Untangling the Complexities of Intuitive Eating (with Co-Host Hannah Saffold, RDN)

In the final segment of my 2 part series with Hannah Saffold, a seasoned registered dietitian working with eating disorders, we untangle the complex world of intuitive eating. We dive into the misconceptions surrounding this framework and reveal why it's not a one-size-fits-all approach. Together, we confront some troubling trends noticed in the intuitive eating space, including the policing and shaming often accompanying the Health At Every Size® representatives.

Navigating the world of intuitive eating and fostering healthier food relationships can feel like walking a tightrope. In this episode, we delve into the idea of 'gentle nutrition' and the balance between various forces in the food industry, food access, and our inner voice. We also discuss the significance of releasing the clutches of diet culture and meeting people where they are with their food choices. Spoiler alert: you'll learn why working with a professional can be a game-changer on your intuitive eating journey!

Listen as we scrutinize the challenges between adhering to rigid guidelines and critically assessing one's relationship with food and their body. We debate the pros and cons of different diets, including the Health At Every Size paradigm, and how it can aid or hinder your journey to a healthier relationship with food. As we wrap up, we address the recent controversies in the intuitive eating community and the importance of creating an inclusive space for all. So, buckle up and join us on this enlightening journey as we reshape our understanding of intuitive eating and food relationships.

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TOPICS COVERED 👇 

• [0:00] Misconceptions and benefits of intuitive eating
• [7:23] Navigating intuitive eating and healthy eating
• [20:48] Rigid guidelines vs individualization
• [26:36] Social justice challenges and controversies with Health At Every Size® policing

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Transcript

Michelle: 0:00

Welcome back to the Nourished and Free Podcast with our guest host, Hannah Saffold, a registered dietitian. We are co-hosting this episode as well as part one, if you haven't listened to that already, that's where we all get to know both of us a lot better and hear our stories and also hear about the connection that we're seeing between dietitians and eating disorders, as in dietitians who have eating disorders. So very interesting episode if you haven't listened to that already and are interested in that subject. For this episode we're going to be diving into intuitive eating, what it is, the nuances around it that can be confusing for others, and we're also going to be talking about some concerning things that we've started to notice in the intuitive eating space as professionals. So really great conversation coming your way.

Michelle: 0:41

Definitely stick around to the end to hear some of our unpopular opinions. That might get us in trouble, but we're interested to see if anybody else is feeling the same way. To learn more about Hannah, listen to part one and you can also check out her information in the show notes. Okay, we're going to pick up where we left off in part one. The big part of my recovery was intuitive eating, and I know intuitive eating is probably a big topic of interest for both of our listeners, so I'd love to segue into some misconceptions about that.

Michelle: 1:15

There's a lot of misconceptions, which is a bummer because I feel like intuitive eating it's like generally, and for anyone who doesn't know intuitive eating 10 principles created by two dietitians who worked in the eating disorder field, and they specifically created it for people who need to heal a broken relationship with food, and it taps back into eating for instinctual reasons and honoring the body's cues, allowing yourself to eat whatever you want. But I say that I also kind of feel like intuitive eating is for everyone, though, and it just depends on the way that you go about it. If you make it this just eat when you're hungry and stop eating when you're full it's not for hardly anybody, because there's more to it than that, so I'd love to be able to jump into that. But yeah, what do you feel like are some of the misconceptions that you usually hear about intuitive eating?

Hannah: 2:12

I think I kind of want to jump off of what you were saying, where you were like I think intuitive eating is for everyone, because, while I do think that they're, that everyone can eat more intuitively, I think that there are.

Hannah: 2:27

this is a misconception, you know. I think there are places where some people need structure and they do need some guidelines around, like how they're eating. So I think the individualization part is what's lost. I mean, anytime you have a framework of eating, people are tempted to just like take it, like give me the three bullet points and you're like well, it's actually like a whole book and also beyond the book.

Michelle: 2:51

So much beyond the book.

Hannah: 2:52

Right, right. And so I think that's kind of what you were hinting at, where you're saying like intuitive eating in a form, in a various forms, it can be for anyone, but maybe not anyone at any point in time, because certainly if you're early on in eating disorder recovery, you can't you can't jump straight to intuitive eating.

Michelle: 3:16

Because it's impossible, right?

Hannah: 3:18

If you're not having your hunger and fullness cues and you have a lot of rigidity around the way you think about food we can't just like okay, now start intuitive eating. So, I think it that's where it helps to have support from a dietitian or there are some therapists are trained in this kind of thing, but more of dietitians, I think to have support around it, Because because there are things about it that can be really scary for people.

Michelle: 3:46

Yeah.

Hannah: 3:46

Because the idea of letting go of rigidity in rules and structure, when you've been kind of in this small box of eating and all of these rules have kind of kept you safe or what you feel like, it's like kept you, it's been like the way that you've been coping for so long, it's hard to think about letting go. And I think they jump straight to the end of like and then where there's like there. Sometimes there's, like these steps, where it helps to have someone kind of hold your hand through it and absolutely and coach you through it.

Michelle: 4:16

So absolutely, and I love what you said too, like it's not necessarily that intuitive eating is for everyone, but that everybody can eat more intuitively. I think that's beautifully said and and that, yeah, like we, we have issues when there's medical conditions present. Right, with just being an intuitive eater, because people with, like, chronic kidney disease, you know they've got some serious structure that they have to follow for medical reasons and that's not, that's not a joke, you know that's not something we want to mess with. But there's, man, so many aspects, though, of intuitive eating that can be really helpful for even those people, right, like just being more conscious of the eating experience and still allowing yourself to have what you want as best as you can. You know, and then, like to your point to eating disorder, again, is a medical condition and it's just, it's not, it's not going to vibe if we try and do that right away with eating disorder recovery. You know we really need to feed the body and and do some nutrition restoration.

Michelle: 5:20

But, yeah, I just feel like I wish more people knew about it because, with the messages we have in our culture and society being so loud and I forget about it too, right, because I've got, like, my very small amount of people that will follow on social media and that I'll talk to in real life, and I'm very protective of the information that I allow to reach my brain or even process in my brain, and so I get this echo chamber of recovery that I forget how bad it is out there, and then I'll have something remind me and I'm like, oh man, this is like getting worse and it's honestly crazy how much these messages of food rolls and body sizes are still being pushed and I think everybody would benefit from a crash course on letting go of food rolls, you know.

Hannah: 6:13

Yeah, I think you're right around. I think I just resonate with what you said about like letting people in.

Hannah: 6:19

Like it like because I think our whether they're you're like a nutrition student or you're like not a nutrition student we are inundated with all of these messages around food all the time, whether that's from ads or people we follow, and I think it can be really confusing and hard to find your own truth and to find the path that's gonna work for you. And you have this person saying this and this person saying that a lot of clients are coming really confused really.

Hannah: 6:49

And even dietitians are like there's this camp, there's this camp, there's this camp, and I think what I've learned over the years is like we can use what we know to find the truth for that person. So, like I said, it kind of depends on who's sitting in front of me where we're gonna go with it and really it's how to find yeah, give them that, have that autonomy for them to say, okay, when they're ready they'll come to it. Like if that is intuitive, eating is part of their path, like we'll get there and hopefully they will find it.

Hannah: 7:23

But I think people get lost in the different messages where it's like, oh, intuitive eating, just eat whatever all the time and it's like, well, no, there is this idea of gentle nutrition, where we are nourishing our body and trying to treat our body with respect.

Hannah: 7:40

And what does that look like? And so it's a balance, because there's so many forces out there, like in the food industry and food access and like all of these things, where it's like it disconnects us from what is that? Where is that inner voice? That's like I want this. I want that. This feels good. This doesn't I think a lot of us for me too, it's like it's easy to get disconnected.

Michelle: 8:04

Oh yeah.

Hannah: 8:05

And so, because we're all spinning, we're all at this frequency, you gotta kind of, yeah, protect what you take in and try to help ground yourself in what actually is gonna support your physical and mental health.

Hannah: 8:19

So I think one thing that I've changed over the years is not feeling like it has to look any one way, where it's like if someone really doesn't want to consume a certain food or a certain food group even and maybe it's not for medical reasons I'm like, okay, let's work with that. And whereas before, in my earlier years, I would have been like ooh, like in my mind I would have been like, ooh, that's just diet culture, like they'll let go or that's the eating disorder. You know, I used to. I used to because I used to. You know, it is insidious, right.

Michelle: 8:52

Yeah.

Hannah: 8:52

But I think I've let go a little bit of that in the sense of, like everyone you know, meeting people really where they're at, and not just in like saying that, but actually doing it and being like okay, so you want to avoid this for a while, like that's where you're at and trust that they'll find them.

Hannah: 9:07

that the trust, the process, I mean that's kind of cliche, trust the process, but that by doing that and building that trust and that support that they will be able to find health and healing. And it doesn't have to look like everyone can do everything in moderation, because some people don't want to do that. Some people don't want to eat certain things and like that's also okay. What's the amount of healing, what's the least restrictive diet that we can do for that person and still have it being mentally and physically healing for them?

Michelle: 9:39

Yeah, yeah, intuitive eating is so complex because, like the end result, honestly there is no end result right, we continue to work on it the rest of our life as we go through seasons and we're human and we've got different things that come up in our body that need attendance and our attention.

Michelle: 9:59

But then also, like we just our tastes change and our access or access to different things change, and it's I think that's really hard for people to wrap their head around is like there is no destination when it comes to intuitive eating.

Michelle: 10:16

You're never going to get to a point. You're like, okay, I've got it, like I'm done, I have all of my things figured out, all my ducks in a row, because there's just you're going to continue to find new things that are important to you and that work for you, and that's, I think. So, like you were touching on, you know, meeting people where they're at, and I think there's like there's so much beauty in working with a professional through this because they can I mean, if they're, if they can walk the line well, they can meet you where they're at and they can also challenge you in ways that like maybe there is something disordered coming up that we, that you otherwise wouldn't have been able to know without a professional giving you that third person perspective or outside perspective, and be able to say like hey have you thought about this and ask you really good questions.

Michelle: 11:01

It's just like so priceless to have somebody support you in that way and and help you like just walk the journey of intuitive eating even more confidently, because it is. It can be so confusing for people. I can't tell you how many people have gone to me and they're like, yeah, I kind of read the book but I just it didn't work for me. I'm like I don't blame you, you know, if you don't. It just again, is so dependent on the person and what their life is like that there's so much individualization that needs to happen and personalization.

Hannah: 11:39

And that gray area feels uncomfortable for people. It's like, oh, I just want to read the book and just do it. It's like, well, it's going to be an evolving process and I think both of us are. You know, we want to help empower people to eventually be able to do that self-reflection. But in the beginning, when it can feel confusing and overwhelming and scary, it is helpful to have someone who can help support you through that. But my goal is, with all my clients is like I want you to eventually not need me.

Michelle: 12:09

And that's what I say to you.

Hannah: 12:10

You've developed that self-reflection, ability to trust yourself in that way and build that self-trust.

Hannah: 12:17

So, but in the beginning, when you don't, you know you don't trust yourself, it is helpful to have someone, a professional that you do trust to walk you through it and unpack all the different layers to this process, because that's part of what I love about what we do is like there are so many layers and being able to it's like such an honor when I'm able to like walk my clients through it and be there with them through it, and it's it is really, really rewarding.

Michelle: 12:46

So it is. Yeah, it's beautiful. And to see them get to a place, too, where they're able to, like, coach themselves and figure things out themselves, you're like, yes, we're getting to that place now where you're going to be good for life. You know, this isn't just another thing where you're going to need to be locked into a system that you continue to pay every month and have somebody give you this stuff. You're learning to do this all on your own. And I say the exact same things to my clients where I'm like my goal is that you don't need me. You know, when we're done working together, love you, but I got to set you free, otherwise I didn't do a very good job.

Hannah: 13:19

Absolutely and unfortunately. I feel like a lot of people find me and probably maybe find you too after they've been through a lot of suffering, like they've gone through the diets or they've gotten deep in their eating disorder, and then they're finding us and and I know some of that is access and insurance and sometimes it takes that level of suffering for people to reach out for support. It's like okay, wait, I'm not figuring this out on my own. I do need support, so I get it. I understand that part of the change process, but I know you, you've done a lot of really good reviews on these different other different kind of diets and frameworks and things. So I don't know what you, what you, end up like taking from those or if there's anything helpful that you'd want to add to that part of our work is kind of like we're the diet, we're like the I don't know.

Hannah: 14:09

We do like the diet recovery, where it's like okay, you've been through this, you've been through that, and then now you're sitting across from me and we're going to heal the relationship to food.

Michelle: 14:18

So yeah, yeah, it's just yeah.

Michelle: 14:20

And it is a bummer because most times when I feel like I finally do get in contact with someone, it is when they're at their like diet rock bottom and they've done the launch, like this is, what I always hear is like I've done everything, I've done every diet, I've done everything under the sun, and I'm like, yeah, I'm not surprised because that's like how it goes.

Michelle: 14:38

You know like we go on. We jump on this hamster wheel of trying this restrictive method and then falling off the wagon and then trying the restrictive method again, but maybe it has a different name and falling off the wagon, and it's all at the same, at the end of the day, the same, where it's about restriction in order to help you lose weight, in order to help you feel better about yourself, in order to help you finally be happy. And that's really this like narrative that we've bought and that we're totally and completely sold on is that if we just were able to lose the weight, we'll be happy, and so then food ends up being our means to make that happen. But it's so rare that women really, without somebody else telling them that they, come to a place where they realize that that's not working for them. They just blame themselves every time, and I think that's what I always like doing these different diet reviews that I've done on like noom and.

Michelle: 15:36

Weight Watchers and Optuvia and intermittent fasting and keto and I've done a lot of. It's like. At the end of the day, women who have done those things always end up telling me that they failed them. They never think that the diet failed the woman, right? They just think or a man? I just work with women, so I always talk in terms of like women, but they just always think that they are the reason that it didn't work. Well, it worked until I had vacation, or I just didn't have enough willpower or whatever.

Michelle: 16:06

And it's like, if you can't do the thing when you're on vacation, then it didn't work for you. I'm sorry to say. If you gained the weight back at any point in time, it didn't work for you. You got to stop lying to yourself and saying that it did work, otherwise you're going to keep going back. And that's the thing that I've learned through, or that just continues to be shown to me through these different like diet reviews, is that the diets don't work. They just don't.

Michelle: 16:33

I always try to give it the best, like, most clean slate possible, like all right, I'm going to try and be so unbiased when I look into this one, and then I just end up by the end of it I'm like ripping it to. But I tried, I really tried, to give you a fair shot, noom or optivir or whatever it is. But you've just continued to prove me right that all you want is people's money. You just want them to be a repeat customer, and that's so different from what we do, right, where we're like we don't want you to be a repeat customer, otherwise we didn't do our jobs. It's so different.

Hannah: 17:08

Yeah, and it's hard too, because we see the clients who are coming to us in those after trying that, after trying all of these various things, right. So I'm sure it's really hard to try to do an unbiased diet review.

Michelle: 17:22

It is. It is admittedly.

Hannah: 17:25

Yeah, yeah, and I feel like this is kind of where I've softened my edges over time is like I think that people can learn things from different ways of eating and there are. But there are risks, right, there are real, real risks. And of starting a diet, right, some people are going to be okay, short term maybe, like I think diets do work in the short term if you follow them. But that's the problem, right Is like then you're following like this really rigid way of eating that isn't going to work on vacation and won't work long term and and isn't support, maybe it's not supportive of your mental health either. Because a lot of these plans, diets, whatever, they're so focused on the numbers or you know they're they're not looking at teaching you how to relate to your food. They're just like teaching you that set of rules. But I but I I do feel like the part that's missing from a lot of those plans is any kind of like in the individualization part right.

Hannah: 18:25

Where it's like taking that individual and and customizing it to them, and so I mean there's a lots of problems with with them. That's just some of them, but I think I used to think all of them were trash. And then now I'm kind of like, well, some of them may have, there's some valid things to be learned from some of them, but I but still I'm like, uh nah. But yeah, it depends on it does depend on the person, but but it's. How are you thinking about it?

Michelle: 18:53

It's like, are you?

Hannah: 18:53

thinking like, oh, this is the way I'm going to eat, because you know you did some on the autoimmune one.

Michelle: 18:59

Oh yeah, aip diet, which that's that's not a long.

Hannah: 19:02

That's not a. Is that a long term?

Michelle: 19:03

That was a protocol, so it's just like if you're doing the thought map or something.

Hannah: 19:07

Right. So like there is a place to some of these ways of eating, especially like if it's with the mentality of okay, this is to learn about myself, this is like shorter term, they can be used as a tool in the toolbox for some for some people, but there's always going to be that risk anytime you're doing something restrictive. It does make it a lot harder to have a good relationship with food if you have these food restrictions and rules, it just does.

Michelle: 19:32

Yeah, it just does. Yeah, I agree there's always exceptions to the overarching Like okay in general diets, probably we can agree they don't work long term, but there's exceptions, right, there's. Every now and then somebody is like I actually really loved this experience and I'm also getting to a point now where I can be like you know what. I'm okay that that can be a possibility. You know, when I was like a young, like just in the field RD of like no, diets are the devil and always are. Like if you try this, you're, you know, completely wrong and I don't think that's helpful either.

Michelle: 20:07

It's not helpful to fight extremism with extremism. It's helpful to be like you know what? What can you learn from this? What can this do for you? And the reality is like a lot of times people have gained little nuggets of helpful things after doing these diets, even if they didn't end up doing them long term. Maybe they learned to eat vegetables in a new way that they hadn't been able to otherwise, and that's a positive thing. We can celebrate that. Or they learned that they can do harder things than they thought they could. You know, like there's definitely. It's just all about perspective, right, in terms of how you continue to move forward from these things.

Hannah: 20:47

Yeah, yeah. I think that our human brains really like, like this, this set way of thinking, like just give me a set of rules, like even within two, to beating. It's like these are the 10 guidelines, and, and, and.

Hannah: 21:01

I think we can get kind of narrow focused on yeah, blinders on of like, okay, this is how and it's comforting to us to think that there's a framework, especially early on in the process, whether we are as dietitians or we're as eaters. I think it's, it's reassuring of like okay, I'm just like following this framework and I'm going to just follow it. But I think, having that ability to think critically about it and to say, like, how is this impacting me, what am I bringing to this and and, like you said, what can I learn from this process, I think that's where that's the part that's really important and that's the part I think that can be lost in in this process.

Michelle: 21:45

Yeah, absolutely. I was talking to another dietitian about this too, and we were talking more about the health at every size space and how like it can be for somebody that needs to have a radical change in their relationship with food and their body. It is actually so comforting to be to now embrace this new ideology and to have because I think they've got their own like I don't know if it's principles or what, but they've got their own stuff and so to now just be like you know what, now I'm going to embrace all of this because it's outlined and it's to the point and it's like black and white. It can be so comforting and also, to give it credit, so helpful. When somebody is so used to body blaming and hating how they look and trying everything in their power to change it, it can be very like healing and it's usually an important step to get to a place where you're just you know if somebody doesn't know what health at every size is and they'll have to go.

Michelle: 22:46

This is the whole other podcast. In fact, I have an episode on it, but it's. It's very healing to just get to a new place of you know, my body is. My weight is never the problem.

Michelle: 22:57

But what we do see as well in that is that now we've just gone from one extreme to the other and now we've got this new like black and white way of thinking, and you know, this is more for the professionals in this space, like Hannah and I.

Michelle: 23:12

It just ends up being not helpful for for people long term because it's, you know, it turns into this big battle of like good versus bad again and that's not helpful for meeting clients where we're at just like we've been talking about. Everybody needs an individualized approach, and so how can we take parts of that and and we inclusivity and being very empathetic towards everybody and apply it in a way that is not black and white again? You know, and that's, I think, a really big point of tension that professionals are experiencing lately, especially as I think that, like body positivity and weight inclusivity really had a big upswing maybe a couple of years ago, and now we're starting to see a little bit of the effects of it and the effects of people like policing each other and, you know, shaming each other's thoughts and opinions about health and weight and stuff, and now we're starting to see some people like you know, what I don't.

Michelle: 24:11

This doesn't feel good either.

Hannah: 24:13

Yeah, I mean when, when I teach my nutrition class and I do introduce these concepts of like our weight does not define our health, like this is and this is a general nutrition class that that anyone in the college can take People are so amazed. They're like what? And I give examples when we talk about it and we, you know it's a science based course and so it's embedded within the science, so I it's it's a way for them to critically look at that part of it, and I think that's some of where things get lost is if, if, if weight inclusivity is landing in the same system that the diet culture is in, where there's a right and a wrong.

Hannah: 24:54

And if you believe this in the right way, then you're in, and if you say something wrong, you step on a trap, you're out instead of out immediately. It's like. It's like it's where the space does not feel like it is inclusive actually and no one can ask questions. It can be really off putting I think to a lot of people when that's the. That's what the space has become over time. A lot of the bigger spaces online and stuff.

Michelle: 25:23

I was going to say I don't know if you saw this, but Linda O'Bacon actually like retired from the health at every size field because there was so much like in one day I think Linda had a conversation that I mean your interpretation of it is up to you, but Linda was very shamed for that and Lindo is the pinnacle researcher of health at every size Like you could not find somebody that's more in support of it and was literally cut off from that community and like the blink of an eye. And so Lindo actually sent out this retirement letter and everything. And it was because Lindo was like I can't be a part of this anymore, it's too toxic. And I just think like I bring that up because if somebody who was so gung-ho about that side of healthcare and the social justice side of things couldn't take what it's become, that really says something. You know we need to be thinking about how we're carrying this out in the day to day.

Hannah: 26:28

Well, and I think it just shows too, it's so much more about actions than words.

Michelle: 26:34

Yeah, absolutely.

Hannah: 26:36

Where it's like this is someone who has fought and spent their whole career like pioneering and yes, there are other pioneers and there are other communities and cultures that have worked on this and isn't the whole idea that there's room for everyone and yet they've shamed Lindo out of the space completely. I mean, I think that that example kind of shows where things have kind of gone awry with this, where that kind of behavior is part of this community.

Hannah: 27:10

I think that's where a lot of us are kind of like whoa, like we agree with a lot of it. And then there's that part, there's these things that are not quite sitting right with us. You feel like you have to pick a side and we lose the nuance there and we lose the conversation and the gray area and it's like and I think social media incentivizes that no gray area, like it has to. You have like 30 seconds, say your thing and the more, the more angry or controversial you can be right, the more traction it gets.

Hannah: 27:43

So I think some of that is that, but I also have seen it play out. It's playing out in not the social media space. We're in other spaces too, where people are making a lot of judgments about people and assumptions and there is a shaming going on around who can talk and who can't talk in like all of that.

Hannah: 28:03

And so there's feels like a lot of like. There's so much, like you said, if you back out of your echo chamber is like wait a second, why are we? Why are like, why are we making? Why is there all this infighting when, like, there are, there are changes that we need to make and there's a lot of room for improvement in in what? In the work around the food and body and all of that.

Michelle: 28:26

So a great you can't fight social injustice with just more social injustice. Like I remember I was looking at our well known prominent dietitian in the intuitive eating space, who's thin and white, and she has a podcast and I was like checking it out and there was a review on there that was like brutal and I was like you got to be kidding me and it was about how you know, I'm so tired of these thin white dietitians talking about this and and I was like you know what I understand when somebody's like saying something like that, I can understand why can't write. I probably can't understand how they're feeling, but I hear them and I see where they're coming from. But also, are they not just doing the same thing?

Michelle: 29:11

Like, is that not just more discrimination about who can and can't say certain things? And you know, as a thin white dietitian myself who struggled with body dysmorphia my entire life and I even just went through another bout of it after I had my baby that's like you know what I've actually really struggled with my body and I think that all of us have a voice, no matter what, and so it's frustrating to see any voice silenced at all. Right, and I understand the point of social justice is to give voices to those who are otherwise not able to have much of one, and I think that's beautiful, you know, and we should be doing that for everybody.

Hannah: 29:48

Yeah, and there's a lot of pain and anger when someone you know wants to leave a review like that. It's like I see that and I understand that some of that is, you know, through things that have happened in the past to maybe their community or how they felt, and but then are we just perpetuating more pain Because they're writing a review for a human right who's going to read that? And so we're just like we're perpetuating these cycles of pain and inflicting it on someone else. Like how does does that help you feel better about? Like like tearing them down? Like isn't there room enough? Isn't there enough work? Don't we want more people? Don't want to be inviting more people in, and especially people who maybe are confused and don't understand? And it's like come in, come on in and let's get closer. You know you have different views. Let's have a respectful conversation about it. Like your values are different than mine, okay. Like bring that in.

Michelle: 30:48

Oh, you have a different experience, bring that in 100%, and when there's like, when there's this policing or shaming on on how somebody looks, just because they're not a minority, it's like, well, let's think about long term. What happens here, right, let's say that person reads that review and they're like you know what? I should close up shop. I should stop talking about this. Now we've lost somebody's voice who actually was helping so many people, so many people, and I mean, what have we done there? We've silenced somebody from helping others. Like, is that helpful? Is that actually helpful for the long-term vision of everybody having space at the table? No, so, anyway, those are my thoughts on that.

Michelle: 31:37

Yeah, I think what you said is helpful too. That person's clearly in pain. They've obviously had something happen in their life that is producing this anger that they feel strongly enough to you know lash out about, and so I think it's so important for anybody that's working in the online space, no matter who you are, to remember that that negative comments are coming from hurt people, and they don't know you personally. So you just got to like remember the long-term vision, and I'm preaching this to myself honestly, because I've had people be unkind.

Michelle: 32:10

And that's just how it is right. And on online space you got to remember why you do what you do and focus on that vision.

Hannah: 32:16

So yeah, and when you're working with your clients, I feel like that's when you're like, oh, it's so alive, like it's just like, oh, this is so energizing. So then, if there are those like people you know you're seeing the negative parts of this movement it's like, okay, well, that's the shadow side. There's going to be a shadow side to most things, and there it is.

Hannah: 32:39

And so getting back to the light and the joy and the connections that are there. But yeah, and not that anyone who is making mean comments might be listening to this. Maybe they are, but I always am like is that helping?

Hannah: 32:54

When you write that, or you're responding to someone's post with this vitriol and blaming them and saying they don't, they haven't examined their privilege, and all that Is that. Is that helping you? Is that helping that person? No, like we don't change or evolve from a place of shame and judgment and loss of community Because, right, if I close up shot, it's like okay, well, there, I've lost my community, maybe my job, like, and now it's like okay, and then we're in a much worse place.

Michelle: 33:27

Yeah.

Hannah: 33:27

You know, and so.

Michelle: 33:29

Yeah, exactly.

Hannah: 33:30

That's always the question. It's like does that, does that help? And I see no. I mean can? I've never heard an argument where that does. Yeah, we really showed them, we've held them accountable, it's like no, you didn't.

Hannah: 33:44

You made them more mad at and more you've lost them even farther. It's such an electric topic that hasn't been able to have any that I've seen any like respectful discourse for people who have varying values, and not even from the two extremes, but I'm saying even two people that believe in the weight, inclusive care and believe in the health at every size tenants like it's. It's not something you observe online or even on podcasts.

Hannah: 34:14

A lot of times it's, they're like oh, I'm not talking to that person, you know. Or it's like this, where it's like even when we are just having this conversation about it, in the back of my mind I have this fear of like and wanting to self-censor myself, of like even expressing any kind of criticism, and to me that's a problem. To feel like this isn't. We don't live in a time where we can have respectful conversations, discourse freely. It, yeah it's it makes me concerned.

Michelle: 34:51

It is. Yeah, I hear you and I, yeah, it is. From a professional standpoint, it's not going to produce growth if you can't have respectful conversations. It's just not. Also, from a human standpoint, if you want that human to think a certain way or see things the way that you do, then shouting your opinion at them and telling them they're wrong 9.9 out of 10 times is not going to, not going to get them where you want them to be. You know, and and I think we've all been guilty of that at points, I know I have for sure Right, I was doing the right thing and and talking loudly about something, or, you know, pointing out somebody's flaws, and we think that that's helpful in our distorted ways. But you do have to consider the consequences of that and then start to reconsider your approach. You know, because we're human and we're learning, and if there's not grace for people learning, then what are? Literally? What are we doing? What are we doing?

Hannah: 36:05

And I think that's part of why you and I wanted to have this part of our conversation, because that is so important to learning and growth, and pulling people in is being, like you know, actually being welcoming actually actually, you know, having space for people to explore, and yet online is probably not the safest place to do that.

Hannah: 36:30

But even just saying like that it's an important part of the process is not becoming so one-sided in your views, like like being open to varying arguments on the other side. Like like listening even and not, you know, being open and because you're right. It's like what is the reaction if we're just screaming at each other? It's like, well one, you're losing people who are like, oh no, I'm going, I'm, I'm going to go, I'm not, I don't know where I'm going, but I'm not going to be aligned with these people.

Michelle: 37:03

I'm turned off by this Right.

Hannah: 37:05

Right, so they're going to either go somewhere else or be quiet, and be, afraid and and not speak up at all, and I think a lot of people are landing in that camp where and I will say that I I feel like I really much resonate with that, where it's like through them. What I've seen and and conversations I've had with people, interactions I've had with people, is is very much like okay. So what I'm learning is like you can't, you can't ask questions to learn and you can't.

Hannah: 37:35

There may be there, and even though they say there's room for everyone, there's really not in certain spaces. There's not a welcoming room for everyone kind of vibe at all.

Michelle: 37:45

So again it's it's how.

Hannah: 37:46

It's not a safe space To use that term. Right, right.

Michelle: 37:53

Yeah, Absolutely yeah, but maybe, and how, taken out of context, they can be too, which is again like your point on social media you get 30 seconds to capture someone's attention and get them on your side and you're, you're done. And that's why I love the podcast format, because it's you get to go into the nuances of stuff and you get to talk through stuff. But even that, you know, it's still only like what have we been talking for like an hour? You know a little over an hour, and and there's so much more to be said here.

Michelle: 38:18

So, I think you know, take it as a green assault and anything that that you hear us discuss, or anybody else really like apply what's helpful for you in your life and and continue to go your own way, you know.

Hannah: 38:32

Leave the rest. If it doesn't apply, leave the rest. Use discernment, you know that's what what we can do. We could talk, we could talk forever, but we are going to have to wrap it up.

Michelle: 38:42

I gotta get some lunch. My needs, my needs, are coming up.

Hannah: 38:47

Yeah, good.

Michelle: 38:48

Oh, it's so good to chat though. Thanks for chatting today, hannah, and yeah, I love that we got to do a little conjoined episode here.

Hannah: 38:56

Yeah, Thank you so much for sharing your morning midday with me.

Michelle: 39:02

Yeah thank you, it's been so fun and I can't wait to hear, yeah, the feedback on this. If you're listening to this and you have thoughts for us, we'd love to hear your thoughts. You can reach out to me personally at Yates Nutrition on Instagram and I don't know about you, hannah, how you prefer people to contact you.

Hannah: 39:18

Yeah, yeah, Nutrition Insight Project. I always welcome feedback. I really appreciate you, Michelle, and I'm so glad that we've connected and become friends, me too, me too. Thanks again.