Native Women Running: Representation, Safety & Motherhood — with VERNA VOLKER

Today, I speak with Verna Volker, founder of Native Women Running, a source of visibility, inspiration and community of native women runners on and off the reservation/reserve. She is from the Navajo Nation but lives in Minneapolis, MN. Married with four kids, she began her running journey in 2009, and went from a newbie runner to an ultra runner, 94 miles being her longest so far, with plans to run a 100 miler in January 2025!

We talk about:

-finding running after a lifetime of athletics

-running after having kids

-common themes in Native Women Running

-spiritual aspect to running

-developing leadership

-expanding representation

-education and outreach

Time Stamps

1:00 Introduction

2:16 finding running

8:47 starting Native Women Running 

14:21 safety in running

16:20 expanding representation

22:58 representation at major races

26:17 successes in Native Women Running

31:20 working with race organizers

37:26 experience working in Europe

42:08 practicing self-care

46:57 hopes for the future

48:50 rapid fire questions

CONNECT WITH CARRIE

IG: https://www.instagram.com/carriepagliano/

IG: https://www.instagram.com/native_women_running/

Website: https://carriepagliano.com

CONNECT WITH VERNA

IG: https://www.instagram.com/hozhorunner4/

IG: https://www.instagram.com/native_women_running/

Website: www.nativewomenrunning.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Let's start the show. All right. I found our next guest diving through Instagram and I was so inspired by her uh post. And the post was this it's like, what's a runner? A 49-year-old mom of four, a marathon or ultra-marathon, or menopausal body, healing and creating space for our native sisters, a runner is who you are. And there were so many things that just brought me joy from that. And um, so I reached out to Verna and she agreed to come on the podcast to talk about native women running and her experience as um a native woman and mom. Um so thanks so much, Verna, for coming on the Active Mom podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Yes, thank you. Thank you for um inviting me. Um so yes, my name is uh Verna Volker. Um I am from the Navajo Nation. And one of the things that I always do is I introduce myself in my language. Um, I'm gonna go to the houseani dashish check. I'm born of the Bitter Water Mud people, also the um uh Tango people and the water flows together. I'm from the Navajo Nation. I grew up in northern Arizona, northern New Mexico, and I've been living in Minneapolis for about 15 years, and I'm a mom of four, ranging from the ages of almost 21 to 11. So I'm not quite an empty nester yet. And I've been married to my husband for 24 years.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

Oh my goodness. That's a mouthful. And before we hopped on um and press record, she was telling me her schedule um for fitting and date night between pickup and drop off. And I so relate to that right now. Right, you gotta make it work. You do. You definitely have to make it work. All right, let's talk a little bit about running. Have you always um had running in your life, or was that something that that came later on?

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Well, I was always an athlete. Like one of the sports that I excelled in was the basketball. And I remember running uh because I I think I started playing it when I was five, but throughout my life, I never uh I never liked the part of conditioning of like running laps and you know running up and down the court was just something that never appealed to me. I'd rather do like the shooting and the dribbling. And so I was always an athlete, but I actually didn't grow up like a lot of native families, a lot of them have generations of runners in their families or they're just very gifted. I I always say that I I uh I started later in life. I started in my mid-30s with uh three little boys at the time, and that's when I started running. And so since then, since 2009, um, I've realized what my body can do, and that's been uh pretty amazing as a mother who's aging and having just a busy life. So and I just remember my kids were so small when I started, and now they're just kind of like, okay, you're gonna go run. It's like no big deal. They're so used to it now. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

Oh my goodness. I I think just having three boys, period, is a reason to run. Like you kind of have to, anyway. It's sort of a given at that point. Um was that kind of the motivation, or was it just I need to find something for myself? What was it that kind of spawned that interest?

SPEAKER_01 3:43

It was a pretty crazy life. Um, like when my husband and I we lived in Nebraska, and then we moved when our youngest boy was two weeks old. Oh my goodness. Moved um during the housing, you know, uh crisis in 2008. Our house wasn't selling, but we had to move up here. And um, I had a toddler preschool and a newborn. And we moved up here in one of the coldest winters in Minnesota, and we lived in my sister-in-law's basement.

SPEAKER_03 4:13

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Out of I think four months until our house sold, and we finally found a house in March of 2009. So I think that was kind of like um a lot of that was on me trying to care for everybody, which is normal as a mom. But that was sometimes I look back and like, how did I do that? Because we were selling our house, and when you're moving, you're like packing, and I was pregnant, and then we have this little guy. Um, and so I think that time when I realized like I really need to do something for myself to get me in better shape and healthier. And so I just noticed moving here that people were very active here in Minneapolis. And so I saw people running. And so my sister was in town, and we ran like around this little lake, and she said, You should start doing this. And so I started doing it, and I just started learning about running. I wasn't, you know, running is easy in ways where, like, oh, you just go out and you run, but there's so much more to it that I didn't know like watch, pace, uh intervals, all that was new to me. So I had to like learn how to to to I learned that on my own. So yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

For you, like remembering growing up, did you have um anybody to kind of emulate as a kid who was a runner and a woman? No. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

I did yeah, I didn't have anyone. Um, none of my family members were like like my sisters were athletic, but there was no one that was like even like mainstream media, I don't remember seeing something of a native runner. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Yeah, I think even um, I mean, I'm trying to think. I think you're just a little bit older than I am, but like my mom didn't start working out until I was in high school or things like that. I think socially that just wasn't an example that we necessarily had. Um, for you, did did you have any feelings about kind of doing it after having three kids, or it just didn't even matter at that point?

SPEAKER_01 6:16

I think it didn't really matter. It was um, I think it was kind of like my alone time that I had to just go away. I mean, like my boys were their little boys, they're like chaos, they were like chaotic. I mean, but now it's funny how that has turned around because the boys are so chill now. They are so chill. It's like all I have to do is feed them, they play their games, they say what they need to, and it's just like night and day from when they were little, when they used to run off from me. So now it's it's such a change. So yeah, I think that's just how you know, yeah, that's how it went.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

Now, some of them are runners now.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Yes, my oldest is a runner and he runs just kind of um on his own, um, which was really neat to see uh during actually he started he did some cross country, but then he started running during the pandemic and just more mental health, and so he's he started that up again in college, and then my second one is not a runner, and um but my third one, my youngest boy is so he is the first one in our family that has really like done the cross country and now he's in track, and uh so and my younger daughter, she's not a runner, but I always tell them that mom started later in life, and that's okay if you don't run right away, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

Yeah, do you guys pick up tips from each other as far as uh you know what your kids are training and what you're doing?

SPEAKER_01 7:42

No, you know, it's kind of new to me, like like track. I just went to the track, he had a track meet, uh track and feel, and I mean I was new to that because I was like, when do you go? When what are we doing? Um, and he's like, I stay here, I'm I'm gonna run now. You know, like uh he doesn't give me much details, but it's like all it's also both to both of us, it's new to be in that space. And so, but yeah, he's really good about just I think we encourage each other. Um, and he's always like, Mom, you did good, you know, and um and he runs around and I'm always impressed how well he's doing and uh and how well he eats and stuff. And so it's been really fun.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

I was gonna say with with three boys and a girl, I can't imagine what that kitchen table looks like.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Yeah, it's it's crazy, it's crazy. And so um then, but yeah, I'm just I'm grateful that they are you know just trying to stay healthy and that he's he's the one that's kind of taking that on. So yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

For you, you started running how long before you decided to start native women running?

SPEAKER_01 8:50

So I started running in 2009, and then I ran my first half marathon, and that's when it kind of the bug started. And when I started running in that journey, I was doing research on why I wasn't I seeing native runners in that space, and so there was very like far a few stories. And then as social media became kind of part of running, I was just looking for people that look like me and being at races and stuff, and so I think 2016 is kind of when I took a big dive in like researching and um and I had Native women who were following me, and I was seeing so many that were like accomplished runners and those who are beginning. And um I then decided to start an Instagram account in 2018, so like nine, what nine years later, um, and I simply asked people to hey, if I started this account, would you follow it? Yeah, and people were like, Oh yeah. And I just basically have just shared stories of Native women and shared their journey. Um, and so it's grown organically, and I've had no advertisements. I think people just found that this is the space they want, and um, and I think they see themselves in it, and so yeah, it it took a while, and so I don't think we've really dived into anything until like uh 20 2021 is when the idea of creating teams around race events became about, and so um so yeah, that's kind of how it started. It it took a while, um, but now it's kind of uh blowing up where I'm just trying to keep up.

SPEAKER_03 10:35

Yeah, yeah. With this, with the stories that are shared with you, what are some common themes that you think are important for other people to hear?

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Oh, yeah, there's a lot. So native women, um, I feel like there's like this uh like sisterhood of like being native women, uh, that we all have this shared story of where we came from, and some who have been reconnecting, some who um probably didn't grow up on a reservation, but some of us who have, and just uh we all share the story of coming from families of uh strong Native women and strong families, and also a lot of the things that we've dealt with as growing up, with like poverty or alcoholism, uh, those kind of things. Uh, I think we kind of understand each other in those ways. Um, a lot of the women, too, a lot of us uh deal with loss and trauma. And so a lot of our women will run in honor of someone they love. And I think that's kind of uh I as a leader have been very open about sharing my story of loss and of trauma and how I like run in honor of my parents and my three siblings. I think that really resonates down to a lot of the women, so a lot of them will open up to me of like why they're why they're running and creating that space uh for them. Because running, there's excuse me, running is a physical sport, and there's a lot of natives who are very competitive, but I feel like it's really has shown a spiritual side of like running has been our healing. We say running is our prayer and running is our medicine, and I think that really uh is true for us. That's how we connect in ways, and I think that's been really awesome. And I think for me, I really try my best to connect with Native women on just a personal level, and I think that helps. And so I feel like I've met so many Native women, and that's kind of been my healing as a person who had so much loss. So native woman running, though it's really busy and crazy, it's kind of been also healing for me in those ways.

SPEAKER_03 12:57

Yeah, for you you finding people to connect to as well. Absolutely. Do you find that um you know taking up space in you know marathons and ultra marathons that because you have that all that time that you are running, that that's kind of unique to this as well, um, with kind of navigating trauma and so on?

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Yeah, I think so. Um, I think because I in 2018 I started running ultras, you know, like 50Ks and the year out by yourself, you know, in times in those moments where you're all by yourself alone. Not just for like a few hours, but like I mean, I think my longest race was 33 hours, and oh my gosh. I was I was alone, but I was alone, and so then that's when you have to really uh your thoughts really have to turn to your purpose of running and imagining or just thinking about your loved ones. And I think that helps. I think it's really it's really healing, and I think just being on on the land and nature is also very healing because that's where a majority of our women they run outside.

SPEAKER_03 14:03

Yeah, you've had a couple posts kind of speaking to safety. Um and I know that's a concern probably uh across the board in in Ultra, but more unique um to you. What what kind of um thoughts do you have or or things that you share amongst your sisters?

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Yes, so you know, missing and murdered indigenous women is you know uh a movement of that we're bringing awareness to because a lot of our women go missing and murdered. Uh, they always one of the studies is Native women are 10 times more likely to go missing or murdered. And so we bring as an organization, we bring that to the forefront. Like, you know, we have a uh missing and murdered indigenous uh women or relatives, we say, uh virtual event that we started about four years, five years ago, four years ago to bring awareness to that. So I kind of spin it in a way where I also focus on the safety part of that. And throughout the year, like we all have stories of a lot of our women, they're well, you know, they're like in spaces where it's like very isolated, where the nearest police is like what, two hours, three hours away. And so we have a partnership with GoGuard that does a lot of the safety tools, like they have a ring that's serrated. Um, and then I also just share like safety, like things I experienced, uh being on the trails by myself or being followed, ways that I go and leave, like letting my husband know what I'm wearing, where I'm going, what time I'll come home. Um, also just being always aware of my surroundings, um, and going to places where never posting my location, things like that, I think has been helpful. Uh, and it's been really interesting how women also share what they do. It's been really helpful. If I make a post, someone will uh write in the comment section what they do to keep safe. And so those are some of the things.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

Yeah, I think that's all that stuff is so important to share because we we don't want to um think that we're the only one that that navigates those issues for sure. Right. So yeah. Um tell us a little bit about I it seems like a couple of years ago, um I think there was a lot more attention paid to um just uh finding people who had less representation. Um obviously you got the attention of Hoka um and things like that. Tell us a little bit about kind of how how you experienced that time period.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Well, you know, 2020 was the year where there's a lot of like being in Minneapolis, we saw what happened. We were uh around when um uh when George Floyd was murdered. And so we were in the city. I think that that's less than two miles from my home.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

And so when you see that and when you experience um everything that goes around and the curfew and so much chaos, uh I just remember um how many times people would mention or people didn't even have a care of like of like what was the whole issue? What why are people upset? You know, and granted, people are ignorant and you know, racism still exists, but you know, when you think about that whole thing, it it also crinkles down to like native people of um you know how important they are. And so during that time, brands were making statements about you know, we're gonna stand with uh black indigenous people of color. I mean, I saw the posts, like everyone was saying that they were going to, and I've seen now who have, who's kind of like they're doing nothing. And so during that time, uh Hoka uh I became a Hoka Global Ambassador, and then during that time, it was like I became friends with um Alison Dezere because we her her and I were the one of the founding members of running diversity. And so during that time, I remember remember being on a call with Allison, you know, talking about these things, and now it's kind of cool to see that you know running diversity still exists and it's going well. But uh, but her and having her as a friend just showed me more of what um inclusion is and not just like diversity. How are we coming to the table? And in these past years, I really have seen who has been good allies and who hasn't, and who has tried to harm me, um, and who's tried to who publicly shame me. People who say they were gonna be there, it's like this betrayal. And um, just because they weren't accountable, uh, me calling them out um and calling them out privately and not publicly, and them calling me out publicly just really has since then really has opened my eyes to that this work is wonderful, but at the same time, there's these things that have scarred me that have kept my guard up. Um, and that's why I'm very careful now who I align with regarding brands and who really authentically cares or wants to build a relationship with native on running. Because at the end of the day, uh, you know, the specific, you know, organization person can go and live their life. Nothing will change for them. But I have had to deal with the you know the effects of that, his decision, their decision on certain things, and it's divided our community um because people sided with this person instead of me. And I it's amazing how that can happen where people were well intentions, good intentions, you thought, but then it's like nope. And I saw it, I saw the red flags, and I'm like, okay, I can't be, I had to be the one to say I'm gonna protect native woman running, and I'm gonna protect myself. And so I feel like 2020, there was all these statements, and I feel like it's been kind of it's okay now, but people have forgotten, and I just work and so it's really exhausting at some points where like I'm doing native woman running, but I have to deal with things like this. Being a leader, you know that you have to take a lot and carry a lot, and so I think that's been kind of hard in this work because like I don't want to deal with these things, I just want to do fun stuff all the time. Exactly, exactly. I can't do fun stuff all the time. But I think it's really helped me be a better leader of like, yeah, who's just kind of checking us off, checking us off, like, okay, let's include them. Who is just um, you know, it's always I'm keeping my guard up. And and one of the brands that I work with is a naked sports innovation and their the hydration pack. And I it's owned by two white guys out in Canada, and I had a meeting with them, and uh they I'm one of their ambassadors and they support NWR. And one of the things they said to me is Runa, we are in your shadows, you take the lead. Like, and that was like really cool to have someone say that to me because it was always the opposite of like, I'm gonna make the decision. This is my organization, right? I'm gonna dismiss you, I'm gonna gaslight you. That's what I dealt with, and so to see two white guys tell me. Bruno, we're here for you. We support you 100%. We're not we're never going to overstep or you know, you know, talk over you, but you know what is best for your community. And so those are good things that I've learned through this. And I'm happy to get past those hard things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:20

No, it's it's I I can't even imagine. I mean, I I think back to that to me. You know, you had I feel like there was so much hope, but I'm sure on the other side it's it's you know, you have those people that were performative. And it was unchecked that box, and it's almost like a double trauma at that point. Um I mean, it's do you find um I I've been kind of following your journey, kind of working with you know, establishing places and races and things like that, and and um holding space. I'm assuming those those struggles still continue to try and find um spaces for representation at you know major marathons and and races and things like that. Yes, it's it's still um I think it's getting better.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

I feel like New York uh City Marathon, New York Roadrunners really opened the door for us. Um and so they're kind of like the blueprint for other companies to see like this is what they did for us. Um and that's and I've got to know the people from that organization who I see now at Boston who are like Verna, you know, they remember who we are. And that's like um I just met the the the executive director of the Chicago Marathon, um, nice guy. I think his name is Mike Neely, I think. Um, but I saw him at a vet in Boston, and he just as I was leaving, he just reassured me of like, hey Verna, we got you who I mean, like that's like what the a big he's a big deal. Yeah. Like for him to say that, like I met him in January, and then for him to just kind of confirm that at Boston was was good. Um, so I think it's slow. Um, there's times it's hard, and I I know it's exhausting, and I think that's and you know, that's just one thing, but then I deal with also like lateral violence for my own people, you know, and I think just carrying that seems so huge at the time, but it's really small compared to all the people who are supportive and all the good things that are happening. So I always have to remember that.

SPEAKER_03 24:36

Yeah. When when you talk about lateral violence, like is that just people criticizing what you're doing and saying that you know they can do it better and you're doing something wrong, or what it what is that?

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Yeah, you know, and just people who um uh you know, certain things happened um that we we thought were like that people decided that they saw an opportunity apparently to come after me and to harass me and online bully me. And even so, certain people, I know who they are, will make new accounts, send me a message, and then delete their account. And uh they just it's usually always happens when something good is happening. Um we have so much good things, and so our leadership team, we're always like, Oh, do we know that someone's gonna comment? Someone's gonna be mad about something. Um, and you know, it's it's really um kind of like the what's that um illustration, the the crabs in the bucket, yeah, where they they want to just bring you down because they want to do that. It's like you know, I it's been amazing to see both sides of that, and I'm just like I really have tried to balance, yeah, and I think it's hard right now because I still run everything, like social media, and I think I see this, and I'm just like, and so now I'm really trying my best to like I'm becoming a nonprofit, and I'm hopeful my hopes is to hire more people and just let someone take over the social media so I don't have to see those messages.

SPEAKER_03 26:09

Yep, it's it's a double-edged sword for sure. So so let's let's switch to the good stuff then. Tell me about the tell me about the good things that have happened um with NWR this year. Tell me about the successes, tell me what's kind of on the horizon.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Yeah, so you know, we um we started these teams like in 2022, and you know, last year I think I posted that we created over like 30 teams that included over 130 sponsored uh women that have been able to run races. Um, I think in the past year we've been able to like having a partnership with uh New York City Marathon was huge. So taking five Native women to a major race was really exciting.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

I think that was really um, it was just really powerful that they saw us. Um, I think also um the brands, um, there's so many I can't even keep up because I'm always like trying to let my leadership team know that okay, this is what's happening, you know. Um I think being invited to certain like the running event was a huge deal. People who are just extending the expo tables to us because I never realized how much expo tables cost. Um so like that's why I'm going to Brooklyn half this weekend because I didn't realize what a big race that was and how popular. And I thought this is good for NWR. So um, so we have continue to create teams. Um, we are um you know, for me personally, I I'm very I was very humble this year to um be highlighted on like runner's world, um be in uh interviewed by ABC Um News. Uh that was really pretty. That was amazing because in my work I try not to put myself on the forefront as like Native Woman Running. I rarely post anything about me because oftentimes people wonder who's the founder. And uh, or they think that there's a big team of people when there's just like me. Just you, yep. Yeah, and so it's always interesting when people are like, who's the founder? You know, like, you know, and so yeah, and so I so that I think that's really kind of like helped. And so to have these like opportunities have been really uh humbling to me. And I always struggle with imposter like syndrome, like I don't deserve to be here because I'm not a fast runner, I'm not what runner looks like, or but then I'm always reminded that um I deserve to be in that space, I deserve to use my voice in these powerful ways because in my mind I'm like I run my own race, but I'm bringing along Native women in this journey. Yeah, I think that's been really neat. And just being able to get to Boston too with two Native women who ran, giving them the opportunity to be part of a Hoka photo shoot. Um, and then we have a partnership with Lily Trotters that's created uh our sock, you know, for us, giving us the proceeds to that. Um so there's like so many different things, and it's been like overwhelming at times. And um just being recognized has been fun. Um, fun and like wow, lay people see us, and uh it's gonna keep getting better, I think.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

So no, I think the first thing that that drew me to you, you did a post where you were kind of it was like right before the the year changed, and you were like just the joy um of a mom of a couple kids and you you're out running, and it just just the joy was just intoxicating. And I think when you have uh that and a message, those things are just you can't help but be able to spread that, um, which is super cool. Um, you talked about Boston. What was it like being on the Indigenous running panel at the marathon?

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Yeah, it was good. It was good. It was um, you know, I was two years ago I was part of the the 50-year anniversary of women running. So uh two years ago I was able to be part of a panel um there, and uh I thought the next year we would have it in, but last year wasn't we were like they were not even invited. So um, so this year was good that to just be able to talk about my work. Um it's uh and the native people on there and how each of them are doing their own thing. And uh, you know, there's so much history of native runners in Boston, and that really needs to be like those stories need to be shared. And so um being able to just uh share the work of Native Woman Running is something that I don't hesitate to talk about.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

Yeah. So when you're when you're looking at participating with or working with um race planners or things like that, are you looking ahead at um you know, educating about the native history to where that is geographically, um, just to speak to to women runners themselves? Like what what is it that you try and and bring and leave behind when you're working with a race organizer or organizer?

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Yeah, I think for me, I you know, like we work a lot with vacation races that does a lot of the um, you know, big races at like a you know, Mount Rainier. So we know the people there. And uh I think just um uh I think I always make sure to share my gratitude of how much these entries mean to us and how they're now involving our women uh to do the land acknowledgement. You know, they didn't ask us, you know, we said, can we do it? And yeah, and so if any of our native women runners are in that area, they do the land acknowledgement and in that sense create STEM to use their voice, to use their voice and to be leaders in that way. And so I think a lot of them, especially with that organization, we had a race on October, I can't remember like 17th, that it was called the Lake Pell Half Marathon. And during that time, the eclipse was going to go over that area. So vacation races had no idea. I didn't have any idea, but someone mentioned it, and our leadership team said we can't do that race because that you know that's offensive to our to the Navajo people, and like three of us are Navajos, and so I was happy that they said we're not gonna do it. So then I made a post saying out of respect for the Navajo culture, we're not gonna be running this race, and so vacation racists had no idea that this was happening, and they didn't know, so they met with us, and so I think they were able to change the time or tell after the eclipse or something like that, but they really appreciated our insight of like they wouldn't have known unless someone told them, right, you know, and so like in those ways, educating them and you know, with them now we ask them like if you ever need any type of education, because they I think they do like four or five races in that area, and so we always say, if you want to know more, just let us know. But majority of the time we want people to kind of do their own research too, right? But but that was something where they didn't know and they trusted us, and so I think with the with the organizations and the brands that I work with, my goal is always to build like a relationship with them and uh and not just to rush into things. Um, like for example, I'm gonna be going to the Calgary Marathon the end of May, and um the race director invited me there, and so she asked me if I wanted to like you know have a booth and stuff, and um, I'm gonna run the marathon. I said, you know what? I don't want to do any of that. I want to get to know who you are, experience it, yeah. And I think that what that's what matters to me. Um, I know the race directors of like big ultra races who've extended so much things to Native Women Running. I know who they are, and I think that's what really matters is for me and that person or that team to get to know each other because it builds trust and it does take time. Um, but I think that's the goal is to educate, to build authentic partnerships, relationships, um, also letting them know what harms us and what can be potentially um negative on us. You know, I share the story of the the negative impact I had with um a certain organization that I thought was good allies and that I want them to communicate with me. I want I don't want to feel that way again. So I think those things have given me boldness to use my voice in those ways.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

Yeah, no, I I like the relationship building piece because I I do think that, you know, obviously speaking as a white woman, there's a lot of things I don't know, but it's also not onto you to educate me and figure out all the things I don't know. So right, right. I think we were we were talking before we hit record. A friend of mine is half Navajo, and I just we were at a softball game and I just asked her, Oh, did you see the eclipse? And she was able to give me that background that I had no idea about. Right. Um, and she was you know happy to explain it, but like, gosh, I I you know now it made me look at things so many different differently. Um any sense if it's is that unique to the the Navajo people, do you know? Or about the eclipse?

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Yeah, yeah, it is, it is. And you know, I I think if you're really raised like traditionally, it does make sense. Like I had a mixture of like like Christianity. I mean, then there were some ways that we were like the traditional stuff, right? A lot of a lot of some native people have like there's different ceremonies they were able to do growing up, um, that I was not part of, you know, and so and I think it just ranges. Um, and so I also in the last couple of years educated myself on that.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

About, oh, I didn't realize that. And so um, so I think growing up, you know, we grew up in really hard time. Um, you know, I talked about how my father passed when we were really young, um, and then just my mother fighting her own battles. Uh half the time we were just kind of surviving. And I think um we didn't have anyone really guiding us in tradition. Uh and so I think my I'll talk about my older sister, my oldest sister who she's like the matriarch of our family, like she's the one who uh took care of us, and she was trying to work. And you know, when your parents, when your dad passes, you know, she had to hold the family together. And so there's always this like we're kind of learning now of things that we didn't know. And so I think that's and that's I think okay because as native people, some of us didn't grow up on the reservation, or some of us didn't like grow up traditionally, but I think we're learning and we have to have that understanding of each other too.

SPEAKER_03 37:16

Yeah, no, definitely. Looking ahead, you're heading to Berlin shortly. Yes. Um, what unique challenges come with bringing your message and awareness and space going over to Europe?

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Yeah, so uh Germany has uh uh they have they have this like thing where um Karl May is an author, I think in the early 30s, I don't know, wrote this series of books called Winnato, this fictional character um who was a a native guy who who people read um who read these stories, they became very popular in Germany. And so now Germans have not all Germans have this view of native people as like everything that we're against, like characters, like the headdress, Pocahontas. So they have these festivals where these German people dress up as the native people, and so I didn't know this. My coach is from Germany, and my coach, my coach is I met him through Instagram, and he started coaching when I started running Ultra Races, and so I'm gonna actually meet my coach. So yeah, so he um he told me and he warned me of that. He said, you know, we're more progressive like Germans, but there's some Germans who consider this as a hobby, they're called hobbyists, and so they spend like weekends setting up a teepee or having Powell. Yeah, it's it's really hard to like think that that's happening, and so I'm not sure because I'll be right in Berlin where it's like a pot of just like so many cultures, right? Um, and we're gonna meet a few native women there who are stationed over there. So I'm really curious. Yeah, so I have like two of them who are gonna be running with us. Okay, and and I think I'm really curious about uh I think there's this fascination. So we could be looked at as like, wow, you know, we could be like movie stars or fascination with us, and so it's gonna be interesting um how people look at us because I mean I went to Germany, like it's been 21 years, but I remember my husband and I we saw this like native store, and we went in and they had all this like kind of knockoff native people, native, like like what they assume people native people have like tomahawks and dream catchers. And the guy who the owner was just so fascinated with me, like, wow, you're Navajo, and so I think that's one of the challenges. I'm not sure because some Germans really take down, but that some Germans know, like they're not native people are like that because the author of this book, Carl May, he never traveled to North America, so everything that he saw, you know, was from from Hollywood, right? Cowboys and Indians.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

So one of the things though, in America, the Indians were always the bad guys, right? You know, in Germany, it's the opposite. The Indians are the good guys, yeah. So that might be a good thing. You might be put on this pedestal, you don't know. So I think that's one of the challenges. And I think for me too, like I'm gonna be we're thinking of doing a panel because I connected with a an organization out there, and so that we're talking yesterday actually about maybe having a panel. Um, and I'm just gonna have like some presentation things ready to explain our work. I think one of my challenges is like, how do I speak from because in America people know, whereas in German, how do I, you know, talk about representation? Um, and so it should be very interesting, the the response of this. So I but I feel like it's gonna make native women, native women running, uh, it'll expand our work. Um, I'm just really curious because we're gonna be at a big woman's race of 10,000 women. We're gonna we're gonna have an expo table there. That's great. I'm so curious what people are gonna say.

SPEAKER_03 41:29

Okay, oh uh we will stay tuned to your to your social media for short because I I have not but I I don't even know how like you probably have no sense of how it's gonna play out at all.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Yeah. So thankfully we're connecting with with a native guy who lives there, and so he's gonna take us around. And so I think that's helpful. And uh and so that kind of gives me comfort.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

And um, yeah, so we'll see. Oh my goodness. All right, so when when you walk into situations like this and you're you know, maybe you're gonna run in the race, and then you're also representing NWR and and you're having to navigate some of these panels or things like that. How do you hold space for it all? Um, and kind of protect that for yourself?

SPEAKER_01 42:15

Yeah, that's a good question. That's good because there are times when I'm doing all of that at one time at like events. And so now I'm I'm very like um I have to pick and choose what I want to do because sometimes I'll be running a race and having an expo table or speaking at a panel. I can and friends have told me, you cannot do that. That's a lot, yeah. I think like especially like Brooklyn half. I mean, you know, we're not at a point where we're like black girls run where they have different chapters, right? You know, I'm still the main person. You know, I just don't have the funding yet to get that far. And that's one of my goals is to start different chapters. But so Brooklyn thought, oh, you know, I'm sure you have a chapter. No, we don't have a chapter. So that's why I'm going out there. But I think um just focusing on one thing at a time. So I'm trying, you know, like going to Boston. When I ran two years ago, I was part of the women's team, and I had I was running for charity, and so I had to watch for these, I had to kind of be a chaperone for these like youth there. We had three native women running at the time. That was just too much. So it was nice to go to Boston and just be able to be a spectator, right? You know, and just do like a panel. And so I don't realize sometimes when I'm invited to events, these events, I think, oh, I'm gonna be fine. And I end up being so much busier than I think. And so then I come home, I'm just so exhausted because it may be hard to believe, but I'm really an introvert by nature. So I really had to learn how to like also become an extrovert because I have no problem running hours by myself alone. And but it my husband knows because he's like an extrovert. He knows when I come home that I'm just like exhausted. Like I'm just so tired. But um, but I feel like you know, I was a stay-at-home mom for 15 years. I put my career on hold. And so my husband always reminds me, this is your time now to do these things. And so I really pick and choose what I can handle. Um, because you know, June and July are gonna I have to have a little surgery. So I'm like, that's a time where I have to just I can't run for six weeks. I'm gonna be forced to be home, and so that's why I'm trying to fit everything in. So do it now. Yeah, and so I think June is gonna be nice because all the kids will be home. It'll really kind of recharge me to like rest. And so I'm I'm hoping to have certain people do certain things because um I really have to take days off too. Like Wednesdays, oh yeah, you know, could be my day off, or Thursday could be my day off. So um I try to make sure I take care of myself in those ways.

SPEAKER_03 45:02

Yeah. I think I think it's hard when you have something that truly is a labor of love, but also has so much logistics because there really isn't a day off with it. And then you go to events and it's I mean, it was it was really cool to watch you as a spectator at Boston because it did seem very emotional to you. And again, you've got to have some space to process that. And and but you've still got all these other things and and responsibilities to do. And it's like, how do I how do I uphold my my community, but also protect myself and make sure that I'm processing because it's also a very big feeling. Big feelings.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

That's what my my daughter said. She said, I have big feelings today. Right, right, right. Even like today, you know, it's like I have to prepare for things, and we have this virtual run, and you know, I'm in charge of that, you know. I'm my nephew does all my shirts, so I'm communicating with him, and um people are wanting to run for certain things, and I'm like, people are messaging me, and I'm like, and I have a little girl who's has a cold back here, and I'm like, I heard her coughing a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 46:09

I gotta take care of her, you know, and so yeah, but that's mom life too. And I'm like, I I've never seen I I only have two, I quit at two, but I I have patients who you know have four or five kids, and yeah, but just the the ability to multitask and organize and compartmentalize is is your mom skills are paying off in spades here with this.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

I think so. I think so because sometimes I'm like, I am not a businesswoman, I but I think planning and stuff, it really helps me, like because I used to do that a lot when I was, you know, I taught for like five years and I know how to make sure everything's in place, you know get ahead of time, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 46:49

So yeah, those are mom superpowers for sure.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

For sure.

SPEAKER_03 46:55

Yeah. So with looking ahead, kind of you you've got a daughter um looking ahead at what her future holds. Um what what things do you think about? What things do you hope for her?

SPEAKER_01 47:09

Um, you know, I think for her, you know, I just want her to know that she has a voice. That um, you know, she's 11 and she's been able to use her voices, her voice in in different ways. Um, and I think just knowing that she has a purpose. I think those things are important that she comes. I hope she gets better soon. Yeah, you know, I and it's I I I get I get emotional because like um you know, this life was always hard, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

You don't I think there's like forgiveness and understanding with like what I grew up in. Um but I'm changing that story, yeah, you know, and I think that's important to me.

unknown 47:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:59

No, it's it's it's funny how even I I have a son and a daughter, and I I think it it's a little bit different for our our girls.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

Yeah, I think that's important. Yeah, because like she's loved. She's loved, and I think that's what's really important to me. And that if she picks up running someday, great. If not, she's just gonna still be you know wonderful no matter what. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:24

Yeah, and and she sees with you every day how hard you work and and what you're trying to do for your community. Um, and that that's just a gift. That's a gift. Anytime I talk about my daughter, I do the same thing. She's 10, and and I definitely see myself in her lots of times, and it just it hits a little bit different. So yeah, it does. It does. Oh, okay. All right. Um, we're gonna pivot here at the end of every episode. We do ask a couple of questions. Um what's a book you're reading or a podcast that you're listening to right now?

SPEAKER_01 48:58

Uh, let's see. Here the book that I'm reading, um, I've been like reading here and there. It's called like Broken Circle, the Broken Circle. And it's just about my community back home in the 1970s. Um, how two Navajo men were murdered by three white teenagers, and how that kind of brought a social justice movement in the Four Corners area. And I found out in the last like five years that my when that happened, there was different marches and protests. And my father was part of that. You know, my father passed in 1977, but my older siblings, you know, were like 20 years apart. They said they remember marching with dad. And so sometimes I think that is probably why I feel this in me, like it's ingrained in me. Um, because my father stood up for certain things in our community. And that book is because of that book of learning more about that one incident blew up so much of Native people's voices and racism. And um, it's really cool to think it's not cool, but it's cool in a sense that my dad was like that, but I think about we're still kind of sick fighting that same fight, and that's kind of what makes me sad about that book. So that's been a really powerful book that um it's hard to read at times because there's some details of like the death of these Navajo, Navajo men. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:31

That sounds like a very poignant book, though.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 50:34

All right. Um, what's your favorite activity since becoming a mom? Besides running and run and and making nonprofits and all sorts of big things.

SPEAKER_01 50:43

Um I think what's been fun is um uh my my boys uh they're really into thrifting. And I remember when they were young, I used that's how I used to like, you know, we were living on one income. I would you know buy stuff that was like secondhand, and now these teenage boys, that's what they do. Oh, that's a cool. Yeah, so we go and uh you know they know what to find, and it doesn't cost me as much. So that's been fun. And then with the boys, and then with my older son, we him and I love coffee, and uh he's he's been he's a barista. But wow before he left in college, um, we would just go out for coffee. We we go around the city and try different coffee shops, and so I always look forward. He's when he comes home, we we get a cup of coffee and we like to sit there and just favor our coffee. Yeah, and that's been really fun with him. And um, and my daughter, of course, anything I do with her is fun. You know, she's just my daughter. You know how little girls are just gonna do it.

SPEAKER_03 51:49

No, I do, I do.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

The target is a blast.

SPEAKER_03 51:53

No, I'm definitely I I have a much easier time with my my daughter. My son is 13 now, and trying to find those ways to connect with boys. Um, we tend to do better when like we're in a long car ride and I'm driving and he's in the passenger seat. We don't have to look at each other, but we can talk. Yeah. Um, so I will take any other boy tips.

unknown 52:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

I think I think those, you know, when I think about it, like the drive to school with the the boys, you know, I think that's been really precious time of um, and because they'll come back, they'll come back. Like my oldest, he's almost 21 and he loves being home. Now he he appreciates his siblings because his senior year, he was like, I'm out of here. He was never home because he was so busy. But now he's like, Mom, you know, I want to go home. I miss cooking. It really changes. Like he is like, you know, he's he's gonna be here and he's looking forward to that this gratitude that he has now, like, mom and dad, because it's so much for us.

SPEAKER_03 52:54

That's nice, you know what? It's it's nice to see that it comes around that soon. I mean, I I know since I'm a parent, I have much more gratitude for for my parents and kind of what we put them on that sort of thing. Um, what's what's his favorite dinner that he wants you to make when he gets home?

SPEAKER_01 53:08

Well, it's kind of a Minnesota thing. Um, there's a thing called hamburger hot dish. It's like one of the Midwestern thing. You get like ground beef and then you put like green beans on top, okay, and then you put um a can of like mushroom soup. Okay, and then you put tater tops on top and you bake it. And it's a Minnesota, like my husband's parents make it. It's called hamburger. I mean, it's not a casserole, it's a hot dish.

SPEAKER_03 53:41

My grandmother had a version, there was no hamburger in it in it, but it was it was like we did it was like green beans, there was definitely cream and mushroom soup, and then we did like crumbled Ritz crackers on the top, but there was no protein. Maybe not I I'm from New York State, so maybe it was like a Western New York thing. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 53:56

No hamburger. Yeah, so this recipe, you know, he's in Colorado, and so you know, he makes it for friends on because they do this Tuesday night thing, and yeah, um, he's like, I said, Do they like the hamburger hot dish? And I didn't grow up in the Midwest, you know, so I'm like southwestern person. Yeah, it's like one of my favorite easiest things that all the kids like that don't eat.

SPEAKER_03 54:17

Uh I might have to get the recipe and try that out. My son doesn't eat anything, but my daughter might eat that one soon. Next thing we'll be doing is a cooking, a cookbook by turnable. Right, right. All right, what's one piece of advice for moms?

SPEAKER_01 54:34

I think um now that we're on the the the side of like having older children and uh becoming parents and from afar and just trusting that okay, we we gave you the tools, you just gotta be on your own, is to embrace those moments um with your child at every level. It's hard at times, like you said, connecting maybe with your 13-year-old, but there's gonna be a time when you're they're gonna leave. And I think that really hit my husband and I because we still miss our son. And you know, we have a son who's an 18-year-old, he's graduating this year. Um, and we just sometimes look at each other like, where did this time go? Yes. We were so busy. I mean, our kids, we had kids, you know, those four, and but we are very a close family because we were one of the families that didn't do too much stuff. And so our our kids are really close and our families are really close. We enjoy being together, but just embracing those times of you know, being together and them it's hard at times, but it somehow you make it through because then as they get older, it's it's different because you have no more control, right? You have no more control, yeah. You do, in a sense, they call you for advice, but they have to make the decision on their own. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:56

I've really felt that these last two years. Um, next year, both will be in middle school, and so we'll be done with elementary. And it's right the the the numbers on the top side before they're out of the house are getting smaller and smaller, and um, yeah, I didn't think it was gonna happen that quick. They tell you, but you don't really believe it.

SPEAKER_01 56:13

Yeah, I I agree, I agree. I remember when I looked we dropped off my son at college and um in Colorado. Yeah, I thought he's not supposed, he's not supposed to. I have to he has to come with me. That was really hard, and like grieving their childhood, that was hard grieving that. Like I would see a little boy playing on a playground, I just ball my eyes out because I'm like, now he's away. Because you don't mind you're still thinking that that they're that little guy or that little girl. Yes, yeah, that's hard. Oh god, no, dear.

SPEAKER_03 56:50

Right. Thanks, Verna. I know, yeah. So anyway, all right. Who is someone in the native space that we should know about? Like who's who's doing some great things in your space right now?

SPEAKER_01 57:01

Yes. Well, I um my leadership team, there's three women, um, like Marlinda Francisco just want she just not she don't want, she she ran the Boston Marathon. She is um um from a tribe down in Tucson, and um she's a runner, but also she works within her community. Uh just the events holds health like fitness classes for her community, you know, um cycling, and I think she's really one that's doing amazing work that maybe you don't see that on a larger scale, but she's doing amazing. And my other leadership team member, Angel, who um she's a counselor, I think at school, but she does she just can bring people together. Like I'll say, if we have an event, she will bring people together, and that's kind of her gift. And I just feel like she does such a good job. And the other gal who's coming to Berlin with me, um you know, she's from the Canada of the Metis tribe, and she's a teacher, and just how much knowledge she has. Like all three of them, I chose them because of just their connection to their people, but to their to themselves or community and how positive they are. Yep. Uh, because our community can be easily, we want to drag each other down or be negative, and we're we're changing that. And you want people who are like-minded in that way. So I think all three of them are just doing amazing work, and um I feel honored that they want to be part of NWR.

SPEAKER_03 58:33

I I love hearing that. We had a um an episode on, I think last year. Um uh Annie Cree, who's in the Iroquois Nation up in upstate New York, um, did a lot with just getting moms out to go hiking and walking and um getting kids out. And it is that community um support and involvement that I think does make such a big difference. I think that's fantastic. That's fantastic. All right, and then last one here, what does it mean to you to be an active mom?

SPEAKER_01 59:02

Um, it means a lot. You know, it's hard. I I wake up early to do this uh running thing. I try to be at the gym at five. Um, I've always since they were little, I woke up, I woke up early to like run. Like this morning I woke up at four, was there at five. It means a lot, not just for me physically and but just or training for a race. It's really mental and it makes you feel good. It really releases a lot of like just what especially when I go trail running, releases a lot of tears or just trying to heal and grieve grieve. I think those are I think those are really important. It's just yeah, um, just to be an active mom.

SPEAKER_03 59:39

Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. All right. If you want to know more about Verna, you can find her on Instagram. Hose I'm gonna have you say that.

SPEAKER_01 59:50

Um it's it's Hojon Runner for and Hojon in Navajo means like um beautiful, like you're living in balance. And so Hajon Runner and number four, so my four kids.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:01

So uh I I knew I had a meeting and I didn't want to ruin it. So thank you for saving me there. Yeah, and then also you can find her at native underscore women underscore running over on Instagram. Um, and we can't wait to see how Berlin turns out. Um, so follow her stories to see how that turns out. Um, but Verna Volker, thank you so much for sharing your story and sharing your community um on the Active Mom podcast. Thank you so much. Did you enjoy the podcast? If so, leave us a five-star review on iTunes and L Friends. Are you a first part of Mom or First Part of wanting to know more about getting back to Red Active Data? Check out all the