What's The Human Stack & Why We ALL Need It with Tim Lockie

Today we're stepping into a world where technology meets humanity. 

My good friend Tim Lockie is here to break down his revolutionary concept "The Human Stack", that champions the integration of human elements into the nonprofit tech sphere, prioritizing meaningful connections and community building over mere data collection.

In this episode, we'll navigate the differences between a tech stack vs. a human stack, the challenges small teams face when it comes to technology, and how you can galvanize a digital culture that's centered around people.

You’ll also learn the art of choosing the right digital tools, how to reevaluate them when necessary, and why you need a meticulously designed "request funnel."

Whether you're a one-person show doing #allofthethings or a medium to large organization, by the end of this conversation, you'll be on track to confidently maintain your data, manage systems, and drive digital culture in your nonprofit!

Resources & Links

Connect with Tim on LinkedIn and learn more about his work on The Human Stack website. You can also check out his self-guided course for nonprofits, Digital Driver’s Ed.

Applications are closing soon for my Monthly Giving Mastermind program! Ready to build a dedicated community of recurring donors to generate consistent revenue? Let's make it happen together. Learn more and apply here.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:36

If you're out there stressing out because you're not using all of your tech, stop it. Who cares? You don't need to use all your tech. Maybe it was built for someone that has an off-grid place, right? So I think the first question is don't ever evaluate the tech. Evaluate what are we trying to get done and can we do it, and when you can't, then solve the thing you can't do.

Speaker 2: 2:05

Hey, there, you're listening to the Missions to Movement's podcast and I'm your host, dana Snyder, digital Strategist for Non-Profits and Founder and CEO of Positive Equations. This show highlights the digital strategies of organizations making a positive impact in the world. Ready to learn the latest trends, actionable tips and the real stories from behind the feed? Let's transform your mission into a movement. Hello, welcome back to another amazing, brilliant episode, because I already know who I'm talking to. On the other side of this recording of Missions to Movement, I am joined by a good friend of mine, tim Lockheed. You're just catching up on his 10 tips that he gave me before I had Kennedy. We met at the Non-Profit Storytelling Conference last year. In where were we? We were in Texas.

Speaker 1: 3:02

Texas yeah.

Speaker 2: 3:04

San Antonio.

Speaker 1: 3:05

San Antonio, San Antonio by the Riverwalk. That's what I always remember that place.

Speaker 2: 3:08

Yes, by the Riverwalk it feels like a lifetime ago. Welcome to the show. And I wanted to ask you what's your non-Googleable? Not a word bio.

Speaker 1: 3:23

My non-Googleable bio. Oh my gosh, nobody's. Oh, wow, my head's exploding. That's such a great question. Ok, I have been a horse wrangler at a dude ranch. Yeah, I'm sorry. I worked up in the woods and I peeled you bark with these people in northern Idaho. That taught me all about how hard life is for rural northern Idahoans. I lived in a Christian commune for 13 years where I was partial pastor and partial youth pastor. I almost went to Bible college. I lived in a poor neighborhood in Bozeman Montana, kind of on the other side of the tracks, and ran this community house for guys that were ranging from one step from homelessness all the way to being professionals. I've done a lot of really interesting things.

Speaker 2: 4:21

Wow, that completely blew me away. That's not the direction of all the things that I thought that you would talk about. That's amazing, and that's why I love to ask this question, because the Google thing that you can find is that you are the CEO and would like to say janitor of HumanStack, which is all about integrating human centeredness into technology, is my very basic definition it's a great way to say it. Thanks of what I think that you do, and so the reason for this podcast and why it exists, is to try and break down some of the things that we see on the front facing shiny marketing screens, or what we see on social media, daunting tech platforms, and break it down into what is the actual story behind how all of that is done, and usually it's very scrappy, it's a lot of testing, it's a lot of just like real, raw human interactions, and so you are somebody that talks a lot about having a very healthy digital culture and humanizing the technology that we work with. So I want to just start with can you give us kind of your definition of HumanStack versus Text-Tec, something that you talk about all the time?

Speaker 1: 5:39

Yeah, and the way I got there is that I had to admit I was failing and not just me, but almost all professional services in technology is failing to actually help people use the tech that they have. Now, all of us consultants sort of know that and we don't measure it, because if we really knew it, I think that we'd feel more compelled to do something about it. And in 2019, I went to a conference and somebody put a statistic up on a screen that said 90% of organizations collect data, but only 5% use that data to make decisions, and I did not think that was wrong and I knew that. My fellow consultancy business owners also knew that that probably wasn't wrong, and what spoke to me about that is that the tech work. They're collecting data. The tech works Like the data is getting there Totally and they're not converting data to decision making and that's professional services job. That is the thing I set out to do 10 years before and when I looked at the hundreds of nonprofits I had helped, I wasn't sure how many would be in that 5% or not. And the fact that I didn't know the fact that I didn't know if a client signed up for me within X amount of time they would be making decisions with their data. Just that was the end of that business. Because I didn't believe in what I was doing anymore. I really didn't, and I decided to say how do we do this? My test on if I've got it to work is if I can get my mom to understand it. And I finally nailed it when I said mom, salesforce, microsoft, whatever those are like car manufacturers and my business, my consultancy, is like a car dealership and nonprofits. Come, they order the car, we build it for them in the back and configure all the things donor-advised lighting, whatever. Bring it up to them, give them the keys and then watch them wreck it, driving off the lot, because what they need is Driver's Ed and what we're selling is new cars. The way that we use tech as a team, as a community, is the human stack. A stack is a community of technologies, right, and what we need is a community of humans that are using it collectively.

Speaker 2: 7:57

So true, beautifully succinct, what do you think for the listeners? I'm thinking of those that and I'll do both sides of this struggles, challenges that you see with one person shops when it comes to this.

Speaker 1: 8:11

Yeah, wow, it's hard to be a human stack by yourself, like I'm guessing that you feel this every day. Yeah, for you're like I'm all the things and I am a full human stack I am marketing, I'm sales, I am operations, I am delivery right, I'm PR, like all the things. I think that that's really challenging, and so one of the things I would say is, for one person, shops, the roles in a human stack organizational structure exist. You're just doing all of them, and I think that all of it is challenging. The interoperability of it is really handy. You don't have to have a lot of conversations with other people because it's all inside of you, and so the cohesiveness is really strong. So that's almost always the trade-off. Interoperability is easier the fewer moving pieces that you have, but what you're trading is your ability to scale on that right.

Speaker 2: 9:07

And if you're a small one, two, let's call it person shop and you're thinking about selecting smart tech to help you be more efficient. What's your thoughts on like guiding, coaching them in those decisions?

Speaker 1: 9:21

Yeah, my main thought on small shops is to really focus on the humans first and the emotions that you've got under that and I know that sounds really kumbay-osh, but, for example, the anxiety of putting all of your eggs in one basket needs to get addressed, or the kind of shame that one person shops feel around the unanswered questions that are out there in their inbox that they can't get to that needs to be answered. One of my big questions is always do you really understand what's driving you to make that decision? What's the belief behind the problem you're trying to solve? And when you start there, you end up with better decisions.

Speaker 2: 10:09

And then, on the opposite end of the spectrum, medium, large-sized teams managing multiple roles. Maybe there's managers, bigger teams, there can be large tech that's being utilized. Maybe some people know how to use it, some people don't. When that conversation, when that team comes to you and is having those discussions, what's the thought there? What's the initial guidance?

Speaker 1: 10:38

I start with who, never what. Always start with who, and it's interesting if you start with who and then when, and then what, and then finally how, you end up with a completely different approach and different solutions. So the first thing I try and find is who in the organization is the right person to be holding the 40 to 60 systems that an organization is using? Because a lot of times you know, you've got a marketing team that is using all of these little small, little, pretty easy to use, honestly different apps together, and then you've got salespeople in the CRM and you've got ops people that are running performance management. All of those three systems are actually interdependent and if you don't have someone who's driving the tech, like someone who's thinking about all of those strands and how you hold those together and create a cohesive digital culture, you're going to be running into each other right Over and over. And so I would say again, if you start with who, like who's the person that is going to be making those decisions? And there's always two. There's a leader and that's strategic, and then there's always a guide who is tactical, and what we try and do is we try and work on the relationship between those two people and there are almost always backoffice staff who are then going to help and almost show for the marketing team to where the marketing team needs to go, and the HR team and the fundraising team. You know delivery and program is so important to see like each one of those teams will have their own digital culture, but you need the cohesion of one person that's helping track all of that.

Speaker 2: 12:27

What does that look like? What does like a healthy digital culture look like in terms of a successful non-profit?

Speaker 1: 12:34

Yeah, I can tell you about Meredith at downtown boxing gym. So Meredith is working half time. She's the guide for that organization. It's a small team of about I think, between 30 and 50 staff total. They're in Detroit and the mission I love this mission no boxing till your homework's done, like just so simple, and it's great. They have this huge waiting list. They're ready to grow. They came to me a couple years ago. They were like a pen and paper organization, like just could not get over that digital divide, and we started with Meredith. They were in the Salesforce platform and we did do Salesforce projects with them, but most of what we were doing was meeting with Meredith and then her leader, jessica, and we were creating the kind of continuity where there were tactical things happening in our methodology in the week and then strategic things happening every month and we just focused on working on maintaining data and managing requests and one of the rules is we don't fix anything that isn't requested and you try and get people to complain. Complaining is a sign of hope. So we would say to the fundraising team hey, if it's not working, please complain about it. We want to know about it and we'll make it easy. You can do it in less than 30 seconds. And then we taught Meredith how to manage all those requests and how to maintain data, and slowly over time not even that slowly with any year she was actually doing that really, really effectively. They're now doing six data cleaning KPIs every month and they're meeting those 85% per week or more. They're creating about 25 requests per month and over half of those are coming from her team, not just from them. So you can see, this is the kind of momentum that you build and if you work on that for even a couple of years, what you find is that it doesn't take all your time.

Speaker 2: 14:36

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:37

But that regular just moving forward together creates a huge amount of momentum.

Speaker 2: 14:41

Can you give me an example of when you say the strategic requests and then, more tactical, of what examples of what each of those might be?

Speaker 1: 14:50

So a strategic one was more hey, we want to look at the email system we're using to run all of our campaigns, what systems should we do? And I think they were in MailChimp at the time, and so that was more of a strategic request, like what's the tool for this in the long run? And you already know how much goes into a decision like that right, all of the different factors to consider. So that was more of a strategic request. A tactical request would be more like hey, we want to in this one program that we're tracking and we want to connect it to how the funds are being used. On this, we've got this one field that right now is a text field and we feel like maybe it would be better if it were a checkbox field. And then that was the opening bid on that. I think that stayed open for months while they, like ping pong, did around to see all of the different problems if they did it one way or the other. I was involved in some of that. So it was really, really tactical, like what field type should it be? And by the end of that they nailed it and when they landed it, now they, their programs, are so easy to track because they did that process right. They didn't rush it. They said we're gonna get this right and they tracked the data in the meantime. So they just backfilled it and they created a data KPI to track if they had backfilled it correctly, right? So especially the small things, that's the magic. It's the paper cuts that are killing us in tech. Right is the lowercase issues.

Speaker 2: 16:23

I know and I was gonna say it can be so hard, especially if you're a smaller team, to even know where to start with that, and that's let alone Just reevaluating looking at our website and making sure all of the buttons click through to the right page 100%, and what we need is we need the same kind of funnel for requests that we do like in funnels right?

Speaker 1: 16:44

We need to know that, no matter where it comes from, it's all gonna get to one person's Mind in the right meeting with the right stakeholders to evaluate it right, and I think that that's what we functionally created is in the methodology that I invented. After you know my big Jerry McGuire moment in 2019, I was like we need, we need a way to do this the way that we set up tech. We need to configure humans with the same care and design and architecture that we do with the technology, so that if someone says what about this field type, it doesn't get lost in the shuffle. It actually like goes in there and maybe they say this goes on the to-don't list, fair enough, and we say, hey, like we're putting your request to hook this up to the coffee maker in the to-don't list, you know, but at least they know it got heard.

Speaker 2: 17:34

I think that's the thing how often would you say that we should be either reevaluating our tech or going in and, like your point at the beginning, like 90%, we're getting all the data but we're not actually using it? I think also there are so many platforms like CRMs, donation tools. They get updates all the time. I can't even keep up with the emails on what's happening. How to like manage that and like make sure that you're actually getting the real use of the tool that you're doing?

Speaker 1: 18:06

I Love that question and I've never thought of this answer before and I kind of like it. I got this off-road rav for a couple years ago. Now I actually have an off-grid property, so it's kind of helpful. But let's say that I didn't. Let's say I got this Off-road you know rav for and I live in the city and I never went off-road with it. I would have this capability and I would never really use it that much, and who cares? So if you're out there stressing out because you're not using all of your tech, stop it. Who cares? You don't need to use all your tech. Maybe it was built and for someone that has an off-grid place, right? So I think the first question is don't ever evaluate the tech. Evaluate what are we trying to get done and can we do it, and when you can't, then solve the thing you can't do. Right? I'm telling you, like there's all this concern and it's rational about executives that aren't using the tech. Well, right, listen, probably the best thing you could do for your executive is teach them how to use the find function on their browser, like that might be the most helpful thing you teach them this year.

Speaker 2: 19:18

The find function on the browser.

Speaker 1: 19:20

Exactly like they, just so that they are not scrolling through spreadsheets and everything Like if you show them how you can instantly go and find all the places that their name is used in a bio that they're trying to evaluate. You know Suddenly, like that's the thing is, what are the small problems you can solve right now Totally In 10 minutes? Start there and then, if you start finding out what you can't do, like, okay, you're going someplace and you need to go off grid. Okay, or off road, fine, great, now you've got the functionality for it. But until you need it, don't worry about it. What you really want to focus on is where are you trying to go and can you get there with your existing tools Totally? If you focus on that, then you've put the cart. I'm sure there's a cart before horse thing here that I can't figure out right now, but you know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 20:08

Well, I love that because that's also very similar. I talked about in earlier episodes about the changes to GA4 that happened this summer, and I've hired a developer to create all of these reports very easily for me to access within GA4 to answer business questions that I have. And I didn't go into it knowing anything about the backend of what he was going to need to pull. All I said was I want these business questions answered. That was it, yes, and then he said, great, now I need this from you and this login from you and this from you and this from you. And I was like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Wouldn't have thought that you were going to need all of those different things to be able to find that answer. But then now I was like I want to have reports where I can go in and easily click like boom, boom, boom, boom and get the answers that I want. And then you feel so much more empowered by the tech when it is set up to answer the business questions that you wanted to actually show you.

Speaker 1: 21:11

The way of approaching it, like there's all this tech that can do all the stuff that we want to do is an anxiety question, right, Like what you're actually doing is responding to anxiety about missed opportunity. Do not feel shame about that. If that's how people feel, fine, that's no problem. But just recognize the question you're not answering is what problem am I experiencing right now that my tech's not letting me go to? Of the two of those, if you focus on the present problem rather than the what could be done problem, it's going to be better. The second thing you said that I love there is that you treated your problem like you had an Uber driver. Right, you said, hey, I want this destination and you didn't get into the route. Right, like that's the speed, the stop signs, the you know, like the pedestrians, like that's that expert's business, right, you're a passenger and they're getting them there. What I'm trying to do in the human stack is to create a central person that is your Uber driver inside your organization that helps marketing teams get to where they're going and fundraising teams get to where they're going, and it's not the tech that gets us there. We've got the tech. The tech was a lit and we did it. Now what we have is a lack of drivers inside our organizations because we haven't structured the stack and the way that we've stacked our humans together. We haven't set up a community that gets us that driver.

Speaker 2: 22:34

I love this point. How do you and if your small large team doesn't matter, how do you hire for this person? Or if you're not at a place to be able to hire someone new, how do you pinpoint who that person should be?

Speaker 1: 22:51

Okay, wow, I love this question so much. This is the one place where nonprofits have got this thing they feel guilty about, but they're actually on the right track. They're way ahead of the rest of industries, and that is that they have a digital voluntoil. If you say who's running X system, everybody in the organization is going to look at a person. And if you say that enough times about enough systems because even small organizations are running between 20 and 50 systems if you say that enough times, they're going to all look at the same person. That person is what I call a digital voluntoil. They probably don't even have it in their job description. My point is, they're already there, we're just not empowering them, and so I'm not trying to be self-promotional. I built this because it didn't exist, but I created digital drivers, ed to train that person that's already trying to do all of that but doesn't have the positional authority, doesn't have any structure, doesn't have the tools that they need and the roadmap so that they know how to do this. And part of the reason for that is guilt. The organization feels guilty about dumping all the systems on this person, and so they avoid that person and they avoid talking about it Instead, of, what they should do is say we're giving you a huge upgrade, it is a promotion, and we're not going to abandon you after promoting you. We're going to resource you with the tools that you need to do that really well, and so it's almost like the bookkeeper and organization. We're at this juncture in social evolution where we have not realized that we need a bookkeeper for our digital systems, someone that reconciles all the accounts, and all we need to do is teach them how to do that, and it's much easier than we fear, and it's not a full-time position, and you can actually learn it in four to six months how to do all of this, and that's what I teach. So that's what I would say it's designed for. My version is designed for organizations that are 5 to 15, which is 85% of all nonprofits.

Speaker 2: 24:53

Where can somebody find the Driver's Ed program?

Speaker 1: 24:56

Digital Driver's Ed is on our website. You can go and you can sign up for it right now. It's less than $5,000. It is less expensive than two days of technical consulting. I aimed at that level so that people would do it. Anyway, that's where you can find it.

Speaker 2: 25:12

Awesome If you're a smaller organization and maybe you would have to be the person that would do that and you don't want to add something else to your plate. Do you think that this is something where a virtual assistant, a VA, could come in and take the Driver's Ed and then be that person for them?

Speaker 1: 25:27

It's such a good question. I wonder about that all the time. Yes, but it would be a different lift. My advice is to actually empower a person that's mostly doing it. This is 8 to 12 hours a month of their time to handle this. That's doable for the return on investment. However, if you don't have that time, yes, you can bring somebody else in. They can learn this. The nice thing is, if they move on, you've got the tracks. You bring the next person in, do Digital Driver's Ed for them and they learn those skills as well. I think that that's possible. I think that if people are in that situation, they should grab a call with me and talk it over and just see if it makes sense. I see where to start.

Speaker 2: 26:10

Yes, I love that. Just to wrap, I just wanted to ask you and you gave us this earlier but is there an organization that came to you that was feeling overwhelmed by the tech and they now have the human stack, tech stack situation that works and complements them as an organization?

Speaker 1: 26:30

Just one example, maybe, yes, one Valley Community Foundation of Bozeman. The way I like to say it is that the executive director, her name, is Bridget, and in Bozeman where I live, bozeman, montana there are all these amazing programs that happen and they're serving the community in a lot of ways. One of them is to help other nonprofits serve the community. So I say, behind the scenes is Bridget right Helping all these organizations, and behind the Bridget is Jennifer, and Jennifer came to us and was like I don't know how to help Bridget and our team with all of these systems. She came because she had Salesforce and a suite of financial tools that didn't talk to each other. So that's what she came to me and asked about. And she enrolled in digital drivers, ed. And instead of spending all of this effort on fixing that one system, we focused first on the four core skills assessing the current state, maintaining data, managing requests and driving digital culture. That was seven months ago or something. In the meantime she became interim CEO while Bridget was out on maternity leave. Bridget's back, she dropped what she was doing, picked it up when Bridget came back. You should see the difference in their organization, like she feels so much more confident about what's going on in the tech because she feels empowered to say we're not working on this thing right now. I'm working on these other things and I can only do a little bit of tech per month and these are the ones I'm doing, and I've got the next month lined up. But throw your request in and we will put it in the list and we'll figure out as a team where it goes and when it gets done. And so and we didn't solve the big thing yet she just is bringing on someone, an authorized partner, to help with that. But what she found is that that was the thing she needed to align herself and Bridget first, and that's been really helpful to them.

Speaker 2: 28:22

So good. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's a beautiful way to wrap up our conversation, and I wanna just ask you, before I leave, with a couple of extra questions when can people find you, where they can then connect with you?

Speaker 1: 28:36

I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. Say, if you go to LinkedIn you can find me there and you can find me on my website. So thehumansstackcom.

Speaker 2: 28:45

I can verify Tim posts amazing valuable content on LinkedIn, so please go check him out there, go visit the human stack and I cannot wait to just hear all the new work that you're having coming out and big fan, big fan of her.

Speaker 1: 28:59

Thank you and Dana, I didn't, even I didn't. I feel like I didn't get a chance to say thank you for all of the incredible work that you've done for so long in this space and I'm really really inspired. It's so great to be here.

Speaker 2: 29:13

Thank you. I appreciate that, like it's all the warm and fuzzies to end the conversation. If you like this podcast, like Tim does, please leave a review. I promise I read all of them and like to shout them out, so I greatly appreciate you. Thanks all for joining us in another episode of Missions to Movements. Can you tell I love talking all things digital To make this show better. I'd be so grateful for your feedback. Leave a review, take a screenshot of this episode, share it on Instagram stories and tag positive equation with one E so I can reshare and connect with you.