In-Between: Financial Wellness w/ Emilie Dayan Hill

Welcome to the  Women's Wellness Series! This week's episode starts things off strong.

Please welcome my new friend, financial queen, Emilie Dayan Hill. Emilie is a high net worth money manager here in Atlanta, GA. With her experience in the financial industry, Emilie created Finance That Feels. In its current state, Finance That Feels is a monthly publication on Substack that's about making money more meaningful in our lives. More specifically, Emilie believes in Financial Wellness, and wants women everywhere to feel empowered with their money. 

In today's episode, we're talking about: 

• What is Financial Success versus Financial Wellness?
• Finance Industry - why does it feel like women aren't invited? Here's a hint, statistically speaking, we're not. Emilie breaks that down more and explains how the industry tends to serve men. 
• Money Wellness practices - monthly check-in; how that can break down intimidation towards taking control of your finances.
• Growth mindset versus a scarcity mindset - how can you foster a healthy growth mindset when it comes to your finances. 
• Money Scripts - Money personalities we've adapted from our past and how we were raised; Emilie breaks down  the four different scripts, what they mean, and how we can work on our own.
• How to cultivate Financial Wellness and find "enough."

Check out Emilie's website, https://emiliedayanhill.com/.
Don't miss out on Emilie's monthly Substack, Finance That Feels! You can subscribe here.
You can keep up with Emilie on the daily by following her on Instagram @EmilieDayanHill.

**Please note that today's episode is for educational purposes only and does not constitute investment or any type of financial advice. The opinions expressed are Emilie's and hers alone.**

Connect with me:
https://in-between.co
@in.betweenpod on Instagram
@elizabethcheney_ on Instagram
@theinbetweenpodcast on TikTok
The In-Between Podcast on YouTube

Transcript

Elizabeth Cheney: 0:07

Hey, hey, hey, welcome back to an all new episode of the in between. I'm your host Elizabeth Cheney. And you know what? I have the greatest episode for y'all today. I am so excited. So before I introduce our guests, I'm going to give you a quick little spiel tee up today's content. So. We're all on social media and there are tons of content creators in the financial space. They're pushing investment advice. They're pushing high yield savings accounts, which credit cards with the best reward points, which, which best cash back apps, just overwhelming. And then you have maybe the more aggressive content creators in the financial space that in my opinion, tend to not acknowledge their, you know, privilege, maybe from birth or just privilege in general. And they. They kind of criticize you if you don't have a certain amount, say, if you're not a certain place, we already know how social media can feed the feeling that you're not enough and you compare yourself in every aspect of your life. And I can only imagine the shame that's associated with their thoughts and feelings around money. When it comes to society and social media, I wish I could disband this feeling, this mindset that financial success is easy for. Everyone, no matter where you come from, keyword easy. I'm not saying impossible, but like duh, if you're not doing it, then you're, you're the problem, right? This is one of the many things that factor into our feelings around money, behavior and all around financial wellness. I wish I could disband this shame. As this is one of the many things in our way to see forward and empower us with our own financial goals and successes. One step towards that is understanding our relationship with money, but I don't know where to begin with that y'all. So now enter my new friend, Emilie, Dayan Hill. Emilie is a high net worth advisor and portfolio manager here in Atlanta. With her ongoing experience and training as a professional in the finance space, as well as her interest in mental health and wellness, finance that feels was born to empower women with their money in financial wellness slam dunk for the in between podcast. So before I bring her on, I just want to quickly mention that today's episode is not personalized financial advice. It is more for educational purposes and a general discussion around what is financial success and financial wellness. On that note. Emilie, welcome to the in between

Emilie Dayan Hill: 2:19

Hey, hey, thank you so much for having me here, Elizabeth, and thank you for the lovely introduction. You've already raised so many great points that I am excited to dive into today.

Elizabeth Cheney: 2:30

wonderful. Yeah. I basically just opened my journal and I was like, what am I most insecure about? And money was at the top list.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 2:36

Well, you're not alone. Money is the biggest stressor, according to the American Psychological Association.

Elizabeth Cheney: 2:42

well, that seems like a very well citation. So I'm going to take your word on that. So, uh, before we get into today's episode, Emilie, uh, I just want to say thank you for your patience and all the rescheduling y'all we've been talking about this since the end of November, but Hey. We're here. That's all that matters. And y'all are going to get some fantabulous educational advice. So on that note, let's first start, Emilie, what is finance that feels,

Emilie Dayan Hill: 3:08

Finance That Feels is, my favorite book. platform where I talk about money, feelings, and making money meaningful in our lives. It's had several different iterations over its four year life, but as it exists today, it is a monthly newsletter on Substack. You can subscribe for free. It is absolutely free. It's a monthly newsletter where every month I have a theme about money and something that we all need to digest. And the topics are endless. Like, I'm never going to run out of topics. And then from there, I have an Instagram account. Uh, which is where I tend to live, during the week, and chatting with people, and, really like a community. Community is over on Instagram, but then effort I'm really working on right now is this newsletter, and then everything else flowing from there. So, all that to say, finance that feels. Is, where again, I talk about money and feelings and making money meaningful in our lives. And the reason I got started doing this is because very early on in my career, and I have all the training to do what I do as a money manager. I studied economics in undergrad, and then early in my career, I did the Chartered Financial Analyst. program, which is three years of very rigorous testing to be able to work in the, um, money management space. But very quickly in my career, I realized that although I was trained to work with the numbers aspect of my job, I was not at all prepared to handle the emotional and psychological complexity of working with real people with real money. like, there is no training for that. And, you know, I was young. I was looking for support, for answers, and realized there are no answers. No one else is talking about this. and then what, what really, uh, was the trigger to get me going with finance that feels was COVID pandemic 2020. I was, you know, isolated at home and I was like, Hey, what if I just start talking about money and feelings on Instagram? And it immediately became a place of such connection. And, um, And I've even been introduced to so many people who have the same mission that I do of bringing these two sides, you know, money, analytical numbers, but also the feeling side of it, the psychology, the emotional side of it. other people like that. So I have found a community and um, you know, it's a burgeoning field but it is so important. I see it every day at work. Like this is such important, such an important concept that we need to be understanding and people like me need to be trained not only with the numbers but also how to work with real people with real money.

Elizabeth Cheney: 6:25

Yeah, I, I don't even, like when I first found your content, I didn't even understand the, like the question, a relationship with money. I never even asked myself that. I never thought about it, but what I do have with money is, is a, I don't come from a very strong financial background. So there's a lot of insecurity and like those negative emotions I was talking about in the beginning. So finding a set feels. I feel like that's going to bridge the gap of that maybe negative self worth, um, self worth net worth. There we go. That's funny to me to do that. But it's like bridging that gap, not to shame yourself and to understand all the complexities. Like we talked, you, you shared some information with me, which I know we'll get into here momentarily about the gender differences and, and in different metrics and just the inequality as a woman compared to a man, like to keep it binary simple like that, which I know there's probably a. Even more data subsets when we're talking about even more marginalized communities. So what are two, the big things that you talk about are financial success versus financial wellness and what those two things are and how they relate to finance that feels. So could you, could we talk about like what is financial wellness versus what is financial success? And then we'll kind of get into both of those a little bit more

Emilie Dayan Hill: 7:41

Yeah, so I'll start by saying financial success does not equal financial wellness. You can be the most, the richest person on earth, you can have the most dollars in the bank, and you can be financially unwell. So to me, true financial success can only exist if you have financial wellness. So what is financial wellness? Well, on the one hand, financial success are the things that you can measure. Net worth, like you said. Performance, returns, uh, savings, assets, all of that. You can measure those. Financial wellness is defined by things that we cannot measure. It's measured by the feeling that it creates, um, and how your actions and your net worth are aligning with your personal values. And these are things that very few people are talking about.

Elizabeth Cheney: 8:46

About to say, I've never talked about it. So

Emilie Dayan Hill: 8:51

important and I'll give you, I can give you some tips.

Elizabeth Cheney: 8:54

please let's get, let's break that down. Cause you also talk about financial wellness as a form of self care, which I think is beautiful. And I love that. Like that is a, that was the thing that really helped me get in the mindset of what you were talking about. So yeah, let's talk about financial wellness. Give me some examples.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 9:10

yeah, so financial wellness, especially thinking about it in terms of self care. You want to think about financial wellness as no big deal. You know, it's part of your routine. It's the same as brushing your teeth. You do it. You don't even think about it. You know it keeps you healthy. You're not stressed out every time you pick up your toothbrush. You know? Every once in a while, you go to the dentist for a deeper checkup. And if there's something wrong, you go to a dentist or someone who is an expert and can actually help. But just on like the day to day, you're taking care of yourself. You have a relationship with your money and it's not this, you know, scary monster. It's It's a thing you have a relationship with. It's part of your routine. and by creating that space for financial wellness and for your money relationship, uh, you set yourself up to handle no matter what comes your way because life is full of uncertainties. And You know, that's where people get so tripped up with money is when the unexpected happens and so many of us associate money and financial worth with self worth. And so then when the unexpected happens or you have to make, um, you know, you're forced into a decision about your money because of the circumstance you find yourself in. We then make it into a judgment on ourselves and say, Oh, well. I'm just not good with money and I don't deserve this. I don't deserve money. Like, I don't know how to handle money. so that's why financial wellness is so important.

Elizabeth Cheney: 11:01

I was gonna say, I'm very guilty of all of those negative narratives you just said. Yikes. I feel like I'm being kind of called out, but in a safe space.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 11:09

a very safe space.

Elizabeth Cheney: 11:10

I'm, I'm curious. I'm sure this has an effect on the gender differences as well. And in some of the materials you provided, you called out some, some statistics that were a little concerning. Um, because I mean, financial wellness on one aspect, but then also like as a woman, um, you, you talked about, okay. So. Half of the population in the world is women. Okay, great. But yet in the S and P 500 companies, you said 6 percent of CEOs were women and even less than half of those companies had any female representation on the seaboard or C suite. Excuse me. And. There was plenty of other different things I feel free to mention, but so there's already an inequality imbalance when it comes from a gender perspective, a financial success, financial, just the financial space. And then you think about social media and how that plays into it as well. And these inner negative narratives, so basically, I guess I want permission from you to say, it's okay that I feel like. Things aren't fair for myself. Um, so let's talk about that. Let's talk about, I'd like your opinions on the gender differences. And also the I'm sticking still on the theme of financial wellness, how also that can play into our social media, like digestion, like what we absorb from social media, and then we can kind of segue into self care practices through a lens of financial wellness. Cause I love that.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 12:39

Uh, what I want to say first is, if you feel like it's unfair because you're a woman, it's because it is unfair. The statistics are absolutely depressing. As you mentioned, you know, 50 percent of the population is female. We know this. Uh, 89 percent of household daily budgets are run by women. So the majority of women are making the day to day money decisions for their household, but this is where it starts to get depressing. 70 percent of women defer long term financial decisions to their male counterpart, so their husband or their partner. Women own less than 32 percent of the world's wealth. Even though we're making the daily spending decisions for our families, we actually don't own the money. every, you know, this is, this is, uh, common knowledge at this point that for every one dollar earned by a man, a woman earns 82 cents.

Elizabeth Cheney: 13:45

Oh, gosh. What?

Emilie Dayan Hill: 13:48

with money. We get charged higher rates on loans. But here's some of the flip side. We carry less overall debt than men. Women give more to charity than men. Female investors tend to have better returns than men. and you know, one last thing is. Because of this lower confidence we have with money, we tend to be more risk averse. And when talking about investing in finances, when you are risk averse, you will tend to hold on to cash. Well, this only compounds the wealth deficit between men and women. Because by not investing, we're not keeping up with the growth that men are experiencing by taking risk in the market. So you ask, you know, what finance that feels is, and you know, I should probably have just said, it's my way of trying to empower women with their money. And here's where we can talk about the gender differences. Um, one of my favorite things about Instagram is the ability to poll people. And get data. It has been such a source of learning and data gathering for me. And one of the most interesting polls I ever did. Um, that was just incredibly enlightening. Was when I asked what does financial success look like to you? And I started noticing. I'm going to talk about a pattern as I was tracking the responses I was getting. Men tended to respond with words like profit, asset accumulation, net worth, performance. So back to financial success, those are all things that you can see and measure. Women tended to respond with words like empowerment, peace of mind. Security. Taking care of my family. Generosity. I mean, these things that, like, you can't measure. And,

Elizabeth Cheney: 16:10

Right.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 16:11

that to me, it was like, oh my god, like, I just landed on a treasure trove of information. Um, you know, even though it's so obvious. And, so that's what led me down the rabbit hole of financial success versus financial wellness. And the financial industry is built around financial success. The financial industry was built by men. It currently is run by men. For example, in my field of financial advisors, money managers, only 15 percent are women. One five, 15%.

Elizabeth Cheney: 16:49

Oh,

Emilie Dayan Hill: 16:50

Um, we're extremely rare. It's wild. Um,

Elizabeth Cheney: 16:56

Yeah. Okay. Oh.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 17:00

the, the very notions we have of money and the way we talk about money is masculine. And when we frame it that way, of course women feel. Unempowered. Like, they're not even talking the same language as us. They're not addressing what our biggest concerns are, what our needs are. And, I do want to mention, this is not because women are needy or Extra, we need just like a softer touch. We're literally wired differently. Our hippocampus in our brain is larger than the male hippocampus. And the hippocampus is responsible for memory and connection and social formation. Meaning that we are wired to keep social harmony and to be in community. We have 11 percent more neurons wired for language and hearing. And that's just amazing to me because remember that the majority of financial advisors are men. And I cannot tell you how many women have told me My financial advisor is not listening to me. Like, he's not hearing me when I'm telling him, like, my concerns. And so, looking at this data from my little Instagram poll, I mean, obviously the sample size is not huge, but it was significant enough. Um, I think it's on to something. We are literally speaking a different language when it comes to money. Yeah, so a lot of that brain stuff is from a great book. I would love to recommend, it's called the female brain. I can't remember the author's name right now, but she's an MD. She's a doctor and a researcher. Um, and. A quote from her book that I just love is, Femaleness is not a design flaw. So, the fact that the financial industry is not serving us is not because we're flawed. It's because It's designed for men.

Elizabeth Cheney: 19:17

Makes sense. That checks out.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 19:20

So, I don't know where you want to go from there, but.

Elizabeth Cheney: 19:22

No, I think that's just so interesting that, well, okay, your poll is fascinating and it's like qualitative versus quantitative or excuse me, quantity. The men's result the male result response was qualitative, very, like you said, the numbers, the

Emilie Dayan Hill: 19:38

Quantitative, yeah.

Elizabeth Cheney: 19:39

a lot of quantitative.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 19:40

All good, all

Elizabeth Cheney: 19:43

response is qualitative and, and, and I did not know that about the brain chemistry, what you were just talking about that blew my mind, but also not surprised,

Emilie Dayan Hill: 19:51

Yeah, it makes sense.

Elizabeth Cheney: 19:52

So I have a couple of questions. I'm not sure which way I want to segue into that because my first my first question, I just want to ask you is why do you think that it do you think that is because the financial space, the industry as a whole was built by men? And if so, then how, how do you change that? How do you bring more of the emotional feeling aspect to this? Because that will also, you know, you know, Go into social media because I was talking about the different content creators, which again, I'd love your thoughts on that, too. But because I do see some that are more negative and it seems to disregard where you came from what you do. It's just like, well, if you're not doing this, you're not using the system, the super complicated system that. It's very overwhelming, then you're, you're doomed, you know, like it's

Emilie Dayan Hill: 20:35

They're making money a moral judgment. They're making money a moral judgment.

Elizabeth Cheney: 20:40

exactly. Thank you. Very eloquently said. So yes, can you, let's talk first of why you think that is and if it is because of it being built by men, how, how do we bridge it if that's even like a fair question to ask? And then also just the general scope of like social media and how that plays into it too. Cause like social media. Now makes information easily available, right? I would have never been able to learn what I have learned if it wasn't for social media. So it's, it is a good thing, but it's also very toxic.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 21:12

Yeah, so, We all know why the industry is built by men. It's because men have historically controlled everything. Uh, but you, I think, Something that our generation especially takes for granted and, like, I did not know this until recently. Women were not allowed to have a credit card until the 70s. They were not allowed to open accounts on their own until the 70s. Yes.

Elizabeth Cheney: 21:40

Oh, I did not know that.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 21:42

I know! So The first problem is women's access to capital, women's access to money. You know, women were able to go to college long before that, but even though they got their own jobs, made their own salaries, they were not able to get a credit card. I mean, the inequality, I mean we just, you know, we started several steps behind and have only just now started catching up. And as you mentioned earlier, When you look at subsets of certain demographics, I mean, it's even worse. You know, as white women, we are in the best position among the women group. Um, so I want to acknowledge that. I mean, it gets even worse for other groups of people. so, a second point, and I feel like I'm going to get blackmailed for saying this.

Elizabeth Cheney: 22:42

No, you

Emilie Dayan Hill: 22:42

I'm, I'm, I'm convinced the financial industry intentionally uses jargon and words that we don't understand as a way to intimidate people into believing they can't do this on their own. They have to hire someone to do it for them. And we know that they're using. masculinity to talk about money so of course women feel completely uninvited to the conversation. So there's that.

Elizabeth Cheney: 23:16

Yeah, I, I feel that very much. So thank you for acknowledging that. Cause I feel that way.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 23:21

yeah. And then the third thing I'll say it touches on the industry today. you know, I'm a millennial. When I went to college, it never crossed my mind that I would experience gender inequality. I don't know if it was like that for you. Like, we were kind of, I feel like I was raised very much like, yeah, you can do whatever you want. there's no, nothing holding you back. And it wasn't until I started, my career that I really was like, oh, wait, like there's still, gender bias. And finance, you know, so that's like why I went this direction is I didn't even, it didn't even cross my mind that it was minority women. Like it didn't even cross my mind that it was still a majority male industry. I mean, Doctors are 50 50. Lawyers are 50 50. Financial industry, 15 percent women. 85 percent men. Um, but now that I'm in the industry and I see these numbers, I think there's a couple reasons women don't go into finance even today. And I think it's all, solvable. There's solutions to this. but a story I'll tell is when I was doing the CFA exams, Chartered Financial Analyst, it's one exam per year for three years, and it's extremely difficult, the pass rate is really low, and, I mean, it's just a terrible process to go through, but if you're thinking about doing it, I would highly recommend it, it has been worth it, anyways, ha ha ha, um, When I sat for level one, we took the exam at the Georgia World Congress Center. So one of those like massive exhibition halls where literally there's like a thousand people taking the exam. Because there's only a few places in the United States where you can take it and thankfully Atlanta is one of them. When I sat for level one, I looked around and it was 50 50 men and women taking the test. And the next year. When I sat for level 2, it was 75 percent male, 25 percent female. And I was like, okay, that's weird, because I don't think it's a matter of women not passing at the same rate. There's gotta be something else. When I got to level 3, it was about 90 percent male, 10 percent female.

Elizabeth Cheney: 25:46

Wow.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 25:47

when I passed and I received my charter. That's like, there's this ceremony and you walk across the stage and receive your charter. Um, the ceremony in Atlanta, the year I received my charter, there were about 50 of us who received a charter. And it was me and one other woman who walked across that stage.

Elizabeth Cheney: 26:13

I just got goosebumps.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 26:14

Yeah, I There is not one ounce of me that believes women did not pass at the same rate that men passed. I think, on the one hand, life is happening for women at this age where they're having children, or having caregiving responsibilities, and the weight of also doing this exam is just too much. I also think there's this misconception of the industry that there's no work life balance, and that you can't have a family and work in this industry because of movies like Wolf on Wall Street. you know, I've thought finance was investment banking and working on Wall Street, and I cannot tell you the relief and joy it is to me that I Found my career in wealth management where I get to use the analytical side of my brain. Um, I feel challenged, I feel extremely fulfilled, but I also have a wonderful work life balance. I get to use the relational side. I'm a woman, like I love talking in the relationships and working with clients and helping people. and I get paid really well. And I think, um, the financial industry, I mean, We're always going to be somewhat villainized, you know, think of like the financial crisis, it was because of the banks and people being greedy, and then, you know, the movies that come out about that are all about men and greed and, you know, total collapses of economies, and of course a woman doesn't want to get involved with that. As, as I mentioned, we are wired for social harmony.

Elizabeth Cheney: 28:09

Right.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 28:10

Uh, you know, and. Traditionally, I think the industry is, is designed with this mindset of winner takes all, zero sum game, like there's only one winner and everyone else is a loser. And that's simply not the case. It, at all. We can all have a piece of the pie. so Yeah, I think your question was like, why are we even in this situation and that's what I would say is like, we've had not had access until recent history, and then, you know, The industry just has a terrible reputation, and no one's really trying to change that in terms of attract, I mean, I know the big places are trying to attract more women, but like, they're not doing a good enough job saying that you can have a work life balance. And there's other options outside of Wall Street. Mm

Elizabeth Cheney: 29:02

Interesting. You know, all I have to say with this is I did not know, I mean, I have lots of say, but the level of nuance around all of this and just without even knowing all of that and like how I have I don't deserve to have a financial conversation. I am insecure in my financial success, financial wellness, and it's, it's ingrained. Like it's just part of like how society is structured at the moment. So, interesting. All right. So if we can acknowledge that, all right, maybe we are a little bit at an unfair advantage, you know, disadvantage. We're going to change that. we structure how we feel about finances. Like, I think that's such a great point. Like all the points you made about one, how women are designed biologically. Okay. But to just, okay, there's already setbacks against it. So you're feeling insecure. Take a deep breath. It's okay. The system was made against you. So easily that like right there takes some shame away. So financial wellness, you talk about the self care aspect. I love that. Like self care. You put a face mask on, you go meditate, you go for a walk, you make a healthy meal, something like that. So when I was thinking about what are my financial wellness things that I could do I was thinking like maybe sticking to a budget, but like what's a budget? That's such a broad question Everyone has their version of a budget another thing I thought about is okay, like maybe at the end of each month taking inventory of my finances, you look at that actual monthly statement, you go through and see where your money's going. First off, am I on the right path there when you're talking about like self care, financial wellness things, or am I kind of off my path there or what are other, examples you can give and what you think when you think of your financial wellness.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 30:43

You are absolutely on the right path. Something I advocate is called a money check in. This is the brushing your teeth, just like the regular thing that you do. It's in your routine, and it's no big deal. For me, I do it on the first and fifteenth of every month, which are paydays. And I just have this system. It's very straightforward, and I just I look at every single one of my accounts. I see what's changed. I kind of have a mental tab of things that need to happen like, you know, pay off the credit card bill on the 15th, move, you know, money from this account to savings account, high yield, that kind of thing. but making that, putting your eyes on your accounts twice a month. It does so much for your financial wellness. It gives you a constant pulse on where you stand financially, so that when the things happen, when life happens, and you're like, Urgh! Shit! you know, you don't have to stress about, paying for this because You know that you have the money for it, or, you know where you're gonna take it from, or you know how to solve it because you have a pulse on your situation, so if, if, even that is too intimidating, even, you know, because budgeting, you're right, like, where do I even start? There's so many different systems out there, Maybe just track your spending, like keep a spending log. Like I'm not saying review your credit card statement because that's too easy. I'm saying keep a note on your phone or a little journal and every single expense you write it down. And I guarantee you within the month, you'll be like, Oh, wow, I see some patterns and you will have a very good idea of changes that can happen.

Elizabeth Cheney: 32:33

It's almost like a habit tracker, but like a spending tracker.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 32:36

Yeah.

Elizabeth Cheney: 32:37

thank you for also acknowledging the intimidation around a budget or just this conversation. Because, like, as you were answering my question, I was also thinking to myself, is it weird or silly that, like, that intimidates me? Like, it's not that my spending is obnoxious, but I've never actually grounded myself to do that it's like, I'm. Already thinking, Oh, it's going to be doom and gloom, even though probably not. It's just like all this anxiety attached to it. And I don't know if that's because of my inexperience with financial, control and establishment, but it's just, I just want to say thank you for saying that. Cause it is intimidating and I feel very validated.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 33:13

I'm glad I could help. you know, the money check in, it will help you get more confident with your money. That's why I'm such an advocate of it. Just the, the routine of it. And paying attention to your accounts, you will start to feel more confident and you'll start to explore a little deeper like, okay, what else can I do in this account or what else should I be doing you know, change does not happen overnight. And, financial literacy is something that we are not taught.

Elizabeth Cheney: 33:46

No,

Emilie Dayan Hill: 33:47

jokes, like, instead of, you know, home ec in high school, we need to have a personal budgeting class because, like, no one knows how to do this. Um, and also, you know, parents don't know how to teach their kids. Like, I really don't know a parent who's like, I know exactly how I'm going to teach my children about money. I work in the high net worth space, people who have money, and even they're like, I don't, I don't know what to tell my kids. Like, they, they themselves do not feel empowered with their financial knowledge. Yeah, so just having it as part of your routine, break down that intimidation, chip it away, and then you'll start to grow and feel confident and empowered and start expanding your

Elizabeth Cheney: 34:37

Wow. so that might be a good segue to talk about the financial wellness and growth mindset. Cause like you do things enough, it becomes routine. It becomes a part of who you are, your habits, whatever you grow in your confidence, like me podcasting now versus when I first started, who we are different people, everybody. So you. Push yourself to be more comfortable and less scared and realize, Oh, wow, this is okay. Like, this is not a scary space. It's just me, myself and my expenses. Does that help with your growth mindset and what exactly is a growth mindset versus a scarcity mindset?

Emilie Dayan Hill: 35:10

Mm hmm. How do I even want to get started on this topic? It's like my favorite topic is mindset. Um,

Elizabeth Cheney: 35:19

Oh,

Emilie Dayan Hill: 35:19

Think about your money mindset. What's a negative money thought you have?

Elizabeth Cheney: 35:24

I'm not doing enough, and I have no idea where to start.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 35:28

How is how is that thought helping you?

Elizabeth Cheney: 35:31

Oh, it's not. And it's only making me more insecure and more intimidated to even start, let alone where to start, but just start.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 35:40

Exactly, so The stories we tell ourselves, so that touches on money scripts, which is our money personality, the money stories we tell ourselves. These are things that are ingrained in us from childhood. The stories we tell ourselves and the thoughts we have about money are extremely powerful. And when you have negative thoughts, it is going to prompt. A negative feeling, which is going to result in inaction or a negative action, like, oh fuck it, it doesn't matter, like, I'm just going to do this anyway because it doesn't matter because I don't know anything. Um, I'm already in such a situation, like, it doesn't matter, I can't help it. And then the spiral just continues. Whereas, if you catch yourself in the thought, and that Takes practice. That's another habit. it's a muscle you have to develop to catch yourself in a thought, and the most important thing to do is step one, differentiate between what is the fact, what is the actual situation and what are the facts. You know, everybody in a courtroom would agree on the facts versus what's a thought. And your thought is actually what you have control over. And so think about, how can you reframe, shift a negative thought into a positive thought, into a, a growth mindset thought, that's something you can believe and get behind and then that leads to positive feeling, which motivates you for action. So, you know, I don't know what I'm doing with money. A shift could be. you know, no one talked about money when I was growing up, and now I'm an adult on my own. This is really new for me.

Elizabeth Cheney: 37:39

Wow.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 37:41

You know? And then, that makes you feel, I mean, me personally, shifting my thought that way, makes me feel like, okay, so, this is new, this is kind of exciting, I'm curious. you know, what does curiosity lead you to do? It leads you to, you know, open that high yield savings account and get that interest and meanwhile start researching what else you should be doing. it encourages you to track your spending. You know, this is new for me. I'm not going to change overnight, but this is new for me and I can take baby steps. So the growth mindset, again, that's a part of financial wellness. That's not financial success because financial success will just keep on reaching, whereas financial wellness has a pulse on where you need to be and what is enough and, creating that peace of mind.

Elizabeth Cheney: 38:45

I would say fulfillment

Emilie Dayan Hill: 38:46

Fulfillment, yeah.

Elizabeth Cheney: 38:47

wellness is fulfillment. Success, you're always, it's never enough. You're always reaching and growing. Interesting.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 38:54

There's science behind that. It's called hedonic adaptation. Where any progress we make, our expectation then rises in tandem. So, we never feel like we're there. We've never made it. Like, what we thought was going to make us happy, when we have it, Our expectations have been risen and so now we need more.

Elizabeth Cheney: 39:18

Oh. Interesting. so cultivating money wellness is, At least how I'm interpreting it for me. So this is my personal interpretation. My own issues is, um, issues. Probably the wrong word. My own insecurities is to one, work on that inner narrative. I like that. I mean, and I promote that already in normal day to day thinking. So why would I not promote that in the financial conversation? That's interesting. But I think it all just still comes down to the intimidation factor of it. Because Like I get immobilized, I'll get online, I'll Google an HYSA, a high yield savings account, and then there's 15 different ones and 20, 000 different blog articles telling you which one's the best. And then at the very, very bottom, it's like, by the way, this might've been a paid advertisement. So then I'm like, no, I don't know if I trust this, but then maybe I do, I don't know. So I feel like cultivating financial wellness or for me is stopping the negative narrative. and then just kind of pushing myself like, okay, don't, I'm overwhelmed by all of the chatter and all the different acronyms and different things you need to do and IRAs and Ross and 401ks and like I said, acronyms galore and

Emilie Dayan Hill: 40:27

Too many.

Elizabeth Cheney: 40:27

Yeah, it's like, I feel like the barrier to entry is so high. I'm like, uh,

Emilie Dayan Hill: 40:34

I mean, the reason I'm interested in all this is because of my own money and security. I work in this field and I have the money feelings too. I have, you know, I experience it all. I have my own money script, the way that I was raised around money, my complexes around money. the thing I always tell myself is what is the smallest, right. step I can take today. Like, what is the smallest step I can take towards wherever it is I'm trying to go? I think we tend to try to take too big of a bite when we're trying to make change, and that's unsustainable and unrealistic. Same thing with, becoming You know, whatever wealth actually is to you, which in my opinion is, is actually not based on a specific number, but more of like a state of being. but what is, the smallest thing I can do today to make sure I am going towards that, not away from that. Yeah,

Elizabeth Cheney: 41:38

Let's talk about these money scripts. I'm, I, I love this kind of like personality type thing. I'm not, this is a personality test, but you know what I mean? you mentioned the for money scripts, could you kind of go just a little bit into detail of what each of those are? And if you find yourself as one of those money scripts, like how do you get out of it? Is it just cultivating that financial wellness? So, yeah.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 42:00

so I need to give credit to Brian Klontz. He's the creator of money scripts and he's really a pioneer in the, financial psychology space. So the money scripts that he has identified are, there's four, money avoidance, money worship, money status, and money vigilance. So quickly, each of those. Money avoidance is where you have this negative association with money. You think money is bad, or It's something that you don't deserve. Like, it just brings up all of this negativity in you, and as a result you kind of put your head in the sand like an ostrich.

Elizabeth Cheney: 42:44

Hmm.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 42:45

worship. A person with that money script believes that money solves problems. Money will make it better. It doesn't matter what it is. Just throw money at it like money will solve it. That's a money worship person. Money status. is people who associate self worth with their net worth. And I actually wrote my last, newsletter on this topic. Um, cause I think I fall into that category and it's not even, it's more complicated than that because in our society achievement is, is wrapped up in money. Like you're successful If you're financially successful and, and so then it's like achievement is my self worth and therefore money is my self worth. Like it's a super complicated thing. Anyways, so that's mine. Um,

Elizabeth Cheney: 43:40

I can identify with that as well.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 43:43

and then the fourth one is money vigilance where you have a deep shame around money. you're very secretive about it. it makes me think of, like, squirrels maniacally burying their acorns. Like, to me, that's what I picture with money vigilance. Um, you know, people are kind of paranoid with their money. Don't trust anybody with their money. Keep it under the mattress.

Elizabeth Cheney: 44:08

I'm thinking of, uh, I don't know if you've seen Parks and Rec, but Ron Swanson is coming to mind. He's like, I've got my gold buried all over the, all over the city. I only know where it's at.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 44:16

That guy. Mm

Elizabeth Cheney: 44:20

guess, and I fall in the money status as well, I think, like, definitely, and I feel like a lot of people, I was gonna say, I feel like a lot of us, and probably a lot of, like, people our age, especially, and I wonder if, like, social media plays into that, because status, social media, comparison, that's interesting. And most of these are probably unconscious, even though I'm sure people listening are like, oh, wow, I, I, that's me what she just described. I do that. So how can we work on that? that relationship, that mindset. Oh,

Emilie Dayan Hill: 44:49

money scripts are so deeply ingrained in us. They come from the way that our parents treated money, talked about money, like, the youngest children can feel this. When you ask most people what their earliest money memory is, it's around three years old. Like, I know what my first money memory is, and my first money memory actually has shame involved in it, and I was three,

Elizabeth Cheney: 45:14

What?

Emilie Dayan Hill: 45:14

or four, you know, yeah, and, and it's, it ties into how my parents were with money, and so these things are very deeply ingrained, and even to this day as an adult, like, In my family, there's a money story that people say about me in my family, like, I like expensive things. I'm the expensive one.

Elizabeth Cheney: 45:36

Interesting.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 45:37

say this out loud. You know, so these money scripts, like, they start when we're a child, but they persist, even like, You probably don't even realize it until you start thinking about your money script and it's like, oh wait, like, this is still happening all around me. This money story that is being forced on me. So, that's where the mindset comes in. Uh, identifying versus situation. And taking that thought and

Elizabeth Cheney: 46:08

makes me think about the thought of like money can't buy happiness, which I know money does not buy happiness. I do want to say that part of me always feels like I hear that from people who come from money, or who have money and it's not that money buys happiness, but money. It kind of goes back to when you were talking about your poll and what, how women responded, the security, the safety money buys, peace of mind, money answers. Am I going to be able to feed my child this week? Well, I'd be able to afford rent this month. It is, it's stressors. And you talked about money is the, one of the biggest stressors of not the biggest stressor. So, and I'm using this as an example, because I think it's a pretty common one, but based on everything we're saying and today's episode and what you, what your stance and your platform is, would you say I wrote some notes down, it's focusing on why financial sustainability is important in helps of money stressors versus focusing on what you don't have. So to me, financial wellness in the narrative of money doesn't buy happiness instead of focusing on, I don't have money, so therefore I'm not happy, therefore I can't take care of myself. It's. Money isn't by happiness, no, money by security and safety and it just like even saying that out loud, my shoulders relaxed. I felt less of visceral reaction to it. So, I guess what I'm trying to get around in now, I'm like, is my question lost in this? And maybe it's just more of a talking point is, is that kind of the idea?. So shifting our perspective will also help our Feelings and thoughts around it as well. And that is financial wellness. Wow That was a very long way of me saying that hopefully you gathered. Hopefully you were

Emilie Dayan Hill: 47:42

Yes, I follow. I want to take a couple steps back and talk about the money does not buy happiness. to clarify, up to a certain level, it does increase happiness. Studies have shown, yeah, people have researched this. up to a household making 75, 000 a year. Below that and increasing up to that amount is associated with increased levels of happiness. And I would say that's absolutely because of the optionality that money provides when you have it. And so, like you were saying, like, it's, it's more about the security, the peace of mind. And you have that when you have a certain amount of money, you have that peace of mind because you have options. And so these studies show that that level is about 75, 000 for a household. And then once you start earning more money than that, there's not an associated increase in happiness with the more money you make. And that ties back to that hedonic adaptation that I was talking about where your expectations then increase in tandem. And so you're never.

Elizabeth Cheney: 49:00

Got it.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 49:01

Totally happy. So, yeah. So then taking that to financial, wellness, integrating financial success and financial wellness and like the thing is like how can we be happy then if we're never going to be happy with more money and you're right that's where the financial wellness comes in and to me it is about knowing and identifying what is enough in your life. And to answer that, you have to have an understanding of your purpose and the meaning of your life. And these are things that people just don't take time to think about.

Elizabeth Cheney: 49:44

No,

Emilie Dayan Hill: 49:45

is heavy. It is heavy. It's a little bit existential. You have to, uh, think about some big questions.

Elizabeth Cheney: 49:51

Yeah.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 49:52

introspective, somewhat existential. You know, you have to realize, like, your time here is limited. What are you going to do with it?

Elizabeth Cheney: 49:59

Yeah.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 50:00

so financial wellness is about identifying enough, what is the purpose and meaning of your life? What are the core values through which you live your life? Because that all supports your purpose, you don't really pick your values, your values show up in your life, you know? So, having this understanding of what is enough, what are your values, and then every decision you make in your life, including your money decisions, are tied to that purpose and those values. So that you don't have to strive for more, because you know what enough is. You know why you're here. And you know what enough is for you, and so then you figure out just what it takes to get there, and you have your whole life to get there. It's not a race, it's not, you know, we should not just strive for more for more's sake. You can't do that and be financially well. So, I think because of the masculinity of, I don't know, I don't know. The lingo around money and, the industry, you know, the United States, we're the richest country. And so you would think, like, we wouldn't have problems, but we're extremely unhappy. Money remains one of the greatest stressors in this country, and we have some of the worst income inequality in the world. And I think it's because we're striving for financial success and not for financial wellness. We are not asking ourselves what is enough, what is my purpose, what are my values, and how are all of my decisions, including my decisions with my money, being driven by those values. I hope that answered your question.

Elizabeth Cheney: 51:53

that was snow. That, that was so beautifully said. Like I had goosebumps. Like I need to get that quoted and that needs to be like your staple. Like that was so

Emilie Dayan Hill: 52:03

I'll pin it on my Instagram.

Elizabeth Cheney: 52:12

I feel like I'm just getting so many good nuggets of information. We're talking, but I'm also like going at it in the head right now. And based on what you just said. I think that answers the question of how does financial success and financial wellness coexist. And it is keeping your, Oh man, I'm getting so many goose bumps. I'm sorry. This is so beautiful. This is like so up my alley, but it is like recognizing like your purpose, your, like you said, those core values, your, your grounding, like your foundation. And yes. There's always going to be more. It's easy to fall into that, but as long as you keep grounded with your why, right, that is how you can continue to actually still grow your financial success, but in a healthy way and maintain that financial wellness. Am I right? Or am I wrong?

Emilie Dayan Hill: 53:03

And you know that that drive for financial success, constantly reaching for more. You have referenced several times social media, and that's exactly what it's doing. It's saying, if you're not doing these things, If you're not doing these things with your money, you're doing it wrong, you know, and we should all try to, we can all be millionaires, and that's the whole point, is that we should be millionaires, and it's like, no, that's not the point.

Elizabeth Cheney: 53:28

Thank you. Oh my gosh. Like, and there's so much shame attached to that. Cause then you're like, wow, I am losing out on an opportunity that I still don't even understand how to do it. Right. And all I'm left is with this shame. shame, shame, shame.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 53:41

Those people are not going to be more happy. I guarantee it. Unless they start thinking, unless they are thinking about the money wellness aspect that we just talked about.

Elizabeth Cheney: 53:54

Wow. I love this. and I, I love the idea that it's overwhelming. Yes. So start simply. And if that is even overwhelming, where do I start? Think of financial wellness is self care.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 54:06

hmm.

Elizabeth Cheney: 54:07

And not be intimidated by it. Like you're not scared to brush your teeth. I want to not be scared to go track my spending and that, you know what, I'm going to confidently say that as a 30, almost three, three year old woman.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 54:19

Yep.

Elizabeth Cheney: 54:20

cause it's never too late. That's another thing that I

Emilie Dayan Hill: 54:23

never too late.

Elizabeth Cheney: 54:23

point to mention. Like,

Emilie Dayan Hill: 54:25

That reminds me of your mom's interview. I loved it. I mean, it's never too late to live the life that you want to live.

Elizabeth Cheney: 54:33

exactly. And You have such a beautiful, like different, conversation to bring to this space that we've already acknowledged is overwhelming and intimidating. And that, I don't know, like after this conversation, I do feel financial wellness is something that's attainable. Do I have all the answers? Do I know which percentage of my budget I'm going to figure out? Not quite, not quite yet. That's okay. But we're going to start small. We're going to see what's the track our spending for us. Let's see where we're going. Like you said, like, I'm sure that's going to be very eyeopening.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 55:02

Yeah, and let me just tell you, the way you do it and the way that's going to be right for you is going to be completely unique for you. Because there is no one right way to do money. And that's my other beef with these people on social media who are promoting these strategies and different types of accounts. And it's like, no, like, that might not serve this person's, objective. everybody's situation is so unique. And so if your path looks different, that's beautiful. Like, you do you. Figure out what works for you. There is not one size fits all.

Elizabeth Cheney: 55:40

thank you for saying that because, like, the next question I was about to ask or, or say is like, sometimes it feels like it's just 1 size fits all approach. And it's like, but it doesn't work. And then boom, you took the words out of my mouth without me even having to think. So 1, thanks for being on the same brainwave with me.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 55:54

Yep.

Elizabeth Cheney: 55:55

But 2, but thank you for saying that. Because at least for me speaking, and I'm sure other people listening are going to feel the same way. It does feel like that sometimes. And then also it's like. One size fits all but like it's one size fits all with like 30, 000 things you should be doing and you're like Mayday

Emilie Dayan Hill: 56:12

no, I mean, it's, it's, what's the word I'm looking for? Like prevalent, but in a negative way. Like That is how the industry runs. That's how advisors work. It's just like, you need to be doing this. One size fits all. It's like, no.

Elizabeth Cheney: 56:27

No, it's not. Thank you. I feel like after this conversation, I'm going to look at all the different people I follow through a different lens. Um, in a better lens though, in a more healthier, like, I'm not going to take this as like a slight to me or like, oh, I'm not good enough. It's like, oh, this is interesting. What could I get from this with the assumption that it's not exactly what I need, but who knows? Maybe it is, but

Emilie Dayan Hill: 56:50

This could be a tool for me, but it might not be. Yeah.

Elizabeth Cheney: 56:55

exactly. so. We're kind of getting towards the end here. So I want to talk about what, what are your goals with finance that feels, and I subscribed to the sub stack and I'm going to make sure I link all of that in the show notes. Everyone listening, you have to sign up for Emilie's newsletter because it's different. It is a different conversation around financial. Wellness and wealth and success and all these different things. It's introspective. I mean, I've done some of your journal prompts that have given me so much clarity that I've never even thought to think about in terms of finance. And I love introspective existential things. I always joke, my religion's existentialism. So

Emilie Dayan Hill: 57:34

This is why we were fast friends.

Elizabeth Cheney: 57:36

Yes, exactly. So what is the future of finance? It feels, what would be not even end game. Cause like that's limiting us. Like what are, what, what are your goals with finance? That feels,

Emilie Dayan Hill: 57:47

I want the industry to change. I, you know, I, I want us to use a different language around money. I want it to be more inclusive. I want women to feel empowered and have a seat at the table and, You know, bring some femininity to the conversation. because everybody would benefit from that. I would love to write a book one day. I love writing and thinking about this and, you know, I just want to make the industry a better place. I want women to feel empowered and confident and to know that they should be asking questions. Like if, if you get anything from my Instagram account or, or Substack, I hope it's the confidence. That yes, you should be asking questions. Like, don't just take what they're saying. You should be asking questions. That's what my job is as an advisor. Like, to answer your questions. Like, push back. You know, let's talk about it. women need to feel confident to do that. To catch up with the, wealth inequality that we face.

Elizabeth Cheney: 58:59

Yeah. Hmm. Emilie, what a beautiful conversation from such a unique perspective, one that should be more mainstream in my opinion. So I'm sure everyone listening is going to want to go follow you and get all of that beautiful, healthy, financial wisdom, financial, introspection. Yeah, I think it is a psychology of our relationship. And like you said, it's personal and unique and there's no one size fits all. And also everyone listening, maybe you're intimidated by this conversation. Maybe you're like me sitting here going, Whoa, I need to go decompress. That was amazing. I got some things to work on. Where do I start? Just start small. Maybe even as simply like if you feel a negative emotion, a negative pull towards anything, whether you see a post, whether it's like you need to invest this, okay, you need to save 40 percent of your salary and you're like, well, I can't, I got to pay childcare. Anything that makes you feel negative, start asking, why am I feeling that way? Where is the insecurity pulling from? Deconstruct that start re shifting the narrative. You are not less than you are not less than. Change the perspective, change the narrative, Develop financial wellness. I just think that's so beautiful. So Emilie, for everyone who now wants to seek that existential introspection and positive relationship with finance, and maybe even acclimate more to the financial world, where can everyone find you?

Emilie Dayan Hill: 1:00:23

You can find me@financethatfeels.com and that will take you to my newsletter where you can subscribe. And then it's all linked to my Instagram and the other places that you can find me on Instagram. Um, at Emilie Dion Hill, E-M-I-L-I-E-D-A-Y-A-N-H-I-L-L. And I'll, I'll assign a, a homework. Prompt, if that's okay.

Elizabeth Cheney: 1:00:49

Ooh, yes.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 1:00:50

Journal your first money memory. Write about your first money memory.

Elizabeth Cheney: 1:00:57

Okay.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 1:00:58

Yeah.

Elizabeth Cheney: 1:00:59

I'm thinking about mine and I'm not gonna lie. I'm a little, I don't really want to share it cause it's like there's some negative emotions attached to it. But that's great. Start there, start, start where it all began.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 1:01:09

Exactly. Exactly.

Elizabeth Cheney: 1:01:12

it. yeah, go follow Emilie. She is the, a positive corner of the internet and it's a corner now, but it's mainstaged before long because this is the shift we need. I think this is the type of conversation and shift we need because money is so personal. It's so personal and it's so Our society has made it such a stance, like a status, like we talked about. And, um, I think if there is one thing that we need in order to survive, this really super capitalistic society is our grounding in our financial. knowledge or financial feelings. So Emilie is the person to help you with that. She is going to guide you and, and not that she's telling you, she's just going to ask you questions that make you find that within yourself. And that is the beauty. Um, because as long as you feel it and believe it, then that's where that foundation stays. And again, we're not all perfect. So I say all this and I'm like, yeah, gosh, I'm going to go and do all this. And then, you know, I'm going to go by door dash all day next week. So live and we learn baby steps. But Emilie, thank you so much. This was such a beautiful conversation. You have like, I'm so glad you felt empowered to lead this idea, this space, this, um, conversation. It's mindset because I didn't know I needed it, but dang it if I did, and I know I'm not the only person. So thank you.

Emilie Dayan Hill: 1:02:34

thank you so much for having me, Elizabeth. I really enjoyed this conversation.

Elizabeth Cheney: 1:02:38

We'll have to have you come back on and, uh, we'll talk, gosh, I feel like there's like so many other things, like I'm going to do my own financial wellness homework. And then, you know, maybe next steps are like, all right, so now that we have figured out some of these acronyms, what are actual. Investment funds. I'm just kidding. That might get too granular. and then we

Emilie Dayan Hill: 1:02:56

Well, like a 101 type course.

Elizabeth Cheney: 1:02:59

I would love that. Um, because I'm very, very, um, I almost said dumb. I don't want to use that

Emilie Dayan Hill: 1:03:04

Mm hmm.

Elizabeth Cheney: 1:03:05

very. Naive

Emilie Dayan Hill: 1:03:07

This

Elizabeth Cheney: 1:03:08

yeah, there we go. That's. There we go. Beautiful, much more positive conversation or or mindset. I love that perspective. Well, thank you, Emilie. And, uh, yes, for everyone listening, I'm going to make sure I link her in the show notes so you can find her on Instagram, on social media, check out her website, sign up for her sub stack. You will not, regret it. It is fantastic. and for those listening, you can find me on Instagram at Elizabeth Cheney underscore and at end up between pod. And for those who are listening, who may want to. See our lovely faces. This is also on YouTube. So until then, Emilie, thank you. And I will see everyone on another in between next week. Bye.