Physician Burnout Tips that Anyone Can Put into Practice, with Joe Sherman MD

In this episode of GUTS, I talk with Joe Sherman, MD.

Joe is a board-certified pediatrician who has had a successful career, but despite his professional success he experienced episodes of profound burnout which necessitated his leaving medicine temporarily to reflect on why he became a physician in the first place. He also wrestled with his identity, striving to understand his true self AND be a doctor, instead of his identity being dominated by his professional life.

Joe touches upon all of this and more in our chat, including:

• His experience with burnout and trauma
• What brought him to the breaking point where he realized something had to change
• Tips for doctors who are experiencing burnout — that non-MDs could also employ to lessen burnout
• Joe's desire to lead a life that is true to himself
• The conditioned thinking that exists in the medical world that normalizes the "suck it up" philosophy
• Needing help is not a sign of weakness

If you’re interested in learning more about what Joe does, or would like to book a coaching session with him, you can visit his website at: www.joeshermanmd.com

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ABOUT JOEY
Joey is a certified Teacher of Presence Life Coach, having studied with Eckhart Tolle at The School of Awakening. He has also studied, and practices, Native American spirituality, Buddhism, and the teachings of Ram Dass. Joey has been practicing mindfulness and meditation for many years, and is a long-time student on the subjects of self-care, neuroplasticity, trauma, psychology, spirituality, goals, and relationships.

LEARN MORE
Learn more about Joey, his life coaching practice, or book a complimentary discovery call by visiting his website.

Transcript

Joey Guido (00:00)
today we have Joe Sherman on the show. And Joe is a board certified pediatrician and master certified physician development coach. He is also a consultant to both individuals and healthcare professionals and organizations in the areas of career discernment, leadership and provider wellbeing. His services include individual coaching, public speaking, workshop and retreat facilitation. And Joe has helped many healthcare professionals find relief from burnout and rediscover the joy of practicing medicine. And with that, Joe, welcome to the show.

Joe Sherman (00:43)
Thanks so much for having me, Joey. I appreciate it.

Joey Guido (00:46)
Yeah, you're very welcome. And we'll just get started with our conversation. And the first question I have for you is how long have you been a doctor?

Joe Sherman (00:58)
Well, I've been a doctor for 40 years, have been a pediatrician for 37 years, 38 years or so. So it's been quite a long time. I took the route straight through, through undergraduate medical school residency and was starting to practice when I was 28 years old.

Joey Guido (01:18)
Okay. Would that be considered like a quick track to...

Joe Sherman (01:23)
Yeah, know, people go nowadays and even back then, some people go through undergraduate studies and then they'll work or do something different for a while and decide later that they want to go to medical school. Some people take time off in between undergrad and medical school. I went straight through. In addition, there are only a few residencies that are only three years long: pediatrics, general internal medicine, family medicine. Just about all other residencies are more years than that. given the fact that I didn't stop and went straight through, not that I would recommend that to everybody, but I was out at a pretty young age practicing.

Joey Guido (02:10)
Hahaha.

Okay, okay. And kind of a follow up question to that is what during this kind of consecutive working through to be practicing, how did that feel?

Joe Sherman (02:32)
That's a big question. would say, you know, through my undergraduate years, there was a lot that happened in my life. ⁓ Both of my parents got very ill and ultimately died before I graduated, which was a major traumatic experience for me. ⁓ All through medical school, I'm sorry, all through undergrad.

Joe Sherman (03:00)
I had planned on going to medical school. That did make me kind of stop and think about, this the path I want to take? I was also attracted to teaching or counseling, even ministry at some point. Ultimately, in that time in my life, I felt like continuing with the plan of going to medical school and I was already in and accepted.

that that was the path of ⁓ least resistance in some way. It was a way that I could just keep going with the plan and not stop to actually reflect on what was going on, ⁓ which made medical school very challenging, very isolating, and a time of grieving while I was trying to work very hard to become a physician.

Joey Guido (03:36)
Yeah, that brings up a great point because a lot of times what I find is that when people do the kind of work you do and that I do, sometimes there's this misconception that you're kind of like in this vacuum, you know, there's this one thing we're dealing with like going to school to become a doctor or dealing with the loss of one's parents.

And that's just part of kind of like this stew of life that we're in. And you made me think of when my wife, my wife is a massage therapist and a healer and a shamanic practitioner. And when she was probably around two thirds through massage school in New York, she almost died. She had an ectopic pregnancy that wound her up in the emergency room. And so...

kind of similar to your story when she was able to go back to school, which was pretty quick medically, not so quick emotionally. She did go right back and work through that grief while she went to school.

And so think one of the things that's really important, whether the listeners are MDs or students or not affiliated with being a doctor at all, it's we've got to take all these points of life and allow them space to coexist.

Joe Sherman (05:26)
Yes, it's one of those things that I think... ⁓

At the time, for me in my life, I didn't have, I had friends and I had people that were supporting me. There were no counselors, therapists, anyone else that I was working with at the time. And as I went through medical school, there were several times where I was doubting my path. was thinking and looking at friends that were taking other paths.

and thinking, boy, I should do that, I should do this, what am I doing here? And I would go to other people who were friends and they would kind of convince me to stay in and keep going. And I don't regret any of this. I don't really look back and say, oh, I made the mistake, I should never have become a doctor. I truly believe I was meant to be a pediatrician. I truly believe that I was able to.

fulfill many of the callings that I felt in my life ⁓ and still feel that way. I wish looking back I had some of the more formal and professional supports that I could have used at the time. At the same time, I can't look back and say, ⁓ I made a mistake by taking it.

Joey Guido (06:54)
Yeah, that's good. And I think even if at some point something does feel like a quote unquote mistake, it's okay to shift gears and try something else. And I always find it interesting too, because what you didn't know back then that you'd be doing some of the work you do today and helping other physicians. Which I always think we have these experiences in life that at the time

can be very traumatic or kind of knock us off the path we're on, but ultimately later we can look back and say, yeah, like my wife's illnesses have led me to a path of us being here today and me helping other people with anxiety, worry, fear, trauma. And that kind of leads me to my next question. What you've really kind of an inkling to already, it's if you can...

share your story of overwhelm and burnout and what did lead you to this more formal exploration, self-exploration. You know, when you hit that breaking point, what led you to leave the profession for a time and ultimately discover Parker Palmer's writings and the Center for Courage and Renewal.

Joe Sherman (08:17)
Yeah, thanks for that question. I would say from the time that I can remember back in medical school, I've been a reflective person. And as an undergraduate, because I was really striving to gain acceptance to medical school, I was very careful about what classes I took. And I was a kind of math and science person. I was not a good writer or reader. I didn't write papers very well.

So I really avoided a lot of the social sciences and humanities. And then during medical school, I found myself reading philosophy and psychology and all of these other things that I never got a chance to do as an undergraduate student. And I also started journaling. I journaled starting in my second year of medical school. And it was an opportunity for me to reflect on my experiences, to process my thoughts and feelings, emotions. And I kept that up.

to this day, have volumes and volumes of journals, but as I went into my career as a pediatrician, I switched jobs quite frequently, I would say. For myself back then, I never had a job longer than maybe five years. And there were life experiences that happened to me that caused me to switch. But also I believe in looking back

There were times where I just threw myself into my work with everything I had and sometimes used my work as a treatment for my anxiety, for my feelings of ⁓ being misplaced, my feelings of feeling isolated or left out. There was always more work to do as a doctor. I could always kind of see more patients or go back into the hospital and so forth.

Joey Guido (10:07)
Hahaha

Joe Sherman (10:13)
But the real ⁓ turning point came after our family was living in Bolivia for four years. We were there working with a mission organization, my wife, myself, and our two young children. And we returned and I had this amazing experience in Bolivia where I was able to be a pediatrician, but also to be a teacher, be a counselor, to be a community organizer.

to be a cultural ambassador. was all these various things that really spoke to who I am as a person. And then I came back and it was this part of my brain kind of snapped and said, all right, get with it, Joe. Get back in the game. You have to be a doctor. You have to adjust to being back in the country. You have to start making a living and providing for your family.

So I took a job and it was right in the thick of seeing patients, of being a medical director for a busy clinic, dealing with low resources and having to make up for that myself. And again, I used all those tools that I had been taught throughout my entire life. If things aren't working too well, just work harder. Just keep throwing more time in.

try to work harder, there must be something more you can do. And I did that and I put in more and more time. I became more and more anxious. I started to dread going in to work every day. Eventually, I had to quit. And I remember very well, I was seeing a psychiatrist at the time for anxiety and some depression and things just didn't seem to be getting better.

One day he said, on our next appointment, want you to bring your wife in with you. And so I did. And when I came into the office and we were sitting with him, he looked at her and he asked her, how do you think Joe's doing? And she broke into tears and said, I don't think he's doing well at all. And to be honest, I'm afraid I might lose him.

That was somewhat of a shock to me. It wasn't completely out of the blue, but my doctor looked at me and said, what do you think? And I said, I think I have to quit my job. And he said, how soon? And he said, I'm glad that you came to this conclusion before I had to make the decision for you.

Joe Sherman (13:07)
That's the beginning of the next phase of my life. It was very, very challenging to stop, step away from medicine. It wasn't the end of my practice in medicine. I did go back in a limited fashion for a couple of other jobs, but it was definitely after a tremendous transition of ⁓ self-reflection and self-awareness.

Joey Guido (13:10)
Hmm.

Mm.

You've brought up so many, so many things that strike a chord. One of the first ones was when you talked about journaling and I am I too am an avid journal or many hundreds of notebooks that have been started and finished. One thing I find interesting is the more the more I've worked on mindfulness and consciousness, the more my journaling has shifted from.

more like what I'll call real world issues, more to contemplative things about spirituality or consciousness or kind of documenting this duality of how I feel like sometimes, you know, the things you're talking about, I know for me, even though I do this work every day,

I still have moments and days where it's really hard. And one of my conceptions used to be was that like, okay, you know, once I get far enough along in this work, I'm just not gonna feel that way anymore. And then I realized one day, yeah, no, that's not how it works. How it works is that when I'm feeling that way, there's room for more than just that struggle or that suffering.

or that trigger that just went off. And I would guess it's the same for doctors because there seems to me to be this constant pressure that year after year, I've been with my doctor for many years and I see it ratchet up every year, shorter appointments, see more people, bring your work home.

still provide that care that I remember 20 years ago, you'd go to the doctor and there was room to have a discussion with a good doctor like you who understood it's not about, let's just look at why your back hurts. Or let's just prescribe amitriptyline so you can sleep better and maybe not feel as depressed. Let's look at what the input is that's causing these things. So.

Do you feel the same? you feel like sometimes it feels like it used to and sometimes it just feels so much easier?

Joe Sherman (16:03)
I think that having practiced medicine over such a long period of time, I've seen how things have changed over the years and the pressures are mounting on physicians these days. The biggest change that I have seen is the administrative burden that is placed on doctors today. When I first started practicing,

everything was in paper, paper charts. weren't a lot of computers. The internet didn't exist. So, I mean, it was a whole different world out there. Today, physicians see patients and in the process of trying to establish that relationship in the back of their minds is now all of this pressure to think, how many messages do I have in my in-basket? How many

Joey Guido (16:35)
Hahaha

Joe Sherman (16:57)
electronic charts do I have to complete? ⁓ How many more patients are they going to put on my schedule? How much are they gonna be following me and monitoring what I do and checking my reviews to see if I'm getting good feedback from my patients and so forth? There are just so many other pressures that are placed on physicians today.

that takes them away from that essential relationship with their patients.

Joey Guido (17:28)
Yeah, yeah. it's, I can see the burden even on my doctor and my wife shares the same doctor and it's, he works in two worlds. He works in Eastern and Western. So he's a doctor, he's gone to school, he's graduated, he has his credentials, but he's also done a lot of working with Eastern modalities and spirituality. So it's interesting because when I sit with him,

It's not always doctor to patient because we're both in the spiritual realm at the same time. So it's sometimes kind of like making space for each other. And yeah, it's very interesting. And it's the bureaucracy. It's like always there's this confinement that just seems to get smaller and smaller. leads me to a question which earlier you mentioned leaving.

temporarily the practice. And we had spoken before today about Parker Palmer and I kind of wanted to see if you wouldn't mind talking about how that worked for you and how that helped you kind of almost in a way rebuild yourself.

Joe Sherman (18:47)
Sure, at the time, even before I resigned my position back then, I was seen a therapist and she recommended that I read this book called Let Your Life Speak by Parker Palmer. And as I read this book, before I read the book, I was thinking, I'm just so defective, I feel like I'm a fraud.

I have been a doctor all this time, but I have this other part of me that

inside of me that I don't understand, I always think that I've been taking the wrong path, why can't I just be like everybody else and just move ahead in life? And then I read this book and Parker Palmer kind of lays out this description of exactly the process that I was going through and about how inside all of us have this authentic self, this

Joey Guido (19:47)
Hmm.

Joe Sherman (19:54)
being that yearns to be expressed, to be out there and living in the world and express himself, herself, theirself freely. And yet society and our own upbringing and the pressures that are placed on us have us put up walls, have us behave in different ways in order to try to navigate the world around us the way that it's presented to us.

context that we have. So there are parts of us that are held back, parts of us that are reserved, parts that ⁓ get hidden away. And as a result of having this gap, he calls it the tragic gap or this divided life of who we are with how we're presenting to the world, that produces anxiety, that produces, takes a lot of stress.

And we need to somehow be able to break open and break through that and show ways that we can be our true selves in the world and with each other. And then that decreases that anxiety because that difference between who we are and what we show to the world becomes less. And that is what I read about. That's what I wanted to pursue.

increase that self-awareness to understand myself better, to accept and have compassion for myself better, and as a result the anxiety decreased. And I was able to, I mean it wasn't like magic, it was a lot of trial and error. was, like you say, it's not that everything disappears, it's just that I develop tools and learn about myself so that I can deal with those situations better.

Joey Guido (21:47)
Yeah, yeah, manage it. That's what I feel, too. I feel like when these kind of emotional or cognitive spikes happen, they just they don't feel like they escalate as much because there's this groundedness in place. There's tools. For me, it's typically every morning a brief meditation, maybe 15 minutes.

I'll do one of those high intensity interval training programs. But it's kind of like, it's almost like making your bed in the morning. I feel like that kind of sets the stage and helps me step into a more mindful day. And what I find is funny is sometimes I'll do my work in the morning and then I'll come upstairs to cook breakfast. And like while I'm doing the work or the movement,

I don't really feel like anything's happening, but I don't judge it. I just do it, try to be there for it in that moment. But then I come up and it's like, there's a little room to breathe now.

You mentioned earlier kind of all of these social obligations and I'm kind of paraphrasing what you said, but I think especially as men and women have different ones. And what I found as a man and a husband, there's kind of like this suck it up attitude, right? Which is what appears to be put upon doctors. Just suck it up.

You were saying earlier, like this concept, while it's not working right, I'll just put more time into it. And more time into it, and then all of a sudden, the work you're doing, it's more time, but it's less effective.

And I'm really glad you shared that and I'm really glad that you shared that your wife came with you. I think one of the concepts that we've danced around a little bit is this kind of shame. Like men or doctors might feel shame that they need help, but what they forget is that we're all human beings.

And there is no shame in getting that help just like the patients come to you for help. And that was a big lesson for me when went when my wife got sick. It was kind of all hands on deck. Take care of my two sons. Take care of my wife and take care of my clients. I run a small marketing firm as well. And I did nothing for myself until I got to a point where I almost became an alcoholic, and was falling apart.

So for me, was like, all right, you know what? ⁓ I needed to step back and assess what do I need to do to be OK?

And for me it was therapy, was joining a men's group, and it was starting to trial and error, like you had mentioned, like what works and what doesn't work for self-care.

And I think, you just you as a doctor know this better than anybody. If someone comes into you and says, hey, here is my problem, and they just want you to hand them a pill, that's not the answer.

Joe Sherman (25:26)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's so many different things that you mentioned. I it depends on your upbringing. For me, there was, I was the youngest of this large family. There was this philosophy of get out there, get to work, earn your living.

And ⁓ the whole concept of suck it up, just deal with it, you have to keep going. And then the whole culture of medical training just goes along with that. Everything that we're taught in medical school and residency is, look, if you can't hack it, then get out, just keep going. Don't deal with your emotions, just suck it up and go. And...

Just like you say, being a male in our society, being raised with that type of mentality, and then having the culture of medicine ⁓ kind of superimpose itself. What ends up happening is any other way that we knew about processing our emotions, even acknowledging our emotions, kind of get pushed to the sideline to where we forget, even if they were ever there.

I think that this is one of the reasons why women in medicine now, there will be in the future a majority of women in medicine and yet still in medicine today it's a male dominated culture. And that goes along with kind of the society expectations of male, female and all of this. And so with my clients now and just the same process I had to go through to acknowledge my

to be able to recognize when I am suffering, to recognize when I need my own self-compassion, when I need to acknowledge how my emotions are being expressed physically in my body. All of these things were so brand new to me at a very advanced age in my life. And these are things that many other people deal with much earlier in life. And so,

For my clients now, I have to kind of get in there and meet them where they are in this whole suck it up, buttercup mentality and then try to say, okay, let's look at another alternative way of looking at this. What's really happening to you physically, emotionally, spiritually? Because this is the space that you can talk about those things. It's okay to talk about it. There is no shame in it. That's called

Joey Guido (27:46)
Yep.

Ha ha!

Joe Sherman (28:08)
human being, it's called humanity, that's what we are. We're not these superheroes, we're not superhuman. So all of these things are ⁓ shifts in the culture and shifts in the mindset that I think especially male physicians need to make eventually in their lives. There are some that never

never come to that point. Many of the physicians never come to that point because they're able to surround themselves with an environment that allows them to continue. But I think eventually that catches up to you.

Joey Guido (28:50)
Yeah, yeah, and it's in a lot of ways it's kind of like an unconscious life.

Joe Sherman (28:58)
Exactly.

Joey Guido (28:58)
I feel like, you know, the word human being is the combination of two words for a reason, right? And I think that that suck it up mentality is kind of part of this tapestry that humanity has made for whatever reasons. And the beingness, whether we call it mindfulness, consciousness, being in the moment, that higher self, that connection to spirit, kind of like you mentioned, gets kind of

pushed out of the frame and reinforced by this constant slow evolutionary process of what society tells us. And it's interesting because we live in Madison, Wisconsin, but we're native New Yorkers. So we lived in a town where it was a melting pot. So there was a lot of cultures and a lot of mixing. And I always grew up

kind of being more on the open end of assessing things, does that make sense or not, as opposed to like this real strict regimented way of living life.

which kind of leads me to my next question is you know what what what would you suggest that a doctor do if they were in a situation where they are surrounded by this suck it up culture but realize they kind of need to make this shift

Joe Sherman (30:28)
I think first of all, you have to recognize within yourself what's happening. And if you're feeling this sense of dread when you go into work, if you're feeling as if you're really not being effective at treating your patients because everything else is getting in the way and you feel like you're really not a very good doctor, if you start to feel like you even resent even having to take care of patients.

These are all symptoms and signs of burnout. Eventually, this can go on and you become increasingly anxious and even depressed and feel yourself separated and isolated from everyone else. So as you see this start to appear, the most important thing is to realize that you do need to reach out for help. It's not

shaming. I mean, there may be that sense of shame there. Shame, also believe, is a normal human emotion. But also to realize that just like your patients need help, just like you refer patients to consultants, to therapists, to psychiatrists, to mental health providers, we need mental health providers. We need coaches, we need therapists, we need spiritual directors, we need everything. All of those supports.

because the pressures and the constant stress placed upon physicians really call upon us to look outside and to get that type of help that we need to then internalize that and to be able to put it into practice and to be a habit so that we can reach some balance in our lives. Before, I would say when I first started as a pediatrician, I had the belief that

This is going to be my life. It's my vocation. I will throw everything into it. And everybody else, if I find a life partner, they just have to kind of fit in somewhere. If I have children, they have to kind of fit in somewhere. That was the way I looked at things before. And I think many physicians go into practice feeling that way. And they feel like there may be no other alternative. There is an alternative. There is a reality where you can

reach a balance and that if you do take care of yourself, if you get the support you need, if you're able to take a break, if you're able to institute these small little practices that help you re-center yourself and reset yourself, then you can come at the practice of medicine with a whole new mindset and one that brings your authentic self to the forefront, giving your patients what they truly deserve, your full self, not just a piece of you.

Joey Guido (33:27)
Yeah, that's I love it. I love it. And the way you explained it is really clear because what you just described is really something that any advice or or a practice that anybody can take up. And it's it's it's something you just mentioned was kind of that being defined by your career and everything else kind of fitting in. And I love what you said about

Balance and to me like balance we never really get that balancing point right just to the middle It might flash there for a day or two, but it kind of tips one way or the other But I always I always joke it's like, you know, it's not about perfect balance. It's about the striving for balance So that the rest of you can be present When you're working with your patients and when you're not working with your patients You are still

developing the rest of your self or your beingness, whatever part of that is, whether it's journaling or spiritual or understanding that, this is a stressful profession and getting out there and doing something as simple as a 15 minute walk or run can help you tremendously metabolize that stress, which is something I learned from Mark Brady, who was a specialist in brain development.

And I was floored because I was doing this naturally, kind of just going out and exercising. And there's a real kind of cleansing. It's almost like taking an emotional shower, getting rid of stuff, leaving it behind.

So one last question I'd like to ask is, there one more tip, because I think that was a really good tip. Is there one more tip or low hanging fruit that you can suggest that doctors or anybody take, whether it's their first step into this realm of getting support or whether it's something to try on their own just to see how it makes them feel.

Joe Sherman (35:47)
Sure. I think the most impactful and significant ⁓ practice and concept that I became aware of and now is part of my daily life is the ⁓ whole approach of self-compassion. And we talk about self-care all the time. People kind of know, yeah, I'm supposed to exercise, I'm supposed to eat right, supposed to sleep right, all these different things.

But for me, when I heard Kristin Neff, who's a psychologist whose specialty is self-compassion, mindful self-compassion, and she talked about how we can.

in addition to just being mindful and present in the moment, that we can actually recognize that we're hurting or suffering in some way and do something specifically for ourselves in the moment to assist ourselves, to support ourselves. And this idea of self-compassion, when I explained it to physicians, I said, as you have a patient in front of you who you really are invested in,

or even your own child or someone you love, and they're hurting in some way, they're suffering, or they're feeling bad because they fell short of their own expectations of what they felt they should be, how would you approach that person who you really truly love? And very often they say, ⁓ you know, I would say, ⁓ I'm so sorry, you know, I just want to be here for you, I feel...

I know, I believe in you, it's okay, you can do it, I believe in you, let me give you a hug, let me hold you, let me do these things. And then, if you can do that for someone else, you can do the same thing for yourself. You can hold yourself, you can place a hand on your chest, you can place a hand on your shoulders, you can close your eyes, you can say, ⁓ this really hurts.

I hate that it's happening to me. Ugh, you know, this happens to other people. I'm not alone in this. This is a normal part of life. What do I need right now? I just need to know that I'm loved, that this is not going to be forever, that I can take care of myself, that there is a way through this.

And by doing this and actually speaking to yourself silently, holding yourself, that there is a shift that you feel. There is a difference. It's not, you know, again, like the heavens opening and everything, but bit by bit, if you're able to practice this, when you feel like you are down, when you feel like you are suffering in some way, it's something that you can actually do for yourself and it makes a difference. And then...

it's actually physiologically stimulating the vagus nerve, activating the parasympathetic nervous system by placing your hand on your chest. You actually stimulate the release of oxytocin, which makes you feel nurtured and held. So all of these things have physiologic basis. And so this is what you can do for yourself. It's something that's very simple. There's a lot that's on the internet, a lot of practices about it. It's kind of an offshoot of mindful.

mindful practice, mindfulness-based stress reduction and things like that.

Joey Guido (39:31)
That's great advice. That's great advice. And that's something that similarly what I will work on myself and work on with my clients. And there's often surprise because what I learned not that long ago is that the vagus nerve, the communication from the body to the brain is larger than the communication from the brain to the body. So just what you're saying, just putting the hand on the chest.

or on the shoulders, or that little hug. There's something very nurturing and comforting. And what that's telling, what's in between our ears is that everything's okay. Yes, this is hard. Yes, I'm experiencing stress. Yes, I'm overwhelmed. And my body's telling me it's okay, I'm okay.

And what you're talking about, the language I use is often observing. You know, taking that moment to observe and speak about how you feel, you become the observer of it. And in some way, it helps separate you from that. So you become someone experiencing that and observing yourself experiencing it instead of thinking you are that. Very different frame of mind.

What I'd like to say is like we're in Wisconsin, so if it's cold out in the middle of the winter, if you go outside in a t-shirt, you're going to feel cold, but you're not the cold. You're experiencing it. And so I think that's kind of sums up what you just said. Joe, you've been you've been a fantastic guest. really want to thank you for being on the show today.

Joey Guido (41:21)
If you're listening and you're interested in learning more about what Joe does or would like to book a coaching session with him, you can visit his website at joeshermand.com and that's J-O-E-S-H-E-R-M-A-N-M-D.com. And with that, Joe, thanks so much for being on the show today. I really, really had a great time with you.

Joe Sherman (41:47)
Thank you so much for having me, Joey. I enjoyed our discussion.

Joey Guido (41:50)
Yeah, you're very welcome.