Matt McCullin, ANECA Federal Credit Union (LA)

In episode 10, Matt McCullin, Chief Financial Officer at ANECA Federal Credit Union in Shreveport, LA joins the show. Matt, Vin, and Zach explore a wide range of topics, including Matt’s time in the banking and public accounting industries prior to his arrival at ANECA, being an opportunistic banker, not sweating the small stuff, and the "unfathomable" Karl Malone.

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Transcript

[Vinny, 00:06]

Welcome to "On the Balance Sheet," Season 2, Episode 10. Today, we have Matt McCullin, Chief Financial Officer at ANECA Credit Union, and he is located in Shreveport, Louisiana.

[Zach, 00:00:17]

Yeah, Vin, we're really excited to have Matt on the podcast today. I've known him for a number of years now, and it's always a great treat going down to meet him in Shreveport. He's got a pretty interesting story and background coming from the banking industry, going over to the credit union space, which I think, you know, we've had a few folks on before who have done that. So I think that will be really interesting to hear about, and we get a few of the things we definitely want to talk about what they're doing down there, just the whole Shreveport area and what that's like and what he sees as some opportunities and threats in their market, but also just globally in the banking industry. So I think it'll be a pretty good episode, and we're really excited to have Matt on. 

[Vinny, 00:00:51]

Yeah, definitely looking forward to it. So without further ado, Matt McCollin. 

[Zach, 00:01:00] 

And welcome back to "On the Balance Sheet." We have a very special guest here with us today. It's Matt McCullin, Chief Financial Officer at ANECA Federal Credit Union in Shreveport, Louisiana. Matt, how are you doing today? 

[Matt, 00:01:13]

I'm good, Zach. How are you? 

[Zach, 00:01:15]

 I'm doing terrific. Thanks again, you know, for giving us some of your time. And I know the listeners will really appreciate kind of your background, your story, and what you guys have going on down there. So to start, could you just walk us through kind of how you got into the banking industry and kind of what led you to taking the job over at ANECA Federal Credit Union?

[Matt 00:01:31]

Sure thing. I started in banking back in high school, back in 2001, worked at a community bank in Shreveport, Louisiana, a large metropolis there at the time, the bank was named Community Trust Bank.  In 2001, $273 million in assets. So pretty small operation at the time. I started out in the mailroom.   We had a debit card reissue that I recall and a lot of return mail to work from that so. 

Fast forward from there. Eventually, they gave me more and more things to do, worked there through college, in the summers, things like that worked as a teller. You know, loan administration eventually into IT that was my degree at the time I was going to college in computer information systems, so finished IT left there in 2007.  I went into public accounting briefly, had some great mentors there and that's kind of when I got hooked into accounting there and Chris Barr, Matt Woodard, give them a shout out, really helped me along there, and then in 2012 Community Trust was looking to go public, and they were kind of assembling more accounting staff to do that. And so they brought me back in there. I'm still, you know, on good terms with everybody. And that's where really, you know, things career-wise started to take off. You know I got to see everything basically as there is to see. So at that time the bank was $2.5 billion in assets, up from the $273 million, and you know today I believe it just crossed over $10 billion last quarter. 

So very thankful to all those guys, Stacy, Robert in particular. I believe, you know, Robert, actually, Robert Traylor, at Horicon Bank now. So yeah. And then so I left there. 

[ 00:03:22]

We do. 

[Matt 00:03:25]

Left the bank in 2016, put out my own shingle as a public accountant, and you know I'd always wanted to try that. And it was mostly tax and consulting, that kind of thing. And the practice was going pretty well, you know, one day I was on Indeed, looking for the staff for myself. And saw the add that ANECA had out for CFO. Yeah, I figure at the worst that would have some new contacts and, you know that you expand the network a little bit and met with the guys, met with the CEO and everybody, and kind of the rest is history. I decided after a long time thinking about it, hey, I'll take another shot at banking. One more time. And I think if you had told me that a year later or year and a half later, we'd be going. Into COVID and the. the rate situation we're in now, I might have reconsidered that. 

[Zach, 00:04:18]2 If only that crystal ball, right?

[Matt, 00:04:21]

Right, right. 

[Zach, 00:04:23]

Matt, I think that's a really interesting kind of head start or kind of segue into going from a bigger bank, or I guess you started, they were smaller when you started, and they grew over time, and when you were there for a couple of different stints. But what did you learn, you know, kind of working from that type of atmosphere over to ANECA, which is in the what, $200 million, $250 million asset range, right, you know?   Kind of overall. So you're kind of back to where you started 20 years ago. So have you learned any lessons or learned anything from working in the banking industry and a growing bank to where you guys are? 

[Matt 00:04:59]

Absolutely. As I said, if I take away any big point, it's don't sweat the small stuff. When you're in a rapidly growing organization, when I joined ANECA, we were just over $100 million. I mean, like 102, something like that. I think today, five years later, through COVID and through all this, we just crossed $225. So we've more than doubled since the time I've joined. And when you're in a rapidly growing operation, there will be more work than you can do. And it's critical that you're able to distinguish between the work that matters and the work that may be important, and it's precise, but at the end of the day, it's not going to move the needle whatsoever. So allocating resources in that regard has been a challenge because the accountant, CPA CFOs, we like for every little thing to balance, tick, and tie. Sometimes you're not going to get that.   So that's been a challenge trying to focus on materiality and get kind of myself out of that precision game and into a, you know, if this is off a few dollars, we can't spend any time on it at all. Like we have to go into the big stuff. 

[Zach, 00:06:14] So I think with that and you being at ANECA now, now for what almost been almost five years overall. 

[Matt 00:06:18]

Yes, sir. Yeah. Five years as of last week. 

[Zach, 00:06:20]

So at this pace, I mean, you doubled in five years. I mean, you'll be a billion dollars before you know it here, right in the next decade. But do you have plans, but you and David in terms of what you guys are up to now, how do you kind of see Annika grow? And what excites you about working there right now?

[Matt 00:06:33]

Right now, you know, it's the continued growth prospect. You're familiar kind of with our balance sheet and the exceptional amount of capital that we have to deploy, very unusual to find that in a smaller institution. You know, can't necessarily raise capital. So it's just there. So the plans now, we NCUA granted us a charter change a few weeks back and with that charter change, we really are going to be able to expand the territories and memberships that we can bring in. And that's been one of our biggest, if not the biggest limiting factor in the last few years was being able to expand to neighboring areas, and certainly now we can officially do that as of two weeks ago. So we've actually already started. And from here, we've opened two new branches this year. So the challenge in the short term is to get those up and running and profitable, then from there on, we are looking at various merger opportunities to be the surviving entity, not the merged entity of course, so. That is how we see ourselves growing over the next few years. We're investing tremendously in technology, especially online and digital things to bring in new membership that way as well.

[Vinny,  00:07:57]

Matt - Vinny Clevenger, thanks again for joining us. And just to follow up on what you just talked about, which I think is no small thing, is that charter change. For those sort of uninitiated, can you talk about what kind of goes into that process? I mean, obviously, if a banker who's listening to this probably has steam coming out of their ears, but that aside, I'd really like to hear how that process sort of works and how you, I guess, would have to sell that idea, that strategy, if you will, to the NCUA for, you know, so they ratify that. 

[Matt 00:08:26]

Absolutely. And for bankers listening, I've been on both sides of this fence. I will keep it as friendly as possible, so yeah. So it was not easy for the bank. It was not a turn-in-an-application, check-the-box, oh, here's your new membership charter change. Absolutely not. We started this 2 1/2 years ago, so if that's any indication, they were extremely skeptical that a small credit union could service these areas in low-income area membership that we applied to do so. We even had to hire consultants to kind of analyze and submit the plans and help us with the back and forth with the NCUA way to do this. So essentially what goes into it, you have to have a marketing plan, you have to have budgets, projections, and you have to be able to prove to them that you will be able to do what you're going to do. Realistically, no pie-in-the-sky type of projections. They fall back on that pretty aggressively, so it was not an easy process by any means, and it started with I just wanted the next parish over. For those not from Louisiana, parishes are counties in this state. So I really just wanted one county over and after 2 1/2 years, we got a pretty significant low-income geography into much further south than we are and then slightly into Texas, slightly in Arkansas. For those not familiar with Shreveport, it is in the corner, kind of in the upper left corner of Louisiana, and we are 100 miles from Oklahoma, Texas, and Arkansas. So we're kind of in the border of all of those states. So that is our intention. We intend to grow. Digitally online, via mail, potentially acquisitions in those areas, and potentially branches in those areas as well. It's not ruled out at all, so.  Multifaceted strategy to grow into these new zones. 

[Vinny, 00:10:33]

 Thanks so much for that. And I do know Shreveport and I will tell you, do not fly in there on the last flight and think you have a Hertz car reserved because Zach and I have both fought that losing battle and had to walk from the terminal to that whatever that hotel is across the street and spend 5 hours for, anyways, goes without saying. 

[Matt, 00:10:48]

Yeah, I can't confirm or deny the hotel may be in cahoots with the car rental places. 

[Vinny, 00:10:55]

It probably is, but you want to see some angry individuals show up at that airport on the last flight in around 11:00 and go to the Hertz terminal and there's no cars, but yet somehow at 6:00 AM the next morning they magically appear and you have a car. Anyways, one more follow-up on that. Like when you're submitting your projections and your budgets and so forth, like just a number if you will, and I, we don't need to know the special sauce or anything, but what percentage type of increase to your overall membership, like today you have X amount of members, what percentage would you folks expect to see an increase in the actual membership of the credit union? 

[Matt 00:11:31]

Realistically, between 10 and 20%, something like that, over time, as we kind of fan out. Branching into a market that you don't already have a presence in, it's a slow process. It just takes time to get the branch up, to get the membership, to convince them to come in versus whatever they're doing now. So yeah, that's kind of where we're targeting. 

[Zach, 00:11:53]

Matt, in kind of the same spirit for this conversation, you mentioned CDFI before and again, for those who may not be as well versed in those acronyms, can you just explain to listeners what CDFI means? How that's been maybe a benefit for you folks, but also a challenge in the same light in terms of your growth plans and how you operate day to day. 

[Matt, 00:12:15]

Absolutely. So CDFI stands for Community Development Financial Institution. It is an office in the US Treasury Department, and the designation you have to apply for it. It is not just limited to credit unions. So a lot of people think that.  A bank can be a CFI, normal bank, or a Minority Depository Institution or Community Development Fund. You know, it's not just limited to credit unions, although credit unions are probably most of the membership. That means that one of my main competitors is a bank that is a CDFI designated institution, so. For the bankers on the call, that is absolutely available for everybody. What it means is the office designates particular areas of the country, particular census tracts, and this is, I'm being very general, that it would like to stimulate with economic resources. And if you service those areas or you are willing to make loans or produce financial products in those areas, maybe help the unbanked or underbanked. It could be anything, deposits, loans, all kinds of different programs that they allow or that they will provide funding for. What you do is they have competitive grant rounds annually. And you send them your pitch, essentially what you would like to do, how much you would need to do it, what you want to use the funding for, whether it be new loan products to keep your reserves in check, to add capital, to produce new branches in underserved areas, that kind of thing. The idea is to get U.S. Treasury money to underserved areas through CDFI designated institutions.

[ Zach, 00:13:53]

So, Matt, along that same vein, we might call this episode The Acronym episode because of CDFI, you had the ability to access the Treasury’s ECIP program during Covid.  Can you describe a little more about what that program was, the application process, and kind of what was the end result for you folks and maybe other folks that you know were in the program, as well.

[Matt, 00:14:21]

That's correct. So ECP was the Emergency Capital Investment Program from U.S. Treasury, and it was one of the many programs that spawned out of COVID and the various risks that came about during and directly after COVID. How it works is it is a loan to financial institutions on a 30-year term, and payback begins year 26 to 30. So, toward the end of my career, and so banks and credit unions were both eligible for the funding. For banks, it operates like preferred stock, and for us, for credit unions, it was a little different because credit unions, I don't believe, really had any experience with anything like this. So they had to kind of create something new. The NCUA ultimately, I believe, set it up as the secondary capital offering. Normally, that's the private market offering. You have to get NCUA approval for it - takes over a year and then a month to get that kind of thing. And they kind of, since the Treasury was pushing it, Congress was pushing it, they did their very best to shortcut it as much as possible, their approval, so that we can all issue secondary capital, which comes with other challenges. What if you already had secondary capital or you purchased other people's secondary capital? They had to work through it. They had to create all kinds of grandfathering to get this thing off the ground. So finally they got it off the ground, and several institutions in my area received it. Not going to name names for those that maybe don't want to be named, but it is public record, and the interest rate on that is actually determined.  It's a tiered system determined by how well you spend the money, like if you get the money lent the way they want it lent, and the way they want it lent Is an entire laundry list of available products, loans, different things like that. So, they want their money invested and reinvested in the communities, which so far, we are in the second tier as of our last reporting, and you have two years to get it invested in such a way that you could earn; I guess it's an earn down of the interest rate though. Yep. So, we are progressing along with it. We are on target to hit the lowest tier or I guess the best outcomes here for everybody. 

[Vinny, 00:16:38]

Matt, thanks so much for that answer. Quick question. I want to transition maybe more a little bit specific to your membership and how it's sort of behaved through not only just the COVID time period. We've talked here about how you folks have doubled in size, but more recently, I mean, obviously, we've seen interest rates move significantly. I will tell you, anecdotally, we’re clearly seeing deposits move out of the system. By and large, credit unions have dealt with, I think, fared pretty well, it seems like because on average, their deposit balances are a little bit lower than some of the larger institutions. How would you characterize your memberships, that deposit, you know, those balances, and what's going on within/under the surface there in your membership on the deposit side? 

[Matt 00:17:24]

Yes, that is what keeps me up at night. As you mentioned, every bank and credit union CFO across the country, we stay up all night kind of worrying about this. I have noticed extreme deposit outflows from the banks - where it's different with us is we did not have a very large, not a low interest like savings account type deposit franchise to begin with. A lot of our members, a lot of our membership is CDs, money markets, it's very rate-sensitive money to start with. It's a challenge from the day I walked into it and continues to today. I don't think every credit union is like that. I think my credit union is just like that specifically. I'm one of your few liability-sensitive institutions, and the challenge with that is I have had to rapidly raise rates and keep our betas hot just to keep deposits flat. You know, as you guys know, we're fully kind of lent out. We run about 100 to 110% loans to deposits, give or take somewhere in that ratio all the time. So, I have very little tolerance for large deposit outflows, which translates to I will have to pay the interest rates that the market and the depositors demand, and so you know, like everybody else, I've kept up with or I've tried to lag it as much as possible and tried to be as reasonable as possible with it. But by the end of the day, that's what it takes to keep the deposits in. The depositors will stay. If they can get a rate, so I think what you're seeing in, especially in the FDIC data, that's showing some of the worst deposit outflows of all time or at least in my lifetime. That you know, it's people buying treasuries, they're moving money to like, your Edward Jones and Fidelity type situations and buying just DTCs with it, you know, 5% plus. Is a great deal for depositors, so if they can get it, I certainly don't begrudge it to them. So, I think that's really what you're seeing. And plus you're seeing excess savings come down, excess deposit accounts comes down because we're in a low income area, and most of our membership is of this type, low income. We didn't see the like demand deposit outflow part of it at all because there was not a lot there to start with. What we have seen is CD churn but not in savings accounts. Not a lot of churn there. We have seen some money market churn for sure, so that kind of thing, it's just a battle every day, and I imagine it is with every FI. 

[Vin 00:19:56]

Yeah. And that there's no doubt about it, clearly is probably the first, second, and third thing we talk about in every single meeting these days. It's just, you know, you know, kind of nothing else, it's more a therapy session because we've finally now reached that point where folks lagged forever and now they can't really do that. But before I hand it back to Zach. I do want to mention that you are not one of the very few liability-sensitive institutions. Virtually everyone looks like that now, and you really go back and think about it. You've got all these legacy assets that were put on in ‘20 and ‘21 and ‘22, and now rates are 500 plus basis points higher. Just by virtue of your, you know, all these balance sheets now have reached the point where there aren't too many who really want rates to continue to move up. It's that that would be the exception than the rule. You know in COVID it was if you're still liability-sensitive in COVID, then you were really liability-sensitive. But today you can't really find too many. I don't want you to single yourself out. Right, Zach? 

[Zach 00:20:54]

No, no, absolutely. I think a lot of groups became a lot more liability-sensitive, but to Matt's point too, I think we saw some things during COVID that to your latter point they were kind of like that, which is why, you know, he did some things and we talked through some things to kind of protect themselves, and I think they get a pretty diverse funding mix across the board right now with some non-maturity CDs wholesale, right? You're not afraid of using wholesale and being opportunistic there when you need to be. And that brings me to kind of my next question, which is obviously the deposit arena is the #1 challenge or has been for the last 12 months. But Matt, what do you see going forward here in the next couple of years as not just for you maybe, but for the industry, right, as someone who has more than a few years left in this industry, hopefully what do you see as the biggest challenges in the banking, credit union industry and maybe you can spin it into maybe some opportunities as well? 

[Matt 00:21:49]

Absolutely. And I'll preface what you just said with, one of the first things I did when I got to ANECA was I got it on an audit schedule and program and deeply increased our involvement with the Federal Home Loan Bank. And I couldn't say enough good things about FHLB Dallas and what we did through the rate rise and through the entire hiking cycle is we would layer on advances and layer on, like that fixed rate, long-term, non-member CD, and that really kind of gave us the flexibility to continue lending to the membership where without it, I'm not sure that we could have done that, certainly not to the extent that we've done it.  So, deposits going forward? As you know, I'm staunchly and firmly in the higher-for-longer camp. If we get rate cuts next year, I think they will be shallow. I think you're looking at the 10-year is going to stay above 4. I'm not saying that one month or the overnight rates have to stay above 5, but I think 4 is 4 and up are the numbers and that's what I'm planning for is deposit rate. And rollovers, maturities, anything like that is going to be 4 to 5% in that area is what I'm kind of targeting for forecast and budget. What that means is that loans are going to be 6-7-8 for the foreseeable future. Now that that's tougher for us, we're in a lower income area, and everybody's monthly payments are significantly higher. You know, even $1,500 a month for a lot of our membership is a significant financial strain, so it is going to be tough to keep lending rates in line to be able to just afford the deposit. So that's where I see it. I see if the large deposit franchises the longer rates are up like this. The more that the non or low interest deposits are going to trickle out. It doesn't have to be a river or a dam break or anything like that. It could be just a couple percent a month, but that will continue, I think, as long as deposit rate, CD rates, money market rates are above 4.  Now at some places, as long as those rates are higher, you're going to see deposit outflows continue until everybody’s comfortable with it, or until it reaches some type of equilibrium. I don't think we're there today by any means. 

Zach, 00:24:40] 

Is this where, too, we spend a lot of time on the funding side or deposit side you mentioned at the start talking about technology and investments that you're making. Is a lot of it on the maybe the member experience or Member funding side. To be able to be the. place you know. Where they give you their funds. So, you have that raw material so you know can you give a little more insight into what you guys are doing on the investment side of technology?

[Matt, 00:24:430

Exactly, so we are, we’re investing heavily on the channel communications, so actually did a trial with one division in the credit union that would communicate with membership via text message as an official trial for that and it worked so well that we’re rolling it out to the entire organization.  We found that, especially the younger generation, that is how they would prefer to communicate.  It comes down to sometimes they won’t answer a phone call.  They won’t answer an email at all, period.  It’s not a preference.  It’s just that they prefer a text over phone call, it’s the only way you can reach them, and so that was a little eye opening especially if us, you and me, you know if the bank is trying to reach you about something it’s moderately important, you should probably at least talk to them.  No. Not today.  They will text you back, however, more than they will any other communications channel.  So, we are investing heavily in that.  We’re investing in online account opening where people can – we are getting ourselves listed on various rate services rate aggregating where more wealthy people go to shop for the best deposit rates or try to get more or make some headway into that just diversify the deposit mix a bit because right now it is very concentrated into just this local area.  I would like to have more national exposure in different types of deposits, things like that, so it’s not so heavily weighted here, one of the industries here is oil and gas, the industry oil and gas, more gas than oil, but typically a lot of the wealth in this area has come from that.  I would like to possibly separate or use the oil and gas – that comes every year.  It would be nice to work that out where I would have a more diversified deposit mix.

[Zach, 00:26:43]

Matt, that makes perfect sense and I think that’s where we’re going.  The rest of this decade and going forward, dynamics are certainly changing on the funding mix  whether it’s Covid or and this rapid increase in rates has certainly catalyzed that.  People realize, hey I can get 4 or 5% here or there, and I want it to be easy, I want it on my phone.  And I think you guys are doing the right thing to position yourselves to be able to keep thriving in the next couple of cycles here or I guess whatever comes next.  Matt, last question for you here, I know you are esteemed Louisiana Tech Alum, have you ever seen Karl Malone kicking around Shreveport or around the University?

[Matt, 00:27:34]

I actually met Karl once.  It was right when he moved kinda back and he’s got a house. He was setting up various businesses, and he has this convenience store.  He may still have it.  I’m not sure; I moved away.   He had just set the thing up, he had bought the land next to it, and he was setting up a bunch of different shops.  He was there, like physically, overseeing them, making sure they got up and running and things like that.  He wanted to meet everybody and check their info and cuz it was no less than 2 miles from my house, and he set up all the businesses between them.  You see him on tv, you’ve seen his picture.  He’s 6’9”, 6’10”, something like that.  Those are numbers until you walk up to the man and shake his hand.  It’s like, “Hello, sir.  How’re you doing?”  He’s so tall; it’s really unfathomable unless you meet him or somebody like him.  That was really the story I have there, just blown away, like, he’d probably have a hard time beating me up because he’d have to punch down so far to hit me.  I could just squat and he can’t get me unless he’s going to kick me or something.  It’s just he’s unfathomably tall.  Absolutely, he could even, blindfolded, he could spin around 3 ways and he could crush me like a basketball, no problem at all.

[[Zach 00:28:49]

Vin and I really want to thank you, Matt today, for the time and walking through kind of what you guys are up to and what's going on down in Shreveport and kind of your background. So, thanks again. We really appreciate it. 

[Matt:  00:28:09]
 For sure.  Thank you.

[Zach, 00:29:00] 

And we are back - On The Balance Sheet and just want to thank Matt for giving us his time this morning. I thought it was a really, you know, fun interview Vin. And he's got a lot of things we talked about both on and off air afterwards. He's a great guy, but one take away is we always kind of go through at the end here and for those of you, I think you got a taste of how opportunistic they are him, and Matt and David and the credit union are in terms of the ESIP program or leveraging capital, the Charter change, the new branches, these guys are, yes, they're smaller if you want to call it, you know $225 million. This is certainly a smaller institution, but they're always looking for ways to enhance the credit union, make money, invest in their people, invest in technology and they'll look at things that, I mean, I have bigger banks and will look at things that they might look at and they may not always do it, but I always love working with these guys and talking with them because they're always willing to look at different ways of moving the balance sheet, making money, locking in expense, and I think it's a really refreshing take. And I think it's going to suit them well, you know, certainly going forward, Vin, how about you, anything you took away from the interview. 

[Vin, 00:30:12]

Yeah, Zach, that was , I actually thought that was really quite interesting, as well, how they were open minded to a lot of different things. But the one thing he said to me that stood out specifically was, “Do not sweat the small stuff,” and that was his advice for those who are kind of going through a rapid expansion of their balance sheet and their businesses. And I think in his prior life I think he had mentioned he went from Community Trust Bank, which grew to a substantial level and now in his current position at ANECA. You know, it sounds like just within five years, they've virtually doubled. So, I thought that's really quite interesting advice, how laser focused you need to be on the things that truly matter. And while there's a lot of little things that kind of go on in the background and are, you know, ultimately they are important. You got to make sure you're allocating all of your time, energy and resources to the things that really, really matter. And that just sounds like a common refrain from so many other smaller institutions - where there are little things they are important, but you have limited resources in many cases and you really got to stay laser focused on what really matters. So, to me that was really interesting advice for those listening and hopefully those who are listening can take that and put it into action but. All in all, a really interesting discussion, and we're very thankful for Matt. So that's a wrap for episode 10. Season 2 of On the Balance Sheet. We look forward to having you join us for our next discussion. 

[Dana, 00:31:37]

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