#115 - Sexual Dynamics and Intimacy with Rhonda Farr

Rhonda Farr is a certified life coach who works specifically with high achieving men who want more intimacy in their marriages.

Listen in as we explore:
- the challenges faced by both higher and lower desire partners.

- the need to express personal desires.

- and the importance of owning and sharing individual needs and emotions within a relationship.

If you want a little insight into the mind of your spouse, you'll definitely want to listen in.

Rhonda's Website:
https://rhondafarr.com/

Rhonda's Podcast - The Intimacy Podcast For the Million Dollar Man
https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/rhonda-farr

Find her on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/rhondafarr_coaching/

https://jamelynstephan.com

https://jamelynstephan.com/meet-with-me/

https://www.instagram.com/jamelyn_stephan_coaching/

jamelyn@jamelynstpehan.com

Transcript

0:00

I'm jamielynn Stephan and this is want to want it episode number 115 sexual dynamics and intimacy with Rhonda far. Welcome to want to want it a podcast for women of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints who are ready to ignite not only their sexual desire, but all of their desires to create a more fulfilling life and marriage. I'm jamielynn Stephan. I'm a certified life coach, a wife, and a mother of seven children. I'm excited to share my personal journey to desire with you and teach you how to desire more as well Hello everybody. Welcome to the podcast today. I have a really special guest on today. Her name is Rhonda Farr. She is a coach that certified, I think the same year as I did. I don't know if we were in the same group. I was the August right before you, 2017. We're very close. Very close. Yeah. So, but we have had the opportunity to mastermind together and get to know one another. And Rhonda is, um, really good at talking about intimacy and dynamics in marriage and sex. And so I invited her on today, but tell us a little bit about you, Rhonda, tell us who you coach and about your life and give us an idea of who you are. Thanks, Jamelyn. Um, I am a boy mom. I am the sister of only brothers. I live in a man's world. And I have literally from the first breath I took only brothers, only sons. And now I mostly coach men. I achieving men who want to create more intimacy in their lives, but they aren't quite sure how. So here's how I described them. They've accomplished everything they thought they wanted, everything they thought was going to make them happy, and they still don't feel. Worthy and important and fulfilled inside. And that often has something to do with the way they interact in their relationships. And so I get to hang out with them all day and teach them intimacy skills. And they usually come because of the physical intimacy. But we coach more around emotional connection, emotional intimacy. Yeah, okay, and how does that go with your clients when they're coming for, tell me how to get more sex in my marriage and in the end, they kind of end up with this other, more emotional intimacy. Do they see it or does it take a while to kind of get there? So one thing that I sometimes say on my initial consult with one of my clients is, listen, I know you think this is about sex. And if you just could get more sex, everything would be okay. But I say to them, If you can't at least trust me that it might not be, I'm probably not a good fit for you. Like I need you to at least think that it's possible that there's a different solution to this because something that my clients have learned to do is, um, calm anxiety. Around in their relationship, but also sometimes just with work or life in general They will use sex as like a regulation tool and their wives obviously have to be a participant in that And and then my men we're kind of getting into the meat of this already but then my men will be like she doesn't want me she doesn't choose me and what's happening in this dynamic is She never gets the chance to choose him because she always has to perform a function of regulation for him. And so it gets really twisted fast. And, and so that's why they think the problem is sex, but it's usually a dynamic that can be, um, addressed with some other techniques. Right, right. Okay. Awesome. Now I coach mostly women Rhonda coaches men. I, I don't actually pretend to be an expert even on all women, but I feel like it's easier for me to relate to. Um, but Rhonda also, you know, acknowledges like I work with men, but I don't necessarily, I can't speak for men totally. So in our discussion today, you know, take that for what you will, as you know, we just kind of try and share what we see with our clients. Um, but again, just recognizing we aren't the expert on everybody and not every relationship looks identical. And. Yeah. So take that, take that for, for what it is. Um, so I guess what we wanted to kind of start talking about today was just the dynamic that we see. Um, mostly my clients come to me with a dynamic of I am lower desire. He is higher desire. In our sexual relationship and it plays out in other ways in their marriage. But for sure, this is kind of where the sore spot is in, in the marriage. So with your clients, are you finding that the men are coming mostly saying I am the higher desire partner? Yeah, absolutely. So mostly it's the men who are higher desire and I'll just do a little, um, overlap of what I said earlier. Sometimes higher desire, even though they don't know it means higher anxiety. Okay. Around the marriage, too. And they're using sex to calm that anxiety. And so you can see how that would feel like higher desire, because, ah, I need to be reassured that it's okay. I need to be reassured that she wants me. Oh, I've had a hard day. I need, like, to be close and to be touched, right? Like, ah. Yeah. Yeah. And so that can also mimic high desire when there's a lot of anxiety around that. So do you feel like it's, it's easy to start to recognize, like, I am just anxious, like, how, how is it that they can go from, no, this is just my hormones, this is just kind of, of course, I want my wife to recognizing, like, I don't, I don't feel, Great inside and that's why I want sex. Do you feel like that's a hard leap to make? Oh yeah. So the, the men that I work with, and I know this is not going to be typical for every man, but many of the men I work with, they are achievers and they are doers and they're going to be going and accomplishing. And so for them, it's very difficult to slow down and get into the body sometimes to actually recognize what's happening. So absolutely. It's just, Oh, I don't feel good. There's an outlet somewhere, right? My wife, that's, that's what we're here for, right? She's here to help me feel better or whatever. And also with my clients, they're often like, you know what? I'm doing everything else. I'm taking care of everybody else, right? I'm working so hard and I'm providing all these things, all the lessons in the home and the cars and what have you. Why can't she take care of me in this way, right? I'm taking care of everybody else I'd like to be taken care of and appreciated and chosen to. And so, it does. It takes, um, somebody who's willing to slow down and uncover some of those thoughts and feelings and really get into their body to be able to recognize it before they get so far down the cycle that, you know, that they're both miserable. Yeah, and I think, I think as women, um, that we recognize, like, I, I have to take care of him, and there's that pressure, right, to take care of, but at the same time, it feels scary to almost break that dynamic, because what would that even look like, right? It's like, it's like, I don't love how this feels. I don't love feeling like I'm almost used here to, to manage your emotions and to help you feel okay. Like, it doesn't feel like you're actually choosing me, but at the same time to stop, there's, there's like anxiety around stopping that dynamic. Right. Because. What does that even look like if you go from, I guess what people would call kind of this pursuer avoidant position to this, uh, now what now do I actually, how do, how do we engage with one another when sex isn't about calming your anxiety, right? You have to redefine your whole sexual relationship, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. And what I see, too, is many of the women, uh, from their perspective, they don't want their partner to be disappointed in them. Like, they're super terrified of their husband being upset or pouty or cold for days. And so, they It's, it's kind of this tricky dynamic of managing emotions. So the wife is like, I'm really uncomfortable when he's like that and when he's upset. So, so I don't have to go through that. I'll manage his emotions to manage my emotions. Do you see that leap? And it gets so convoluted. No wonder we're exhausted and overwhelmed in a dynamic like that because we're Like, it's just so tricky to manage somebody else so I can manage me to be okay, you know? Yes, yes, 100%. It's like, if I can make you okay, then I'm going to be able to feel okay, because you're going to be okay with me. But the problem I see my clients talk about, right? It's like, I do the thing, but then he's still not happy. Do you know why? Tell us. I think you probably do know why, but I, I just had an experience. So forgive me for sharing a personal experience here, but I just had this. So my husband did something, he, it, he said something to me, like in front of a bunch of people that I thought was not okay. And I was furious. And so when we got alone, I was expecting him to be like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, whatever. I wanted him to pursue me emotionally so I could feel better about the interaction. Well, he did not do that. And then I was like, come on, aren't you going to say something, you know? And so then it kind of got heated. He's like, well, I'm sorry. I did that. I'm sorry. I said that kind of like that. So he did the thing, he said the words, but it did not feel good. It did not feel sincere. It did not feel genuine. And so I still wasn't happy. And I think this happens in sex too, right? It's like, well, you should want me, you should take care of me. Like I do you. Right. And, and so we get in this, you know, Back and forth this pursuer avoidant and then so she's like, okay fine. I'll do the thing like okay My husband's like, okay fine. I'll say the apology and then he's like, well, that didn't feel good Like right you still didn't want me like it's not the good kind of sex It's the I will fill the quota check the box sex. So here's what I would say on the male side of this If we are trying to get her to do something to take care of us, trying to get her to see it our way, and I'm going to use the word force, but I'm going to use that lightly because obviously we're not talking about abuse on this podcast in that way. We try to pressure her to take care of us sexually. When she steps in to do it, if we don't map that she wants it, it still feels bad. Yes. Yes. And I think that's where the frustration comes, right? Because it's like, I, I'm so worried you're not going to choose me that I'm going to force you to choose me. Then when you do the thing, now I, now I feel terrible because I recognize I got what I wanted, but you weren't all in. So, but from the wife's side, right, it just feels like I can't win. Because I, I've given you this thing, you're still upset with me, so now I just resent you so much. And that's what I see, it's just like this cycle of, I don't know, I don't want to say high desire, low desire is a bad cycle because I, I think it's okay to have, um, desired differences, but maybe it's more what you're talking about, this pursuer avoidant cycle that you see just in the end, both partners are so resentful. I don't know. What do you see in your clients? Is it resentment? Is it, or is it just like, are they feeling fear? What do you see more in them? Um, I'm going to jot that down and come back to that resentment. Can I say something about what you said? You're like, the husband got what they wanted, but blah, blah, blah, blah. And this goes back to what I said in the beginning. They think it's about sex, but it's not. Clearly they didn't get what they wanted. What they wanted was connection, right? What they wanted was this feeling that she wants me and I want her and this, um, emotional connection to go along with the physical. So that's why I tell my clients is exactly what you said. It's not really about sex because if it were duty, sex would suffice. Checking the sex would suffice. And so I just want to make sure we point this out. It's not what you want. You want a relationship of connection and desire and intimacy. That's what they want. Yes, yes. Okay, so tell me what is your definition of intimacy? When you're talking to your clients about intimacy, what, what, how do you define it for them? So I've kind of adopted my definition from David Snarsh and Jennifer Finlayson Fyfe, but, um, when I think about it, I think it's being able to tolerate your own emotions so that you can be honest. and knowable. So, for example, like you were saying, the wife who wants to say yes to the husband so he won't be mad and pouty for two or three days, that's not intimate at all. Intimacy is, I love you, and I see you're struggling, and I can't be the one to always calm that, and I'm sorry I can't right now. Woo! Every woman who's listening to that, how does your body feel when you think about saying those words? Intimacy is tolerating your own emotions to be honest and knowable and tolerating how it feels for your partner to be honest and knowable. So he comes back and says, well, I feel this way, or I think this, or I see this. Can you tolerate, can you learn to sit in those emotions while he has a differing, It's a way of expressing your opinion of things, of you, of the relationship. Yeah, totally. That's connection. Right, it's connecting, but it is kind of terrifying. Like actually, this is a cute little story. My, who, my daughter will kill me one day when she listens to this, but on a little kind of text message on her phone, she turned it to a boy to show him that said, I like you on it. And he did something back to say, I like you too. But she's telling me this and she's sobbing. Sobbing. And I'm like, what's going on? And she's just like, I don't know. I just, and I said, do you just feel very kind of exposed? And, and I tried to kind of explain to her what I meant. And she was like, yes, like, I just feel like, even though it's what she wanted to say, it's so vulnerable. It was so scary. Right? And so she's sobbing, trying to handle the emotion. Just of that vulnerability of saying what was true and it was kind like it wasn't right, but being able to really say, this is me and I'm showing it to you knowing you could turn around and reject me and even though he didn't. She's just feeling kind of this vulnerability. I don't know, just that scary feeling. And so I think we do have to recognize if you are willing, if you want an intimate marriage, you actually have to be willing to feel that exposed, naked, Feeling that it's going to be uncomfortable. Yes. I love that story. First of all, that's adorable. And it reminded me of my client yesterday who had an intimate and honest conversation with his wife. And he said on our call, he said, Oh, it wasn't fun, but it was intimate. Like, and here's the thing. We want people to choose us. We want people to really desire us. But if we're not willing to show them who we are, they cannot do it. And if we're not willing to know who they are, we cannot really choose them. We can choose a version of them that we think they are, or that we wish they were, and try to pretend and put our head in the sand, but, but it's fake. And you'll feel it. You'll feel it in a lack of connection and fulfillment in, in Most of your interactions, not just sex in the bedroom, but you'll feel it if somebody's masking because they're too afraid to be seen or to see you. Yeah, and I think truly we do see, we do know a lot about each other, especially if you've been married for any length of time. You do understand things about each other and not because your story about your spouse is always, you know, Um, you know, it's it's spot on, right? But sometimes it's that frustration of, I actually am getting an idea of who you are, but you keep pushing me to think that you're a totally different way. And that is so frustrating, right? It's just like, just, you know, I'll have clients who are like, I don't even know if he actually likes me, but he, you know, he's telling me he likes me because he wants to have sex with me and yet it doesn't feel like he's having sex with me because he likes me, right? Because he doesn't have the ability to really be honest about Maybe his anxiety around it. Right. And yeah. And so it just comes across. So almost selfish. And I know that's not necessarily the intent, but I don't want any men. Oh, sorry. I was going to say, I just don't know that we're given like language or education. Right. on how to show up in these dynamics. Most of us are not. You have to go looking for it on a podcast like this, or, uh, or a book, or a course. Um, yeah, and I was going to say for many men too, they literally don't know how. So you said the thing I was going to say, they don't know how to connect deeply in other ways. Like sex to them, is deep emotional connection and vulnerability. Now, not always. I mean, I'm sure there's, there are men out there. So like you said in the beginning, this is not a blanket statement. There are men out there who are happy. Wham, bam. Thank you, ma'am. I don't care about you. Like that does happen. But if you're in a loving, committed relationship and, and you do believe that there's love there, I would maybe see if you can get really uncomfortable and have a like, Hey, what does intimacy mean to you? What is sex? Signify it to your brain, right? Like, when we are having sex, when we're not having sex, what does that mean to you? How does that feel to you? So, for those of you who are listening, you could get brave and maybe just start with one question. Right. See how it feels. Yeah, just having the conversation. And I would say, like, just even me being the lower desire partner in my own marriage, Just recognizing that even though I don't, I haven't loved always the dynamic that that has been in the past, it was a great place for me to hide. Because, and, and so I guess I would say if you're listening and feeling like you maybe are the lower desire, can you see how in some ways It actually has been nice because you have no responsibility, right? You're like, I never actually have to initiate or pursue because I'm always pursued, right? I never have to kind of step up into the relationship in a way that is more vulnerable, right? And that is something that I feel like that also can push the dynamic of your marriage a little bit is, is to step more in, be more of a participant, even if it's, even if the dynamic isn't totally cleaned up. I don't know. What's your thoughts on that? Yeah. I love that. It makes me think of what you said before. Do you see men, um, getting resentful too? And do they have that? I want to go back and say, yes, I do see men feeling resentment over time when they have a partner who they feel like won't step in, won't step up. Like I have clients sometimes they're like, I literally can't even bring up the topic. I can't even talk about it with her. And so that's super hard because what happens for most of us, when we're in a committed relationship, sex outside of marriage is, Not okay, right? And the partner that I love and choose is not willing to talk about it. They're not willing to engage as much as I'd like. And, and so they can feel really trapped and that does lead to resentment. And I'd like to add another Ari motion here, because you talked about like, You don't ever have to pursue you. You're always like being pursued. You don't have to think about your desire so much. Yeah, but the pursuer, one of the biggest things I see my clients anyway, are afraid of is rejection. And so for them, it is so scary, right? They have to pursue and they want it or, you know. Even when they're a little bit anxious and, and I wish if we were talking to men, we would frame this a little bit differently. So I want you women to know it's not your quote fault, but we're just trying to show you that's something that's twirling around in their mind all the time. If I try to pursue again, am I going to be rejected? How will that feel? And, um, I think rejection and resentment go hand in hand in this type of dynamic because they're so afraid of feeling the discomfort of rejection, then they'll back off or they'll keep trying, but they almost resent you for making them feel rejection so often, you know, and so it kind of layers together and it does, it gets so painful on both sides of this relationship. Yeah. Yeah. So painful. Okay. So what, like, I mean, obviously honest, some honest conversation, um, is helpful, but like you're saying, sometimes trying to have those conversations is so hard. I, I certainly think, and you can tell me what you think, I certainly think sometimes entering into those conversations from a place of, let me tell you where I see I haven't done great here. sometimes is a better way to, to start the conversation because it keeps defenses low. And it's not from a manipulative place. I'm like, I'm really being serious, like from an honest place of I'm willing to look at myself and, and say, like, even as a lower desire person to be able to say, I actually see that sometimes The way that I feel powerful here is to resent you or we're having sex but I'm not really here and I make sure you understand like I'm not really invested in this and it's kind of my way of having power here and I recognize how unkind that is and being able to kind of come in with some honest self reflection. I think would be helpful, but I don't know. What other things do you kind of help your clients do to shift this dynamic? And I don't even know what you're shifting it to. You're trying to shift it out of maybe that pursuer avoidant dynamic? What are you helping them to kind of do, giving them some practical things to take into the marriage maybe? So when I'm working with them in on my side, what I'm doing for them is teaching them how to calm their own anxieties and then be able to be intimate, to be knowable, to have conversations around it, that they can process through their own resentment, their own agenda, et cetera. Feelings of rejection and then they can come in and talk to their partner about it. The other thing, um, as soon as you started talking like, yeah, I want to be able to come in and self confront saying this is what I'm doing. This is my contribution. My clients are notorious for this. When their wife will come in and say something like that, then they sort of punish her, right? And, and they don't know they're doing it, but sometimes they'll be like, yeah, and it's this and it's that. And you always. Right, or it's about something or what do you do, right? Here's what I would say. Be careful. If you have a partner who's lower desire, come in to this conversation, willing to listen, willing to hear. And your body will feel so uncomfortable and it will make you want to crawl out of your skin sometimes. But when you have a partner who's lower desire or more avoidant and they are willing to step forward and start talking to you, Be so careful that you don't punish them for that. I, I help my clients learn how to create a space that is safe for vulnerability. You think about like being vulnerable and somebody's coming in with a hammer about to smash you as soon as you show the vulnerability, then they run back out and say, I can never go there again. And then again, we make the cycle almost worse. Yes. You got to be. So careful with that. Right. So what, what ways do you suggest kind of making this safe space? What do you suggest? This is kind of meta and nuanced, but I like calling the elephant out in the room. So I might have a conversation about a conversation I want to have. So that might look something like this. Like, hey, sweetheart, if we were to be able to have conversations about our intimacy, I think I'd be really afraid that if I showed you my weaknesses and my flaws, that that might make you more upset and you wouldn't be able to tolerate that. Do you think that would be okay? Like, I want to share some things. I've been thinking about it. I know you think I don't think about it, but I am. Do you think that we could do this? And both stay calm, right? I might just call the elephant out in the room. Like, listen, I'm so afraid of X, Y, and Z. And I have some things. That I really do see, and I'd like to share. Right. That's so good. So just kind of giving the opportunity, kind of laying the foundation without going right into, I want to talk to you about this right now. Yeah, and your timing needs to be good, especially, especially if this is a super volatile topic, like it is for some couples. Like, you just want to be Very sensitive to that on both sides. And, you know, here's the other thing I'll say, sometimes you're thinking about something for a really long time and you've worked through a lot of thoughts and ideas and feelings, and then you go to your partner and spring it on them, you're light years ahead of where they are and they don't respond in the same way and you're like, well, what's right for you? I'm all mature over here. And you're not right. And they're like, what? You just threw something in my face that I've never even considered. I wasn't prepared. Yes, yes, so good. And so I guess that is part of, um, part of that vulnerability and that willingness to be intimate is, and I'm willing to kind of allow you to be where you are right now. Like, And, and not necessarily judging it as like you're so far behind or it's just, you know, we've seen things differently. I've thought about it differently. Yeah. Kind of having that kind of a conversation. So, so good. So when you're, when you're, you have these clients who you feel like are more kind of pursuer and you're like, Hey, let's learn how to calm ourselves down a little bit. What ways do you. Are there practical things you do? Or is it really just learning how to process emotions? Or is it learning just how to like, can you still be anxious and do the thing? Like, I feel the anxiety, but I'm going to show up more mature here. What kind of things do you teach your clients to do to kind of settle? Yes to all of that. Um, One of the most important things I think for my clients is to learn how to get into their body. Okay. Learn how to feel feelings in their bodies because they're so fast moving. Most of the people I work with and they're used to earning and accomplishing something. And as you well know, when it comes to an intimate relationship, physically or emotionally, that's not something you can earn your way toward. Most of my clients are so used to seeing something, wanting it. And just working their face off and enjoying it when they get it right. And so we just have to teach them a different way when it comes to relationships. So getting into the body and first, just feeling what does desire feel like? What does rejection feel like? Right? You know this, you've done some of this work too, but it's like, okay, if this is literally just a vibration in my body. And sometimes it can be an intense vibration and for some of the women that you talk to, they might even consider it some trauma, right, because they, right, and so maybe they need to address it with a trauma therapist for them. Um, Whatever is coming up in your body, first of all, you have to recognize it and then learn some skill sets to be able to handle it. And, and I do that through a lot of ways. We do, I have some journaling, um, exercises that allows us to get more aware of what's going on with the thought, feeling, urge process. We have, um, just, you know, techniques where we map in the body those emotions and let them move through us. There are techniques where you might want to go back and look at where some of those emotions came from. And is there some healing that you need to do that has nothing to do with your mirror? Right. You will want to do that. And hint, hint, nine times out of 10, there's going to be some of that, right? That's more the norm instead of the exception. Yes. Yes. Yeah, so good. And do you find that, I mean, you have these high achieving men, do you find that they are actually open to this because they're kind of like, I'm at the end of my rope here? Like, I'm willing to do anything? Is that really what you find? Yes, usually. There are some exceptions. So again, I can't make a blanket statement. But those men who are willing to learn their emotional body, learn where these things came from, you know, Those are the ones who have the greatest success. And it's, it's really important to just make the right choices in creating deeper, more intimate relationships. Love it. So it is really interesting because oftentimes I'll, I remember one time three, three women in one week came back to me and they were like, My husband's changing. Did you know this would happen? And I was like, well, I guess I couldn't guarantee that. But it's like, as soon as you start to be more. Responsible for yourself and acting just a little more mature in your relationship. I find that often it like pressures a change in their spouse. It is a good change. And, and I mean, I think it takes a lot of work. It's not like everything changes overnight, but it was so funny when all three of them came back and you're like, My husband is like being so different. So I don't know. Do you, your clients see that just by changing themselves, they start to see a change in their spouse? Yeah. And they kind of hate it when I say this, but here's a broken record line, I will say on many of my calls. Like see. When you give her space to choose you, she steps in. When you try to force her to choose and you try to pressure her to do things how you want her to, she runs. But when you can chill out, take a deep breath, take care of yourself and give her that space and show her That it's okay for her to be honest and noble. She usually steps in. Not always, we can't promise that for every listener, but. Very, very common. Yeah, I think very common. That is, that is what happens. And I think, um, I guess one thing I would say is that it can be really easy when you're, especially in the low desire side of things to feel like none of this is your fault. And I hate to use the word like fault, but that, you know, it's, it feels like it's all happening to you. But I promise that I, I mean, I, I also see people on the other side who feel like, you know, The, the dynamic of the marriage is happening to them, even though they're the higher desire, right? They're like, there's nothing wrong with me. I want sex. So this is all happening to me. And so when you're in that mindset of it's not me, it's very hard to change the dynamic. If you are unwilling to look and see your part. In what's been created here. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's so valuable on both sides here because we don't have a dynamic without both sides of the participation. And I think that's what you said earlier, right? One person when they shift, the whole dynamic has to shift. Will it shift in the exact way that you want it to or as quickly as you want it to? Probably not, if we're being honest, but if there's a dynamic with two people and one changes, it has to change. Yes. My son said something funny yesterday, um, he said, He who knows how to destroy the thing controls the thing. And that's been running in my head the whole time that you've been talking, but it's like, When we have a lower desire partner, they're like, nope, I'm the one who can cut it off. I'm the one who gets to say yes or no, because I'm constantly being pursued. I know that the lower desire partner probably doesn't feel like it. But the higher desire partner or the pursuer often feels like he has no control in his sexual relationship. It's the thing he wants the most, it's the thing he craves the most, and she controls it all. I'm not saying that's the case, but it feels that way often from the other side. Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think that's a lot of the messaging, right, that comes to the lower desire partner, the women that I work with, is, you Like he says I'm in control and yet I feel like he's totally in control because he punishes me if I don't show up in this way. And so it's just good to realize we're both thinking this. So in what way is my partner right about this? And, and is, is this the dynamic that we want? Because again, it just becomes so almost competitive and it's not about actually like loving one another. It's just becomes, I don't know. I, people always say to me, Like sex is really important, right? And I'm like, you know, I hate to say that, that, yeah, like newlyweds, right? They'll say, yeah, everyone says sex is so important. And I'm like, it is, but not how you're thinking about it because bad sex actually is bad for a marriage. So it's important in the way that it actually does impact the marriage. If you have an intimate, good sexual relationship that actually is about loving each other and making space for each other in it, it does absolutely help your marriage. But if you have a sexual relationship with, where it's fighting and resentment, it's hard on a marriage. It's hard on a marriage. And so I know a lot of people feel really desperate for help in this area. So I so appreciate you coming on to discuss this with me. The last thing. Oh, go ahead. Say what you're going to say. I was just going to say, unfortunately, sex becomes almost a power play. In many relationships, and I feel like the lower desire is like, okay, if this is the only power I have, then I guess I'll take it. Right? Like, and then that higher desire partner who's used to getting everything he wants, it's so hard for him to feel that that's the one thing you can't. And then you just get in this big power struggle. And like you said, Oh, so So hard on a marriage can really destroy any shred of intimacy that you had. It really kind of breaks my heart to think about how dysfunctional it can be. Yeah. Yeah. So hard, but I will say like, even just from my own experience, I just feel like I was so determined. I was like, there has to be a healthier way to do this. And I feel like if you are willing to just stick to it and do your work, you will find like there, I mean, there's tons of help out there, right? Rhonda's helping people. I'm helping people. There's tons of therapists and coaches and, um, You know, self help authors that are helping people to kind of heal and think about their sexual relationships differently. And so it's so, so possible. Like, I just want people to know. So possible. Yes, I'm putting my hand on my heart. I literally had a woman yesterday, um, her husband is my client, and she just said, I feel hopeless. I feel hopeless. They've been married over 20 years, and, ugh, just, you know, Breaks my heart to see and and she's totally owning her part in it, right? But I I think what you're saying is some people are like, okay, I see my part but now what what do I do? So I really appreciate you giving that plug just there's help out there You might have to go find it and it might be a little uncomfortable But we see these relationships turn around often. It's possible. Yes, a hundred percent. It's so possible. Kind of the last thing I want to talk about just because my podcast is about wanting to want it. Um, and you and I kind of discussed a little bit of the idea of, um, sometimes when you are the lower desire in your marriage, sometimes you're the lower desire in a lot of ways, right. And you kind of have put aside things you want. To make everyone else kind of happy to the point where you don't even know what you want anymore, right? I don't, I don't even know what I desire. I don't know what I, where I'd go out to a restaurant. I don't know what I would buy at the store for a new outfit. Like, I don't even know what I desire. And you kind of had given an example of a woman who was like, Oh, now that my husband and my kids want a dog, I guess it's okay for me to want a dog. A dog, right? So do you want to just speak a little bit to that dynamic that you have seen as well? Yeah, um, again, it's kind of like when we were talking earlier, I'll manage his emotions around sex so I can feel okay. It's like this convoluted triangle of trying to make myself feel better. This desire is very, very similar, right? If I want something, it's only okay if X, Y, or Z also wants something. Mm-Hmm. And now I can only consider doing the thing if we can somehow make this like a family desire, a family want. And so it's not only you're trying to prevent the uncomfortable feelings, but you're also trying to acquire Mm-Hmm. Fulfillment or the happiness or, or the leisure. Right. The. Um, when you're just going out to do things for fun with your kids, your desires are framed through everybody else, and it's exhausting, right, and it's sad. I had another friend tell me, I wanted to go see this concert, and nobody else wanted to go, so I didn't even bring it up. Nobody else liked the thing I liked. It's like. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. You're framing all of your emotional well being around everybody else and that just, it will wear you out. And it will leave you sometimes feeling like a shell of a person. Right. Yeah. And so I guess that is about like stepping into the discomfort of being known and seen and saying, this is something I want. Even if everybody disagrees with it, doesn't like it, thinks you're crazy, right. Just being able to say. I mean, I remember just feeling like I would love to just like have an hour a day, I just got to sit and read like my kids were at school, my husband's at work, but my brain was like, no, someone has to give you permission for that. That is not something you are just allowed to want without permission from anyone else, right? Yes, I used to do that too. Um, I've worked on this a lot, but I remember I had this friend. It was years ago when my kids were little and I live in Tennessee near somewhat near Dollywood. Anyway, this friend of mine, she's like, my husband hates Dollywood. So I just bought season passes for me and the kids and we go whenever we want to. My jaw dropped. I'm like, what? Your husband hates it? And you bought them anyway and went without like, I was so naive. Like you couldn't do that. She's just like, of course, yes, but I, it's too, and I still catch myself occasionally. And if I'm being honest, I think most of us do that, right? But I do think I don't want to get men versus women here because that's, I want to connect men and women. That is my ultimate goal is to connect marriages and, um, just in society as a whole. But I do think women struggle with marriage. Having their own desire more than men do. Yeah. And I think we come by that honest culture. Like I will never forget. I shared this on my podcast. Um, I was working in a dry cleaner in college. And so I'm like handing all these C suite men, their suits all the time. And this one guy thought he was being so kind and giving me this great advice. I think I was like 18 years old. And he's like, I want you to really think about who you marry. It's really important for a woman because who you marry will define the rest of your life. Now a man, it's not the same, right? Because he can go out and marry any woman, but he's still going to go out and get the job he wants. He's still going to go out and do the things he wants. But for you, sweetheart, you have to be really careful. Marry the man who will define you in the way you want to be defined. And I was like, Oh, that's so nice. Like he's this rich, handsome dude. Like he's giving me such sweet wisdom from his perspective. I'm telling you, Jamelyn, that about calls me to get a divorce. Like, whenever I was married in the beginning, I was like, well, I'd actually like a different house. Or, I'd actually like for our life to look different. And my husband's like, well, I have this way of doing it, right? And I felt so stuck. And I felt so trapped. And I couldn't desire what I wanted. Like, I've seen this with my friends and clients, too. A wife would want something as simple as a different car, right? But she has to go through the chain of command. And not that we should have everything we want. I don't want to say materialism is what I'm talking about. But it's like, We literally, especially as a stay at home mom or somebody who puts all their money or resources into the family, you literally have to go through these chains of command to desire so many things. Right. This is hard. It's hard. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. It is. And so we can have some compassion as we kind of navigate and figure out, you know, You know, how, how to kind of connect with ourselves and be authentic while at the same time working out a relationship like Jennifer Finlayson Fife always says, right? We, we want to belong to ourselves, but we also want to be intimate. We want to belong to someone else. And that balance of still belonging to yourself and belonging to somebody else is a tough dynamic and it doesn't look the same for everybody and that's okay. But. You just have to maybe have the courage to step in and say to yourself, like, how, how do I navigate this? And I'm kind of willing to fail at it. Honestly, I'm willing to go in and fail at this until I find a way that works for me and for him, for us to have some autonomy and this interdependent relationship. Yes. And when you said own your own mind, it made me think of a little caveat about your desires. Even if you say, Hey, I desire, I don't know, like this brand new car and this beautiful new home, and that's not in the budget, just acknowledging your desire and voicing your desire if you choose to. That is knowing your own mind and sharing your own mind. I'm not trying to say you have to go out and get everything you desire or want. Most of us will not get everything we want. That's not what this is about. So I don't want to misconstrue, um, the concept here. The concept is Exactly what you said. Can I know my own mind? And can I tolerate how it feels in my body to share my mind with the people I love and the people that I choose to share it with? Right. Right. So same goes for sex. And I'll say this to the men too, even if she's not going to do everything you want her to and she's not, right, that's, that's typical for most relationships. Can you own your desire without shame? Without beating yourself up and if you choose to can you just share with her? Hey, I think about these things or I like these things without the expectation that she's gonna fall all over her feet and bend Down and do it all of course. That's not what this is about It's knowing and owning without a ton of shame and fear and all that and then sharing if and when you choose Because that's the connection piece. Mm hmm. Yeah, so it's almost like, can you get intimate with yourself first? Like, can you, can you actually know you first? All of you? Even the parts that you don't love? And then, are you willing to at least share some of it as well with your spouse? So, I guess there is kind of an intimacy on both sides. Yes. And I'll say even, can you especially know and love on the parts that you don't really like? I think that's one of the most healing, I read a quote somewhere, it was on social media, but it just said, we think of healing as like solving all this old pain and like letting all the emotions go. And they're like, healing actually is just loving all the parts of you without shame and embarrassment, regret. So good. I, yes, I agree with that. Rhonda, thank you so much for coming on today and sharing all of your wisdom and insight. I feel like it is always so helpful to hear from other people and also just to hear from somebody who is working more with men and with the higher desire. person just gives my people a different view, a different way to look and hopefully have a little more compassion, a little more desire to kind of collaborate more instead of competing with each other and make something better in their marriages. So if anybody wants to find you, to work with you, to see your stuff, where can they go? I have a website, Rhonda far. com. Um, I'm on Instagram, Rhonda far underscore coaching, and I have a podcast. It's called the intimacy podcast for the million dollar man. And you can go listen to, um, some of my work there. And there's usually a scheduling link also in my show notes on my podcast. So if anybody wants to chat or send a man in their life, my way to chat and find me there. Awesome. Awesome. Okay. I will link all of that in my show notes as well. So thank you so much, Rhonda. I appreciate it so much. Thanks for coming. Hey. Thanks for listening today. If you like what you hear on the podcast, and you'd like to learn more, feel free to head over to my website. Jamilin Stephan coaching.com or find me on Instagram or Facebook at Jamileh. step in coaching.