectator and a parent, it's hard unless you can get to those spots quickly on the course. And that's when they started to run. And eventually my mom started to go to, she was a teacher, both my parents were. She would go to the gym at school and then go to work, or she would go swim before, or she would run. And so I look back at that and I was like, wow, you know, that was really kind of, you know, not the norm. Yeah. But I also remember, you know, she would buy the rice cakes, or there was always that weight loss piece. So I feel like we're in this weird sandwich generation where we experienced that it was about how we looked and weight loss and things like that. And then as we move forward, for us, it's become about the joy, and you got to see that with your dad. So after your wedding, like you're going into pregnancy, what are you thinking at this point? Is it still like, hey, I'm gonna be active and feel good? Um, like, what did what did pregnancy look like for you?

SPEAKER_03 11:36

Well, um, I yeah, I've so I've run one marathon in my life. I hope to run more. I um this is also giving bear with me on the timeline here. I guess it's all good. It's such a blur. I I mentioned this, okay. I had run the marathon, the New York City Marathon, about a year and a half. I think it's like, yeah, about a year and a half before I became pregnant. Okay. I I really wanted to stay active through my pregnancy, my first pregnancy, because well, for like many, many reasons, you know. I I the joy of it, the comfort that I took in moving, I wanted to feel strong. Um, but and I should say there's sort of, you know, as a kind of just caveat, I my feelings have evolved with every pregnancy experience that I had. And I don't know, um, I can get into I I happen to have very complicated pregnancies. So um that that makes it more challenging for sure. Yeah, well, yeah, basically, so I I was active through that first pregnancy and I I ran until I developed lower back pain, and then I was like, I really want to keep moving. Um, and so then I switched, you know, I I actually worked with the pelvic floor PT starting it probably like five or six months into that first pregnancy. Yeah, and like I was starting to experience some diastasis, and she helped me with that, and she just, you know, it was nice to feel like I was to not worry that I was that I was doing anything that could harm myself, and I I switched to the elliptical. Um you know, I will say, so I I was pretty anxious throughout that pregnancy. It just like it was the whole experience kind of blew my mind of not being in control of my body, you know, and the way that I had my entire adult life. I was 37. And I do think, yeah, I felt some of the drive to be active was, I'll be totally honest, was out of fear that like, you know, the I think things have improved since then, actually. But I just felt like I was taking in so much messaging around like, you know, if you do this, like you must do this, or you're going to there could be a catastrophe.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

And especially the first time around because you just don't know, and you're you're you're kind of being hit from all directions of don't do this, don't do that. You don't want to hurt your baby, and you're you don't want to do the wrong thing. Exactly. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03 14:06

And I I mean I remember like, yeah, I had like Chipotle once, and you know, it was the time when like Chipotle was dealing with there had been like a few E. coli. And I and I I was like, I'm craving it, I'm gonna have it. And then for like a week after, I would be freaking out, like, did I do, you know? And so basically though, at the end of that pregnancy, I actually at around 35 weeks, I my blood pressure shot up, and the the in like the diagnosis was basically pre-eclampsia. Um and so, and I had um just based on blood pressure alone, and so and I ended up having to have an emergency C-section and at 35 and a half weeks and scary. It was, and yeah, it took me a long time to kind of recover from that whole experience. It also taught me, I will say, like in subsequent with my most recent son, and I I had a loss in the middle, and um sorry, it yeah, that's okay. It but it in a weird way, it was like you know, I still think, and my sister is actually a gynecological surgeon, and so we talk about this stuff all the time, like the being active did help me and help it help me recover. Um, but you know, the the pre-eclampsy was also sort of like a reminder that, like, okay, you can try to do everything by the book, and ultimately for me in the future, what I I prioritized sort of being relaxed above everything else. And so that that meant approaching movement a little differently too, um, especially with my most recent pregnancy.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Yeah, no, I I I feel like New York and DC are very similar in that respect. We have a lot of um moms that are advanced maternal age. Um, like my my average pregnant client is probably 38. Um and so and I very much felt this myself where I was like, I've been able to control everything in my life up until this point, and then all of a sudden you can't. And for me, it was the added like, oh, and this is your day job, and you should be able to prevent all things, fix all things. Oh, yeah. Well, well, that just yeah, no, can't even imagine. Yeah, but and and and we had a loss in between too. So there then there's those questions of, and it was late too, it was like 13, 14 weeks. We had started to tell people it was like then, yeah, and then you know what that fear is. And I was I I think I was more nervous with our daughter because you're like, you know, you can't control this stuff, but at the same time, you just like, you know, even until she came out, I was like, what's gonna happen? You know, I know, I know. It's it's so tough. How did you kind of approach the your your your second son?

SPEAKER_03 16:54

Yeah, yeah. And I just um and I'm you know, I'm really open about all this. My I so our loss too in the middle, I was actually um like 22 weeks, so it was really far along. Um, and uh I was fortunate to get pregnant very soon after that that loss. Um you know, yeah, I I'm so sorry. Oh, thank you. Yeah, it was obviously, you know, one of if not the most difficult thing we've been through. But um but I was really fortunate to, you know, we had um I had really great support in every sense, you know, um physical, mental, emotional from friends and family. And um and so with my second son, uh the the baby who's 10 months, um in a in a weird way, I was even more I mean don't get me wrong. On one hand, it was like a 10 month or uh, you know, a nine month um it just we were on eggshells the whole time. Um and yeah, um especially and especially until we got to that point for me. I mean, you know, where I had been in the previous pregnancy and you know, point of viability and all that. And um, but and I also was just even more like this is kind of out of my hands. I mean, and so I I walked a lot in that pregnancy and I found a lot of comfort in that. Um, I um I did do I did prenatal Pilates, I did prenatal strength training with like a you know a program that focuses on that. And I just again, it was just like kind of moving in ways that felt good and felt right for me. In between the loss and that pregnancy, I did train for and run a half marathon with my dad. Really? Oh my god. Yeah. And I just I just found for me, like, and I did just write a piece for the Times that I interviewed you for about pre-pregnancy fitness, but I just found that for me going into pregnancy feeling as strong and you know, just as strong as possible, yeah, um, helped me, if not as much mentally as anything else, you know. Yes, yeah. So um, yeah, it was just about like I doing whatever I had to do to be as zen as I could in between the moments of extreme anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

There's a lot to be said about that. More, I think, because more people are talking about loss, yeah, and what you're supposed to do. Um and and the thing is again, we barely have data for pregnancy and postpartum and that kind of stuff. It but very much after our loss, I did not want to run. It did not feel it, it wasn't that space. And so I I went to like a 6:30 a.m. yoga class with a bunch of 65-year-old women that was just safe and quiet and ended up doing that through my pregnancy. But that's kind of what we're coming up with is like yeah, you kind of have to, depending on where you are. Yes, we need to kind of build strength back and understand that you know you're gonna have the hormone flux and and that basic stuff. But I almost think the priority really is, you know, for you to go run a half marathon with your dad, that was probably more for your heart, yes, totally than it was, you know, to heal that to be able to move on. And I I like I'm having more and more people asking about that, and that's the answer that I'm giving, having gone through that. It's like, and it takes years, you know, as you know.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

Um I'm sorry for your loss too. Yeah, it's all it's so hard. Does it matter where you're no?

SPEAKER_00 20:48

It doesn't, it doesn't. I mean, we're oh my gosh, 11 years out, and I still remember the day. Yeah, you still remember all of that, but I'm glad that we're having these conversations. And for you know, as as bad as social media can be for a lot of different things, I do feel that's one thing that we've been able to, you know, people see how often it happens in school. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um so now that you have two, how's that looking? Because you've got one that went out the door to kindergarten, you've got one going down for a nap. Like, and and now that you know all all the all all the boutique options that are out there, like what fits right now? How do you decide what fits for you?

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Um, yeah, I always, and I will say, okay, as somebody who writes about fitness, um, obviously the book, but but presently for the the New York Times, I always feel a little um, you know, I feel yeah, I I I was joking, you know, I get I get a lot of sort of PR requests to invitations, I should say, to go to classes. And I'm like, this is not like being a a food critic, a restaurant critic where you just show up.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

It's like that would be nice though, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_03 22:00

It would. It really would. Um, so but you know, I I do think, and again, I really credit my parents with helping to cultivate this in me, but like I, you know, I try to I've always tried to be really kind to myself and compassionate with myself. Uh as I when I, you know, uh for me, fitness has been cyclical. And when I'm in a period where I'm sort of less active or, you know, um I've continued to do Pilates and that has been amazing. I actually wrote a story about Pilates for the New York Times about a year and a half ago. And the premise was like, is Pilates as good as everyone says? And I had done it a little before then, but I actually had had kind of mixed experiences in the studio. And I I ended up that that story and speaking with masters, you know, convinced me. And I found a local studio that um has really been wonderful. And so that just regaining the strength there, um, this kind of full-body, gentle strength has been great mentally and physically. I had a moment a few weeks ago that I've thought a lot about after because it is sort of like the theme of my book. But my normal instructor was um was was out, and so I was with somebody I hadn't worked with before, and I had seen her working with other students, and she she's Russian and she's like really tough. Oh dear. And she was kind of scary. Like I remember at one point we were doing a really challenging position, and I was like, Oh, I hate this one. She's like, Why? I was like, it's really uncomfortable. She's like, it's not supposed to be comfortable. But anyway, at some point, like toward the end, she was like, No, you're you're really strong. And I was like, and it it was just like a kind of offhand thing, you know, like you know, and it, but it I was like, that is why these spaces can be so powerful. Yeah, like to have somebody just tell you that, you know, is when you're feeling overwhelmed or you know, when you're unsure you're recovered, it's like it can be really meaningful.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

So yeah, yeah. I think that's important. And you do talk about that a little bit towards the end of the book. You talk about kind of the value of community, yes. Um, and sharing exercise space and movement historically throughout like existence is something that's kind of primal to us, really.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

Absolutely, yeah. And there's all these ways in which we've we've evolved that you know, that we're rewarded for moving with other people. Uh, when we move in sync, you know, we there's neurochemicals that are released that help us feel bonded and get a greater sense of hope. And um, so that's that's I mean, and you can find that either in a class or even just you know, uh running, running a road race. So yeah, um, I try to seek that those opportunities out too. But other than other than Pilates, I've been s doing a little bit of running. I ran a 10K over the summer and um and a ton of walking because that's like in New York City, especially New York. That's what it's New York and it's yeah, exactly. And but my goal, you know, I definitely I miss running. And I I'm a um I since I trained for the marathon, I've I've done the Galloway method, which is run walk. Yeah, and I which I mean I now swear by and uh it's been great at preventing injuries, so it it also provides a gentle way to kind of ease back in. So that I'm hoping that's my goal for the next year, really, to to get back into a running regular, uh regular running routine just because makes me happy.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yeah, no, I I I feel like I got back after my first, because you have one kid at that point, but like with two, it does. It kind of, and I think we have a little bit more, I don't know, forgiveness for ourselves or a little more patience with ourselves where we don't feel like we're trying to prove anything. Yeah, and we get back, you know, when it feels okay. I mean, I think I probably started to run after our youngest, I don't, I honestly I couldn't even tell you, maybe a couple years. And then I think when she was three or four, I was running some, but it wasn't feeling good. And that's when I started doing CrossFit. I was like, ooh, we're gonna have to mash this up, which um when you have two small children walking into a CrossFit gym is a little scary.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

But but now, like, and what we know about load and you know, now kind of staring down menopause and all that stuff. I'm like, yeah, I'm glad I started now. So any any chance I get new moms, I'm like, hey, so lifting a barbell is really good for a lot of reasons, and your performance is gonna get better with learning. We're we're getting a ahead on the you know, the bone loss issue, all that stuff. So anybody with that, I'm like, okay, just be looking ahead community first, get around those other moms, then get back to the stuff you love, and then somewhere around the line, we're we're we're gonna get under a barbell.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

I and it's so funny. I I have been craving that I've been wanting to lift heavy things that are other than my children.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

It makes you feel pretty badass. I'll be honest with you. Like it feels pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 27:15

Yeah, it's right here.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

I'm I'm I'm really lucky when I started. Um, there's a a gym literally between my office and our house. And so I I went there and um did a class that was a lot of moms after we dropped our kids off from school for a long time. So it was a very supportive community. The moms are freaking strong, like super strong. Um, switch gyms. I go to a gym now at 5 30 a.m. But there's a couple other moms that were around the same age. And yeah, there's some 20-somethings sprinkled in, but I'm like, we're still getting at it, you know. And it just, it just it feels good to be done with it too. Like I'm workouts already done, I can get on with my day.

SPEAKER_03 27:57

Yeah, you're yeah, you're really inspiring me.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

I uh and I really it wasn't early though, like it was when they were at school and you know, they would sleep and not get out of bed and I didn't have to beat them and all that stuff. So yeah, no, it's coming, it's coming.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

I mean, I again I always say, like, I you won't meet a truer believer in in movement and in all of these things, which I write about regularly, and I get to, you know, have the I'm so lucky I get to interview sort of the leading experts about these things, you know. So it's just yeah, I mean, I it's it is no easier for me, uh despite everything I now know, to find that time.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

It is it is so with with all the people you got to talk to, like what story kind of inspired you the most if you could pick one?

SPEAKER_03 28:44

Oh my gosh, well uh I I I mean this sounds this is cheesy, but I've really been inspired by almost every story that I've that I've had the opportunity to report for well. I mean, I've written two profiles in the past year um that were so much fun to report and write. And one one was about uh Martinez Evans, who's the founder of the it's called the Slow AF Run Club. I love that. Yeah, yeah. I followed him on Instagram. Yeah, he's amazing. And I had I had first interviewed him actually like a year before when I wrote about my own experience coming to terms with being a back of the pack runner.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:27

And then he had a new book coming out, and so I got to, you know, I there was I knew there was so much more to his story. He just has such a such a fascinating story and is inspiring so many people. Um, you know, and he took what was he he's a a back-of-the-packer and he had been running the New York City Marathon, I think 2018, and some jerk, you know, shouted out to him, like, You're slow af, buddy, go home. But they were it was more uh profane than that. And he was like, you know, I'm gonna own that. And so the next race, he showed up with a shirt that said slow AF with the turtle, and like a movement was born. And so I loved writing that story. And for me as a back-of-the-pack runner, so much of like what he stands for and what he wrote about in the book, which is fantastic, also called the uh Sloya Front Club, was already very familiar, you know, and the idea that like you just sort of you could find joy in in being a back-of-the-packer, and um, but I do I was so I was so heartened by the response to his story. I you know, I also like the New York Times ran it on the front page on a Saturday, which that was super cool, by the way. Congrats! Thank you, career first, never, you know, that like I I was really blown away by that. But you know, I just think we're this is not to go off on a tangent, but it's like life is really hard right now and a lot, you know, the world is really difficult right now. Um just a little, just a little, and so I have found that when I write in stories that are, you know, that are inspiring or that are about inclusivity and about self-acceptance, like there, I do think people are hungry for those stories, you know, when they're genuine and it's not like you know, just smile more. So um, yeah, so that it was people really connected with his story and where they were like, I gave up running and this is, you know, I feel like I might try it again. And it's talk about community. I mean, just to know you're you're not alone and however you move, I think is really can be really um motivating and really powerful.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Yeah, that's a I think a message that a lot of newer moms also resonate with because you know, socially, you know, you're supposed to get back into your pre-pregnancy genes, you're supposed to be this happy perky mom, you know, Lulu and yoga and and you know, happy baby. And it's just not that. That's just not real. And for running, too, like I get so many moms that come in and apologize. That's the first thing out of their mouths. They're like, I'm sorry, I'm not a runner, I I live, but I'm not a crossfirm. I'm like, please don't apologize. The fact that you want to move, period, like that's enough for me. Like, please do not apologize. Like, we're wherever we are, like, I'm not very fast either. Like, yeah, yeah, it's not how my genetics worked out, yeah. So I again, like, I I think there's so much value in finding other people that are like, hey, I'm happy showing up. And the fact that I'm out there, and again, that community is so incredibly important, especially from an isolating time when you're up at, you know, oh dark 30. I don't know how many times you got up last night to feed, but well, he's sleeping through the night, but yay!

SPEAKER_03 32:54

But also our five-year-old has started coming into our bed, and so yeah. So it's I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Yeah, sleep is just uh it's it's always something like that's it's the same thing with our kids. They joke around it. Like, if one is good, the other one's just a total jerk, and then they swap. Yeah, and then you get them to sleep, and now I'm like on this weird, like might be starting into menopause period. I don't know, going to the doctor today, figure that one out. And you wake up like 70 times a night for no good reason, and like, well, this like there's gotta be a biological reason for this, and I don't know what it is yet. I know it's something, it's always something it's not fair, yeah. Yeah, so if we go back and look at kind of the stories from the book, like what do you think has impacted women the most for our generation? Like, what what's gotten us to exercise? What's coming up for our sons and daughters? What do you think is is is kind of how we got there and then what's next for them?

SPEAKER_03 33:55

Yeah, I mean, so on one hand, I think, you know, we've we've obviously benefited from um our generation things like the passage of Title IX, and just this uh, you know, I go into great detail in the book, but this huge cultural shift around women's bodies and what women are capable of from a physical and athletic standpoint. You know, I write in the book about how the there wasn't an Olympic marathon for women until 1984, because there were still fears about, you know, running, making your uterus fall out. And um, and so, you know, that it is now women's sports, women's athletics are are, well, there's still a long way to go, you know, they're pretty entrenched into our culture. Um, I also think, you know, partly thanks to social media, while social media is such a minefield, on, you know, um, there has been this real like reckoning, questioning of all of these messages that we received growing up. I mean, I think maybe it's also partly my like social media community bubble that I've cultivated. But when you look back at there's I I follow a lot of people who kind of like um call out messaging from you know, teen and women's magazines and things that we thought were totally normal in the 90s, even like pop icons like Britney Spears, whose bodies are you know, pop culture just felt free to like totally tear down and dissect. And and so there's more awareness about you know why we feel the way we do about our bodies. Um, but I think that the biggest shift is and part of this has is comes from us aging into ourselves and but also the culture is a recognition that movement uh can be so great for mental health. And I'm seeing that even in um the like exercise science, you know, there's sort of this burgeoning field of uh mental health, exercise science, look looking at exactly how it can benefit, you know, with things like recovering from trauma. And um I wrote about actually these trauma-informed weightlifting programs last year. That was a really inspiring piece for me.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

Um, and so I think for our kids, um, and I think you know, it might be slightly different for depending on, you know, your gender, but um I think I just think there's so much more recognition that movement can be um, it doesn't have to be, shouldn't be punitive, and can just be, you know, a really great support for for our mental and emotional well-being. And and so we need to prioritize it for that reason. And I mean, I still, I'll just say, like, I still, and this gets to um so I do think fitness and movement is actually still a privilege, you know. There's very much so so much so. I mean, there's huge issues with access, and there are great organizations working to close those gaps, but um, but but I think recognizing, so I was going to say I sometimes even feel like with doing Pilates, which I recognize is a is a luxury for me and a privilege, and um I almost feel apologetic sometimes that like that I'm carving out that time just to focus on myself and my body and my strength. Um, but I think that the more recognition that we're gaining as a culture, that uh it's not just about like it's not about like, oh, I'm working on my body to fit into my genes, or you know, there are these much more profound gains to be had. We're moving toward a place where um movement can be, you know, is more accessible to more people.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Yeah, it it it needs to be a right, quite honest.

SPEAKER_03 38:05

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

And and I think that's something I did not appreciate growing up. And a lot of things, I mean, over the years, you start to realize like, hey, this really is a privilege, but you know, having a safe place to walk, having a safe place to go to a gym and not feel like you're going to be ogled or you know, feel like you you feel like you're safe there. And that I I agree, we we still have a long ways to go as far as you know, having safe movement and safe spaces to move be a right and not a privilege, a hundred percent. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

For you being a a boy mom right now, do you feel strongly about or like how do you feel as far as how you want to expose them to um you know how other genders move? Because you you I do notice that I've had more conversations with with moms lately that and it's interesting because they're feminist moms and they have boys, and they're like, Oh, well, we're not gonna do this because they're girls involved. We want them to do just boy stuff. And I'm like, well, that's kind of not the real world either. So like how so it's uh for you, like any thoughts. I know you got a you got a long time to think about this, but like how how to make sure that you know that they understand kind of this whole uh other gender side of things.

SPEAKER_03 39:26

Well, it's really funny. I think about so there's this little there's this program in our neighborhood called Kids in Sports. It's like a really popular program for just little kids, you know, multi-sport. And I signed my older son up when he was maybe two or something. And I I should say my husband is um is is not a sports guy. He's he he he's from LA and he he's a journalist as well. He writes about one of the things he writes about his culture, and like I always say, like movies are his sport, you know. And so we sh we sh I signed my son up and we show up, and I I was feeling like, oh my god, this feels so like stereotypical. I'm bringing my son to like a sports class, you know. And we show up, and jokes on me, he was the only boy in the class. Um so wow. After that, there was more, you know, like in subsequent sessions and stuff, it was it was more 50-50, but um, but I was like that, I was just laughing at myself that at my even my own assumptions that this would be a boy-dominated space. I mean, especially given everything I know. So well, I guess in addition to just, you know, we try to be very um, you know, we're we're not like we're we're trying not to enforce very strict gender norms in our house. And um, but um, but I think the biggest thing is just seeing me move, you know. And I am more like I he has really he's starting to have memories of me running races, and especially because I run them with, you know, his grandpa. And so he's they've come out and cheered for me. And um that I think those memories, those are gonna, I hope those will be some core memories. And so, and actually the fact that I am more involved in that kind of, you know, in like athletics than his dad. Um, I think that'll be a healthy, you know, like a just a healthy paradigm, I think, for him to be growing up with and taking into his adult life.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

That's super cool. And I I hear that from a lot of moms, um, even first time around, new kid, they want to be an example. Um, I've my oldest, not as I we we have a rule that you have to do some sort of movement related activity each quarter. And so he he abides by that, but by no means is he a my sporty guy, whereas my daughter is a little bit more. And um, but this was the first year I just did Army 10 Miler. And fortunately, my husband got the kids down to be able to cheer and that sort of thing, and she ran with me for a little bit. And afterwards, she's like, Can I do this with you next year? And I was like, I've never tried to push her. I was like, that would be cool. 10's a little long, let's start with a 5k.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

Baby steps, we don't need to blow you out at 10. Yeah, totally. That's so amazing though. No, but it's it's cool, it's cool to see. Um, and and when I look back, um, oh, I just got emotional. I was reading some of the stuff I had written down. Um, my parents were always at all of my sports stuff, my cross country, and I was the slowest and God love them for just like not being totally embarrassed. Um, at some point I realized I had some speed, which was good, but I always would write, and dad's gonna be there, yeah, because my mom was always there, and for my dad to be able to get off. And so, um, and he had one of those whistles that you could hear. So when you were swimming, he or like in the woods or anything, you like your head just turns because you've been trained since you were little. And so that for me, even now, like that's very yeah. My dad's had Parkinson's for over 20 years, so um, he we can't do that stuff together anymore. But yeah, um, to be able to kind of those memories, yeah, yeah, yeah, to be able to show that to the kids too is super cool. So yeah, it's amazing what you oh god, that comes. Whoa, that's the so yeah, that's what we're trying to do for our kids, is it's you know 30 years they cry their faces off on a book.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Yes, I know.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

I hope so. Everybody, we ask these questions at the end of every show. Um, and you're probably reading or listening to a lot for research or whatnot, but like what's a book you're reading or a podcast that you're listening to right now? Oh my gosh. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 43:45

Okay. This because there are so many. I will um okay, so a podcast that had been recommended to me by a million people that I just discovered. I mean, I didn't, I just started listening to. Is Julia Louis Dreyfus's podcast? I believe it's called Wiser Than Me. Um and it's so awesome. It so partly why it was recommended to me was because her first episode was with Jane Fonda, who, you know, okay. And the whole so I think Julia Louis Dreyfus, I think she said she's around 60. And so, but the whole idea is that she the premise is that like older women are these, I mean, obviously obviously we know this, but are these great sources of wisdom and our culture doesn't always treat them that way. And so she wants to bring on women who are older than her, you know, by 10 to you know, however many 10, 20 years, and kind of like hear their life lessons. And so she had she talked to yeah, um Jane Fonda and Ruth Reichel, the the food critic, um, uh, and Isabella Yende, and just and she's just I hadn't she's amazing. Like, I really I'm just so enjoying these conversations. Um yeah, that's sort of like my taking a break from the world and the news and and everything.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

You need that right now. I think we all need a little bit of a break from levity right now. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. All right, next one. Um, favorite activity since becoming a mom.

SPEAKER_02 45:25

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 45:26

And it doesn't have to do with your kids if you don't want it to.

SPEAKER_03 45:29

You know, I mean, it's when you asked that, it was like I was immediately, I did think about the kid focused activities that I do that I didn't do before coming up becoming a mom. And I have to say, and I mean, this might be, I don't know, I don't know if this is unusual or not, but like I I actually love, I love taking my son, my older son, to all of the birthday parties. I mean, I just I know that it's like probably on a Chuck E. Cheese, have you? I wish, I wish I no, I had like half of my birthday parties growing up at Chuck E. Cheese. So the yeah, we anyway, I grew up in Atlanta, I should say. So it was a very suburban childhood. But um I mean, uh sometimes they're hellish, don't get me wrong. They're and and sometimes my son also like refuses to participate. And I've had moments where I've I've had some comically bad moments at birthday parties, but um there is just I found like that's how I've gotten to know the parents, and like you end up seeing each other every weekend, and it's really nice. And I don't know, it's just it's been a you know, especially when you have kids just to have like an activity. It's been it's been I've I've enjoyed reconnecting with my inner child through these birthday parties.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

So cool. Well, that's gonna switch to be sports eventually because there's not as many birthdays. Yes, yes. Then the problem becomes you like the parents, but the kids don't like each other anymore and they're not friends. You want to still be friends with the parents?

SPEAKER_03 47:03

I know, I know. I've yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

Here's the foreshadowing for you. You you got time to work it out.

SPEAKER_03 47:09

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Yeah, you gotta totally live in the moment, don't necessarily eat the cake every weekend or the pizza.

SPEAKER_03 47:16

That's that's you know, I'm yeah, I'm getting I finally I finally got to that place. It is that part is challenging, but yeah, um, I know, and I feel like I probably just lost a lot of listeners with that.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

But don't get me wrong, there's tons of stuff I do for myself and you know, and work that, but yeah, it's nice to be around other people and you know, experience your kid having fun and meet some nice parents, but don't eat the cake.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

All right, one piece of advice for new moms.

SPEAKER_03 47:49

Be kind to yourself. I mean, I'll you know, I'll pass along something that I I remember from my my baby shower before my first son was born, that um was like the resounding piece of advice given to me, which was that it's all a phase. And you know, especially now that I'm in it with my second, um I just like with my first son, everything everything felt so amplified, you know. And I I was I was still, I was kind of like with that pregnancy, the first pregnancy, I was so worried about like following the rules and you know, with sleep and solids and milestones and like and now I, you know, and I know this is like classic second third child thing, but like I've just we're so much more relaxed, and it's like he'll figure it out. It's also like my old I see that you know, the my older son was this amazing sleeper, and now you know, like I said, he comes into our bed every night. It's like you can do everything by the book, and still ultimately it's not really fully in your control.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

Yes, and I yeah, yeah, and and I feel like that's like the biggest karma lesson for those of us that controlled things for our entire lives. It's like actually controlled this. Oh, wait, you can't.

SPEAKER_03 49:03

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So that's awesome. Well, yeah, it's all a phase, and just be kind to yourself as you're as you're riding these waves, they will pass.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

I I totally agree. All right, last one. And what does it mean to you to be an active mom in postpartum?

SPEAKER_03 49:22

Yeah, it means um, I mean, practically speaking, it means doing a ton of walking, always wearing comfortable shoes. And I've like, I anytime we have an outing, I'm wearing basically athleisure. Um uh reconnecting with a feeling of strength and just feeling, you know, uh, I'm really grateful for the ways that I'm able to be active and caring for my children, um, you know, lifting them, being on the floor with them, and and uh so it also means seeking out ways so that you feel strong enough and good enough and injury free enough to be able to um actively parent if that's something you want you want to do.

SPEAKER_00 50:08

Yeah, and and that's gonna I I always tell people I'm like, look, it's gonna get more active, you're not gonna realize it. But especially once they start doing practices and you, you know, all that stuff. It it it it levels up. Yeah, yeah. Built in, built-in workouts, yeah. No, last last week I think we were we were emailing and I was on a field trip with 72 fifth graders. It was supposed to be overnight camping, it was 28 degrees, so we slept in an animal lab with snakes, and I slept next to a box turtle, that's my first time, on the floor, and so sleeping on the floor, and then the middle night had to take fifth graders out to go to the bathroom. So you're like walking over like bodies and then carting stuff, and so I'm like, that's what you're training for, is so you don't have to get up and pee yourself in the middle of the night 70 times, and it doesn't kill you to sleep on the floor with a box turtle.

SPEAKER_03 51:02

So I'm impressed that you slept at all.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

So I am too. I went in with really low expectations, yeah. That's the key, is like, oh, it wasn't so bad after all. Awesome. All right, so if you don't want to read about box turtles, but you do want to read about um fitness and um the history of how women explored exercise, you're gonna want to catch this book. I know we had Christine Yu on earlier this year. This, I think you want to read this one first. Um, so it's let's let's get physical, how women discovered exercise and reshape the world. And Daniel, you've been such a huge advocate for speaking to women's stories and getting some of our information for postpartum out there. And I just want to thank you so much for using your megaphone um to get good vetted information out and just keep doing it. We appreciate you.

SPEAKER_03 51:53

Thank you. Thank you for the work you do as well. I appreciate you. Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

Thanks for being on the show.

SPEAKER_03 51:58

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 51:59

Did you enjoy the podcast? If so, leave us a five-star review on iTunes and tell a friend to do the same. Are you a postpartum mom or postpartum pro wanting to know more about getting back to running after babies? Check out all my free goodies on carrypaxana.com. This podcast represents the opinions of Dr. CaryPixana and her guests to the show. The content is not particular medical advice, and it's for educated. Always consult your healthcare professional for any medical questions.