74. Discovering Mushroom Therapy with Microdose Coach Bijou Finney

Are you mushroom-curious?

"Magic mushrooms" are the new medical marijuana and there is a lot of mystery and unanswered questions surrounding them.

Tune in to discover the transformative powers of mushroom therapy from Bijou Finney, a microdose coach, to the show. With Bijou's guidance, we traverse the healing landscape of both psychoactive and non-psychoactive mushrooms, revealing their potential to enhance health, cognition, and well-being.

Bijou shares her journey within the world of medicinal mushrooms, and how she has embraced a protocol that has changed the emotional and mental landscape for her and her clients.  This conversation is a must-listen for anyone curious about natural wellness or seeking an alternative approach to personal development.

This episode is a deep exploration of the burgeoning practice of the compound psilocybin,  for macrodosing and microdosing and how it impacts mental health.  Bijou and I unpack why individuals are turning to these natural substances, the critical importance of personalized dosing, and the unexpected creative breakthroughs that can arise. We bust myths, stress the value of expert guidance, and discuss the subtle art of balancing one's unique circumstances with the profound effects of microdosing.

For those intrigued by the power of mushrooms but hesitant about psychoactive experiences, we also shed light on the health benefits of varieties like lion's mane and turkey tail, detailing how to choose quality supplements and integrate them into a healthy lifestyle.

Bijou's expertise is evident as we consider the integration of mushroom therapy with other healing modalities, such as conventional talk therapy. By the end of our discussion, you'll be equipped with a good understanding of mushroom therapy's place in the wellness world, and how it might complement your healing journey.

For those eager to learn more, Bijou Finney is just a click away on social media and her website, ready to guide you through the evolving landscape of natural therapies.

Connect with Bijou at www.wellnessmamasita.com
Bijou on Instagram HERE
Bijou on Linkedin HERE

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:40

Hey everybody. So we all know that the world can be full of confusion when it comes to wellness and health. There always seems to be some new trend on the horizon, which is why today I am really excited to talk to Bijou Finney, because Bijou is a microdocene, coach and facilitator. As in magic mushrooms, she works with entrepreneurs, women and couples who desire to come more alive. Her focus is on pleasure, prosperity, purpose, power, play and plant medicine. So there seems to be a fascination with mushrooms going on right now and, if I'm being honest, like all things in the wellness realm, I am kind of confused, like so many other people.

Speaker 1: 1:27

What I know of mushrooms are people tripping on them in college while at a keg party. That's my long time just knowledge of it. Now it seems like everyone is just microdocene and even using mushrooms in high doses in a therapeutic way. So again, welcome Bijou, so glad you're here and I'm hoping that we can break this all down and just gain some clarity around using mushrooms in a therapeutic and medicinal way. Yeah, thanks for having me. So why don't we just start? How did you become?

Speaker 2: 2:03

I know you call yourself the mushroom mama, sita how did you get into this business of just being a mushroom facilitator and coach Sounds like pretty specialized yeah, I think I can take it pretty far back to my mom was very holistic in her health choices for us growing up, and I was always confident and comfortable in more of like the homeopathic world, just because I had grown up steeped in it and so maybe a little bit less open to some of the pharmaceutical options that were suggested to me, at least early in my youth. But then I got really into entrepreneurship and that's when I started dabbling more in pharmaceuticals to support me, so like maybe Adderall or things to keep my anxiety levels sustained, and so I was really into the biohacking world, like what can I do to support myself in wearable tech or supplements or meditation or mind reprogramming opportunities to really just have the most optimized health and life that I could possibly have? And that kind of led me to this article. That was one of the first things I had ever seen, which was all the Silicon Valley guys are micro dosing to innovate their businesses. And this was seven years ago, so you're right. The only other thing I found on the internet was a bunch of like hippie dudes talking about hero doses or hero dose experiences, which I think most people. It would have scared them away from it, but I'm a pretty tenacious person when I get my interest peaked, and so I kind of went down some rabbit holes by myself and I had a profoundly important and healing experience that helped me in many, many ways, and so I became a huge advocate for it right out of the gate, with how much I saw it shift my life. And so then I started getting my friends and family members to experience it, and I saw such a huge variety of people being supported in different ways, which was kind of mind blowing to me. So that's when I was like, why does it help so many different people with so many different things? And I kind of went on my own journey to find the answer to that question.

Speaker 2: 4:50

And when COVID happened, I closed my video production company, which was eight years old and very intense on my nervous system. I was living in a very fast paced city, I was working nonstop, and COVID kind of put a halt to all of that. And that's when I kind of took the leap and decided to get a facilitator training, just because, honestly, I wanted to support my loved ones more than anything. Because COVID happened, this organization decided to take their training online, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to access it because it was in Amsterdam and it was years before I thought that anyone was going to be open to it.

Speaker 2: 5:36

So fast forward, a year and a half later, all of a sudden, the buzz, the boom happened. A lot of people started talking about it, which I was honestly shocked by, and now, even though it's still in its infancy, it's very much more talked about in the major news channels, and people that are very respected are openly talking about how it's impacted their lives. So I see it only getting bigger from here on out, and I love what I do and I'll probably do it for the rest of my life.

Speaker 1: 6:10

Okay, well, thank you for sharing all of that. That's amazing. So I have so many questions and I just want to back up just a minute, because you said that you got into using mushrooms and you were supported by mushrooms. So I want to know what that means exactly. And then just even having facilitator training to help people who are going through an experience right, I mean that's very new too. I mean that's something that we would never have heard of 20, 30 years ago. So I want to hear about that too. But I also I just want to back up and just get like a little mini education in mushrooms. So when you say that you were using them and they were supporting you, are you talking about microdosing, macrodosing and I know that there's also just medicinal mushrooms that are not psychoactive, that don't get you. You know nothing trippy or anything like lion's mane and turkey tail and right. So can you just give a little breakdown of the differences between these?

Speaker 2: 7:22

Yeah Well, so there are so many mushrooms on this planet and they are incredible. They are highly intelligent, they're using them to plan out subway systems, they are very adaptive, they are very I mean just incredible in all the ways that they can support you. So I think, whenever I first started getting into it, it was microdosing of psilocybin and there are 200 different types of psilocybin mushrooms on the planet and then, from that, I started working with medicinal mushrooms at the same time. So, as you know, when it comes to food and nutrition, your gut is also a brain that affects a lot of your mood and your ability to focus and your ability to stay regulated, your nervous system. And so I started understanding okay, if my gut is out of whack, how can I support myself with turkey tail? If I'm having a hard time focusing and my memory is not great, then how can I bring lion's mane in to help me? So there was just literally a whole three or four months that I went down the medicinal and psychoactive mushroom rabbit hole and I have a army of mushrooms that I use daily, honestly, to regulate my nervous system and to support me.

Speaker 2: 8:50

Microdosing I do not do daily and everyone is very different. So, to your point, why a facilitator, who you are is a mixture of what your current environment is, what your past life looked like, the trauma you sustained, the environment you grew up in, the programming that you have, and then your future goals are very different, typically, than your neighbors, and so, based on that information, you would try to understand, okay, what is appropriate for you. So in my experience, it's a mixture of doses that is best to really move the needle for people, and so microdosing is really how can I get my nervous system calm, because everybody's nervous system is so raw and so out of whack that they shouldn't be making decisions about their lives, they probably shouldn't be talking to people that they love, and they can't sleep right. So if their nervous system is all haywire, then they're not acting as if they are who they really are, and so microdosing is a good way of coming back online and supporting yourself in understanding how to get out of fight or flight and to get more into a parasympathetic state. That's not typically enough for most people. It's an incredible start and it's very, very helpful.

Speaker 2: 10:13

But what microdosing also does, what mushrooms also do, is they liberate some of the tension and stuff that we couldn't process when trauma was happening. So, whether it be a traumatic birthing experience or a divorce or losing a loved one or a very toxic work environment, we are not actually processing that trauma out of our bodies in that moment. Our bodies hold on to that until we feel like we're in a more restful environment to actually process it. And so we are holding on to an extraordinarily huge amount of pain and frustration and anger and grief, and so it will start liberating out of your system, sometimes even with a microdose, and so it's really important that you have the practices and then know how to process it out of your system. And if it's not like microdosing itself out of your system on a microdose, then you will need to do a light tea experience, which isn't a hero dose or considered a macro dose, but it's like a nice way of softening, to let stuff up.

Speaker 2: 11:24

And then eventually, once you have developed this intimate connection or relationship with your medicine and you trust it and you understand how it works and hopefully you've worked with a facilitator so you really trust that facilitator too by then you might have found your core wound.

Speaker 2: 11:42

You might have found the program that's running that is affecting all of your issues, so your chronic pain, your gut problems, your libido, your mental blocks, your focus, all of that, even your addictions can come from this underlying thought, which is I am not safe, I am not loved, I am not worthy, and so you're able to actually address that core wound that is all of your issues are stemming from on a microdose, or a hero dose, if you want to call it, because you're actually able to surrender.

Speaker 2: 12:17

You've been in that space before, you know how to navigate it and you can actually get somewhere. And so it's a very it should be a very slow unfolding, because it took you 20, 30 years to create this tightly wound package and you need time to not disrupt your life so incredibly by just blowing it up is, which is exactly what I did. And so the fact that I didn't have support I did have support from the mushrooms, but not from a facilitator I definitely went into a mini depression. It was just like a big understanding of my life came right in front of my face while I was super busy, and that is not a great idea. And so, yeah, it's like this beautiful balance of slowly but surely unpacking your baggage, leaving it behind, opening your closets, letting some of the skeletons out and really just getting to a more peaceful and less shameful and less grieving place to be in, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 13:25

Yeah, no, definitely. So it sounds like, from what I'm hearing you say, is that people start using mushrooms because they're having a lot of past trauma. I mean they're having anxiety and negativity. I guess, if you want to call it right, I mean they're not coming to you like I'm so happy, or do they? I mean, can you start a mushroom protocol from a really positive place?

Speaker 2: 14:00

I don't think anyone's ever asking that question.

Speaker 2: 14:02

Yeah, in fact, my two favorite people, the ones that actually get the most out of it, are the people that are at rock bottom, because they only have up to go from there and they're actually willing to do the work and they're not in that uncomfortable middle ground.

Speaker 2: 14:15

That isn't great but isn't hard enough. So people aren't really willing to put the hard work in. I'm sure you know with diet like you have to get to a really low point sometimes before you'll really change your life. Or the people that have done so much work and they have optimized and optimized and gone to therapy and done all the healing work and created this spiritual practice if that's what helps them but there's still something in the body that's blocked, or they still have a specific block around one aspect of their life, or they're really just trying to open their mind to innovate and be more creative and to really see their life and their future in a different way. And so, yeah, absolutely there are people that have come to me that are perfectly happy with their lives, but they're just explorers of their subconscious and of the universe and they want to understand it in a more deeply and profound way.

Speaker 1: 15:12

Okay, well, yeah, so that's good to know. Now, from what I also heard you say is that you maybe did a macro dose protocol and if I'm not saying this, all right, if I'm not using the lingo, right, just let me know but which might be like almost like a sledgehammer, right? Versus micro dosing. Now, micro dosing, as I understand it too, is like a tenth of the dose of a macro dose, right? So you technically aren't supposed to feel like trippy, or you're right, is that my correct with that? So that's almost like a gentle, like step into the world of mushrooms.

Speaker 1: 15:56

Okay, so so then tell me a little bit more than about the dose and how much. And you know because, like I said before, there's so much confusion out on the internet. It's just like you know. Everyone's talking about micro dosing. Read articles on in the newspaper about I don't know women who are depressed and they started micro dosing. But like, how much, where, when, how, why, you know for how long? Like, what are you supposed to do to start? I mean, I know there's different protocols that you can do four days off, three days on, every other day. You know all things like that. So how do you get clear on that and is there just still confusion for like someone like you, as like a facilitator, is there just still? Are you still working out the like, what the doses are and how to really use it in the in the best way?

Speaker 2: 16:56

No, because it's not. It's not like 30 grams of Adderall is 30 grams of Adderall. Even doctors are going up and down on SSRIs and in really helping people based on what's going on with their like the chemicals in their brain or what's going on in their environment, everyone is so incredibly different. So the way that you absorb things in your gut, if you're on any pharmaceuticals, like if you're super disconnected from your body, if you're in a very loud and aggravating environment, you have young kids that need your attention constantly, or you have like a crazy job, your brain is going to focus on those things and put everything else to the background, right, and so every single person needs to dial in. And that's the problem is that they'll read online oh, there's the Stamets stack. I need to take point two and include niacin and lion's mane. And then they take it and they're like, oh my God, this is like feels horrible. And you're like they didn't realize that niacin first of all has a flush to it, so it wasn't actually the mushrooms that didn't feel that great, it was the niacin. And second of all, maybe point two is way too much for you, or they'll do it for a certain amount of time and never felt anything. And then they're like well, the placebo effect, right, like I don't know what this is doing for me, so I'm going to give up.

Speaker 2: 18:19

And so it really, really is important that someone hold your hand, unless you try to do it by yourself, to dial in, and that means going up in small doses until you actually feel something which would feel similar to like a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, and then you would come back a little bit. And so you do truly want a sub-perceptive dose, which most people. I like to have days in between, so maybe it's just three days a week Monday, wednesday, friday. It's it's rare that I think someone should do five days a week. I feel like that's way too intense. It's maybe for people who are really struggling with, like addiction or migraines. Maybe that's appropriate for them, but most people I like it to have space so they don't develop tolerances and so they're not consistently working on their system all of the time.

Speaker 2: 19:08

And so I would say that if you're interested in dialing in by yourself, you should go up in small doses with an appropriate strain, because not all strands are created equal. Some strands are more appropriate for macrodoses and some are more appropriate for micro doses and then find your flow with it, really get into a place where you're like really enjoying it, and it's truly sub-perceptive, it's not affecting your ability to drive, to look at your phone, to parent, to work. Every now and again, though, you are going to want a processing dose which is like maybe double your normal micro dose, so maybe you would do that every couple of weeks and you would give yourself space to journal or breathe, or walk or stretch or cry or let the tension and stress that wants to come up come up. And so, yeah, for people to really see the benefits of this, I think that they really need to understand that everyone is so different that they really need to take the time to figure out what's right for them, and so, in helping as many people as I have at this point, I have a good idea of what maybe they are experiencing, but I also have the open mind of everyone's incredibly different, and we're just going to keep trying things until we hit the flow. And then, once we hit the flow, that's when they start opening their mind up to what habits need to change, what programming or what thoughts need to change, and that's when we start the reprogramming practices that actually make for the long-lasting results, to where they're not dependent on the medicine.

Speaker 2: 20:53

After that, it's just intuitively as needed in the future if something else hard comes up, where they're trying to access creativity.

Speaker 2: 21:02

They know how to use this tool and they know how to come back to it. But it's best that people at least give three or four months when they're first starting to work out with this medicine, because you want time for stuff to come up, you want time to practice new habits that are going to support you, and then you're going to have time to figure out if you should start doing higher doses. And so I see a lot of stuff online of, oh, you should only do it for a month, or oh, if it's over.2, it's not considered a microdose and it's like yeah, but unless someone's on like, if they're over 200 pounds and they're on an SSRI, they might go all the way up to6 and it's still considered a microdose, and so it's. You're right, there's a lot of confusing information out there and there are people that understand what this can do for them. So they want to be rule followers and then they like don't get the benefits from it because they're not actually breaking the rules to benefit themselves in a way.

Speaker 1: 22:02

So it sounds like you definitely need a facilitator. There's a lot to know, right. And then if you just get a microdose protocol from somebody like I have and you know, just kind of tried it, I mean there's just I didn't even know that there's different doses of the microdose and I did not know that there was different strains of microdosing. So how do you know what's in your microdose? I mean, how do you have any idea if you're getting it? I mean, I guess you could ask the person you're getting it from.

Speaker 2: 22:39

Oh yeah, I think this substance, similar to a lot of the other psychedelics out there, are very powerful and have the opportunity or the probability of making a big shift in your life if you do it correctly. So it's not the bias that I have as a facilitator, it's literally that I have stumbled there's many, many times by myself when I tried to do this and, because I'm hardheaded, I got through it. But I know there were so many times that the average person would have said, like screw this, I'm not doing this anymore. And I'm really glad that I kept going, because I can owe so much of who I am right now and where I am and my sense of empowerment and happiness to this medicine. But I also don't want people to have to take the same path as I do, and so, yeah, I believe that you should do your due diligence, work with someone who actually has a ton of experience in it, really learn yourself to be empowered and how to utilize this tool for as long as you need to, and any good facilitator should be doing that for you.

Speaker 2: 23:53

It does bother me that some microdosing consultants out there are doing more of like the Western medical approach, which is like here's your pill, good luck, and people are super trusting. It's like I ask people, what are you taking in there? Like, oh, I don't know, and like what dose and strain I have no idea. And it's like, wow, yeah, let's all start asking questions. Let's all say, start asking how long have you been working with the medicine? What was your training? Where does this medicine come from? How old is it? When was it harvested? Like all of those things really matter when you're trying to go out and figure out what facilitator is right for you, because it is kind of the Wild West right now.

Speaker 1: 24:38

Yeah, it definitely feels like the wild west and hopefully more just the education on using a facilitator may come to light, and I think that would be great because it sounds like you need some guidance with the protocols. I know someone who was trying microdosing and just felt like every time she was taking it. I don't know if she was nervous, she was just feeling like she had to go to work so she'd take it and then have to go to a pretty busy job all day long and just felt like she was feeling very trippy and not herself. So I'm assuming she was taking probably too much. You're not supposed to. When you're microdosing, you're not supposed to be feeling like I'm having a tripping experience or anything like that. Right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:43

So that's kind of why it's really important to dial in, to really understand what are good doses for you, and sometimes people think that they have to have it felt all the time for it to be doing its job. But honestly, it's working in the background in a big way, even if you don't really feel the medicine, and every now and again for the placebo effect and to access the other capabilities that the medicine has for you, you do want to actually feel it, but in the proper time and place, like the appropriate carving out of your schedule to potentially process some stress that you have. But majority of the time you want it in your system, supporting you in the background, and that's really why it's important to understand what is the dose that you don't really feel or that you can function on. So I hate using the analogy of wine, but so many people are comfortable with alcohol or have experience with it that it's kind of like would you drive your car on one glass of wine? Would you be taking care of your children on one glass of wine? Right, like it should be less than that. So like you should be able to function, no problem. You might just notice that your mood is a little bit elevated, or you're a little bit more tender and sensitive, or you notice things a little bit more, like you're paying attention to the songbirds and the leaves, like it's very subtle what you will notice. But it's that long game that you're doing to really start seeing shift and get perspective.

Speaker 2: 27:23

And that's kind of where I went wrong, which was more must be better, and I rushed it too fast and I did too much too soon and I just didn't have the support set up to be able to address what came up, and so that's why I'm willing to talk about it with anyone who will listen.

Speaker 2: 27:45

In the sense of this is very powerful medicine that needs reverence when worked with and needs someone that has been there before and when, and I mean that's why a lot of therapists are coming to work with me. They're doing their due diligence as well. They are figuring out what this medicine means for them, so that they've actually been there before, because they can see the writing on the wall too. I believe that in just a couple of years, it's going to be commonplace that someone would take a microdose before they go to a therapy session, and so I think a lot of therapists are understanding how much it releases trauma and rewires the brain, that they know that they're going to be prescribing it one day or utilizing it in their practices, and that's really exciting to me.

Speaker 1: 28:36

Yeah, no, I think the potential sounds like it's huge and certainly I don't know a single person who's not stressed out or doesn't come from some kind of trauma. So it sounds like the potential is really there to help a lot of people. Now I know we talked very briefly about other kind of mushrooms, like turkey tail and those others that don't have any psychedelic properties to them and that you could probably buy at Whole Foods right now. If someone is just like the thought of tripping or anything like feeling like any kind of feeling like that is just a no for them. Can they get supported through these other types of mushrooms?

Speaker 1: 29:26

I know you said that you use them as, maybe like an add-on to your protocol, but that's another just mess of confusion. I mean, you go on the internet and it's like the top five healthiest mushrooms for you that you can take. This one helps your brain, this one helps your stress, this one like how much? What dose? Like how long, is too much, too much? Is it? Like you know? Are you just supposed to take a little? You know? I mean I take the supplements very seriously. I don't, because you know you can walk into Whole Foods and there's just no regulation to them? There's no. You can overdo anything. So what's your feeling about those kind of mushrooms?

Speaker 2: 30:15

Great question. So I think that there are some things that I'm noticing in the industry that people should be on the lookout for. One of them is that there are some companies that are growing the mushroom on a substrate and just dumping it all into the supplement, which means that if you have sensitivities or allergies to grain or rice that it would be grown on, then that would affect you. Also, it means that a good part of your supplement might be just filler, and so I think that using reputable companies that are actually even processing the mushroom a certain way because some of those mushrooms have very hard cell walls that need to be broken correctly for you to be able to absorb them the way that you need to. Otherwise it's kind of just passing through your system, and so I would say that a company that does a really good job and I'm not affiliated with them they do a really good job of explaining the ways to use it, and it's in tincture form, which allows you to kind of just take a dropper full, and they sell the whole suite of the top five or seven best mushrooms. Or you can buy the whole suite or you can just buy the ones that are really calling to you, but they are great. They're life cycle mushrooms. There's also mogu mushrooms, which are really good guys that are very serious about how they grow and how they process the mushrooms. They're more in a powder form so, if you like, creating your own lattes or smoothies or whatever, they also include the spore, which is also a very important aspect of it. So maybe if you don't appreciate tincture because you're very stripped on no alcohol or you just don't really appreciate how alcohol tastes in your mouth there are some people that really dislike tincture then I would go with mogu. But yeah, it's a little bit confusing, but I will say that, since it's a natural substance, it's very hard to overdo a lot of the mushrooms.

Speaker 2: 32:30

Lion's mane I can really tell when I use it. It feels like a cup of coffee to me. So everyone is different. Some people are like I don't feel my medicinal mushrooms at all, whereas some people's systems are very sensitive. So I personally consult my clients to work with lion's mane for anything to do with brain. It's just really incredible.

Speaker 2: 32:58

Turkey tail is really helpful for gut and for cancer or an immune system. Rishi is really great for supporting your nervous system and calming yourself down. Shataki is really great for your gut and hair and skin and nails. Chaga is the king of the mushroom world when they talk about anything medicinal, which is a very hard mushroom that's hard to grow and hard to process, but it's so incredibly important for immune system, I guess Rishi would be considered that too, and those are a really good place to start. Don't overwhelm yourself, but see which ones are really calling to you based on what you're experiencing, and then just start looking into some of the supplements and, to your point, don't just grab a random powder off of the shelf at Whole Foods, because it's probable that they're just jumping on the bandwagon and they're not really passionate about putting out a product that is going to be created in a way that's in integrity.

Speaker 1: 34:12

Okay, that's really good to know. Thank you for the companies, because I think you can go on the internet and just look up mushrooms and there's hundreds of companies and they all sound good. But I think I'm just maybe one of those skeptical people. I start getting overwhelmed with information and then I spend money and then I'm like is this working, is this like, is it doing anything? And then maybe I give up. So that's great that there's reputable companies that you're recommending. Now I also feel like mushrooms don't live in a vacuum. I'm not a believer in like just take a supplement, you can go drink and smoke and do all the bad on health things. So as long as you're taking your supplements, you're fine. Health is holistic and definitely there needs to be compliments, you know. With it I mean eating healthy food and stuff. What do you think about that? Using mushrooms microdose, macrodose, any of it? Do you feel like there's other support systems that go along with that?

Speaker 2: 35:21

Oh, yeah, I mean to your point. The environment that we are all living in is incredibly stressful and if you are a human, you probably had some trauma growing up in your life. So in that capacity, I do believe this substance or supplement is incredibly powerful for that aspect of us. But I will say that, as holistic beings, that we're not really going to have optimal mood or health or mindset without being supported in many capacities. That should be our baseline, right.

Speaker 2: 35:56

So a lot of times people will come to me and they're like I'm struggling with anxiety and depression. And they're like I drink four cups of coffee a day and I vape and I watch, I listen to murder mysteries as I go to sleep and I have four kids that I'm rushing around and I have two full-time jobs. And you're like no amount of mushrooms is going to like fix that. I mean enough mushrooms will make you not want to do all of that anymore. But we need to make some lifestyle changes, right?

Speaker 2: 36:30

And so I typically ask people how hydrated are you? What kind of food are you eating? What kind of content are you consuming? What is your relationship, your close relationships look like? Have you had your hormones checked? Like so much of those things are not asked when someone goes in to talk to a doctor that just prescribes them a pill to just mask all of that, right? So that's the thing is that people kind of maybe get a little bit frustrated with me at times when they're coming in thinking that they're going to get the magic pill and I'm like, actually we need to develop a whole plan for you. And trust me when I say, if you do this for yourself, you will be a completely different person, and if you only take mushrooms and you keep everything else the same, you might get 25% better instead of 90% better. And so, yeah, I'm a big advocate of what does your life look like and what are the simple and maybe not so simple changes that need to be made and how can I support you with that?

Speaker 1: 37:41

Yeah, that sounds like that makes a ton of sense. I mean, I'm sure it's all. It's very individual, as you've said. That's why you are a coach who facilitates each person, because everyone's different and has different lifestyles. And, ray, we can't just like take a pill and just expect it to then cure everything. We've got to do all sorts of work around that. What do you think is the future of mushrooms now? I mean, I know there's buzz like things are going to get legalized and stuff. Do you feel like it's going to turn the way of like, like medical marijuana, which I personally feel like it's just I don't know. Is it out of control, is it? You know? Just, I think for some of the people that I know is like being like a kid in a candy store, because, you know, in my generation I grew up, marijuana was illegal. You know, it was a little hard to get. It was. Now it's like accessible to everybody. Do you feel like mushrooms could go that way? Or what do you feel like the future of using mushrooms will be?

Speaker 2: 38:54

That's a very loaded question in the sense that I'm going to really share how I feel about cannabis and the sense that it is a dissociative, and so in certain instances, if you really need a break from your mindset or your life, I see the value in the problem is is that people use it as a crutch and they end up completely dissociating from their lives. There's a big problem with that, not to mention the sustainability of growing marijuana all over the world and especially this country, with how it sucks water and what it does to the agricultural world. There's a lot of damage that I believe cannabis can do and has done. I'm not hating on it completely. I know that it has opened the door to a lot of other psychedelics, because people have tried a cannabis gummy and understood that it gave them a little bit of relief and now are a little bit more open-minded to some other substances. But I will say that, unlike nicotine or alcohol or cannabis, mushrooms have a natural governor on them. They're really shown to be very, very safe and not addictive. The thing about mushrooms is that they hold a mirror up to you and not everyone likes that, and so it's very thoughtful work that you do sometimes and you find other things to support you in regulating your nervous system, so practices or other helpful herbals or medicinal mushrooms, and so to me I don't see it going crazy like it did with the cannabis world. In fact, some people that are using psilocybin recreationally are going to like a concert or a bar and actually not drinking as much because they feel open and carefree and more social, but not needing to ingest the amount of alcohol that they were ingesting. So I actually see that as a helpful thing.

Speaker 2: 41:04

I would say that if they try to synthesize it and put it behind lock and key and say you have to pay $4,000 to have a microdose experience which is what they're doing now in parts of Oregon, which sounds crazy to me I don't see them being able to do that either.

Speaker 2: 41:23

Like if you try to synthesize it out to where it only has some of the helpful components and you don't have to deal with the components that people don't like, other people that don't have access will go to the natural, pure essence of it and you can grow it in your closet.

Speaker 2: 41:42

So it's like good luck trying to like keep people from being empowered enough to grow their own medicine. It's not like a weed plant, where it's gonna be very obvious that you're growing it somewhere in your backyard or your front yard. It's like very covert and very easy to just take a tiny little corner of your closet and have your own medicine in there, and so I think that that's really where information, education and support are gonna come in handy, because I do have people that are thinking that it's like cannabis and thinking, oh, I can figure it out myself. And then they come back to me and they're like, oh, that was a really bad idea. I think I did some damage, and that's the thing, too is like I trust that everyone's gonna go on the pathway that they're meant to, but I believe that if you're going to be taking this seriously and wanting to have the most useful and smooth process that you can, then you should be working with someone that has a lot of experience.

Speaker 1: 42:48

Yeah, it definitely sounds like that is the way to go, because it's powerful medicine. It's medicine, it's not recreational, it's not just to go and have a fun evening. It's really something that, like you said, you're holding the mirror up to your face, you're like giving it, you're really looking at things that are deep and maybe buried in trauma, and that's something that you probably don't want to be doing alone. So having again having like the facilitators, sounds really useful and important. So how do you work with people? How do you? Do you work online? Are you working one-on-one? Do you work in groups? Tell me your process.

Speaker 2: 43:37

Yeah, really quick. To go back to your point about the ways to use it, I believe that it's the full spectrum of the human existence is hard work and play and pleasure, and I think that sometimes people get stuck in one or the other, like they refuse to do the hard work and they just want to like ease and grace and pleasure, whereas other people are really serious about life and doing it right, that they won't give themselves permission to play. And so I believe that medicine this medicine can be utilized as long as it's utilized in the full spectrum of the human existence. So like, if you want to have a nice experience with your partner, or you want to go to a concert on a low dose of mushrooms, or you want to camp on it, have fun, have fun on it. Your intention is very powerful. And so if you go in with the intention of supporting yourself in that way because you don't always have access to play and pleasure and comfort and relaxation like you think you should totally use it for that. But the good thing about this is, whether you like it or not, if something's wanting to come up to be processed, it will, and that's why it's really important that you know how to process that and that you have the support in doing so. And so, yeah, do the hard work on it, but also play on it for sure. And that's kind of what I do.

Speaker 2: 45:00

I work virtually with people. If people are Uber supported, like they have a therapist and a healer and they are really doing the work and they're working with four or five people, then I'm typically just the medicine consultant where I'm just like what is the right dose training protocol for you? What are the habits that we should be building in? This is how you process the emotion or the energy that's coming up. When is it appropriate for you to do a tea? Should we change out your strain or should I suggest something else for you? It's that customization that people can't get from their therapist yet at least. And so there's the more just like consulting side.

Speaker 2: 45:47

But if people are really like there's some stuff that I can tell is affecting my love, my money, my health that I can't have access to, that I have repressed or hidden from myself so well that I'm really not like understanding this, or I've intellectualized it so much in therapy that the whole body component is the part that I'm missing, then I would work more deeply with them, no matter what. I work with someone for three to four months, because that's how long it takes to really see progress and really get somewhere with the medicine. If you're doing it in the slow, methodical, strategic way, as I believe people should and we would do virtual microdose assisted sessions where I take them through a visualization and I actually ask questions, that gets their body and subconscious to answer rather than their rational mind, and so in that way, since their mind is more open with the medicine in their system, we're actually able to find things that they were unaware of, that was from the past or from their current environment, that is very subtle or passively, aggressively introduced, and so what we're trying to do is understand then, from that information, what changes need to be made in your environment or your mindset. Sometimes in that work we will find their core wound, like I stated before, and then that's when it's appropriate to do an in-person, big, big experience to really to really rewire the brain, to really like knock that out of their system, to really help them access the truth of the matter. And so that would be in-person and that would be after training for it, honestly getting ready to surrender, getting the safety and the comfort that's necessary with me and with the medicine to truly feel good in going into yourself, and so it's very, very helpful work.

Speaker 2: 47:51

I've helped people that are struggling with depression from a really horrible disease diagnosis or end-of-life fear. I've helped people with PTSD. I've helped with sexual trauma. I've helped with addiction. There are obviously some things that people have come with that I have not been trained to support, in which case I suggest out or I refer out. But yeah, I believe that a good mix of modalities in tandem with this medicine is really, really helpful for someone to see faster and more deeply embodied healing than what's possible just doing talk therapy alone or just taking an SSRI alone or just doing hypnosis alone.

Speaker 1: 48:45

Sounds great. I mean, it sounds like you're just a part of the bigger puzzle with some people and it sounds like it might even, just in the future, just be a natural compliment to therapy, and hopefully that's what it will become more and more.

Speaker 2: 49:05

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 49:06

So how can people get in touch with you and find you so?

Speaker 2: 49:12

it seems that a lot of people are finding me on Instagram and they typically go to my link in bio and will book a simple consultation with me so that I can ask them a lot of questions to understand if they're a good candidate for this work and at the very least, just suggest those training protocol. If they're trying to go about this alone, I want them to at least have that information and then sometimes we determine whether I or another facilitator that I'm aware of would be a good fit for them, so kind of really just understanding what's right for them. Or some people can find me on my website. Both of them are mushroommamasitacom or mushroommamasita on Instagram. Okay, great.

Speaker 1: 49:56

Well, I will definitely share all of that in the show notes so people can access it that way. And thank you so much for talking and educating me and, I think, my listeners on the benefits of mushrooms, and I'll be really interested to see how this just unfolds in the next couple of years. I think it'll be really interesting. So, thank you so? Much.

Speaker 2: 50:23

Thank you, this was a really fun conversation.