“Trust But Verify" with Cole Watson of Hoosier Hills CU (IN)

Cole Watson, CFO of Hoosier Hills Credit Union (IN), joins Vin, Zach, and DCG colleague Mike Mitchell for a terrific episode 10 of season 4. The guys dig into Cole’s background as he transitioned into the banking world post-GFC, the importance of having a “curious mind,”  initiating strategic actions at ALCO, and how FIs should embrace culture shifts as deposit gathering becomes more and more important.

For more insights and ideas, visit DCG at DarlingConsulting.com or follow us on LinkedIn.

Transcript

On the Balance Sheet® S4 E10 – “Trust but Verify” with Cole Watson of Hoosier Hills CU (IN)

 Transcript

 [Vinny, 00:07]

Welcome to On the Balance Sheet, Season 4, Episode 10, and today we are joined by Cole Watson. He's the Chief Financial Officer at Hoosier Hills Credit Union. And Zach, really looking forward to this one. 

[Zach, 00:20]

Absolutely, Vin. And we have our colleague, Mike Mitchell, in the studio as well. Mike works with Cole and the rest of the Hoosier Hills team based out of Indiana. And so, we're really happy to have Mike with us today. We have a lot of great questions here for Cole. Hoping to get into some of his background, getting into the industry, talk through Hoosier Hills, what they're about, their kind of growth trajectory, but also Cole's thoughts here in the future of banking and some of the threats and opportunities. So, a pretty action-packed list we have here. And we're very much looking forward to speaking with Cole. 

[Vinny, 00:53]

Yeah. And one other caveat, Cole was a 2008 - 2009 graduate. And it's kind of like our first guest who was kind of born into the recession. So really looking forward to this one. So, without further ado, Cole Watson. 

[Zach, 01:13]

And welcome to On the Balance Sheet. We are very pleased to be joined today by Cole Watson, CFO of Hoosier Hills Credit Union. Cole, how are you doing today? 

[Cole, 01:24]

I'm doing great, guys. Thanks for having me. First time caller, but avid listener. 

[Zach, 01:19]

Hey, we really appreciate that. It's our pleasure. And really, we just wanted to start off the interview as we do with most guests. And could you just walk us through your career journey? Come out of school, working in the private sector at a bigger kind of for accounting firm, and then your transition over to the credit union world, as we say. 

[Cole, 1:49]

Yeah, sure. Sure. So, I was actually an econ grad coming out of school. And so, originally, my thought was, go into banking at some capacity. I had the great fortune of being a senior in 2008 - 2009. So, if you remember, that time frame was not exactly a great time as a young grad to go find a job as an economist in banking. But my dad was a CPA, and I had taken really a substantial amount of accounting courses in college. So, he kind of nudged me when I wasn't successful in finding a job in banking about, hey, why don't you try this? And so, I actually ended up working as a staff accountant right out of school. And that is when accounting really clicked for me. I'm more of a hands-on person and to see it applied in the context of running a business... The old adage, accounting is the language of business, that for the first time, I think really rung true for me. And so, I'm super thankful for that path because it just kind of reignited my passion for business. And I enjoyed it enough to go back to school and get my Masters just so I could sit for the CPA exam. And that's really what launched my career into public accounting. So, I joined a big four firm out of their Indianapolis office just after graduation. I loved the complexity of the companies that I was working with. If you want a challenge, I think that's a great avenue to give you as much as you can take. And the people were second to none, both clients and the folks I worked with. And so... I was just a sponge. I was just soaking up everything that I possibly could. But after about five years, I was a young dad. I was traveling all the time. I was ready to lay down some roots. And so, I started looking. I was ready to really kind of not just audit the books but also be part of a company's growth trajectory. And so, getting on board with Hoosier Hills was really kind of one of those cheesy networking stories about not knowing... who you're going to help or who could help you down the road. I had begun interviewing with a few firms around the Indy area, and one of those was with the CFO of a larger operator of senior living facilities in the Midwest. We hit it off, but the finance role that I was looking at just didn't feel like the right fit. So, we kind of agreed to go our separate ways. I stayed in public, but about a year later, out of the blue, I got a call from that same CFO who was now the president of that organization. He said, hey, I have a really good friend who's the CFO of a credit union, and they are looking for a controller. Would you be interested in talking with them? And I had really no background in banking. I mean, keep in mind, when I was in public, all of my clients were Fortune 100 manufacturing giants. So, it was very far and distant from banking. But I sat down with our then CFO, Joe Ward. We hit it off, met the CEO, we hit it off. And I think within two months, I started. That was, gosh, over eight years ago now. So, I spent eight years as the controller, picking up kind of increasing responsibility. And then just this past year, I took over as the CFO when Joe decided to move over into a strategy role within the organization. So, it's crazy to say it's been nine years, but it's been a challenge. It's been exciting and everything in between. 

[Zach, 05:37]

It's a terrific answer, Cole. And it's a really interesting journey. And one thing that strikes me, I'm just curious. if you could elaborate a bit on any lessons you learned from those bigger manufacturing companies or from your time in the big four and how they're more applicable to your role now, because obviously the industries are very different, but I got to think there's some level of applicability or some lessons that you were able to transition from one to the next. 

[Cole, 06:06]

A hundred percent. And I mean, honestly, again, I would go back to having that strong accounting background, for me was such a benefit because to your point, I was crossing industries. I really did not have a baseline, so to speak, in banking. But if you know GAAP, then you can quickly learn industry-specific accounting in short order. And that was a safety blanket for me, too, because it helped me understand how the business operated more quickly so I could add value out of the gate. Things like financial reporting or technical accounting adoption, improving our control environment, hopefully adding a little more efficiency to back-office processes or automation. There's a shortage of really qualified accountants in this country, and AI has not taken those jobs yet. It could one day, but... For me, that accounting background is what made me a better businessperson. If you want to have a long career in public, I think that's great. But for me, it was really a means to improve my overall business acumen and become a more well-rounded leader. Aside from that, some of it's just really simple. Attitude is everything. That's one of my philosophies. I'll never forget my first day on a client site. I was probably sweaty and nervous. And I had this firm inside buddy who actually ended up being one of my closest friends. But he could tell I was nervous. And he said to me, literally, no one expects you to know anything right now. Nothing. And you probably don't. And so, the one thing you can contribute is a positive attitude. And that just stuck with me because he was spot on. I did not know anything. And so, I just kind of made it my mission to be humble and have a great attitude and try and help others around me show a genuine interest and things my superiors were trying to teach me. And I think that was kind of like a magic potion. And I think that's very true today, maybe even more true. That buddy of mine just said, you'd be amazed at how something so simple actually separates you from the pack. And so, when I came over to the credit union, that was, again, my philosophy. Because once again, here I was in an environment where I did not know anything. And so, I was bringing the attitude, if nothing else. 

[Zach, 08:33]

I think that's extremely well said. And Cole, just thinking about your trajectory, you're probably the first guest we've had right, Vin, that's actually younger than me. Because I graduated a year ahead of you. And so, I think you're from a unique position here where a lot of folks who have maybe longer careers in banking. So, I'm just curious. You mentioned kind of your friend who gave you some good advice. Through your kind of early years here, any other mentors or influences that have been or have left a mark in your last, we'll call it, 10, 15 years of your career? 

[Cole, 09:06]

Yeah. No, definitely. I mean, coming into the industry, Joe Ward, like I said, our previous CFO, has been and continues to be a big mentor  of mine. With no experience, looking back, it's maybe shocking to see the confidence Joe had in me, really, from the start. That was inspiring. Yeah. He gave me a long leash to really get my hands dirty and let me operate as autonomously as anyone could ask for. I mean, I think he could see I was hungry to understand the guts of banking. I oversee our payment ops team as well. So, he let me get my hands dirty learning about the payment rails, which has been instrumental in my own understanding of not just accounting and finance in a bank setting, but operations as well. And I think that allowed me to broaden my horizons beyond just being a finance guy. But I would say probably most of all, I just appreciate his patience and how down to earth he is. He's been in this industry for close to 40 years. So, he's seen and been through a lot. And so, his steadiness, even when times aren't necessarily the best, is something that, honestly, I just try and steal and imitate because I've seen how contagious it is. We could be working through something that's stressful, and he'll be the first one to crack a joke. And it sounds, again, very simple, but those little things, I think, make a difference in terms of just overall morale and kind of galvanizing the team to accomplish a mission. So, that's taught me a lot. Outside of work, I mentioned my dad who's now retired, but was a CPA, a CFO himself. He's always just been a sounding board for me. And so, he took a similar path from public to eventually a CFO seat. So, bouncing off ideas with him has been great. He, I would say, really instilled with me, and it's a good trait, I think, as someone in finance and accounting to have that kind of skeptical mind. And some might read that as a negative, but I think it's truly one of the best attributes you can have as a business leader, which is just the ability to question ideas in a professional way, which I think you guys are well aware of in your own industry, but a trust that verify mentality is just super important. It fleshes out ideas really on your own terms and forces you to have a point of view. And so, he's always been good at that. 

[Vinny, 11:47]

Cole, this is Vinny Clevenger. Thank you so much for joining us. And I have a ton of respect for your background in public accounting. I, myself, spent a few years in that spectrum, if you will. And I had a client ask me recently, why is it that you're not in public accounting? I said, how many other public accountants do you know named Vinny? So, you know, it's like there's not too many of them. But I want to transition a little bit for our listeners. Could you enlighten us and just maybe give us an overview of the credit union? You know, I think you folks have 36,000 members, your location, asset size, kind of what you folks have grown into. I think that'd be a great backdrop as we, as Mike can get into some of the more specific things you folks have been focused on. 

[Cole, 12:29]

Yeah, absolutely. So, we operate predominantly in South Central Indiana. So, we're what I would call a mid-sized credit union, just under a billion dollars in total assets. Like you mentioned, we're knocking on the door of about 40,000 members at this point in time. We operate 10 service centers throughout our footprint. And like I said, that really covers the entire South-Central part of the state and then the five northernmost counties in Kentucky. So, as you can imagine, as the listeners can probably imagine, it is a rural footprint. And historically, we have focused on serving members in smaller towns, even within that footprint. So, for example, if you take out our biggest market, which is Monroe County, where Indiana University's flagship campus is, our next biggest county where we have a service center is actually Bedford, where we're headquartered, which has a population of about 45,000. So, and that would be considered a big city, right, compared to many of the other towns where our service centers are located, where you have 10, 15, maybe 20,000 folks. So, we are not serving major metropolitan areas by any stretch. And because of that, there's not a ton of big industry in our footprint. There are a few publicly traded companies, but there are a lot of small and mid-sized businesses, which has really become a big member niche of ours over the last two decades. So, similar to Ohio and Michigan, as far as competition goes, Indiana has a super healthy credit union movement. I want to say we have between 120 and 130 credit unions in the state, and many of them operate in our area. But community and regional banks certainly are competitors of ours and even money center banks that have locations throughout our footprint. But given our involvement in communities, I would say it is those community institutions that are our main competitors when it comes to things like loan and deposit growth. And certainly, as it relates to small business, just because that's a niche of ours. 

[Mike, 14:45]

Cole, it's Mike. I've really enjoyed our partnership over the years, and you're certainly not a status quo type of guy. So, one of the favorite things in our relationship working through strategy is Hoosier Hill's ability to take action. So, I'm just curious, your thoughts and perspective on what it is about your team and you, specifically as a part of that, that you're able to be curious, get the learning, understand the issues, and then put it into real life action pretty quickly. 

[Cole, 15:16]

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And likewise, I definitely don't think, you know, there's one silver bullet, but some things that come to mind are, for example, our ALCO is made up of the entire senior management team. So, while that may or may not be unique, every vertical of the organization is represented in some fashion. And it allows our non-finance members to really be fully engaged in the process. I know how much they enjoy attending our sessions. And since they're consistently at ALCO, they can see and speak to the very real topics that come up that present business issues and then translate that into how it affects their people down the line as well as our strategic initiatives so that I think it gives them a sense of empowerment that they can make a difference as well. And it helps everybody connect the dots. Our CEO, Travis Markley, is a big supporter of our finance team, but also the DCG ALCO process. And so having him bought in, I think, makes our lives easier just because he gives my area tremendous autonomy to do our jobs. And don't get me wrong, there's controls and policies in place, but in terms of actually taking the ideas that are spit out at ALCO and spinning them into reality, he's always saying, hey, let me step out of the way. Let me do what you guys do, and I'm going to support you every step of the way. So his confidence in us to do our jobs and do it well is, I think, something that aids in the overall efficiency of one thing that's maybe unique, I honestly don't know if this is unique or not, but like I mentioned, we're not a tiny shop, but we're also not a mega bank by any stretch of the imagination. And so, resources are limited. And we developed a product team over the last year or two. And so, I'm the corporate sponsor of the team, but outside of me, it is completely cross-functional. So again, we have all the articles of the organization represented. So, we have folks, and these folks span from management down to staff level, from retail, marketing, IT, risk compliance, fraud, training and development, payment ops. And essentially, the role of the team is to curate new products and services for the credit union, but it's also there to overhaul and tweak existing products or discontinue them if they're no longer needed. Honestly, you know, the first year we were a team I think we we discontinued more products than we created, but that was a beneficial cue in terms of trying to really focus on what's important. But yeah, one example of that team in action just really in the last year or so was the deployment of a reciprocal deposit network in (inaudible). So again, this was something that was really born out of ALCO where we recognize there could be times where we have members, commercial or otherwise, that want full federal insurance on their excess deposits or some reason we have an excess deposit balances that we needed to kind of offshore to manage size and capital. We could do that and still earn yield. And that concept that was really spun out of ALCO as a balance sheet lever is something that product team took and ran with. And I think we first started talking about it in the fourth quarter of last year. And by April or May of this year, we were live on platform and already had members utilizing it. So... The ability to leverage that team, I think for me, obviously, being on ALCO and also a part of that team allows us to work really quickly and also just focus our resources in the right way so that things are running as efficiently as they can. That team meets at a minimum monthly, but obviously, more if we're in the throes of a product launch. And even when we're not in a launch-type mode, it's hard to keep those meetings under two hours just because there's so much idea generation going on and information sharing. So honestly, it's one of the most enjoyable parts of my role here. Yeah. Yeah, outside of that, I just think it's communication. Simply put, you can't over-communicate your tactics and how those tie back to the greater strategic priorities of the organization. And like I said, I think our job is to try and connect those dots and DCG helps us do that at ALCO, too.

[Vinny, 20:06]

Appreciate that answer. You were just kind of talking about the strategic objectives of the credit union. Do you care to talk about kind of where you see the credit union over the next couple of years? I know it's sort of cliche, but a lot of the industry has seen pretty significant growth here over the last four or five years. And now as we head into 26, we're at the end of 25 here, and margins are getting better. What do you foresee for the credit union as you move into 26? Maybe a sneak peek into your budget, but I'm just kind of curious what you foresee strategically for the credit union moving ahead. 

[Cole, 20:38]

Yeah, we are entering budget season, no doubt. As I look back, really, on the last several years, and I kind of alluded to this earlier, but one catalyst for our growth, which spans certainly pre-pandemic, was just the leveraging of our unique charter type. So, we're state chartered, federally insured, but with our state charter, We're not only a low-income designated credit union, which kind of provides relief from the NCUA's business lending cap. We have an AG cooperative state charter, which also provides relief from that same cap, but would take a legislative change in order to remove that. And so, really, even two decades ago is around the time we started to focus on small business lending. I mean, we call it commercial. I think some of your bigger bank clients would say that's not commercial, that's small business, and they're probably right. But we started dipping our toes into that and really building out our lending team over the last two decades. And it's become an increasing part of our balance sheet, both in terms of loans and deposits. And not just a tool for growth, but just also balance sheet diversification and management as well. So today, roughly... A third of our loan portfolio is commercial purpose loans, and probably 15% to 20% is made up of commercial members when you talk about deposit balances. So that is certainly, I would say, something that we plan to continue leaning into. We saw during the pandemic just how important that aspect of our business was, you know. For example, when PPP loans came out through the SBA during the pandemic, we were one of the few credit unions in our area that we were ready to go and step in and help. And it was really our commercial lending team and our credit administration team that supported that and really bolstered, I think, our reputation as a business partner during that time frame. But yeah, lending has always been our kind of bread and butter. When I joined the credit union eight years ago, we were 115% loaned out. And as I started to really take over more and more, I don't know that I was a huge fan of that. I think it can be certainly a viable path and you can have a lot of success if you manage the risks. But in terms of the next several years and even the last one or two, we have focused on more balanced growth. So certainly, focusing on deposit gathering, which... has been a cultural shift for sure, just coming from that lending machine that we've been. But our teams have bought into it. We're back down to, I think, about 97% loaned out at this point. So yeah, I think, ultimately, that's what we're looking for is more balanced growth over the next couple of years. I agree with you, Vin. I think certainly right now as a liability sensitive institution with possible reductions and short term rates, that's not a bad thing for us. And so could see some widening of margins, but a lot of risks out there as well. And so yeah, we're focused on organic growth. I'll also mention we have some CUSOs that have seen pretty robust organic growth over the last few years. We had an insurance subsidiary that offers property and casualty insurance, but also, again, ventured into commercial lines as well as Medicare and group health benefits. Their growth has been robust, really, especially over the last two years. They've doubled in revenue. So, we've grown that business organically and through the purchase of some family-owned agencies in the area. And again, the synergies there between commercial members of the credit union and being able to offer insurance or being able to offer group health and things like that, that has been a catalyst for organic growth as well. 

[Zach, 24:44]

Cole, it's interesting because I know in a lot of the clients that I have or the credit unions and the data that we see is commercial lending and home equities. Those have been the two driving forces and a lot of loan growth in that industry. So, I think you guys seem like you're quite well positioned to continue with that. And I'm curious, Cole, maybe a two-part question. Are there any other opportunities that you want to expand upon that you kind of see in the next – maybe not next year, but – you know, 3, 5, 10 years, or maybe any of the threats, if you want to go the other way, whether it's for Hoosier Hills or just the broader banking industry. 

[Cole, 25:19]

I think you're right. There's a lot of opportunities and threats. I mean, so on the opportunity side, and look, you could argue that most of these opportunities are also potential threats, right? If you mess it up. So, I'm not naive to that. But, like I mentioned, I think... where we are positioned geographically in rural areas, there is an opportunity to continue filling a void in community banking. And so, you know, it's no secret that the number of community institutions is going down, unfortunately. It's just a fact. And at the same time, in our footprint, many of the large regional and money center banks are closing branches in less profitable, oftentimes rural areas where we operate. So, I understand that. If you look at the census projections, it's not necessarily a pretty sight. For example, Lawrence County, where we're headquartered, population is projected to shrink maybe a little over 1% in the next five years. But I also see that as an opportunity because those communities still have a strong need and desire for a partner financial institution, and that's what we are. That's what we want to be, is a high-touch shop that's heavily involved in the community. And there is payoff in terms of the credit union side for being there. And I think we have an opportunity to gain more market share, where even if those communities might be shrinking slightly, if we're taking a bigger and bigger piece of that pie... That's net growth for the credit union, and I certainly think that's a positive for the communities we serve. As far as practical, you know, applications of that, one thing that's interesting, and I don't know if this is true across the country, but in Indiana, beginning with the class of 2028, a requirement in public, charter, and state accredited non-public schools will be to take financial education to graduate high school. And so, you look at the course content for that, and it's banking, it's budgeting, it's credit cards, loans, saving, investing, all the things that we do. And so, our institution is partnering with schools to try and help provide content for that. This past summer, we launched what we call the Smart Spending Account, which is really a teen-focused checking solution for 13 to 17-year-olds. And we've attached financial rewards that are maybe a little bit unorthodox in that we're rewarding those teens for volunteering or even having a part-time job in the community. And it also gives us something to walk into those schools with when we have these discussions about financial education. And say, hey, here's what the credit union can do for you and actually reward you for things that you're already doing. So just things like that, that we can kind of double down on and support our communities while also growing the business. I think that's just looking to do more of that. Threats, there's a ton of them. I attended a session yesterday in the Indiana and Michigan Credit Union Summit. And there was a lot of discussion around stablecoin and tokenized deposits. I think we're in the first inning of all of that right now. And really, you could broaden this out to just payments disruption as a whole or non-bank competitors continuing to kind of take share from community institutions. But I do have some concerns just on stablecoin, in particular, as far as its impact to non-interest income sources for banks and credit unions. I think depending on how fast and widespread the adoption is for stablecoin as a means to transact payments. That will be what dictates the impact on those revenue sources. Again, that could be an opportunity, right? And I think I was encouraged coming away from that summit because I think there's a lot that we as community institutions can do. And there's still a lot of regulatory work to be done in this space. But I do see that as a possible contender to take more, maybe not deposits, but payments, market share away from community institutions. 

[Vinny, 29:50]

Cool. I really appreciate the thoroughness of that answer because clearly there's just so much going on and a lot of uncertainty. I think, guys, are there any other questions? Because I do have a hard-hitting question to end the interview here. Anything else on your minds? 

[Zach, 30:04]

I'll let you go with it. 

[Vinny, 30:05]

 Well, so I know you're an Indiana Hoosier graduate, but does anyone there really believe that that football team is as good as they pretend they are? I mean, what are we doing here? 

[Cole, 30:18]

You know, Vin, we are now a football school. You heard it here first. No, I still pinch myself. I was just reminiscing about the days as a kiddo going to IU games where it was less than $5 or roughly $5 to get in. And that is not the case anymore. But I'll tell you what, you get what you pay for. And the Hoosiers are the real deal. 

[Vinny, 30:44]

Yeah, no, it'll be interesting to see what the rest of that season holds. There's some big boys on that schedule down the stretch here. And I happen to be a, I'm not a graduate, but a Penn State fan. And I think our co-host here is heading to the, maybe the biggest game of the year, the Penn State-Oregon game this weekend, so. 

[Zach, 31:05]

Yeah, so I guess for listeners, we're recording this end of September. I am going to Penn State, Oregon. Cole, do you want to make a prediction? Because we'll probably get this out the week after you play Oregon. So, Indiana sitting number 11 in the AP, 4-0. Are you going to say you're 6-0 when this thing comes out in mid-October? What do you think? 

[Cole, 31:24]

I'm going to say we're 6-0. 

[Zach, 31:26]

Ooh. I love it. 

[Cole, 31;29]

Coach Cignetti is, he's one to be reckoned with. So, I'm all in. 

[Zach, 31:34]

I love it. 

[Vinny, 31:36]

Oh, he loves a microphone. We know that much. Holy moly. 

[Cole, 31:40]

Hey, Google him. He wins. 

[Vinny, 31:43]

That's right. I forgot about that. 

[Zach, 31:44]

We're going to bring him on the podcast, actually.

[Vinny, 31:46]

Yeah, that would be something. Well, Cole, thank you so much. This has been terrific, and we're very appreciative of your time. And I'm sure our listeners are really going to love this story. So, thank you for joining us. 

[Cole, 31:57]

Thank you, guys. My pleasure. 

[Zach, 32:00]

Great stuff. Thanks, Cole. Thanks again to Cole for joining us. Really terrific interview. Thanks to Mike Mitchell for coming on, too. And a couple of quick takeaways here just for me. I'll keep it short because I think it was towards the end of the interview, he mentioned kind of the shift from the lending machine they had to the deposit gathering focus over the next couple of years here. And he mentioned the word cultural shift. And that's a really important thing for a lot of banks, a lot of credit unions that we see, is they want to make the shift, but you can't just hit a switch. It's a cultural situation here that you need to be incenting folks and you need to drive that. It doesn't just happen overnight. And I think he used the correct words there for what they're trying to do, and I'm looking forward to seeing how well they do there. How about you, Mitch? What do you think? 

[Mike, 32:47]

Yeah. Cole - Cole's just a great guy. And that came out in some of the buzzwords he was using as far as his character attributes, you know, attitude is everything, you know, having a steady hand through some of the challenges that, that we experienced through different environments. He's, you know, always questioning, real curious mind that we're always talking about. And then, you know, kind of ending with communication’s everything. I mean, those, those are all things that we really believe in. And when you put them together, they really do start to make a difference. 

[Vinny, 33:14]

Yeah, Mike, well said, and thank you so much for setting this up. I think the one thing that I took away from this, something that just kind of resonated with me, and it was a follow-on to an answer to a question you asked, Mike, which was about taking action strategically, and he made mention of the fact that, you know, the CEO who is clearly in tune with everything going on. But at these meetings, you know, the committee feels empowered. They've got every vertical in the organization involved. And because they feel empowered and the CEO kind of appreciates and respects his team, it initiates action. And so, we have so many situations whereby – I see inaction. And so, what that really tells me is that he's got the right people in the right spot. And Cole certainly seems like the right person. So, thanks again, Mike, for setting us up. And thank you to our listeners for listening to On the Balance Sheet. We've got plenty more episodes. And thanks for listening. 

[Cole, 34:19]

On the Balance Sheet is a podcast produced by Darling Consulting Group. Our views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are solely their own and may not represent those of DCG or the affiliated business. Qualifying any financial or investment references made during these recordings is highly recommended as they may not be reflective of the current markets. More information about Darling Consulting Group can be found by visiting our website at www.darlingconsulting.com or emailing us at info@darlingconsulting.com. Today's music is provided by Michael Ramir and can be found on Mixkit.

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