#94 - Stop Saying Sorry with Jason Byam

My oldest brother Jason is the philosopher of our family. He's thought a lot about why we all need to stop saying sorry and what we need to start saying instead.

Here's the link for Jason's exterior lighting, Glowstone Lighting:
https://glowstonelighting.com/ 

https://jamelynstephan.com

https://jamelynstephan.com/meet-with-me/

https://www.instagram.com/jamelyn_stephan_coaching/

jamelyn@jamelynstpehan.com

Transcript

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I'm Jim Lynn Stephan. And this is what to wanted. Episode number 94, stop saying, sorry with Jason Byam. Welcome to want to want it a podcast for women of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints who are ready to ignite not only their sexual desire, but all of their desires to create a more fulfilling life and marriage. I'm jamielynn Stephan. I'm a certified life coach, a wife, and a mother of seven children. I'm excited to share my personal journey to desire with you and teach you how to desire more as well Okay. Welcome to Want2Wandit everybody. I'm so excited today because I have an awesome guest on my show today, my oldest brother, Jason Byam is joining me today. Um, Jason is what I would call the philosopher of our family. He thinks a lot about things deeply about things, always questioning, always kind of saying, what do you think about this? Would you agree, Jason? Are you a philosopher? I would like to think I was a philosopher, but truthfully, I'm more of just. Probably more confused about how things are or why they're that way than anything else. But yeah, phosphor's fine. I'll take that. Thank you. Yeah. I think everyone would agree in our family. So Jason, just tell my audience a little bit about you, your family, your life, the things you do. Well, I, uh, have two kids, one living at home, one out in the world there being an adult. I've got, uh, I grew up in a family with you, six kids in the family, two parents that were just struggling to keep things going and, you know, tread water to stay up, you know, stay afloat. And, uh. Yeah, it's been, I've had a pretty amazing life. I've been very lucky in my life to have great things happen. So, um, you know, having the time to sit and philosophize probably is a luxury some people don't have. So, yeah. Yes, yes. Jason and my youngest brother, Brady own. It's an exterior company, and they own a lighting company, Glowstone Lighting, which does exterior lights. You know, for people who don't want to put up their Christmas lights, these are your people because they're there all the time. This is our time of year. This is our time of year for that. Exactly. And so Jason does spend time in his truck driving about, so he has time to philosophize in his truck. Yeah. When I'm on the phone, I'm thinking deeply about things that no one else thinks about. Yes. Yes. Okay. It is what it is. Yeah. So in the summer, I get a phone call from Jason saying, I have an idea you need to do for your podcast. And I was like, okay, tell me all about this idea that I need to do for my podcast. But by the time we were finished talking about it, I was like, you actually need to come on and talk about this. Cause I actually think it's brilliant. Um, but I really love your perspective. So he calls me and he says, you need to talk about telling people to stop saying, sorry. And I was like, Oh, I have to know more about this. So tell me why this came about with me. So my wife gets cancer a few years ago and is laid up at home, obviously taking her medicine and having a radiation and, you know, all sorts of other things going on. And at one point, after a couple of years, she says to me, I'm sorry you have to do the laundry and I'm sorry you have to clean the kitchen. And I don't know what it was. Maybe it was just like. Years of her being sick and me sort of feeling like just the burden of business and husband and everything else. I don't know, but it just triggered me and suddenly I was like almost angry. I went to the kitchen thinking to myself like, what is going on with her? Why would she say I'm sorry? And I started thinking like, what was she actually trying to say? Because she can't mean I apologize. I have cancer. Like, that doesn't make any sense. Um, and she can't mean, Oh, you married this girl, and now that girl is sick. Because we've been married 30 years. Like, at some point, both of us have been sick. Like, it's just how it is. And I came away realizing she wanted to say thank you. She just wanted to say, hey, thank you. I know it's a burden, I know it's a hassle, but I really appreciate the fact that you do it. And so I went back to her and I said, that's it. No more saying I'm sorry, because it makes me mad. When you say it, like honestly, like it triggers me when you say it and I just need you instead to say thank you, thank you for doing those things because honestly, that's what you're trying to say anyway. You're not trying to say I'm at fault for your predicament and I feel terrible about it and you're stuck now in this situation of no control over because I have all the control over this. If I didn't want to do it, I would just not do it. Right. So just say thank you. And so there's been some other instances that have come along where she'll just naturally say, Oh, I'm sorry. And I say, stop saying I'm sorry, please just say thank you. You know, thanks for being my husband. Thanks for taking this on. Thanks for whatever it was. And I began to think about it more and more. I began to practice it in my work. I would have customers that were calling me and they'd be very angry, angry about something. And my first thought always was, I need to say, I'm sorry. How can we fix that? What can we do? But instead of sort of saying, thank you for calling, you know, thank you for bringing this up. Thank you for, you know, bringing this to our attention. And I was shocked at the effect it had on these angry customers that were calling me. They were suddenly not angry. They were more willing to work with us easier to work with, you know, about whatever was going on in their life that they were so mad about the call. Just by showing some gratitude for their taking the initiative to reach out to us and for their bringing this to our attention if they're being patient while we wait to get it fixed. Suddenly it became a totally different experience with them. So I started using it with my son. I started using it with my business partners. I started working with everybody I met. I just stopped saying I'm sorry. Yeah. And I quickly realized like. When I say, I'm sorry. What am I trying to say? You know, like Jenny, when she was sick and she says, I'm sorry, the laundry, what is she really trying to say? She's trying to say, I'm so thankful you're here to take care of this. And that meant so much more to me than I'm sorry. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So you called me and then right after that. My 15 year olds having kind of a meltdown, which was kind of normal. And, but, you know, as I'm talking to her, she's like, I'm just so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm acting this way. And so, and, and I actually am starting to feel like irritated too. Like I'm starting to feel like, yeah, this feels like a burden a little bit the way that you're acting. And so I stopped her and I said, you know, uncle Jason just called and shared this idea with me about. Stopping saying sorry. And she's like, well, what am I supposed to say? And I was like, well, you could just say thanks for listening to me, mom. And I am not kidding. She started doing that. Like, she was just practicing and I would kind of remind her it changed everything for me. I don't know if it changed anything for her. But like, for me, it was just like, it suddenly felt like, oh, like, of course, this is where I want to be. And this is what I want to be doing as her mom, instead of like, I'm trapped with this child that is Acting nonsensical and and then when she's like, I'm just so sorry. I'm so sorry. I almost feel like you're right. I feel sorry for me too right now. It's funny because I feel bad for my wife because I think about these things in the truck. Like he says, I'm driving or at night when I'm laying awake and my poor wife has never given this one second of thought. And I'm saying to her, stop saying you're sorry. And just say that you and she's saying, why would I do that? Like, how does that make this better? And I'm like, it makes everything better. And so, you know, we've had long conversations now about like, When I'm a kid and I'm playing with some friends or playing with some cousins and I hit one of them in the face because we're playing with sticks, we're kids, dumb kids. My mom comes out and says, you say you're sorry. And then I say, I'm sorry. And then she looks at him and says, now you play nice too, because he said he's sorry. So somehow there's like some responsibility on this other kid who got hit in the face by a stick, maybe by accident, maybe not, but he doesn't know. I don't know. Even so. I'm just like, wow. Like maybe we're teaching our kids that I'm sorry. Is this like how you respond to anything? And once someone says, I'm sorry, your responsibility now is to say it's fine. It's gone. And both of us, like in the movies to tug and we walk off, like it says, but in the reality is I didn't mean I was sorry unless I accidentally did hit the face and it felt sorry. But he certainly may not feel like I'm sorry, like that, like, he might be like, you hit face on purpose, you know, like, what are you talking about? And why should he have any responsibility right now that I've said, I'm sorry, like, you know, like, yes, we talk about forgiveness and I do think forgiveness is important. And I mean, I'm not wanting to minimize forgiveness, but to teach kids at the earliest of ages, you always say you're sorry. And you always have to just be the bigger man now and walk away because he said he's sorry. And that's how it is. Yeah. Well, it doesn't create this idea of this happy ending we see in the movies. But. If I took my kid aside, and I, of course, I only have an 18 year old, so it's hard now, but I'm going to keep trying to do this. Yeah, we took my kid aside when something like that happened. And I said, why don't you tell Jason something you're very thankful for about him? And the kid was like, well, I can't, you know, like, well, are you thankful that he's here to play with you? Are you thankful he's your cousin? Are you thankful for the gifts he got you for your birthday last year? Are you thankful for the time he spends? Watching movies with you or yeah. Yeah. You know, like, and maybe the other kid is like, okay, I get it. Like, you know, we're friends and he hit me in the face by accident or on purpose, whatever it was, but it's over now and we move on and that's great. And that's the end of it. I don't know. I want to, I want to try this. I haven't got young kids to try it with, but I just hate this idea that when my wife says, I'm sorry, that now it's my responsibility to just say, it's okay. Right. I'm prepared to take this on because I'm such a strong and wonderful kind person who's just, you know, altruistic in every way. Yeah. But the truth is. When she says, thank you. I'm very easy, very easy for me to say, you're welcome. Like, great. And I feel good. I feel good. Right. Like I'm walking by, like, she appreciates the work I'm doing. She sees that it's a burden, you know, um, and so for me, it's so much better. Yeah. So it kind of. It kind of makes me think a little bit about, um, when sometimes, like when I was in labor, I would always apologize to the nurses like over and over and I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, right? And it's like, I, I like feel like I have to apologize for existing. I feel like I have to apologize for taking space in the room, for giving them work, which is their job, but like the whole time, right? And, and they're trying to like reassure me, it's okay that you take space here, right? And so it's kind of like what you're saying. It's this idea of like, sometimes when we're apologizing, it's because of our own feelings about ourselves. And we are looking to someone to say, and I don't know, I'm not, I wasn't in Jenny's head when she's saying, I'm so sorry you have to do the laundry. But there is a part of almost like, I'm sorry that I'm like, that I actually impact you and you, and then it's the responsibility of the person to say. Now I'm supposed to say it's okay that you impact me, right? It's kind of this dance we do. I think that's a really good way to put it is this I'm taking up space and I'm in some way unable to compensate for that and I just feel like sick. Like I've often wondered to myself, you know, when I say I'm sorry and it's done properly and it's in an appropriate place. What am I trying to say? It's almost like, oh, I spilled milk at the table. I'm sorry. I spilled milk. And I'll help you clean it up. And I know this is the, you know, I've made a mess. And so I, I do that. And, but when I do that, it's an accident that had happened and there's no intention to have it happen again. Like I'm never going to sit at the table with intention of I'm going to knock that glass of milk over. Right. So sorry, makes sense because it means I'm going to make a better effort in the future to not have that happen again. I understand the burden it is now and the responsibility I take in that and let's move ahead. Like, I'm sorry. And everybody at the end is happier because I said, I'm sorry, you know, like if I knocked it over and I said to them, Oh, thank you for serving me the milk that I just knocked over. That may not work, right? But I'm sorry. I didn't mean to knock the milk over. Let me help you clean it up. And we get things cleaned up. Even as a little kid, if we just say to them, this is the appropriate time to say you're sorry because you don't ever intend to do this again. Right. Right. Right. But if it is. I'm, you know, having a discussion with my, my wife about, let's say like desire, like you're always talking about desire and these things, but you're having that, we're having that conversation by wife. And one of us is saying, you know, I'm in the mood, you're not in the mood. And the other one is saying, I'm sorry, I'm not in the mood. Well, that maybe is the wrong time to say, I'm sorry, because again, it's not, you know, like. It's not like this is going to change just by saying, I'm sorry. Like instead if it was like more of like a, Hey, look, I thank you for finding me desirable. Thank you for one. And I understand I want to change this. Yes. And I'm listening to these podcasts and I'm getting this coaching and I'm doing the things that I need to do to try and make sure that, um, you know, I can build up my desire. It's not that I don't find you. Attractive or anything. I'm just so tired at the day. Why don't we try going to bed a little bit earlier tonight and see if that, if that helps, you know, like, yeah, yeah, that actually reminds me because this is something that I see sometimes it's, it's sorry in a different way where it's almost like a pushing off of responsibility. Right. Where it's like, um, you'll have, yeah, you'll have a husband come to a wife and with a real genuine concern, like this, this is hard for me in our marriage. And she says, I'm just so sorry. I can't be a perfect wife. Yeah. Well, yeah, it, it's, it's, it's really saying, I'm sorry, like it's too bad that you have such high expectations of me, and by just saying, I'm sorry I can't be perfect. It pushes off any responsibility to actually look and say, is there something my husband is sharing with me right now that is valid about me? Is there some way that I actually need to look at this as uncomfortable as is as it is? And say like, he's right. I actually could do that better because I don't have to be a perfect wife, but I actually owe it to him and to myself to be a better wife, like, well, I just to say, yeah, to try and get better. There's just no idea of I'm today. I'm gonna be a little bit better than yesterday. And we fall back sometimes. But, um, you know, I watched my 18 year old and I think, you know, at 17, He got a job, he had to work for like, you know, 20 hours a week, it was just murdering him. He just couldn't take it. It was just the end of his life. You know what I mean? Like, and he was depressed and he had anxiety about work and it was just the worst thing ever. Turns 18. It came responsibility for some of his bills, paying for his gas, paying for his insurance on his car, things like that. And all of a sudden it was like, I can't get enough work. Like I can't have enough hours because I've got bills that's got to be paid. And you know, like I watched this kid grow up and I think, okay, getting better every day. It's crazy. And as long as in my marriage, as long as in my work, as long as in my relationships with others, I'm trying to get better every day saying, I'm sorry, when it's really more appropriate to say, thank you for understanding, you know, or thank you for being patient with me, or thank you for, you know, taking care of that situation, whatever that was, makes way more sense and leaves us both at the end feeling like I showed gratitude. I feel better for that. I, he got gratitude and feels like, Oh, I'm appreciated and understood, which is a big thing. I do feel like when you say thank you, it needs to be, I understand the burden of having to do the laundry and having to do the dishes, um, all the time and that just falling on you. So thank you so much. You know, like suddenly it doesn't feel to me like. Oh, this is just your responsibility and, and I'm sitting here to take up space and I'm the worst, you know? Mm-Hmm. Like no self pity involved. Yes. No. You know? Yeah. Yes. And that's exactly where I think my frustration comes, especially as I'm talking about my daughter, kind of. It's like there's just so much self pity and I'm so sorry. And it feels like now I have to just like try and build you up, when in reality I'm just frustrated because Yeah. Of the way this conversation feels now instead of being like, listen. We all take up space, and we are meant to. We are valuable humans, we are meant to be here, and we are going to impact people. That is the truth. Well, it's something else, too, that just comes up all the time is, like, people will say things like, well, I felt so ashamed about this thing, but then when I ask them, did you feel ashamed or did you feel embarrassed? You know, like I spilled milk. That's not shame, right? But people maybe equate that same feeling of, Oh my gosh, like this overwhelming. I just spilt the milk, but I got this overwhelming sense of guilt now and I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And almost like the shame response when the truth is they're just embarrassed and if they could recognize that sometimes I'm going to feel this way when I'm embarrassed, it's not shame. It's not guilt. It's nothing like that at all. It doesn't need to be followed up by, I'm sorry. It just needs to be like, Oh, I'm so embarrassed. Thank you so much for helping me take care of this. I really didn't mean to knock that over. You know, and just recognizing what embarrassment feels like, because I do think in my life, especially I have struggled with what's the difference between being embarrassed and feeling shame. Right. So I, when I was a little kid, I peed the bed till I was like 14. Yeah. And, um, it was very embarrassing. And I would hear stories where other kids peeing the bed and it would make me cry. Me too. You know, like, so then I'm, I'm 25 now and I'm working at a television station. And one of the topics on our morning program is a doctor talking about bedwetting. And I'm not kidding. I was just. overwhelmed by it. Like as I'm sitting directing the show, I'm feeling overwhelmed by bedwetting and it felt so much shame and so much guilt about this thing. And then the doctor says, kids feel so embarrassed by this. And I thought to myself, Oh my gosh, that's what I'm feeling. I'm just feeling embarrassed, right? This isn't shame and guilt. Like I'm just feeling embarrassed that this happened. And as soon as that happened, everything went away after the show, we're all talking about it. And I say, you know, I peed the bed till I was 14 years old or 12 years old. And I was so embarrassed by it. And then he talked about it and I feel so much better about it. And then someone else in our cast pops up saying me too. And I was like, I was almost crying when he was talking. And then at the end, I was so happy. And that's exactly how I felt. Right. Yeah, yeah, that actually is fascinating because I think I've said sorry to mom a million times for wetting the bed so many years instead of just saying thank you so much for changing my bed and washing my sheets every day for 12 years. No one helping me yeah helping me take care of it like right and then honestly like It was more, it was actually embarrassment that I was feeling, right? I, I had translated into shame and I think shame is very destructive and does horrible things to people, uh, especially to their like future development. You know, like everybody talks about this trauma and I think that there's lots of shame around trauma, but the truth is if I have, if I've confused embarrassment with shame, it can have the same effect. Right. And so, you know, I think it's really important now when I talk to my specifically my 18 year old. And he talks about being ashamed of something or being like feeling so guilty about something also down safety. I feel more just about embarrassed. This happened or more embarrassed that this is the situation, right? Oh, yeah, though. That makes more sense. You know, like, yeah, it makes more sense. Yeah, when he was singled out a grad as, you know, being some big. Wonderful person in the school and won some award. He actually felt bad. He came after the thing, you know, he was just like, I really felt bad because there's so many people there that did great things and I know them. And then I win this award and I'm like, I'm better than you. And I thought what I want people to think and. So I just said to him at that point, look, what you're feeling is just embarrassment. You're just embarrassed because they singled you out. This is not a shame thing. You don't feel shame about doing good things and being rewarded for that. You're just embarrassed that they singled you out in front of all these other people. That's all. Yes. And you know, I think it helps him. Yeah. So I do think we have to look at how sometimes when I'm saying, I'm sorry, it's coming from that point of. I'm ashamed of what happened or I'm feeling really guilty about what happened, but the truth is I'm not. I'm just embarrassed. I'm embarrassed. Yeah. And even that's a really good example of kind of almost like I feel like I have to apologize for living because I have to apologize almost for the fact that I was singled out instead of just being able to go to that place of like. I'm really grateful that I was able to do those things and was recognized being able to be able to say to your friends. I was so embarrassed when he called me up there because I know everybody else has done some amazing stuff, but geez, it was sure nice, you know, and that's it. Yes. Right. Yes. And instead of being like, oh, I feel so sick that I wanted you didn't win. And I know you did some great things that a man like, you know, just, yes, just doing all this pressure to somehow like degrade himself because. He didn't deserve it when really he just was embarrassed that he got called up there to do it. So yeah, so good. Okay, I think the thing that I love almost the most that you've pointed out today is the idea that when you say sorry, when you kind of should, if we can use that word, or like when it's really appropriate. Both of you leave that interaction feeling better or at least on a road to feeling better compared to when you're just apologizing for living kind of or so sorry you have to do that for me and neither of you actually feel better you feel any better you feel bad because you're filled with this remorse and guilt and He feels better, she feels bad because now there's some responsibility thrust onto them to just accept this apology and lift up and be better. And that's not how it's going to be. So, um, I do think, yeah, if, if there was any, especially around your topic of desire, like, if there was any advice around this thing is start looking at. Like these situations that come up as embarrassing, more embarrassing than shameful, you know, like, and also sort of looking at them more as how can I respond in a way that shows gratitude to my spouse who wants, finds me attractive and has this higher level desire for me to show gratitude to them in a way that at the end of that conversation, both of us leave feeling like, okay. They understand me. They're grateful for me. And we're both happier at the end of the set at the end of that conversation. It's like, yes, instead of like, I'm so sorry. And they're like, yeah, I'm sorry for me too. And, and the wife is like, I feel wretched about myself. Right. It's it, it is so. Yeah, I love it. I love kind of the idea. Like if at the end of apologizing, you don't feel good, you probably said sorry when you ought to have shown some gratitude. Thank you. Yeah. Imagine this conversation. You've been married 30 years. You had this conversation for 30 years. Yeah. And then suddenly one of you just pops in and says, instead of I'm sorry, thank you. Yeah. I understand that this can be frustrating. I understand. I don't want it to be this way. And I do want to change it. I'm watching these podcasts and I'm going to this coaching and I'm doing, you know, I'm reading these books. I'm trying everything I can to sort of get myself into a head space where this makes sense for both of us. But thank you. And suddenly a wrench sort of this conversation you've had 30 times changes the conversation. Just like, yeah, completely because you've changed the cycle of it. It's so good. It's so, so good. I love it. I love it. Thank you so, so much for getting on and explaining this and talking about this. You're very brave. Come on. Well, we're gonna, we're gonna keep thinking about it. There's lots to think about. I know. That's the thing. So anyone who's listening to this, Take up the conversation. Talk to people about it. Think about it. I would love to hear if there's things you don't agree with, like, send me an email, message me on Instagram, anything. And let's just kind of, yeah, keep the conversation going and just talking about, like, do we need to stop saying sorry? Are we actually saying it too much? And, and honestly, I, what I see a lot of in myself even is I'm willing to apologize to the nurse in delivery, but I don't want to actually say sorry for the thing I should probably just say sorry for. I can't swallow my pride to do that. Yeah. And maybe that's where my work needs to be is learning to say, really getting courageous to say sorry and the appropriate places. So yeah. Yeah. And it's hard to say thank you when you're feel embarrassed. Yeah. It's like, you know, like it's way easier to be, I'm sorry, like, Oh my gosh. Because you, like I said, embarrassment can feel like shame. And so it's easy to say, I'm sorry, just spit it out. But the truth is I want everybody just to try it. Just whenever, any moment you feel like saying, I'm sorry, just say, thank you first, see how it feels. And then if you realize this is the wrong time, then go to, I'm sorry. But if you think, no, actually that's not bad. Like I see the thing that's going on here. I do appreciate it. And you might be shocked. Yeah. The difference it makes. Yes, I think so. It's taking yourself out of a victim mentality. It's stopping looking at other people like they're victims of you, right? And it's just kind of, yeah, being able to say, okay, I just feel embarrassed here and that's okay. And I can show some gratitude and yeah. Okay. So Jason, if there's anyone who actually would like to have permanent lights on their home, is there a way that they can find you and get ahold of you? Go to GlowstoneLighting. com, T L O W, StoneLighting. com. Just check it out. There's an online form there to fill out if you want an estimate. Let us know how we can help. Yeah, I was putting up my prelit Christmas tree and thinking to myself, this is what glowstone lighting does for people is it's a prelit Christmas tree. You just turn that baby on, it's all ready to go. And that is the best part of, of these lights is it's just, they're there always forever. And any time of the year you can use them for any kind of thing you want. And especially Christmas, which is the time when I'm up, I'm up trying to put the lights up. And. So I'm grateful for them. So yeah, if you guys are interested in permanent lighting on your home, check out glowstoneLighting. com. Yeah. Okay. Thanks for the plug. I appreciate it. Hey, no, that's great. Thanks Jay, so much. See you, Jamie. Yeah. Bye. Thanks for listening today. If you like what you hear on the podcast, and you'd like to learn more, feel free to head over to my website. Jamilin Stephan coaching.com or find me on Instagram or Facebook at Jamileh. step in coaching.