Dana Karen Ciccone is the founder of Movement Remedies, a Boston-based pilates studio, and the author of the book You Were Meant to Move. In our interview, Dana Karen shares her beginnings of the intertwining of chronic pain with the complex world of dieting and body image, which is a narrative often left untold.
In an era where fitness journeys are synonymous with aesthetic transformations, we shift the spotlight to the bravery of beginning these journeys amidst pain. The discussion with DK sheds light on the psychological underpinnings of chronic pain and the controversial suggestion that the mindset of chronic dieting may aggravate it. This chapter of our dialogue underscores the profound need for a weight-neutral space that honors the essence of true health.
Concluding this episode, we unpack the psychological barricades that deter us from embracing movement when in pain, and how to dismantle them. DK empowers listeners to find activities that resonate with them deeply, fostering long-term health benefits.
Take a listen to this pivotal conversation about the intersection of dieting, body image, disordered eating, and chronic pain.
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Hang out with Heather on IG @greenpalettekitchen or on FB HERE.
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"I love Heather and the Real Food Stories Podcast!" If this is you, please do not hesitate to leave a five-star review on Apple or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Dana Karen Ciccone is the founder of Movement Remedies, a Boston-based pilates studio, and the author of the book You Were Meant to Move. In our interview, Dana Karen shares her beginnings of the intertwining of chronic pain with the complex world of dieting and body image, which is a narrative often left untold.
In an era where fitness journeys are synonymous with aesthetic transformations, we shift the spotlight to the bravery of beginning these journeys amidst pain. The discussion with DK sheds light on the psychological underpinnings of chronic pain and the controversial suggestion that the mindset of chronic dieting may aggravate it. This chapter of our dialogue underscores the profound need for a weight-neutral space that honors the essence of true health.
Concluding this episode, we unpack the psychological barricades that deter us from embracing movement when in pain, and how to dismantle them. DK empowers listeners to find activities that resonate with them deeply, fostering long-term health benefits.
Take a listen to this pivotal conversation about the intersection of dieting, body image, disordered eating, and chronic pain.
Let's Be Friends
Hang out with Heather on IG @greenpalettekitchen or on FB HERE.
Let's Talk!
Whether you are looking for 1-1 nutrition coaching or kitchen coaching let's have a chat. Click HERE to reach out to Heather.
Did You Love This Episode?
"I love Heather and the Real Food Stories Podcast!" If this is you, please do not hesitate to leave a five-star review on Apple or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Hi everybody and welcome back to the Real Food Stories podcast. Today I am with Dana Karen Ciccone, who is a certified Pilates instructor who helps people in pain, improve strength, mobility and well-being in a weight-neutral environment. She's also trained in pain reprocessing therapy through the Pain Psychology Center. Having begun her own journey with chronic back pain as a young teen, dk, as she sometimes likes to be called, has been exploring ways to help herself and others regain joy of movement for decades. After 20 years in the health sector, dk left a corporate career to follow her passion, later launching Movement Remedies, a chronic pain focused Pilates studio in Boston, massachusetts. Her first book, you're Meant to Move A Guide to Conquering Chronic Pain, increasing Stress, resilience and Reclaiming an Active Life, was released in December of 2023.
Speaker 1:So welcome to the show and I'm so glad that you are here today, because when I heard about what you do, which is help people with chronic pain and you work also in a weight neutral environment, I was really intrigued, because I have my own personal story with chronic pain and the and I know very well that fear that you can develop around just simply moving and exercising, because you start to get convinced that you're going to make something worse or that you just can't move Like other people can. Something's really wrong with you and I know it can create. You know, for me like a like a lot of shame, like a like a, just a like, you know these like deep seated shame that I am not like good enough and that can just create the cycle and it's hard to get out of the chronic pain cycle. So I wanted to just why don't we start with you and and I want to hear your story about your childhood experience with pain and how that turned chronic and then I guess, how you overcame it.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, first of all, thanks so much for having me Really excited to be here and have this conversation. Every time, you know, we can connect with other folks with like-minded views. I just think it's so validating in general because so many of us are working in these area corners of the world, um, and it's nice to connect, um. So I mean I've had many chapters in my pain story, as, as you mentioned when you were in my bio, there's the, the initial pain story, which is the uh, the chronic pain in my back that began when I was an aspiring dancer in my teen years, and that kind of came and went and it was not something that made any sense to anyone. I still, to this day, don't really know. It's not like I had an accident or something that would have made for an acute pain situation. It was really. And to have chronic pain I mean now that I know what I know to have chronic pain recurring at such a young age is unusual. I mean it certainly happens, but it's not the typical story, although a lot of the folks I work with have stories like that, and so I do think that there are some patterns which I'm sure we'll get into in terms of, like, trauma and experiences that lead to that. So that was sort of the first era.
Speaker 2:Once I moved on from dance I realized, you know, my body was just not going to not cut out for it because it could not, you know, keep up with the demanding schedule and everything. I moved on with my life, went to school and had started a corporate life and then somewhere in my mid-20s started having again really severe pain, this time going down my leg, you know kind of classic sciatica symptoms, and was diagnosed with a herniated disc in my lumbar spine. Explored a whole range of treatments at that point, from PT to epidural injections to aqua therapy, to, you know, you name it. I was really desperate for relief and towards the end of that experience, you know, several months in, someone said to me you know, I've heard Pilates is great for backs and that was really all I heard. That was all I knew.
Speaker 2:I knew nothing about Pilates, which is funny because nowadays if you're a dancer, I think you hear about Pilates quite a lot. But at that time there was no overlap between Pilates and dance when I was a young person. So I went and explored a Pilates class. I found the movements to be very supportive of both my need to feel kind of safe and mobile in my body but also just being able to strengthen in a way that actually supported my posture and helped my back feel better. Um, and so that was the kind of beginning of my love affair with Pilates as a participant, as a partaker in Pilates and and that kind of carried with me as I managed ebbs and flows of my pain from that point on, carried with me as I managed ebbs and flows of my pain from that point on. I mean, you know, herniations heal but the brain doesn't always understand that like situation is safe. And I went through, you know, other kinds of things like hip pain and and shoulder pain and foot pain, and you know pain has kind of migrated with me. It's like this, this little companion that I've had. It's my longest, my longest running friendship.
Speaker 2:So you know, later on in my career I I, like I said, like you mentioned, I kind of reached a point in my corporate career where I was really not feeling well in my body or mentally and so I decided, you know, I want to find something I love, that brings me joy, and kind of rewrite my career path based on fulfillment instead of just kind of chasing external validation. And you know I said I've always loved Pilates. You know, maybe I would like teaching it and so that led me down that path. It turned out I really liked it and from the beginning for me because Pilates was always a pain management tool, it was not necessarily like a fitness thing for me, it was always how I manage my pain.
Speaker 2:I always wanted to work with the clients who had complex issues going on and weren't there for the. You know, give me the sculpted abs routine. You know, like those were not the clients I wanted to work with. So I've always predominantly worked one-on-one, even when I was in a fitness studio and folks would come in because they hear about it, you know, but it being a beneficial modality for various things, and they would come in with their aches and pains, with joint replacement rehabilitation, folks with MS there's lots of research about improvements with neurological conditions and balance with Pilates. So those are the folks who would come in seeking care and they would end up with me because I was kind of coming to terms with my relationship with disordered eating for so many decades and being inside an exercise space, a fitness aesthetic like, even though there was a lot of good things happening there around supporting people on their pain journey, it was ultimately an aesthetically oriented fitness space, and I felt like I couldn't reconcile in myself my values around all bodies being able to be healthy bodies and all bodies being able to be active and mobile bodies and this kind of pressure to walk in the door looking a certain way, and I couldn't jive that.
Speaker 2:So I sought to create a space that was, you know, not only geared towards pain as the front of the point of being here, you know, not just like we do exercise, but also to make it an environment where people understand that they are welcome here and that their body is deserving of movement, regardless of the size or shape or, you know, abilities and all those things like getting rid of all of the obstacles we put in front of people who are trying to get active and and and in other standard spaces, and so that is where the kind of the heart of the movement remedies. You know, vision and mission really came together with my own journey and experience. I hope that gave you that I know it's a bit longer of an answer but that's the background.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that that was really great, great. And I think one thing that just stood out to me too was, um, that Pilates. I think back, you know, maybe years ago I think, when Pilates suddenly became, or you had never really heard of Pilates, and then suddenly it's like a, it became like more of a thing, but, like I think any of these modalities yoga, pilates, like there there's like a oh, I don't know what, what you know, like it's an aesthetic an aesthetic yes, I know you had said that before right and aesthetic, that you know, suddenly you have to be really fit and in shape and at a certain body size and it gets real.
Speaker 1:It's really intimidating, especially and I get this like when you want to go and use it therapeutically or pain management to get yourself stronger and it just and I so I definitely remember that too I mean, it still goes on. You know like, yoga studios, I know, around me are like I would never walk in those doors because you either you better be like, fit and like, really like, great looking, and you know like you, you know you just have to fit like the certain mold. So I love that you are putting the, the pain management in front of. You know like, and then you, you still get fit, you know, but it's that's secondary and of course that would happen if you were, you know, dedicated to Pilates. But it's really about pain management first.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's so much about the language that we use too, because I think, like you even mentioned in the beginning, about kind of struggles you've had with certain spaces or this sense that like maybe you're going to show up and you're going to feel like you can't do the class the way that everyone else is doing it, or you're going to be this kind of outlier, or you're going to be given the, like remedial version of the fitness class and that doesn't feel good, especially as we age and we already feel like we're being kind of sidelined by society.
Speaker 2:That doesn't feel great in the body and in your experience. And so I think walking in knowing that, like you know, having different challenges in your body is actually the norm and frankly it is the norm Like people are hurting all over the place, chronic conditions face. Like 60% of people will face a chronic condition of some kind, and 20% or more of people have chronic pain, of adults have chronic pain in this country. So it's actually really really common, but it gets treated in these wellness spaces as the sort of outlier no-transcript, but just fitness neutral.
Speaker 1:I mean it's you, can. It sounds like you can come in with really any level of fitness because you're, because really the first objective is to figure out how to work with your pain well and it takes so much courage and I feel like you know we just have to congratulate people for even walking in the door.
Speaker 2:You know, I mean it's hard and so feeling comfortable in our bodies is a privilege. I think it's hard for most people and and so like why not try and help people feel comfortable in their bodies first and not make you know the changing or the augmentation of the body the first thing? I mean, how many times have we walked into new exercise spaces and it's kind of like, okay, here's the, the on a purse or whatever they're called. You know, like we're going to have you hold this thing and we're going to tell you what your body fat percentage is. It's like you just made eight assumptions about my goals, like nobody said that that was part of you know the requirements for being active and it's infuriating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I totally, 100% agree with you, and so I think what you're doing is really is really fantastic and really different. You know than I mean, I live in Fairfield County, you know. So there's just, there's an aesthetic thing happening here that maybe you know other parts of the country or not, but that, so that's really.
Speaker 2:And it's also as we would argue, and I don't know if you want to go down this path, but I mean it's also an unhealthy aesthetic, like actually it's actually not healthy to force yourself into that.
Speaker 2:You know like we, we put it on a pedestal as what health looks like, but it's it's, it's an ideal. That isn't, doesn't line up with the reality. And, and I want to think, I want us to be thinking about health and wellness as like feeling good in your body, feeling feeling that you can, feeling that you can live the life you want to live as fully as possible, as possible, regardless of of what pants are wearing when you do it.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic. I hope that you know I and I'm just hoping that that becomes like a bigger movement, you know, and and just keeps growing. I wanted to just go back to your childhood a little bit, because what do you feel like are the traits of chronic pain? How do people, you know, do you feel like people fit into a mold of you know who gets into like the chronic pain loop. You know that it gets difficult to get out of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I can speak from my experience and some of what I've researched, but certainly like not a clinician. So quick disclaimer. But I think that there's a couple things there's we have to recognize. First, that pain is a signal from the brain. Right Pain is the brain saying I'm in danger or my physical body is in danger. So that may be a real thing, or it may not be a real thing, but that's to the brain, it's real and so it creates pain. So there's the saying that fear is the fuel of pain. So having fear is a big part of that, because it creates this sort of code red situation in the body where the nervous system is, like particularly sensitized to what's happening around it.
Speaker 2:Now you can end up in that state for any number of reasons. You know. I think in my case I had a lot of anxiety growing up. You may be in an environment you feel unsafe in as a young person or even as an older person. I think that there's also, and there is research around folks just having a different level, a different threshold of sensitivity to sensory processing. So like for some people, loud noises are just really intolerable you know things like that and for other people you know they're not, and so I think I identify as someone who, you know, I get kind of overloaded in certain situations where there's sensory, really high level of sensory stimulation, so like shopping malls used to give me a really big headache, like I just couldn't deal with like the noise and the music and the people and like I. So I think that if your threshold for kind of reaching a state of, you know, danger is a little higher, you're probably going to end up responding with pain, and so you can. You can sort of end up with this like baseline. That's a little higher than, like you know, the average bear or the person next to you. And then if you have, you know, multiple injuries, you are at risk of developing chronic pain, depending on how your body kind of resolves that after the fact. So I think there's lots of young people who play sports and may end up having a bunch of injuries and then they develop a sensitivity in that area repeatedly. So every time they injure something else, the pain returns in that place because the brain just kind of like makes a connection between an injury that happened somewhere or maybe a force on the body and then pain elsewhere.
Speaker 2:But there's also research and Alan Gordon in his book the Way Out he's the one who does the pain reprocessing therapy talks talks a lot about overachievers and people pleasers and folks who are self-critical. People I work with who have chronic pain and who also are, like, totally convinced that it's their responsibility to like solve everyone else's problems is like pretty much like a bullseye, right. I mean so many of us, for whatever reason conditioning or you know who knows have come up with this personality type where we're internalizing other people's demands and are extremely critical movement perfectionists and that again can create a sense of, I think, on safety, lack of safety in the body, an overstimulated nervous system and, congruent with that, I have a theory from my own work that chronic dieting also is a potential risk factor for chronic pain, and the reason for that is because I believe the people that I work with who have chronic pain, one of the most difficult hurdles we usually have to overcome when it comes to moving is the fact that they have a very difficult time actually being in their bodies, being present in their bodies, actually sensing what's happening in their bodies as they're moving. So they're often reliant on a story they've been telling themselves about what they can or can't do, often a story about I'm not strong enough for that, I don't, my balance is no good, and then I will construct little mini experiments to kind of challenge those hypotheses and they're very often wrong.
Speaker 2:Folks are usually much more capable in their bodies than they think they are because of the stories and the narratives they have about their pain being a limiter. And those same people who are unable to actually experience their true physical capabilities are often people who over many years learn to ignore hunger cues because no one has gone on a restrictive diet without having to like overlook that growl. That is like evolution neurobiology telling you like eat or you're going to die. And so I think, when we like repeatedly ignore and ignore and ignore and teach ourselves to that, that whatever the body is telling us is happening is, is not a physical reality, it's kind of a. It's a, it's a mirage. Then we get into older, our older lives, and we have lost our connection to our physical body and we're very detached. So getting folks to reattach is a huge part of healing. And I believe diet culture and the diet that you know yo-yo dieting and weight cycling and all the things that many of us experience in an attempt to reach that unhealthy aesthetic. They just contribute to that detachment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really good point. I mean, I think dieting, chronic dieting completely disconnects you from your body, tells you, like you said, your hunger is. You're ignoring your hunger signals. You're not eating when you're physically hungry. You're not ignoring your hunger signals. You're not eating when you're physically hungry, you're not. And that's just the opposite of self-care and just and it doesn't. It just doesn't teach you how to just stay connected to an intuitively eat and and so I could see then that relationship to chronic pain. So it sounds like you have a lot of clients who have this association that would be really, really interesting to to have more research done on that, on that connection.
Speaker 1:I would love to to see that. But I mean, it just sounds like from your experience you've you've definitely have witnessed that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's the language people use, like even recently someone said someone who is has shared with me that that they're in in eating disorder recovery said you know, we were doing something, um, relatively challenging that required body weight, um support, and I could just sort of tell that they were nervous. And so I said you know, can you say more about what you're feeling right now? You know, does this feel scary to you in some way? And the person's response was I don't feel, I don't trust my body to hold me, I don't trust my body to support me.
Speaker 2:And, and again I think that's that's like a, it's a huge kind of, it's sort of a form of body dysmorphia, right when you visualize yourself.
Speaker 2:You see yourself as this weak, unhealthy, like unfit kind of thing.
Speaker 2:That's not the reality of the physical vessel that you're in, but you've become so and of course, having gone through this, we understand that you become so attached to the kind of projection of yourself that's in your head that you don't even know the one that you're in.
Speaker 2:And then I think there's also a lot of kind of self-loathing and resentment that happens in that, and so, again, it just pushes you. It pushes you towards the projection rather than the reality, and so I think that that definitely creates a sense of and in this particular person's particular case, it was really a sense of of I'm not safe, Like I'm, I'm going to fall, or I you know I'm not, I'm not going to be able to hold myself Like like you don't trust your body or you're angry with your body. And since we talked about fear being the fuel of pain, like surely all those experiences are only going to contribute to a pain experience. And if you are someone who maybe has, you know, a mild condition that would lead to pain, then it would, of course, exacerbate it right, it would turn up the volume so much. So sometimes we're dealing with a pain that arises out of something that would be minor in a body where the person felt very safe already, right. So we're kind of setting ourselves up for failure with that.
Speaker 1:You mentioned very briefly that you experienced an eating disorder. While I mean do you feel like? I mean, is this something you can relate your pain to?
Speaker 2:100%. It's really interesting because I mean and I've never been diagnosed as having an eating disorder, but I've went through cycles of restriction, extreme restriction, and then, you know, binging. You know, I think, because I never looked small no one really ever considered it. You know what I mean and that's also a problem we know exists in the medical system. But what's really interesting is I just reached this point maybe it was because I was about to turn 40, I don't know and I was like surely this is not going to continue to be my life, spending my Sunday packing foods into tiny little color-coded containers, when I could be like reading a book or doing something else, or like not being able to even focus on my tasks at work, because all I could think about was the things that I wanted to eat or the things that I felt guilt about eating, or the things that I like wished I could eat. Or someone else was eating and I was like mad that they got to it and I couldn't eat. You know, it was just kind of like always about food and I was like this is not a way to live. You know, I can't deal with this anymore. And at the time I was also in PT physical therapy for major hip pain, pelvic floor pain, shortly after I got plantar fasciitis. I mean, there was just like a whole lot of stuff going on. So I basically started you know, I don't know finding all of these influencers who had great books, like Christy Harrison and of course the, the Triboli, and I always forget the names but the intuitive eating book. You know, I just kind of went through book after book after book after book and every one of them was saying the same thing. And it's always that Minnesota starvation experiment always gets me every time how they put these men on a 1600 calorie a day diet, which is like above what I was allowed to eat on my diet at the time, and they were going crazy. They were like turning into super unstable humans. And I said, okay, so this makes sense, right, it just makes sense that this is making me feel crazy.
Speaker 2:So I started slowly dismantling my dieting norms, my rules, my food rules, my food rules that I had had that were passed down to me from generations of food rule lovers, you know, over over the generations of women in my family. And it was hard it's. I mean, I'm still, I still have struggled with that, and this is four years now, because it was really at the end of the quarantine. But what I noticed is that as I started taking this apart and I did put on a lot of weight I probably put on 20% of my body weight or something more than that, and that was hard at first to accept because I was certain that that meant I was going to be unhealthy. But since then I've been able to return to lifting weights at a very heavy level. I've been able to return to jogging. I've been able to go back to doing things in my body that I hadn't done since I was like 20.
Speaker 2:And it was, you know, slow process, but like it really just kind of reframed for me, like wow, I wasn't I mean, I had pain and everything going on, but like I also had this like incredible, like constrictive way of living that was just limiting my beliefs about myself and also just tying my body up in knots, to be honest with you.
Speaker 2:And now I'm in my forties and going through perimenopause, which is another fun topic, but I feel better in my body than I have in a decade at least. So like what does I mean that? I mean again this I'm an N of one. So for whatever that's worth like that has been my experience that piecing that apart and taking taking away the stories about my body's failure you know to be what I needed in my body's worthlessness because of the way that worth was defined in my you know, in the narrow framework I was given Once I kind of took that apart. It brought a ton of freedom and relief and possibilities for me that I think are very tied to the fact that my pain levels are so low I mean, like I said, lower they have been in decades.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it sounds like you let go of just the rigidity, right, and the rules and the and the, probably beating yourself up if you didn't do it perfectly and all of that, and, and I mean I can relate to that too.
Speaker 1:I mean I grew up with dieters all over the place, you know, in my family, and I was on a diet at my first diet at 11 and just hating my body for years, you know, and, yeah, did, did, did, did my chronic pain go hand in hand. I mean I have to, you know, I have to like, really like, think about that. But I mean I know I have other other instances where, like I mean I remember being in chronic pain and, like my teens also neck pain and stuff. But I and I also had some other like traumatic experiences that I had gone through so but the, so but the being on the diets and like restricted. I mean it is so punishing and I could definitely see this link between that and, you know, in a pain link. I mean that doesn't mean that everybody experiences who has chronic pain experiences issues with their dieting and, you know, weight loss and eating disorders, but it certainly seems like that can be part of the connection.
Speaker 2:When it wouldn't matter so much if it weren't for the fact that the medical system is continuing to tell people that the answer to chronic pain is weight loss. So, like, not only are we ignoring the fact that we are encouraging people to have a really combative, adversarial relationship with their own physical vessels from a young age, but we're also telling them to exacerbate that as their bodies change. And again, especially being a woman in my forties, you know going through lots of changes. I mean even still. Like, like they're bringing back all the feelings that I had as a younger person, because the first thing anybody wants to talk about is my belly fat. It's like what? Like like this, this can't be the most important. It isn't. We know the research already shows that it's not the biggest contributor to my mortality.
Speaker 2:So, like, why are we talking about that? Why are we diagnosing that? Why, and again, why are fitness spaces and wellness spaces all getting so hung up on? Even when I get, you know, instagram ads about you know, the menopause journey? Like they're always oriented around which supplement is going to suddenly shrink my you know my body? And it's like I feel like I'm having deja vu. Like this is not. Like we're having this conversation again when we shouldn't have been having it in the first place. And now people are in pain and they're focused on the wrong thing, and that's why it's like. No, the focus is to move. The focus is to move, to move, to move. Everyone in a body can move and you don't need to have a certain size, and what I've learned is that my size of my body actually doesn't limit my movement Like holy cow.
Speaker 1:I had no idea. Yeah, I know Well, you know good point about the menopause, like ads and everything. I mean that is out of control and and what an interesting. You know that's an interesting connection too, because you're first you go through puberty, right, and you're in teenager and like you're starting to feel really maybe awful about your body or like comparing, and then we go full circle and now we're in our like forties and fifties and and it's like second puberty, you know, because now we're losing in reverse, that we're in our like forties and fifties and and it's like second, second puberty, you know, because now we're losing in reverse, that we're losing our estrogen and I believe this is where a lot of eating disorders maybe they've been dormant for a little while kind of come, start to come back, because the pressure to lose weight, lose the belly fat, the meno belly, and it's confusing and I think it just stirs up so much emotion and I think, no surprise this is, I think, a big time for people in chronic pain around this age 100%.
Speaker 1:Is that from your hormones? Is that a connection too? It is it that we're just having to refocus in on our bodies?
Speaker 2:Well, Heather, if they did any medical research on women, we would have more answers about that. But exactly, yeah, Unfortunately we're dealing with, like you know, research done by on white male bodies for the past 50 years. But but, yeah, 100%, I mean there's definitely a big uptick in pain in this time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I totally, I think so. So you mentioned Alan Gordon. He wrote the book the Way Out I. That's one of my all time favorite books and and I know about the Pain Psychology Center all-time favorite books and and I know about the pain psychology center because I've that's sort of how I got into doing a lot of work on for myself in chronic pain. But you said you have written a book as well yes, I have let's talk about that, because I that's.
Speaker 1:It sounds like a great book and I love the title you're meant to move, because I really do believe that too. I think that people think I'm in pain and I can't move like others, but I think our bodies are meant to move, right. I mean, we are wired for that. So tell me a little bit about your book.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I wrote the book for a couple of reasons. First of all, I mean I do love to write, but first of all I wanted to kind of process three decades worth of dealing with chronic pain and kind of help people who were in the position I was in a while ago maybe get to where I got a little faster If I could share my story and then also what I've observed with my clients. There's a lot of anecdotes in it of client stories and experiences and their own words sometimes about this kind of trying to rewrite the narrative that we have about our ability to move and how pain factors in there. And one of the major hurdles for me, especially after the disc herniation it was a list of don'ts Don't bend at the waist, don't sit for too long, don't twist your body. And in hindsight I think a lot of times what happens is they give you guidance in the acute phase and it sticks with us, and so sometimes we keep doing the acute phase long after it's healed with us and so sometimes we keep doing the acute phase long after it's healed. But the reality is the research is very, very clear now that for the most part you want to move your joints, like immediately. I mean think about hip replacement, folks who, they like, have climb a stairs in like 24 hours. I mean healing is really tied to moving. And so that was advice, clinical advice I was given repeatedly that set me back years because of the fear that it generated and and kind of, and again, just like with the pain or processing. You know stuff too. It's like your, your brain, like links. A connection between bending over is how I hurt myself. Therefore I should never bend over. And now you've eliminated a really important movement from your vocabulary. So I wanted to take all of those, all of the bad information I received and what I've learned since then, and package it up for folks who they who could then take it and really have like a step-by-step guide.
Speaker 2:Because the second reason I wrote it is that I am a person, a single person, in a brick and mortar studio in Boston and I can only see so many people. But I feel like there's a lot of work that people can do on their own. I mean, as magnificent as Pilates and the equipment are, you know, there is a lot you can do just working by yourself. And so it's written in such a way that it would be a 12 to 14 week process where you can go through all the different stages with a lesson and activities for each week, and it comes with a journal that comes with it and some you know recommended movement exercise videos, and then by the end, you should be able to design a movement program for yourself, the one that's catered to not just what your body feels up for in this season, but also like what your goal is, and I don't mean your goal like I need to do 10 pushups, but like I want to be able to to climb the steps of the Cinque Terre trails or whatever I, you know, I want to be able to carry my groceries across across the parking lot like really realistic goals that have to do with how we live and I. That's how I think our movement programs should be designed. They should be designed around keeping us functional into our older age, like that's the point. So that's the way you're meant to move is structured.
Speaker 2:It tackles all the factors around why pain persists in our bodies. Really, we're trying to remove that self-blame and the shame that comes with the message of you know. Chronic pain is therefore somehow your problem or your fault because of you know, maybe choices which, I think again, the weight loss rhetoric really does in the medical system. So so yeah, I'm really excited about it being out in the world and hope that people are able to find that they can chart a new path toward an active life.
Speaker 2:Because, you know, not only is movement regular movement, I believe, the most important health promoting behavior that we can, that we can commit ourselves to, but it also, you know, is really good for us, even when we're hurting because of the chemical. You know chemical benefits, inflammation benefits, cardiovascular disease prevention, I mean autoimmune disease support, like every single system in our body reacts really well to movement. So it's not just you're meant to move, like get off the couch, because that is kind of part of it, like we have we've built a modern sedentary society and we need to rewrite the rules but it's also you're meant to move in the sense that finding any form of movement will benefit, like reap rewards for, for all of your, your physical systems, even if the movement is not, you know, what we would define classically as exercise.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's so, that's great, cause I was going to say I know you're in a brick and mortar business in Boston and I wish that you lived closer to me. I mean not that far away, but but I would love to have you here with me because I would be signing up in a second. So that's, that's so great, that you have a book with a program in it and that people can go and do that on their own. I also know about like that, that feeling, um, this this side note I just heard you say you know that to to get out of the feeling like it's my fault, like the pain's my fault, because I lived with that for years, years.
Speaker 1:You know that, like I, it's the, the perfectionist people like I mean you know all of that, that just felt like I definitely did something wrong, you know, and so therefore, it's on my fault. And how am I supposed to fix this? And I mean it. Just, you know, and that's a whole your spiral too. So you're yeah, so your book sounds really actionable and gives people the. You know the steps to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it. You know it's a start of a journey, like I think it's. You can get through it relatively quickly if you were to sit and read a cover to cover, but it really shares the re, the research behind a lot of what I do and, again, the stories behind what I do. And if folks are curious, even for yourself, um, and want to dk at movementremediesorg, I'm happy to share a pass for my restorative Pilates mat class, which is available virtually three times a week. So I just think it's important that people find what speaks to them in terms of being active and not let those, the fear, a lot of fear, the fear, the guilt, the not, it not being enough. Don't let all those, those obstacles that we build up in our minds get in the way of what is going to really benefit you in the in the long run. And I know it's a fight. I mean, it's a fight for me. I have a room full of equipment and it's a fight for me to get moving sometimes, but I'm always glad when I do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great, so people can connect with you online and take a class with you a math class, Okay that's great.
Speaker 1:Good Well, DK, it was so nice talking with you and really I mean I want to keep this conversation going about the connection between dieting and body image and disordered eating and chronic pain, because I think it's really important and you're doing great work. I think it's just, you know, fantastic. I will put all the links for you in the show notes so people can get in touch with you. And thank you again, my pleasure, Thanks for having me.