Real Food Stories
The question of "what to eat" can feel endlessly confusing, especially when we contend with our own deeply ingrained beliefs and stories around food. Blame social media, the headline news, and let's not get started on family influences. Passed down from generations of women and men to their daughters, it's no wonder women are so baffled about how to stay healthy the older we get.
As a nutritionist and healthy eating chef, combined with her own personal and professional experience, Heather Carey has been connected to years of stories related to diets, weight loss, food fads, staying healthy, cooking well, and eating well. Beliefs around food start the day we try our first vegetables as babies and get solidified through our families, cultures, and messages we receive throughout our lifetime.
We have the power to call out our food beliefs so we can finally make peace with what we eat and get on with enjoying the real food and lives we deserve. Listen in to find out how to have your own happy ending to your real food story. Connect with Heather at heather@heathercarey.com or visit her website at www.heathercarey.com or www.greenpalettekitchen.com
Real Food Stories
121. Peri, Post & Everything in Between with Erika Shannon
From dreaded adversary to unexpected ally, menopause transforms from something women merely survive into a doorway to authentic living. This candid conversation between two menopause specialists—one navigating perimenopause in her 40's, the other firmly in menopause at 57—delivers the straight talk about hormones, fitness, nutrition, and identity that's missing from most menopause discussions.
Erika Shannon reveals how early perimenopause symptoms disrupted her life as a fitness instructor, eventually leading her to specialize in menopause-specific fitness approaches. And I share my struggle to get medical support in my 40s when perimenopause "didn't even have a name." Together, they dismantle popular myths and misconceptions about exercise, supplements, diets and social media (weighted vests, high-intensity workouts, creatine supplements, and protein obsessions and our the cottage cheese craze just to start), offering evidence-based alternatives that actually support women's changing bodies.
Whether you're approaching perimenopause, in the thick of symptoms, or emerging on the other side, this episode offers practical wisdom about hormone therapy, efficient workout methods, nutritional priorities, and the profound opportunity to reimagine your life. Because as both of us emphasize, well-nourishment extends beyond food to encompass sleep, movement, stress management, and creating space for what genuinely feeds your spirit.
The greatest takeaway? This transition represents the unexpected gift of menopause: permission to prioritize what truly matters.
How To Find Erika
Erika's Website HERE
Erika on Instagram HERE
Get one FREE month of Erikas Moving Through Menopause Bundle HERE
I would love to hear from you! What did you think of the episode? Share it with me :)
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Hang out with Heather on IG @greenpalettekitchen or on FB HERE.
Let's Talk!
Whether you are looking for 1-1 nutrition coaching or kitchen coaching let's have a chat. Click HERE to reach out to Heather.
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Hello everybody and welcome back to Real Food Stories, where we talk about the messy, beautiful and ever-changing relationship we have with food, health and ourselves, especially as women in our 40s and beyond.
Speaker 1:Today I want to talk about something that's been on my heart lately, and that is community. Now, if you're anything like me, or like many of the women I work with, you've probably had moments where you have felt really alone about navigating midlife. I mean, I certainly have had more than my share of this feeling like no one else gets me, the body changes, the hormone shifts, the mood swings, the weight struggles and the endless advice quote unquote advice online that just doesn't seem made for us. So that's why I created the Well-Nourished Woman. This is a free community. It's off social media, which I love. There's no more scrolling through Facebook, getting caught up in somebody else's ads and getting distracted and then wondering why you're even on Facebook in the first place. This is off social media and it is for women 40 plus plus. It's where you can show up as you are, no judgment. You can ask questions, get answers grounded in real science and connect with other women who get it. Now I'm just starting this community. We're just getting ourselves off the ground and I already have an amazing group of women in there. But let me tell you a little bit about what else you'll find if you join the community. You will get fresh, seasonal recipes that actually support your hormones and your energy, and I'm about to launch a summer recipe club because I know we all get out of ideas about actually what to make. I'm going to be having Q&A threads where I answer your real life nutrition and lifestyle questions. I want to talk in there about the latest well-researched insights on what's happening in our bodies and what actually really helps. And, most of all, I want to be there to offer support. I mean real support from me, from other women who aren't here to sell you a cleanse or just trying to convince you to just try harder or just suck it up or tough it out. So please join the Well-Nourished Woman community. It's free and the link is going to be in my show notes. I would love to see you in there free, and the link is going to be in my show notes. I would love to see you in there Now.
Speaker 1:On today's episode, this is a perfect reflection of why that kind of space matters. I sat down with Erica Shannon, who is also a menopause coach, and just talking openly with her reminded me how powerful it is to be seen and heard. That conversation I had with her. It was medicine in itself and you definitely don't want to miss it. So if you've ever felt like you're figuring out this all alone, know that you don't have to. So let's dive in with my conversation with Erica.
Speaker 1:Hi everybody, welcome back to the Real Food Stories podcast. Today I've got Erica Shannon with me, and Erica is a fitness and wellness industry expert with two decades of experience under her belt. Erica, like me, is a certified menopause coaching specialist and helps women on their menopause journey optimize their lives and reduce their symptoms through exercise, nutrition, sleep regulation, stress management and self-care. She's also a Gen X mom of a tween daughter and a woman officially in perimenopause, and I am your host, heather Carey, a woman who is officially in menopause and about to be postmenopausal. So, hi, erica, I'm so glad you're here today and, after meeting and talking to you off air, I'm really looking forward to this chat because I think it's such a cool opportunity. You are in your early 40s and going through perimenopause, and I am in my late fifties, fully in menopause.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm actually in my late forties. I just turned 49. Oh, you just turned 49.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, all right, great Well. I started going through perimenopause in my early forties, so maybe that's, that's what I heard, but still, you're in your 40s, yes, which is still on by a thread. Yes, still like a young buck in like the menopause world and I am like on the tail end of 57. So I thought it would be great to just have a real conversation about what this transition looks like from both sides.
Speaker 2:We need real conversations about this, so it's important. Thanks for doing this and for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course, Because there's so much confusion out there about hormones, about fitness, about nutrition. I mean, I don't know about you, but I am on the internet, social media, just kind of stalking people's pages because I am just endlessly fascinated with some of the quackiness I see and the confusion because women are. So I mean, we're in a very vulnerable time right now and marketing wellness gurus they know that, so they're going to try to sell us the gamut of products and supplements and ways to do menopause and kind of tell us that it's wrong. And so I know that you are going to have a lot of insight to share, from your fitness perspective especially.
Speaker 1:So, thanks for joining me. I'm excited to dive in. So why don't we just start? Can you share a bit about your journey? Don't we just start? Can you share a bit about your journey? My listeners have certainly heard a lot about my journey. I've talked about my menopause experience kind of endlessly on this podcast. So what brought you into the world of fitness and then into menopause coaching?
Speaker 2:Well, I came to New York City after college to be a Broadway star. I was a musical theater person and after a few years I kind of burned out on that. I made a little career switch and I went from being a performer to a manager, a theatrical general manager, and then I started becoming like a real gym rat and I had this amazing mentor and she asked me if I would be interested in general managing her fitness company, and so I made the switch from theater to fitness on the management and production side and then through her I started teaching, and that was in 2006. So 19 years ago Um and I taught for Equinox and Reebok and all those kind of big box gyms in New York city, and then I eventually um got bought by soul cycle and worked for them for a while. And it was actually at soul cycle when I started feeling the effects of perimenopause.
Speaker 2:I was in my early thirties. I had or sorry, early forties of perimenopause. I was in my early 30s. I had or sorry, early 40s. I had a young daughter who was, you know, kind of approaching the kindergarten era and I was assigned 530 AM classes two times a week, and so two times a week I had to get up at 345 in the morning so that I could get ready and get myself to Short Hills, New Jersey, to teach at 5.45. And it was brutal and it started affecting me in really weird ways. Like I was feeling really depressed. I wasn't able to sleep, even though I knew I had to sleep. My circadian rhythm was all thrown off, and I did it for about seven months and then I went to see my doctor and I was like what, what am I feeling? I'm feeling like angry and I'm feeling this. And he's like well, you know, you might be in perimenopause and and sleep has a lot to do with that Um, it can really make your symptoms worse if you don't have a regular sleep schedule. And I was like, really and that was when I discovered that perimenopause lasts as long as it does, Because back then I think it was like 2017 or something like that I was like I didn't know a lot about menopause and perimenopause.
Speaker 2:Definitely nobody was talking about it back then and nobody in the fitness industry was talking about it back then either, and nobody in the fitness industry was talking about it back then either. And it's clear to me now, with hindsight being 2020, that there really was nothing for perimenopausal, menopausal women from a fitness perspective, because it was all about high intensity training back then, and that's just not what our bodies want to do when we're going through this phase. So I promptly dropped that 5.45 am class and started paying attention to my cycle, my hormones, just like my sleep schedule, and how it affected how I felt. And so when I started, you know, in the fitness industry you have to get continued education credits, and so I started focusing more on women's health.
Speaker 2:I started focusing my continued education on perimenopause, active aging and anything I could get my hands on understanding hormones, heart rate performance, all kinds of stuff and that's kind of how I started falling down the rabbit hole of helping women this age learn how to exercise safely and be healthy, and it's really an all-encompassing thing. Like fitness is just one spoke of the wheel, but there are definitely things that we want to change. At this age we can't do what we used to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you're lucky that your doctor even said you might be in perimenopause. Because, just you know, back up, even when I was turning in my early 40s and I had an inkling that could this be perimenopause, I was just having some menopause-type symptoms, even though I was still getting my period and everything, and my doctors were like I don't know what you're talking about. It was like perimenopause, like didn't even have, like there was no name for it. And I knew enough to think like could I, should I go on hormones. And I just had. You know, my PCP told me that she would rather go to jail than be on estrogen. You know, I think in my just even those couple of years difference from your age to my age, there was just more. It was just a big secret, huge secret.
Speaker 2:No, one talked about it.
Speaker 1:Afraid of hormone therapy, very afraid. My gynecologist was very afraid my PCP, and no one suggested, yeah, hormones to me at all. But I knew I feel like I just knew enough. I wanted to definitely get on hormones because I was having some symptoms that were becoming really bothersome. Now I want to talk about your, the fitness and you know that connection. But tell me, I mean beyond your energy at the five to 30 AM, energy which I totally get, would not work for me either. Horrible, were you having other symptoms At that point.
Speaker 2:I wasn't um at that point. Actually, that was around the time when I had an endometrial ablation because I had polyps in my uterus and I was having really painful periods and really big bloating situations where it was really incapacitating for me as a fitness instructor and an on-camera instructor and I couldn't work when that would happen. And so I finally did go get an ultrasound and they found polyps. And so at that point my doctor said listen, if you're done having kids and you don't want to deal with your period anymore and it is painful, he's like I'm already going up there to take these polyps out. Like, do you want an ablation? And I was like really on the fence because you know, having the inside of your body cauterized on purpose is kind of a you know it's, it's a big choice. Yeah. And in the end I was like you know what? Yeah, let's do it. And I haven't had a period since which makes perimenopause that much more interesting.
Speaker 2:Because, I have to. I have to gauge my cycle based on my symptoms, which I can do because I'm a nerd like that. But but it was. It wasn't until a couple years ago that I started being really affected by it. Like I didn't go on hormone therapy till last year because my symptoms were pretty mild and I was able to regulate. But when the hot flashes started and then I got really depressed, I had bad cyclical depression and that's how I knew it was hormonal, because every month there was a couple days that it was just horrible. I would cry and I would wallow and I would be so.
Speaker 2:I just I was inconsolable, and I have been in so many different spiritual practices and so many different ways of self-regulating and knowing how to pull yourself out of it, and practicing gratitude and all the tools that I had in my toolbox, with almost 20 years of learning, had no effect and I knew that that was what it was, and so that was when I started getting serious about taking better care of myself, and I started first by trying to regulate myself without taking hormones, just to see, and then, in the end, I just made the decision.
Speaker 2:I wanted the whole shebang, but I started with the topical vaginal estrogen, which was for the genitourinary syndrome of menopause, because the vaginal dryness is something that really was bothering me and so that helped that tremendously. And then I was like, okay, let's try the patch and the little progesterone pill, and I feel so much better and I haven't had a hot flash in a long time. But yeah, and it can present differently in every single woman. There's no formula, which is what makes it maddening every single woman there's no formula which is what makes it maddening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so individualized that your symptoms might not be my symptoms and, and I think, a lot of women. I think we're getting much more educated now. But again back, you know, just back up to my forties, that no one, no one talked about it. I mean I had no friends talking about it.
Speaker 1:to me it was like a big secret and I pushed for hormones back then, and no, I was having really bad vaginal dryness and definitely having hot flashes and and and everything and it, but it was met with a lot of resistance from doctors and definitely if I, I could barely even talk to my friends about it because they like just, it was just like a so, so taboo, but it sounds like no, it's like, all of a sudden, our entire identity as women is going down the toilet and we have nobody to talk to about it, because we're afraid we're the only one yes
Speaker 1:we're definitely not no, well, now fast forward.
Speaker 1:I have friends who are just starting hormones now because I think it's becoming more, more accepted and yeah, there's no that, there's a ton of new research out now yeah, so we know that, that the studies from back in the 2000s have been debunked, thank God, for most women and it can be super, super helpful for some of these symptoms, because all the amount of exercising, all the amount of food and nutrition is not going to take away your hot flashes right or your vaginal dryness, it's just not. We really do need some intervention.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the body is depleted of estrogen and progesterone and that affects every major organ system in the body. And I think you know, as a menopause coach specialist, that's the one thing that I was like oh my my God like when I did that certification I couldn't even believe how it. I mean, I knew it affected, it felt like it was over, it overtook everything. But it was proven in that certification that, oh my God like that. Why? That is why my palms are itchy, that is why I can't remember my middle name, that is why I'm having trouble regulating my body temperature, because estrogen receptors are everywhere in our bodies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, they affect, right. Estrogen affects us from head to toe, literally Our brains, our bones, our heart, our digestion, our weight distribution. It literally affects everything. So some subtle, these subtle symptoms that you would never think might be caused by an estrogen deficiency yeah, are, yeah, are definitely can be menopause, for sure I get questions from people sometimes that are like do I have perimenopause?
Speaker 2:And I'm like, do I have it? It's so funny, it's like a disease. But it's like are you a woman in your forties? Then you're in perimenopause. There's no question, like it is just happening, it's just the way it goes, you're in it.
Speaker 1:Right. Welcome to menopause, the transition it's here, for you the change. Yeah, and some women can sort of slide through and have no symptoms, really, or minimal. They barely even notice it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And some women get wrecked with it. How do you navigate for your clients the fear that they might still have around using hormones?
Speaker 2:they might still have around using hormones. Well, the first thing I do is just tell them that I'm not a doctor and tell them that I'm there to help them advocate for themselves. But what I want them to know and I think the saddest thing that I'm discovering as a coach is how many of us gaslight ourselves into thinking that it's not what it is. How many of us gaslight ourselves into like, oh, I'm probably just making it up Just to give them some reassurance that what they're feeling is real and valid is a major part of my job, and then to help guide them to someone who can listen.
Speaker 2:Often they're going to see a PCP who doesn't have the right education, or they're going to see an OBGYN who graduated in the 90s, when, or you know, in that early 2000s pocket where we learned that, you know, the WHI was all over it saying it caused breast cancer, and so they're going off of old research. So then I send them to menopauseorg and I say you got to find another provider and if they are concerned about the risks, you have to teach them what the benefits are and then have them talk to their doctor about determining if the benefits outweigh the risks for them as a person with their health history at their age, at their phase of menopause, and nine times out of 10, the benefits outweigh the risks, especially as we grow older, especially if we start that hormone therapy within that 10 year pocket before or before and after menopause. That's when we see the greatest benefits of hormone therapy as far as bone strength, lean muscle mass, balance and coordination, brain function, cognitive function.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I'm happy that I knew enough back in my 40s to go, but it wasn't back in my 40s. I wasn't really thinking about those other secondary benefits like bone health.
Speaker 2:No, nobody is.
Speaker 1:Because it wasn't talked about back then. But now I'm like oh, I'm so happy I did end up going on it when I did, because I mean, I've sometimes tried to talk some of my friends or like even clients into like, not, I'm not pushing it Right. Everyone's individual and it is their individual choice to go on it, but right, the sooner you start it, the more long term benefits you can have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the other hurdle too is that people think they need a blood test. People think they need all this hormone like a hormone panel workup, when the truth is, and I will always say if you want to get a blood test, go get a blood test Like you can, because always rule out other possibilities with thyroid or anything else. I think that's great.
Speaker 1:To do that.
Speaker 2:But your hormones fluctuate so often wildly chaotically that it's only a snapshot and it's not an accurate you know point of you know source of truth. Well, that's just a marketing scam too, right I mean.
Speaker 1:So I really steer people away from going to those like menopause clinics or you know where they're like you need to do testing and even food sensitivity tests, all sorts of like totally unnecessary, expensive testing. You know you're in menopause, I mean you know you're in perimenopause, you're in your late forties you, you're in menopause, I mean you know you're in perimenopause, you're in your late forties, you are definitely perimenopausal, yeah, and here are the symptoms yeah, you have them all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're, and you're good, right. And when you're stopped getting your period, then you definitely are postmenopausal. I mean, you don't need a test for that.
Speaker 2:I also think another. Another helpful thing to tell clients whenever they're doubting it is say I also think another helpful thing to tell clients whenever they're doubting it is say are you on birth control, have you ever been on birth control? Because that is so much riskier and so much higher dose than menopausal hormone therapy.
Speaker 1:And you've been on it with no question for 30 years, 40 years. That's. The amazing thing is that I think some women are perfectly okay with being on birth control pills and then when you suggest hormone therapy, it's like, oh, that feels really dangerous. Which is? It's really like a 10th of the dose of a birth control pill. Yeah, yeah, I know it's interesting the psychology behind it that we've just been trained, or we've been trained also just to it's. Menopause is just something you got to suck up.
Speaker 1:You got to just deal with that and it's going to. It's going to suck for a number of years and then you get through it, but you don't really. I mean you never get over menopause?
Speaker 2:No, and you don't enjoy your life. I mean that depression that I experienced was debilitating and and nobody wants to live like that. It sucks the life out of you. You don't wanna live like that and you don't have to, so why would you make that choice?
Speaker 1:Just going off of that, I know that. So, for women who are like think that medication is bad, all medication's bad and they wanna do things naturally right. So let's talk about some of those myths that we hear in, like the fitness world, especially in the nutrition world, about how to help hormones, because back when I was in my 40s, early 40s, I mean, there was all sorts of herbs right Because hormones were bad, you know so we were going to try to take ginseng and eat tofu and soy milk Ashwagandha yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and all things like that. And you know these wellness gurus are just mark, you know they're just taking advantage of women who are very vulnerable In a big way.
Speaker 1:And in the fitness world too. I see a lot on social media about I want to talk about, like weighted vests and strength training. I mean a lot of these things are good, or maybe not so good, or you know. So let's talk about them first. Let's let's go into the fitness. Okay, Tell me about weighted vests, because this is a very hot topic with women in my circle right now. Are weighted vests good, or are they just a total marketing scam?
Speaker 2:I think they're great. To be honest, I have one, but you've got to get one that's right for your body and for your weight. You should get 10% of your body weight for your vest, for your weight. You should get 10% of your body weight for your vest. But if you, if the thing about a weighted vest is when you work out with a weighted vest on, or even when you walk with a weighted vest on, you put more load on your body and so that you're gonna, you're gonna have, you're gonna work harder to do what you usually do, so that's going to increase your caloric output, it's going to increase your heart rate and those things are all good. So why wouldn't you do those things?
Speaker 2:Where I see people get a little bit misguided around weighted vests are if they're wearing one, that's too um situation that you, that you shouldn't be wearing that weighted vest. Or, for example, like if you have osteoporosis, like talk to your doctor before putting on extra weight. That's going to give you extra impact. If you have, you know, really fragile bones, you have to think about where you are, always, start where you are, and if you haven't gotten out to walk a mile in 10 years, go walk a mile first without putting on a weighted vest for a little while and then put on the weighted vest, and I would say that about weights and strength training as well. You got to start where you are. You're going to do fine in perimenopause If you move your body for 150 minutes a week. You're going to do fine. You know, it doesn't matter if you have a weighted vest. You don't need a weighted vest to make it through perimenopause If you are a regular worker outer and you want to give a little extra bang for your buck, like when I got my weighted vest, I actually tested the data on it.
Speaker 2:I am such a dork and I recorded me taking a walk on this one path without it and me taking a walk on that same path the next day with it, and I burned an average of one and a half calories more a minute. Okay, great, but you know it's not a big deal. That's my, that's my take on the weighted vests. Love it, don't need it.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean, I think that some women might think that this would replace strength training or lifting weights. And I think that's where the confusion lies that this is not a replacement for good old strength training.
Speaker 2:Absolutely not Right.
Speaker 1:We want to be lifting heavy right.
Speaker 2:Yes, you want to be lifting things, so you want things to be functional. At this phase of life, especially, if you don't move it, you lose it. So functional movement is the way to go and you got to load it up with weights. So the functional moves are squat, carry, rotate are squat, carry, rotate, push, pull and hinge.
Speaker 2:If you can do those things and add load to that progressively, so in over time, increasing your weight more and more, you are going to not only build healthy, lean muscle mass that estrogen depletion will take away from you and strengthen your bones and the joints and the muscles around those bones. Right, you are going to feel so much better and your health span is going to be so much longer than it would have otherwise. Because when we have weak bones, when our joints are shot, when we have osteoporosis, when we're older I heard a statistic and I don't quote me on this, but I feel like it's one in four women will have an. When you're old, because that's right you end up in the hospital, you can get sepsis, you can get, you know, you can have complications, and then you never get out of bed again and then you can't move anymore and then you're it's over you know.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, absolutely so. Strength training is great for muscle mass. It's great for your bones, yeah.
Speaker 2:And to help prevent falling, yes, balance training strength training, you know, do unilateral movements, so one side at a time. That's going to help you, as you age, keep your balance. But here's the other thing Everybody's like strength training, strength training but you still have to do cardio. Well, okay, you still have a beating heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So that's a good question, because in the social media stratosphere I keep seeing that we don't have to really focus, the over focus on strength training. I mean, strength training is great, but all of a sudden we should be just strength training and not, you know, and backing off of cardio, because it raises our cortisol and there's overtraining, and so, yeah, speak to me about that a little bit. I mean, I know, I mean walking is amazing and great and walking is amazing.
Speaker 2:Walking briskly is better Brisk is always better it's going to take you into a higher heart rate zone. Walking on an incline is amazing. You want to walk or get cardiovascular activity that is going to raise your heart rate to that middle of the heart rate zones. So you want it to be moderate and moderately hard. So if you are doing the talk test and you can say a couple, you can still have a conversation, but you're out of breath when you're having it or you have to like pause after a couple sentences. That's high, high heart rate zone. We it's still good to get there Because you know doing a little hit here and there is always good for you, it's so good for your cardiovascular health. But you're right, too much of it is going to tip the scales and your cortisol is going to go into overdrive. We don't want that. So moderate like heart, moderate hard cardio is the sweet spot for us at this age and it's and it's like endurance training versus HIIT training all the time.
Speaker 1:So explain HIIT training. I know what that means, but just explain to my audience what that, what that's so high intensity interval training.
Speaker 2:That's what HIT stands for. H-i-i-t is a method of exercise where you go to your absolute max capacity, all out, breathless, trying at a 10, as hard as you possibly can for certain intervals of time and then taking an interval of rest. So HIIT training is, like you know, 30 or 45 seconds at your ultimate, 10, 20 seconds off, take a breather. You can do HIIT in a lot of different intervals. You could do 30, 30, you could do 45, 15,. You know you can do it any way you want to, but it's about. It's about getting your heart rate up really fast and then rest, and then up again and then rest. Low intensity interval training is kind of the same thing, but you don't get as high. It's not an all out situation. So if you're on a bike and you want to do a hit, you're going to put as much resistance on and sprint as fast as you possibly go and then absolutely rest, take all the resistance off and just roll your legs and breathe, and then do it again, and then do it again, and then do it again.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you what my favorite method of training is that it just gives you every bang for your buck. And in my online workout platform I do a lot of this. It's called peripheral heart action and peripheral heart action is a method of exercising. It is strength training, where you shunt your blood from your upper body to your lower body over and over again. So you work in one minute intervals with weights, you do only upper body moves and then you switch right away, with no breaks, to lower body and you do this over and over again. A it gets your heart rate into that sweet spot. B you're doing strength training, everybody wins and you get to move on with your day. It's super efficient, it's feels good, it gives you energy and it's perfect for women in perimenopause and menopause.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sounds. It sounds great and a very effective and kind of gets the job done Right. We're all busy and nobody has time for anything. Yeah exactly, but any right, we want to start where we're at, like you said before, and and just so, anything is better than nothing.
Speaker 2:Use it or lose it. Yeah, If you love pickleball, pickleball is great cardio. If you love swimming, swimming is great cardio. If you love yoga, certain types of yoga are great. Strength training body weight strength training.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the time is now to start. I mean, it's not like we're, it's never too late.
Speaker 2:Also, exercise feeds into insulin resistance. It helps your blood sugar regulate. That's right, yeah, and that's where the crossover between fitness and nutrition lie.
Speaker 1:Right, there's a billion benefits for exercising and then just switching our mindset a little bit. That goes from taking those high-intensity boot camp classes only to strength training and building more muscle, and there's just a massive benefit for that.
Speaker 2:And there's no difference between if you do a 45-minute class or if you break it up into three or four 7 to 10-minute increments throughout the day. I always tell my clients it's not an all or nothing, it's an all or something. So if you have an Apple watch and that Apple watch says to you it's time to stand up, then stand up, do 15 squats, take a walk up and down the stairs a couple of times and then go sit down. It's better than nothing, it'll add up it all does.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about some nutrition stuff and those myths that I definitely hear and contend with all the time around menopause, perimenopause and what we should be eating, what we should be like, should we be taking supplements what are you hearing? Going into perimenopause, was there any chatter for you like out on the internet about like what you should be doing as far as your food?
Speaker 2:The only thing that I, I don't, I can't, I don't really know if it came from the internet or just from my certifications and research on my own is that so many of our symptoms are due to inflammation, and so turning toward an anti-inflammatory diet is something that I always suggest. I also always suggest that people stop drinking alcohol because-.
Speaker 2:I do as well, yeah there's no benefit at all, and so those are the things that it's really an interesting. It's a hard sell to a lot of women in perimenopause, especially because it's a coping mechanism for a lot of people and it's very socially acceptable. I mean, how many, how many t-shirts and glasses have you seen that say like mommy needs her wine and of course you know wine time and all that.
Speaker 2:I think that it's really socially difficult to break away from the socially accepted have a drink to wind down, because when you have that drink to wind down you're up at three o'clock in the morning like boing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and being in perimenopause or menopause, it just gets worse. I mean, our ability to metabolize alcohol just gets worse. I mean, I know for me, I stopped drinking seven years ago, when I turned 50 and I and I just it. It just wasn't serving me anymore, and I totally understand that social um brainwashing with it because I was in it. I mean it just. Everything got was connected to having a glass of wine with my friends. The benefits, though, of not drinking, especially in menopause, are just huge.
Speaker 1:I can't even like, state it enough. I mean it's just. But yeah, it's a hard sell. It's a hard sell for you know, because I think you're, because we're going through so much in perimenopause and menopause and just there's a lot to contend with. You know, there's a lot of stress, a lot of new added stress. You're not feeling great physically and if you're used to having alcohol as your coping mechanism, it's hard to unlink it. I know you're like like give me my vice.
Speaker 2:Just let me have one you know the really die hard.
Speaker 2:The really die hard. You know. I mean, when I was having a lot of, I had a lot of anxiety toward the end of last year, I lost one of my dearest friends and it was just a lot. Yeah, and I, I quit caffeine for a little while and it definitely helped, but now I'm back on I. I'm like I have one vice. Like please just let me have my. I just want to have a cup of coffee. Like, yes, in the world of health and wellness, should we be drinking caffeine every day? No, but guess what. Like I'd rather drink coffee than alcohol at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's fine. It's funny you say that because I just stopped drinking caffeine. I'm not a big caffeine drinker at all. I drink one cup of like pretty strong tea in the morning, but I just wanted to experiment with stopping it because I know just pelvic and bladder health and everything I was like this is irritating, I feel like it could be irritating me. So let me just experiment and stop for a couple of weeks and it definitely helped. It's helped a lot, but oh yeah. So now I'm drinking a little green tea. It's like not as strong as what I was drinking. The benefits, for me at least, of not having the caffeine. It just like over activates my bladder. So it's you know just something.
Speaker 2:What are your thoughts on mushroom coffees?
Speaker 1:I think they're fine to drink. You know all of those mushrooms, I mean. I think that there's. I think I'm neutral about it. I think that there's, you know, some health benefits, but you don't necessarily like, need or need to waste your money.
Speaker 2:I mean, it doesn't taste like coffee, so why no it's not coffee and it's not caffeine.
Speaker 1:And you know it's funny. I just saw a study yesterday well, this is in the new york times, so I'm not even gonna say it was a study, was that? It was just an observational study that they did. They were following women in the women's health initiative. I think you know tens of thousands of women and they found that coffee drinkers and this is just another, we've kind of known this already that coffee there are some benefits to drinking coffee. They don't know exactly what or why the benefits. Like, why is there a benefit to drinking coffee? But the conclusion is that coffee drinkers live longer. But the conclusion is that coffee drinkers live longer. So it's not a terrible thing to have in your diet.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Just don't drink it too late in the day.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, no I can't drink caffeine afternoon. That's a non-starter.
Speaker 1:I can't do it. Yeah, I'm so sensitive to caffeine it's ridiculous how sensitive I am. I'm so sensitive to caffeine it's like ridiculous how sensitive I am.
Speaker 2:I have become incredibly protective of my sleeps in my perimenopausal era.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Nothing is going to mess with my sleeps. I am crazy. I feel exactly the same.
Speaker 1:I mean my sleep is everything and especially I know what you used to be able to get away with. You know, and you'll see, it just gets like a little harder, like it just everything, just sort of like shifts a little, and my sleep is everything. Everything, yeah, everything, I mean my day is just like just wrong if I don't get a full like seven to eight hours of sleep.
Speaker 2:Same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's and it and. But that's hard when we go through menopause is getting a good night's sleep, especially if you are having night sweats and you're getting woken up like that in the middle of the night.
Speaker 2:I have a client who is fully post-menopausal and she said to me last week my hot flashes are my night sweats are coming back at night. I don't know why. She's like, all of a sudden they're back. And I said, well, what temperature do you keep the room at? And she's like, well, we keep it at 76. And I said, okay, well, how about lowering that about 10 degrees? Well, how about?
Speaker 1:lowering that about 10 degrees.
Speaker 2:You should see my room is like a refrigerator. Oh 66 in this house.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 66. Yeah, no, it has to. I know my daughter's like I'm cold, I was like put a sweatshirt on.
Speaker 2:That's what I say to my husband now.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So my kids are now older and not even living with me anymore, so it's just my husband and myself. But yeah, he even. He's like, can we turn the heat up? I'm like, no, absolutely not. Yeah, you just get like, learn to live with it. Learn to live learn to live.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and isn't it a? Isn't that just a delight to be going through this hormonal change at the same time that our kids are going through puberty? That's where I'm at right now. Yes it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, I know, it's really, it's just a. The whole menopause experience is just so strange that we're like why right now? Well, your daughter's probably going through puberty right now, or you know, yeah, even you know right now, with, like I on my end and maybe you have this. Like you know, I have I'm dealing with aging parents.
Speaker 1:You know and yeah, and that's a whole other super stressful thing that no one tells you about. It's kind of like menopause no one really tells you what's coming down the line and and that you have to. So you're contending with like all of these, like things, like all at the same time and it's a it's a.
Speaker 2:It's a lot to handle at once my mother-in-law has dementia and she and my husband is an only child, and it has been the last few years since her diagnosis have been really tough, really tough. I've I've completely we've changed our lives to accommodate for moving her here. I mean, she doesn't live with us in this house, but we moved her. She was in Iowa all by herself and we had to get her here so we could get her into a place where she would be safe.
Speaker 2:But there is, there is a moment where you feel like you have so many balls in the air, being part of this sandwich generation, of having kids who are you know, my daughter is going into seventh grade, my mother in law is losing her mind, and here we are losing our minds. And so I once heard something that I really love, that I'd love to share with you. Somebody said once at any point in life, especially in midlife, we have a lot of balls in the air, and every day we get to wake up and decide which balls are made of plastic and which balls are made of glass, and we are inevitably going to drop a ball or two, and that's okay, we'll just choose that those are the plastic ones that are going to drop a ball or two, and that's okay. We'll just choose that those are the plastic ones that are going to fall from our rotation that day, and then we can pick them up and turn them to glass the next day. But I think about that a lot right now.
Speaker 1:I love that Exactly. We have to give ourselves a break. Some things are just going to fall by the wayside. We cannot manage everything and as women, I think we shoulder. We were used to shouldering so much.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, yes, the silent labor.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And then you know, I think menopause is this opportunity, if you want to see it as an opportunity to just start focusing on you, your priorities for yourself and your health and fitness and, you know, make making yourself fit somewhere in that slot of who's going to get care.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right, there's a trend on the Internet right now. This amazing creator started the we Do Not Care Club. Have you seen this? Oh no, I have not. So she's, she gets on and she said here's my perimenopausal woman, we do not care. Here's what we do not care about today. And I find the entire trend to be just delightful and it's so wonderful. And now all these women are picking and be like we don't care about this, we don't care about that. But it's actually such a gift. It's such a gift to be able to let things go in this phase of life. It's very freeing. Yes, it's very freeing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is, and it takes practice right when we're used to just being, you know, the caregiver for everybody, you know like just giving out and not focusing on ourselves. It takes practice, but you got to do it.
Speaker 2:You got to do it, and also you have to do the work to really think about what you care about and what you don't, because we get so used to caring about things that we don't even know if we care about them anymore. We're just used to dealing with them or doing them or having these obligations, but then all of a sudden something happens and you're like you know, I don't really care about that anymore. Right, and what would my life look like if I let that go? And chances are it's. My life would be a little freer.
Speaker 2:I would have a little space to find something new to do to care about. Or to put more of my care equity into something Right.
Speaker 1:No, I love that. What would my life look like if I let that go? And that's something I yeah I have definitely been contending with a lot lately. So it's yeah, you're in good company. Yeah, it's an amazing opportunity. Yep, it's an amazing opportunity and once we get through this, it's what so many women say the best era of their lives. But my beginning 50s into, I felt a little resentful about having to take this on now.
Speaker 2:Menopause I get it and all the physical changes I was feeling and the emotional changes and it felt like a big transition for me, but I can see the you know where some women have talked about, like just feeling like you know, the wisdom that they've cultivated. I'm starting to see that now that I'm on, like this other tail end of my perimenopause, you know, going into postmenopause experience, I think our decision to move this year has kind of forced those thoughts to happen now for me, because we've been in the New York City area for 26 years and I am going home to my hometown of Pittsburgh, pa, which I said I would never do, and after losing my friend last year and just having a real come to Jesus of like, why am I here? What do? Who do I want to be with when things go down? Like, who do I want to be near to help them out of this life? It's my family.
Speaker 2:And so in getting rid of things, decluttering, I have been such a hustler since I moved to New York in 1999. I have hustled my ass so hard in the industry, in theater, in fitness, now in this menopause, which I did not expect to be a saturated market two years ago when I did all this work, and now it's it's. You know it's hard, it's hard to be heard. It's hard for people to trust you because there's so much noise. Yes, you know I'm just going to go.
Speaker 2:I just want a simple life. I don't need to be the center of attention anymore. That's part of my I do not care club. I do not care if I'm on camera anymore, I do not care if people don't know my name, I don't care anymore. I don't care, I want to be. You know, it's forced me to have a midlife reckoning and I'm grateful for it, because I feel, once you start letting stuff go, you feel the pull toward the next thing, and so it's very exciting. I'm in a very optimistic phase right now about this transition. But you know, talk to me in October when it settles in and I'm like, oh my God, what did I just do in Pittsburgh?
Speaker 1:What am I going to do with the rest of my life?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, go to mom's for dinner every Sunday, which is amazing, but at the same time'm like, oh my god, where are my friends? You know?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, I, I understand, but it sounds like you're. Maybe the death of your friend really prompted something yeah in you to just reevaluate what's important and who who you're with yeah important and cultivate lifelong relationships or search for the things that are lifelong joys, because that's what it's all about.
Speaker 1:There's nothing else besides that yeah Well, so you at 49 are learning that. I think it's taken me a little bit more, I've had to be dragged a little bit along on that and I've, and like I've, resisted, but I'm, I'm, I'm learning, I'm getting more comfortable in the place that you're at right now, but this timeline is your timeline.
Speaker 2:It's the way that you are supposed to experience it and in that way it's beautiful and uniquely yours. You know, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so lots of transitions happen during this menopause transition. But let's, I'm just let me talk about nutrition for a little bit. Let's backtrack a little bit, and just because I there's so many nutrition, those myths you know that are out there, what are your clients or what you know, your people, or even yourself, like when you started going into perimenopause, were you feeling like I have to get on a certain diet, Like I have to start eating differently or change things around? What's the noise that you're hearing? Also just from, like clients, Because I can share mine as well.
Speaker 2:Well, there is the panic about the menopausal weight gain. That's what I deal with a lot and why a lot of clients that's usually the straw that breaks the camel's back for them to seek help is that they're gaining weight, and which I have a lot to say about. But you know, however, they find me, sell them what they want, give them what they need, right, right. What people don't understand is that menopausal weight gain is hormonal and it's not just about what you put in your mouth and it's not just about exercise, but it's about regulating your hormones as a whole. So the menopausal weight gain is the is a real bone of contention for a lot of my clients, and so I do a lot of talking about visceral fat versus subcutaneous fat.
Speaker 2:I do a lot of talking about inflammation and fiber fiber as the best thing I honestly think. You know. People talk so much about protein, and I would love to hear what you have to say about this, but there's a lot of talk about protein and there's not as much talk about fiber. But I feel like fiber might be something that we need to focus on even more because of all the benefits that eating fiber has for us, for our gut, for our digestion, for our motility, just keeping us full and satisfied.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean fiber, yeah. So I totally agree with you on all of that. I think weight gain is the number one reason why women come to see me too is that they've suddenly gained weight.
Speaker 1:They can't figure it out and when they've been on and off diets for decades. Sometimes I have some women. They don't know any other way to eat except for being on a diet and off a diet and suddenly that's not working and they feel very out of control with that and they get desperate. I think to try to go on other different diets, like intermittent fasting and. But I think just back to like the protein versus. You know, like protein is something that's so hot right now.
Speaker 2:I mean it's like like, if I see one more recipe with cottage cheese in it, I'm gonna like throw myself against the wall. I know.
Speaker 1:I'm like. So, all of a sudden, cottage cheese is like the hottest thing. Like no one's ever heard of cottage cheese before, Like it's a new food. I'm like cottage cheese has been around for a long time. You didn't like it back then and fine, like it now. That's okay, but it's not. You don't have to eat.
Speaker 2:Cottage cheese was actually my go-to pregnancy craving. I craved cottage cheese with sliced tomatoes and pepper, like a lot of pepper. That was my pregnancy craving. Oh, interesting, I still like it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know it's so funny what we crave when we're pregnant. I know I had such oddball things when I was pregnant. Cottage cheese is great, it's great, but the over-focus on I mean listen, there's always a trend of the moment focus on protein. I mean, listen, there's always a trend of the moment. Every time you think that like what other, like diets, what other trendy things can come up right now it's protein. And yeah, just like in fitness.
Speaker 2:It's strength training, right, exactly. Everybody wants the answer. That's what it is. They just want to tell me what to do Right, yes, tell me what to do to fix this and just tell me what to eat and tell me what, how to exercise and just tell me what to do, right, yes, tell me what to do to fix this.
Speaker 1:And just tell me what to eat and tell me what. How to exercise and just tell me what to do, tell me what supplements to take.
Speaker 2:Right that, I did that. I did that in I think it was 2020, before I got certified. I hired a like a wellness coach and I was like, tell me what I need to take, and she gave me all these supplements and I took them and they didn't really make that much of a difference. Yeah, you probably paid a ton of money.
Speaker 1:Oh my God Right, You're paying a ton of money. Suddenly you're like why am I taking this stuff? Like what exactly is?
Speaker 2:supposed to be doing for me. She was like you should probably stop drinking. I was like hell, no.
Speaker 1:Right, right, but give me all the supplements.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so stupid that was me. I mean I'm calling myself stupid, I'm not calling her stupid because she was right, but also she gave me what I asked for, which was just tell me what to do, just give me supplements, exactly you know yeah.
Speaker 1:Not blaming her. She's amazing, but yeah, yeah, Well, so anyway, yeah. So people are getting crazy for protein right now and I think that as long as you're just focusing on a good protein source at breakfast, lunch and dinner and your snacks, you're fine, right For most women. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would definitely agree with that, and I also think it's very true that we don't have, because of diet culture and how we grew up, we don't really have a good grip on what a balanced diet looks like, and so, yeah, we're probably not getting enough protein or fiber in our regular diet because we eat a highly processed diet and we live lives of convenience, and so we have to make adjustments for that, yes, yes, and that takes education right.
Speaker 1:Just even me saying, like just get a good protein source at every breakfast, lunch and dinner, I understand that people might not even know what that means. What does that mean, a good protein source? So education is definitely is key in this case, but I think with this over-focus on protein, we're then sacrificing some other nutrients, like fiber, which I think is much more important than the over-focus on getting so much protein, and that's one nutrient that is very, very neglected in almost everyone's diet, and now we have to really focus on that.
Speaker 1:And that comes from plants, right, fruits and vegetables and whole grains and the emphasis yeah needs to really be more on that. We could, yeah, so that's I would love to see that Definitely.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What other trends do you feel like you're seeing in, you know, just in the menopausal? I know there's been a lot of talk about creatine yeah, there's been a lot of talk about creatine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's been a lot of talk about creatine. Yeah, I don't really know enough about it to say yes or no. I feel like, unless you're like a bodybuilder, I don't think that you need creatine. I don't think that you need to waste your money on creatine Again. It's not going to be that thing that's going to make you all of a sudden be free of your perimenopause symptoms or your menopause symptoms. Creatine is not it. Estrogen, estradiol is it. If you want your symptoms to go away, estradiol.
Speaker 2:And if you have a uterus progesterone. That's what's going to do it. Stop messing around with creatine and all this BS. Let's go get hormone therapy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, creatine is fine. I'm no fan of really any supplements unless you need to fill in the gaps somewhere. But creatine to me feels, from what I know and from what I've read about it, and it just feels like another moneymaker. You know it's that. I don't know if it's going to, unless you are a bodybuilder like you're really this is your focus that it's going to really move the needle.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like are you really this is your focus, that it's going to really move the needle, yeah, and it'll help with recovery. If you're you know, if you're running marathons or if you're doing heavy, heavy lifting or training people all the time, or if you are like a professional fitness instructor and you're constantly moving and lifting and hustling, then, yeah, creatine would probably be great for you. But again, you know, like I said at the beginning, everybody's experience and needs are different.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Yeah, so we don't just all of a sudden have to start adding in creatine. Same goes with, I think, probiotics, turmeric, I would say collagen powder. I think those three have gotten, in my world and in the world of nutrition, a lot of buzz, huge amount of buzz, and there's just not a lot of evidence for any of these supplements. And then don't get me started on, just like the supplements for, like you know, whatever they're called, like menopause supplements to help ease your hot flashes and you know, with herbs and vitamins in them, those are a no. I mean, those are, those are a flat out no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, save your money.
Speaker 1:You save your money.
Speaker 2:Yes, the one thing that I would love to ask you about I've been hearing a lot about women taking GLP ones for hot flashes. What are your opinions on GLP-1s for, specifically menopause symptoms?
Speaker 1:I have seen no evidence of using GLP-1s for menopause symptoms. That's not what they're prescribed for. They're prescribed for weight loss and to decrease your hunger cues, and taking them for menopause symptoms is absolutely crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think it's really unpleasant side effects.
Speaker 1:They can. They can have a lot of unpleasant side effects. Listen, there's a time and place, I think, for GLP ones, if people are really struggling with with their weight and they have, they have tried other things and but there's a and for diabetes, you know that's definitely definitely proven that it's a lifesaver and it's also a hormone replacement tool. That's right, it is a hormone replacement.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But as far as specifically for menopause symptoms, nothing can replace taking estrogen, right, right. Yeah, what have you heard about it?
Speaker 2:Not much, just that people are starting to prescribe it for menopausal weight gain. And the hot flashes. It's just convenient. Again, it's like give me the answer, with me not having to do any work.
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean. I know more and more women who are taking GLP-1s when they do not have a significant amount of weight to lose.
Speaker 1:So, and I that that doesn't make sense to me, because the likelihood of you being on a GLP-1 forever is pretty slim and once you go off the GLP-1, your all your hunger, all hunger, all the benefits, all the weight loss is very likely to come back. So you've really learned nothing, I mean, I think it would be a better use of women's time to learn the habits and the mindfulness and mindset around eating better and eating well, than just injecting themselves with a drug to lose weight to then gain a bit.
Speaker 1:Or or, if you are on a glp-1, take the time, take it as an opportunity to learn some new habits while you're on it because do a little reset because you it's a good idea we will be going off of, I mean, you know, unless you're on it, for you know, the rest of your life, but that would be a long time to be on that medication. I think, although we don't know a lot of, we don't know a lot about the like really long-term effects of it, true, true, yeah, I think again, it's different for everyone.
Speaker 2:There's no right or wrong answer for the combination that you need, but with any of these. So if you choose hormone therapy, if you choose GLP-1s, it's a yes and it's that, and it's managing your fitness, your nutrition, your sleep, your stress management. Absolutely, you've got to think about cortisol, because cortisol is going to mess with you if you don't regulate it, and you have to regulate it through awareness, nervous system down regulation, a good, consistent sleep schedule and a diet that is not going to inflame your entire body.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, I know we, I mean mean, I'm going to have you back on because I feel like we have got so much more to talk about.
Speaker 1:We didn't even like cover half of it, and I'm looking at the time and so I want to have you back on to just finish our conversation about just anti-inflammatory diets, right, I mean we've a lot that we didn't totally cover, so, but I want to just ask you one just last question. I think you sort of just answered it. But what is well nourished overall, just mean to you? I think you just answered it. I mean, we're talking about sleep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think nourishment is such a wonderful word, and to be well nourished, you think about what feeds you right, you think about what makes you feel satisfied, and so when I think about being a well nourished person, I think about being taken care of, I think about caring for myself, I think about the quality of my life as a whole. It's a pretty holistic answer. For me is to be well nourished is to be well fed, well slept, well exercised and inspired and creative and have a full life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I think it means. Yeah, I agree with you. I think it feels well, nourished, feels very safe. To me, you know like you're getting taken care of, and I think that's that's what we need right now A lot of self-care and asking for help, like If you need somebody to nourish, you ask for it.
Speaker 2:Ask your doctor for that hormone therapy, ask your partner to give you a massage when your back hurts Just ask. Ask for space. Lord knows, we need it.
Speaker 1:Yes, and learning to speak up right and ask for what you want and what you need. Yeah, well, erica, this has been a fantastic conversation, so much fun. And how do women get in touch with you? I know you're in the middle of a big move right now, but yeah.
Speaker 2:So they can find me at erikashannoncom it's Erica with a K. You can also find me on all social media at Erica Shannon movement and on my website. I have everything from downloads on menopause and weight gain and brain fog. I also have a workout platform with over 100 workouts on it that you can log into and I do everything from recovery, cardio, sculpt, kickboxing and strength training, including some of that peripheral heart action that I talked about and I also have a community, a menopause community, where it's a members only situation, where people log on and we do challenges for our different phases of self-care. We do challenges, we share recipes and we have a book club, and so I have a special going on right now where you can get one month for free and I'll actually I'll drop you a coupon code so that your people can get a little extra.
Speaker 1:Okay, great. Well, I will put all those links in the show notes so people can check that out. And thank you so much. You're so welcome. Let's do this again.
Speaker 2:Definitely Thanks, Heather.