Uncovering Buried Trauma: Compassion and Curiosity with Meredith Alger

In this episode, host Katie Wrigley interviews licensed clinical social worker Meredith Alger about trauma and the mind-body connection. Meredith shares her personal journey of healing from trauma and discusses the importance of finding a trauma-informed therapist. They also explore the concept of dissociation and the fear of uncovering buried trauma. The conversation highlights the power of tools like EFT tapping and breathwork in regulating the nervous system and creating a sense of safety. 

They emphasize the importance of compassion, curiosity, and working with a trusted professional to navigate the healing process. In this conversation, Katie and Meredith discuss the importance of regulation and co-regulation in managing stress and trauma. They explore the Polyvagal Theory and how it can be used to understand and regulate the nervous system. They also discuss the impact of energy and mindset on stress and offer practical tips for managing stress and improving well-being. The conversation ends with a discussion on suicide prevention and the importance of reaching out for help.

Takeaways

• Finding a trauma-informed therapist or coach is crucial for healing from trauma.
• Compassion and curiosity are essential when exploring buried trauma.
• The Polyvagal Theory provides a framework for understanding and regulating the nervous system.
• Energy and mindset play a significant role in managing stress and improving well-being.
• It is important to reach out for help and support when experiencing suicidal thoughts or struggling with mental health.
• Practicing self-care and engaging in activities that promote regulation can help improve overall well-being.

Where to find Meredith

Liminal Horizons, PLLC || (847) 739-7700 || 7599 (f)
Meredith@liminalhorizons.com  || Liminalhorizons.com                                                  Sensing Fields, LLC || (224) 262-2200
Meredith@sensingfields.com || Sensingfields.com 

Resources

• Website
• Free Mini Cogno Mondays
• Learn more about Cognomovement
• Try Cognomovement for yourself!
• Book a call with Katie

Credit: Tom Giovingo, Intro & Outro, Random Voice Guy, Professional ‘Cat‘ Herder

Mixed & Managed: JohnRavenscraft.com

Disclaimer: Katie is not a medical professional and she is not qualified to diagnose any conditions. The advice and information she gives is based on her own experience and research. It does not take the place of medical advice. Always consult a medical professional first before you try anything new.

Transcript

Katie Wrigley (00:01.056)
Welcome back to the Catapult Effect podcast. I am your host, Katie Wrigley. And I have another amazing guest with me here this week, Meredith Alger. She is a licensed clinical social worker. She has a ton of experience and expertise around helping with trauma. And I am just gonna pause and allow her to expand. And welcome to the Catapult Effect podcast, Meredith. I'm so happy to have you here with me today.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (00:24.83)
Thank you, Katie. I am delighted to be here. Yes, I am a licensed clinical social worker with an extensive history of nervous system dysregulation, trauma, and then healing from that. And it's been quite a journey. throughout it, I pursued different things. So starting my career as a school social worker wanting to help with

was trauma -informed and I wanted to help with adolescence in after -school program to then getting my degree, my master's in social work and then working with, I worked in a courthouse for a while with survivors of domestic violence and did some therapy with them and their children. And then I burnt out. So I went on this

long quest to figure out who I was, why I felt different, why I felt so horrible. Other people were good at life, like what was wrong with me? And so that's why I pursued psychology. I have a mother who is a social worker and a husband who is a social worker. yeah, we, but in many ways, I don't think they are not where I am. So I've kind of veered very, very far off.

Katie Wrigley (01:32.652)
Bye.

Katie Wrigley (01:42.176)
out.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (01:53.33)
my husband is still in schools as my mom is and I'm a licensed school social worker. And then not working in a school have become, you know, all the trauma informed that I could in terms of therapeutically. So EMDR certified, IFS level one and ongoing consultation. And then Holly Vagle informed through the Holly Vagle Institute. And I think that has

really brought everything together for me and made me realize we can change states. We can change our own states. And that's just amazing.

Katie Wrigley (02:30.987)
Yes.

It is, it is and it can be really hard to believe that especially if you're still in the throes of trauma. If you're a first responder, I know you work with some first responders as well in the line of work that you do and thank you so much for that. But it gets really hard to have that buy -in and you know and before we hit the record button, Meredith and I were sitting here chatting and talking about the importance of the mind -body connection and that gets broken when you're in a trauma state. So I would love if you could just expand on that Meredith and what you've seen.

And from your own experience and also with clients and patients that you're working with as well, like just speaking to the importance of the mind -body connection. And what can someone do if they are in the throes and they're hearing the words disassociated, which we'll explain here in a moment as well, where is a place where they can start?

Meredith Alger, LCSW (03:22.718)
So I think to start looking into a therapist, finding someone or coach, someone who is informed, very trauma informed is really important. think I went to many therapists. So I was born two months early, which meant my nervous system was not ready. And then I was separated. I was at a different hospital from my mom. And at that time, I think things were...

Katie Wrigley (03:34.348)
Absolutely.

Katie Wrigley (03:43.03)
Mm -hmm.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (03:52.22)
not as clear and so the importance of connection for co -regulation was not there. And I just, I and my family has a few members who can get quite explosive. I love them all so much. I had a wonderful childhood and right, so I grew up, don't remember much.

Katie Wrigley (03:54.486)
Right.

Katie Wrigley (04:01.302)
Mm

Katie Wrigley (04:14.859)
Right.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (04:20.082)
because I did spend my childhood disassociated. I really don't remember much. And it was just, I was a quiet kid, so it was not caught at all until after I graduated high school and went to college. And then that dissociation turned into an addiction. It became so clear to me that I was avoiding life.

Katie Wrigley (04:23.564)
Mm -hmm.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (04:48.298)
I was just avoiding life. I did not want to feel my body. I did not want to come back. So I do understand, like, it's scary. It's just so scary when you are thinking, wait, I have to feel my body? Like, I've been trying to escape that.

Katie Wrigley (05:07.436)
I want to pause here for a moment. So there's a couple of things. So first of all, I want to give you kudos that you realized in your early 20s, late teens that you were avoiding life. I didn't recognize that shit for myself until I was 43 and disabled in 2018. major kudos that you figured it out. I was still running like crazy for myself until my body's like, figure it out.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (05:31.466)
I knew I was troubled. I did nothing about it until 36. So that was, I was in an addiction for many, many years. became, after it was alcohol, it became running, you know, 13 miles a day. And then I had an injury, hip injury, and then I relaxed. And then now I've been sober for almost nine years. And you know, feeling my body and

Katie Wrigley (05:44.758)
Bye!

Katie Wrigley (05:57.036)
Congratulations.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (06:01.128)
learning these tools to integrate, it not only allows people to be hopeful because there is a way in through the nervous system to connect our mind and our body, but also to do it as slowly as needed and to teach the tools as we go so that as I'm in my body, noticing things isn't so scary.

Katie Wrigley (06:12.786)
in the.

Katie Wrigley (06:21.718)
Mm

Meredith Alger, LCSW (06:28.774)
One huge reason I suggest working with somebody. And there's so many things we can do to change our own state. I think EFT tapping is something I go to very often because I can, in just a couple rounds of the tapping and going through my own statement, set up statements and everything, it changes my entire state of being. Reading through a straw.

and humming as I do it. All these things that I know engage the parasympathetic system, the ventral system, actually, the ventral vagal, you know, is, so as I'm learning this, it just is so exciting to bring these actual tools, which I know, you know, Cognitive Movement has tons of as well, of these integrative tools.

Katie Wrigley (07:22.72)
Yes.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (07:26.678)
I personally use the parts work for myself, the automatic parts work when something comes up, you know, okay, I'm blending a little bit from whatever part is very active. And I think I'm probably getting ahead of myself here. But right now it is, you know, being able to both look at our, observe our thoughts.

Katie Wrigley (07:30.187)
Okay.

Katie Wrigley (07:33.876)
So powerful.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (07:55.954)
mindfulness, notice our experience and pay attention somatically and listen and hear the message. And if I'm in like, if I am triggered, I know I have the tools that will bring my state back into a ventral, maybe sympathetic, but a ventral and sympathetic state. Kind of that shift from anger to excitement is so, you know,

Katie Wrigley (07:56.278)
Mm

Katie Wrigley (08:12.886)
Mm

Katie Wrigley (08:23.414)
Mm -hmm. Yes.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (08:26.563)
It's so similar.

Katie Wrigley (08:28.382)
Yeah, and just to kind of just add a little bit around just in case people aren't sure like parasympathetic -sympathetic. So the sympathetic nervous system is what's going to get you in fight or flight. And so what's interesting is when we inhale, it's sympathetic nervous system. Exhale.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (08:34.205)
Yes.

Katie Wrigley (08:43.356)
is parasympathetic, which is rest and digest. So you will hear with breath work, and I'm sure we're probably gonna touch on this a little bit, but I really wanna go into the polyvagal work that you do in more detail. But you wanna have that exhale a little bit longer, and you wanna make it go through the belly. Because if you're doing chest breathing, you're staying in the sympathetic, and you're telling your body you have a reason to do shallow breathing. Whereas if you can get your diaphragm going and get that exhale even just one second longer than the inhale, you're gonna start to get that nervous system

them to go, I'm okay, I'm okay, and start to calm down.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (09:18.662)
Exactly. Right. And I think, you know, just like breathwork is the perfect example of a tool that we all have. And it's cool because these things have been, you know, they are controlled by our autonomic nervous system and we can control them. And so I think that's what I'm learning. That's really cool to be able to to breathe a longer exhale and know that if I just do that for a few minutes.

Katie Wrigley (09:37.248)
Yes.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (09:47.9)
my state will change, I will feel differently. And tools just very similar to that. then, know, sympathetic is very ventral. I mean, parasympathetic, excuse me, that rest and digest and kind of relaxation with ventral energy is really ideal. right,

And then there's also this social engagement system that Polly Bagel brings in for connection and for safety and how to build that too. So, you know, back to my birth, that was completely, you know, I came out of it dysregulated and then I had wonderful parents, and they, their energy.

Katie Wrigley (10:23.722)
Yes.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (10:41.544)
was too much for me sometimes. So that co -regulation piece seems to have been missed, which really set me up to be vulnerable.

Katie Wrigley (10:53.77)
You know, and that was something I wanted to touch on, but it didn't make sense to go back to it. But so much of the time when I'm working with my clients, I'm guessing you probably see the same, it goes back to a birth trauma and a lot of people aren't even aware of it. In part because people who are in their 40s and 50s, when we were born, they weren't talking about birth trauma.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (11:13.897)
No.

Katie Wrigley (11:14.006)
like at all, like we're just starting to talk about now, that's why you're seeing such a huge shift to home births and midwives is because hospitals have a lot of negative energy because there's people in crisis who are dying there and you're birthing these babies into this center of crisis, they're feeling that energy. Like on some level, depending on their sensitivity and the mom is feeling it too and she's already really focused on what's about to come out of her body. But these birth traumas are big, that was part of

Meredith Alger, LCSW (11:25.002)
Thanks.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (11:29.854)
Mm -hmm.

Katie Wrigley (11:41.778)
Mine as well is like I tried to come out three times before I actually came out and then I came out face up instead of face down so they kept flipping me over and I got pissed and sat on my umbilical cord and was almost stillborn. And then had wonderful parents and something happened outside the family. So my wonderful parents are how I didn't wind up on the streets really.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (11:57.256)
Right.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (12:03.924)
That's me.

Katie Wrigley (12:04.636)
is once I looked at my ACEs score, my resilience score, I like, I was on my way to my parents. I'm like, I just want to let you know, just thank you. Like, I know I've done some really messed up stuff in my self -destructive days, but you guys are the reason it wasn't any worse than it was. Like, yeah.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (12:20.892)
And that's what I think so many people get stuck in a blame state, latest situation. And that's so uncomfortable for me, my clients. And so, right, so my parents had their, particularly one side was more vocal and, you know, strict and sometimes it would be explosive. But, and.

Katie Wrigley (12:27.04)
Yes.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (12:47.924)
Their love was so great. So I did find safety there. And really, ultimately though, I think I feel the safety now that I just could not them. Yeah.

Katie Wrigley (13:03.352)
Yeah. Yeah. And that's beautiful. And then I do want to just reinforce the point you made. I blamed my parents for 20 years. Until I understood what happened, everything was their fault. And then I went through all the regret of like, my God. Did I really? I ran for 20 years and they never did anything wrong? Like, come on, Kate. So yeah, that was all part of my story as well. And sometimes it is the parents. So we aren't saying this to say, you know,

Meredith Alger, LCSW (13:12.084)
Thank

Meredith Alger, LCSW (13:30.291)
it is.

Katie Wrigley (13:32.384)
Don't blame your parents for everything. They could have a piece in it. But what I believe you're saying, Meredith, is when we're focusing on blame, we aren't looking, we're actually, hey, we're giving our power to that person because we're putting it all on them. And we aren't looking at, yeah, you were an innocent child. You couldn't have done anything to change it. But now you're an adult. What can you do with this experience so that you aren't allowing it to hold you back and you aren't letting it define you?

think that maybe I'm summarizing a little too much for you, but that was what I was hearing.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (14:02.472)
No. Yes, that is exactly right. so I think the progression from the learning EMDR, which was hard for me, even though I had done some EMDR as a client, because we did work. And that was earlier, I think. But then learning parts work, for example, became a huge piece because

Katie Wrigley (14:14.102)
Mm

Meredith Alger, LCSW (14:31.838)
I am looking at myself then. Myself, I can have compassion and curiosity and like really go in and be honest. And I have these parts that are very protective. And so they have, I mean, as addiction did, you know, they have really been, they did not do, you know, they,

Katie Wrigley (14:33.59)
Mm

Katie Wrigley (14:53.825)
me.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (15:00.254)
got confused and just kept protecting and were very strong. And they think they're helping. You know, I don't know they think they're helping, but these parts are doing their adaptive survival work from when we were little and growing up. And that dissociation and the addiction avoidance, I think, is one just, it was the way that, right, I could not, until I could, get into my body.

Katie Wrigley (15:06.262)
Mm

Katie Wrigley (15:13.131)
Yes.

Katie Wrigley (15:28.97)
Yeah, and I would love to hear what you think about this. in various different conversations I've had, it's clear when someone's ready and not. And one of the things that I hear repeatedly is like, I'm afraid of what's under there. I'm afraid of what I'm gonna find. So what would you say to the person who's listening to this, Meredith, who's in that like, I know I need help, but I am so scared. Like, what if I discover something I'm not gonna be able to handle? Could you address that?

Meredith Alger, LCSW (15:56.038)
Absolutely. think first, is really going in with compassion is extremely important. compassion. And then as we are, as I work with clients, I think the biggest key piece is until, you know, we think there's a huge scary monster underneath all of it. For example, many people think, was I sexually abused as a baby or a child?

Katie Wrigley (16:03.872)
Yes.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (16:25.766)
That crossed my mind in my journey because I didn't understand that the nervous system could really create these huge protectors when there's other traumas. And so a lot of people are afraid they're going to find something like that. And they may, but it's unlikely if...

Katie Wrigley (16:25.802)
and

Katie Wrigley (16:41.523)
Yeah.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (16:52.22)
If it's not known already, I have not experienced people figuring out that. Usually, it is going in because we are going in with somebody, hopefully we trust, who can keep us present while they are getting to know kind of what's underneath through sensations, through just the questions from me or my client.

Katie Wrigley (17:10.378)
Mm -hmm.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (17:21.48)
And I think the idea is very, very, very often it's not a big scary monster. Almost never is it a big scary monster that we need to run from still. And me, with compassion and curiosity can really, I think, figure that out and learn the pieces that may have, that are still protecting us as if we were free. And the pieces that

Katie Wrigley (17:33.846)
Yep, agree.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (17:50.792)
we may not even know, like I lost creativity. And now I sing karaoke with my little microphone every single morning to get out of bed. But at some point I was told I'm never gonna be a famous singer. I mean, which is so one might think silly, but I really thought I was. I turned off creativity, you know? And so finding that part and...

Katie Wrigley (18:12.075)
Mm

Yep.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (18:18.142)
getting to know it and bringing it back into my life has been a huge part of healing.

Katie Wrigley (18:22.398)
Absolutely. And you you hit on a few things there again that I want to touch on. So one was like, you're focusing on the sensation. It's the meaning that we assign to it that starts to make it big and scary. If you're just focusing on the physical sensation, you make something that feels like it could be this and you shrink it down.

You're just focused on the sensation and what it feels like. Like, I don't like how this feels. Okay, don't like it as much as you don't like it. Just be in it. Because that's how you get it out of the body is with that focus there. You know, and the nervous system, the nervous system in the subconscious mind, especially a subconscious mind, it's designed to protect you. To keep you safe and alive. You know, no big deal, right? It's just keeping you safe and alive.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (18:48.039)
What?

Meredith Alger, LCSW (19:05.97)
Yeah, and a lot.

Katie Wrigley (19:06.956)
by any means necessary. It's not using rational thought. It's not using reason. It's not using logic. It's, this kept me alive. This is what I'm gonna do. And boom, now you have a pattern that works against you, but it keeps you alive. And that's what the brain will keep doing. And I love that you said that, because the thing that happened to me as a kid, I ran from that for 40 years. And I...

Meredith Alger, LCSW (19:19.486)
Yeah, exactly.

Katie Wrigley (19:33.192)
Always had a suspicion so technically it's a repressed memory it's something I didn't know which puts me in a place to really speak to like did like what I was hearing no. Did I want to accept it now but I'm the queen of denial that's where I go over that's where I used to go I'm no longer doing that I'm I'm die right into it now I'm like there could be something here let's look because if I hear and deny it's going to get worse but.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (19:41.087)
that.

ranked.

Katie Wrigley (19:58.058)
I denied and so it took another nine months after I finally started to understand what was going on until I really dug in and started to do the work to heal the trauma because that was my pattern. Denial was keeping me safe. It wasn't logical, it wasn't reasonable and we all know that our problems are still gonna be there when we pull our head out of the sand but the subconscious doesn't care.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (20:19.234)
But right, no, it doesn't at all. And that's why when we're triggered, we might not even know why. But it's within that, you know, the unconscious, the subconscious unconscious, that those memories that can be that are repressed are repressed. That, know, I think sometimes when they show up as feelings or sensations, it's

It is hard to determine, like it's hard to at first kind of navigate this, right? Because, know, okay, well, what does this sensation mean? wait, is that self or is that a part? You know, and all of these things get in the way. But really, it is just looking at what is there and not being scared and doing it with somebody.

Katie Wrigley (21:11.18)
Mm

Meredith Alger, LCSW (21:13.608)
And if it's really, really hard, maybe you go slowly. I think sometimes slow is what people's system needs. And other times, know, huge jumps and leaps, but it's so tight training some of that safety, especially for people who have not been safe and really struggle, which I did, to feel safe. Yeah.

Katie Wrigley (21:36.99)
Yeah, yeah. And it's no small thing that we're talking about. Like when your nervous system, your body are not feeling safe, it is going to continue to disrupt your life until you can find what it needs to feel comfortable. You won't be able to have that mind -body connection because part of you is always going to be trying to escape.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (21:58.214)
Exactly, exactly. And coming back into the body, I mean, that wasn't, and I started with a somatic therapist, but I was in treatment and I was not ready for somatic therapy. I did not. I've shut down. I was like, I don't remember. don't know. I don't remember. You know, as also, you know, we have these, these coping patterns that are adaptive.

Katie Wrigley (22:06.709)
Okay.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (22:26.418)
and they often get us into situations, they become the danger. It's like, at what point, we need to look at it because otherwise you're right, we're not stopping the addiction, or it is going to be replaced. And so, this deep work is...

extremely serious. And I think, you know, many people are reactive today because many people weren't talking about it, like you said, 40 years ago. And so that gives me a lot of hope, though I think the education that we can change states that we have the power to do that. We have the tools to do it. There are a lot of trained people out there to help. You know, I think that is very

very hopeful for what is right now a very dysregulated world.

Katie Wrigley (23:29.736)
It is very dysregulated right now and it's probably going to continue to increase over the next few months as we get close to the election and each side gets more more riled up and then we've got all that stuff out there to continue to polarize us and pull us apart instead of bring us together. It's going to continue to feed into that dysregulation unless you make a conscious choice to stop playing that crappy game.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (23:35.882)
Yeah.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (23:54.866)
Yes, that's one thing that the Polyvagal, everything that I have done Polyvagal informed has been helpful because, I mean, really, we know that, you know, we know that we need co -regulation, we need social support, and the social engagement system is part of what has come up in Polyvagal theory because we use our cues of

Katie Wrigley (24:15.457)
Yes.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (24:24.852)
you know, these tiny little cranial nerves that move our face or our eyes or, you know, allow us to connect and feel safe with one another. When we never feel safe, we're not connecting, right? We're not seeing those cues. So the work of being able to trust others too, in a safe way, assuming it's safe, is important. That connection

Katie Wrigley (24:31.328)
Mm -hmm.

Katie Wrigley (24:41.035)
Right?

Meredith Alger, LCSW (24:55.188)
Peace is so vital to regulation. Like we need co -regulation.

Katie Wrigley (25:01.558)
Yes, absolutely. so when you're, I'm not an expert in polyvagal, which is why you're on the podcast. I'd be able to speak to it if I was. But we do utilize the vagus nerve. And so it's a piece of what I understand is the overall polyvagal system. But there's more than just activating the vagus nerve. But the vagus nerve, if I'm correct, Meredith, is part of that because when you activate the vagus nerve, that's what...

triggers your parasympathetic rest and digest nervous system,

Meredith Alger, LCSW (25:34.196)
So activated is, so the vagus nerve goes to, it's the 10th cranial nerve. So it is getting all of the facial cues and it's also helping control our expressions to connect or not. So if I'm showing defense, I'm likely to, the someone across from me is also gonna be defensive, because we reflect that way.

Katie Wrigley (25:51.777)
Mm

Meredith Alger, LCSW (26:03.694)
polyvagal theory. So the polyvagal nervous system is, is very similar to just sympathetic parasympathetic, but it brings it together as a whole system. Because if we look at a picture of it, for example, we see it's going to our face and then we see it's in the brainstem and then we see it's on both sides of the neck and then we see it's in, wrapped in our vocal cords and then it's going down.

you know, our esophagus or I think, don't quote me here, look it up, but it's going down and then it is entering your heart, all of this is connected and then it goes to your digestive system, which is key in why there are so many, yeah, right.

Katie Wrigley (26:40.598)
Right.

Katie Wrigley (26:58.444)
Everything. Let's make it easy. Your gut microbiome rules so much of what's happening in your body. We can just leave that there. Please continue.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (27:08.202)
And it's 80 % bottom up. So 80 % of the cues we're getting are from our body. It's neuroception, whether we can feel safe, it's kind of under our awareness. And then interoception, when we feel things, like we can tell how we feel in organ fields, or we notice how we feel internally. when, I think it explains so many healths.

things that come from stress. So many. so because our body is coming up and telling us, we're not, we're not okay. And then our mind is going to interpret that. And if we have trauma, it's probably going to interpret actually negativity bias. A lot of us are going to interpret it negatively. And then that is going to cause more stress. And so I think the key with the vagus nerve is this

Katie Wrigley (27:41.398)
Yes.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (28:07.942)
new idea of there's this, it basically tells the story of the defenses. So, and the evolution of, until the social engagement system, which is needed for our survival. And so the, you know, first sympathetic, I think first dorsal beings maybe, and then first vertebrae, and then sympathetic.

Katie Wrigley (28:23.883)
Yes.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (28:37.086)
came and these vertebrates could run or, you know, fight. And then we get to more sympathetic, but also a shutdown with the dorsal branch. below the diaphragm is the dorsal branch and above is the sympathetic. And so it's these interactions of all these different nerves, like coming together to create our experiences.

Katie Wrigley (28:51.35)
Mm

Meredith Alger, LCSW (29:07.182)
our nervous system states and our ability really to control them, know, learn how to control them a little bit more.

Katie Wrigley (29:17.248)
Yep. Absolutely. And some of that can even be our mindset on stress, right? We all know that stress helps nothing. Like it's never helped anything in the history of the world. But if it's a positive stress, now, yes, now you can, now you can actually utilize that as something that can help propel you forward. But if it's the stress of like, don't want to do this, I can't keep doing this, how am I going to go on?

Meredith Alger, LCSW (29:32.168)
You stress. that you?

Katie Wrigley (29:46.282)
That's the stuff that's draining your life energy from you. That's the negative stress, but turning it around and shifting and like, this is an opportunity. This is a challenge. I'm excited about a challenge. Like, obviously we're not immediately switching state like that. That's practice to get into it. But that is one of the things that's available to us in using the work with the Polyvagal System Theory. I'm not sure how to refer to it, but.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (29:55.59)
Thank you.

Right.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (30:02.93)
Right.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (30:11.656)
probably make it up to you.

Katie Wrigley (30:13.216)
Theory, yeah. So, but utilizing that, that's a way, that's a tool that you have that can help you start to get into that state and start to shift some of the feelings, emotions you have around stress into more positive, more motivating energies for you.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (30:31.56)
Yeah, and that happens often slowly, especially if we're in that shutdown. Because if once we're shut down, we're in a freeze to collapse, like an awesome, please dad. And like that happened the other day in my yard actually. But so it really is coming up slowly enough to not over, let's say,

Katie Wrigley (30:44.563)
Yeah.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (31:00.35)
get overly sympathetic too quickly and just come back down, but we can titrate that and become, we can then like add on a little bit and a little bit and a little bit. When we're, mean, and freeze is hard and so many of us live in a functional freeze. So many clients, always so many.

Katie Wrigley (31:18.724)
yeah, yeah. I really was and just again, I just want to give an example to illustrate what you're talking about. So my my trauma response was to freeze like that was it before and I have a reactive dog who I absolutely love, but she's afraid of other animals. She's even afraid of my cats and she's a German Shepherd. So it's not like she's a Chihuahua and the cats are twice her size like.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (31:42.769)
I did, yeah.

Katie Wrigley (31:45.438)
She's a big dog, but she's been afraid. I like look back and I'm like, I wish I had been so much more aware when she was a puppy, because she would probably be a little bit more even kilter at this point if I had been, but I wasn't. So she didn't want to shot hell of being regulated when she was a puppy, but we're doing great now. But she now I'm losing my train of thought on that one, but it was.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (31:57.542)
And you end up with a moon.

Right.

Katie Wrigley (32:09.366)
Totally lost.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (32:09.416)
An example of the freeze and...

Katie Wrigley (32:13.9)
yes, thank you. So walking her, if we come across an unleashed dog, I used to freeze if the unleashed dog was coming towards us. And so I knew that I had made a big change when the next time an unleashed dog came at us and I whipped my dog around behind my back and I went to the other dog going, no. And the dog listened and I'm like, holy cow, it worked. Wow.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (32:35.582)
Yeah?

Katie Wrigley (32:39.402)
And then the owner came and got the dog, like instead of like freezing and then my dog scared because I'm scared. was like, nope, action. No. And the dog felt that. And I purposely used my hand to push back and I programmed that response in with cognitive movement was, okay, when I'm doing this, like we're no longer going to freeze. And so I practiced before I had her with me. So I had more confidence. I practiced of just like I'd see a dog. If it was barking, I just

Meredith Alger, LCSW (32:47.102)
Yeah.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (33:09.183)
Okay.

Katie Wrigley (33:09.238)
you know, and just send it out from my hand with love, like, hey, it's all right, buddy. And the dog would like calm. And I'm like, my God, they really do feel our energy. I've heard that, but now I'm seeing it. What else could I do? Now my dog's going, I don't know if you could hear her going that to the background.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (33:18.324)
Yeah.

of lending.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (33:25.354)
My less regulated dog, but younger dog, is a great regulator. though, on his own and on my own, sometimes it's like we're a little bit both stressed when we watch his breathing. It is like, and then he slips down a little more and I slow my following his. And then, you know, that kind of thing is amazing.

Katie Wrigley (33:31.133)
So.

Katie Wrigley (33:42.294)
you

Katie Wrigley (33:50.194)
Yep.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (33:55.4)
and the practice and the energy. It's all of it. You know, that's what I love about this, about what I do. It really is everything. It's everything. It's quantum physics. It's everything. And I think quantum physics is showing we have cells in our brain that like, that's how various parts light up at the same time and things like that. And when we're in the functional freeze,

Katie Wrigley (34:06.315)
It is.

Yeah.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (34:23.742)
I think it's really important to know that's when we're not thinking. So that's when our prefrontal cortex is really not. Yeah, exactly. And so we're not making good decisions. If we're learning, we're not. mean, so if we're in an educational setting, like a school, and it's really activated, we're not learning. So it's very, like, it is, it's so important. And I think schools is a huge.

Katie Wrigley (34:28.747)
No.

Katie Wrigley (34:32.02)
It's offline.

Katie Wrigley (34:42.038)
you

Meredith Alger, LCSW (34:51.956)
place where maybe some of this regulation can begin co -regulating with people.

Katie Wrigley (34:56.684)
yeah. yeah. The school experience has so much impact. Like whether we were bullied, whether we were popular, whether we were included, like all of that plays in and feeds into who we are as adults. I agree completely in that co -regulation that you're talking about. It's huge and it happens with everybody. Like you can, when you start to bring awareness to it, you'll start to see the truth of what Meredith is talking about in your own experience interacting people just notice like

you're going to be feeding off of each other one way or another. And that's one of the things Tony Robbins is a master at state change and making you feel or put you into a state where you can do the impossible, like running over hot coals. He's a master of that. And what he does to prepare to be on stage is phenomenal. Like he's guarding his energy. My friend and I were having to talk about this of like, we're noticing how...

Meredith Alger, LCSW (35:42.836)
Right.

Katie Wrigley (35:54.602)
we can hold more space for more people as we continue to do the own work that we do for that we recommend for clients. And I'm sure you're noticing that in your own experience as well. The more healing we do, the more capacity we have, the more energy we have, the more we can start to share that energy and help other people benefit from it. Like I would guess if I was around Tony Robbins within five seconds, I would probably feel totally calm because he's going to be using his energy to influence me because he's a master at that.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (36:23.538)
Right. And that is really interesting to bring up. think energy is so important. And when we look at things like energy healing and tapping, for example, along our meridians, and we bring in that kind of more ancient and Eastern techniques and ideas, you know, that's very helpful. it's, you know, being around people.

Katie Wrigley (36:34.87)
Mm

Katie Wrigley (36:47.402)
this.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (36:53.064)
Sometimes I need to protect myself and I do that energetically. For example, I'm gonna see that family member who might be challenging or...

Katie Wrigley (37:02.326)
Yeah. People have challenging family members? What?

Meredith Alger, LCSW (37:06.172)
Yeah, no, just kidding. No, no.

Katie Wrigley (37:07.788)
No one in the history of the world has ever had a challenging family member. I love that.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (37:14.843)
Yeah, or you know, anybody who is challenging. For me, it's a lot of medical trauma. So going to the doctor, I've really had to like learn how to be self -led, I guess, because otherwise I go back to three -year -old mode. I do. I have tantrums in the middle of a doctor's office. So that is changed a lot. So we've got a lot better. But you know, that's the real thing.

Katie Wrigley (37:35.201)
Mm

Meredith Alger, LCSW (37:43.132)
I think doctors, they need support. And I think if they knew more of this and knew how much it could impact the outcome for their patients, even that energy is real and important.

Katie Wrigley (38:01.848)
That is a whole other podcast episode to go into the medical community. But yes, I agree completely. This has been so awesome to be able to chat with you. So where can people find you and who can you work with? Because I know you've got a couple of certifications and licenses, so there could be some state rules around it. Would love to hear how and where people can connect with you. And we'll make sure we have this all in the show notes too.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (38:03.817)
I

Meredith Alger, LCSW (38:24.606)
Great, so people can connect with me at meredith at liminalhorizons .com. Liminal Horizons is my clinical practice. And then with energy work, with all the things that are not clinical coming out, I do also coaching through sensing fields and.

So for example, things like the Safe and Sound Protocol, which is one of Polly Vagle's tools, that's something I can do and I can talk about it with the person and where they are. But Illinois is where I am, near Chicago, Evanston, Illinois. So really anyone in Illinois and any professionals out there, I'm loving this.

So thank you and I would love to connect with more people and just keep having this conversation and sharing it.

Katie Wrigley (39:23.616)
Yes, thank you. would love that too. And so Meredith, I've had an offline conversation, we really want to put a workshop together because we are so like -minded and we're all about collaboration and helping be of service to more people. So when we have that worked out, we will definitely announce it with you. But for now, it's just a thought. Is there any action item that you would want someone to take going back to the beginning of our conversation, talking about that person?

who is not in their body right now and who is in a state of suffering, they may be getting close to starting to consider to end their own life, just really just miserable. What would you say to that person, Meredith, as a good place to start?

Meredith Alger, LCSW (40:02.516)
well, that person is likely very isolated. Our worlds get smaller with trauma and a lack of connection. so reaching out, even if it's to a hotline, getting connected with an individual and having someone to co -regulate with is really helpful. And then there are exercises that can help us change state. There are some on my website, Liminal Horizons. There's others that are, you know,

through breath work, can find EFT videos, tapping videos, and go along with them. Talk to your doctor, talk to a therapist, and know that there is hope. And know that even the suicidal part, who really is like, I'm done, that is a protector, that is trying to say, you don't have to suffer anymore. And let me just say, you don't have to kill yourself. That's a part.

And you can feel better without listening to that part who's trying to affect you. So yeah, I think just knowing it's a part is helpful because coming at it with compassion and curiosity and really, but with another person is important sometimes.

Katie Wrigley (41:05.889)
Yes.

Thank you for that.

Katie Wrigley (41:20.364)
Yeah, absolutely and making sure you've got a trusted person who can help. So within every state now there is the 988 that you can call that is free to you. If you are in a state that has a area code, ask them to route you to the specialist in your state. Let them know where you are. These are people who are skilled in suicide prevention. They are skilled in crisis.

intervention, they are going to be able to help you and start to connect you to resources. So if you don't have a trusted network, if you feel like, especially if you're a first responder, there's so much out there. There's a lot of you do not feel safe to let people know that you're struggling because it could potentially, unfortunately, negatively impact your job. The 988 number is not going to do anything to hurt your career. So please reach out to them.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (42:06.258)
and neither will a therapist unless, you know, and there are certain limits to that, but really only when you are actively planning to commit suicide. It's not a taboo thing to talk about anymore because so many people are suffering and feeling desperate. I think we need to talk about it.

Katie Wrigley (42:17.418)
Yep. Yeah.

Katie Wrigley (42:29.076)
Yeah, and it's because of that a lot of people are feeling desperate because of the old mentality to just shove it on, suck it up and keep going. Don't do that. Think of it like a vacuum, right? You're sucking up the stuff to keep going. At some point the vacuum bag is going to get full and it's going to explode into disease, into pain, into a heart attack, into death, into something you don't want. So empty the vacuum bag. Just get it out of your body somehow, someway, please.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (42:36.636)
Yes, you don't have to do that. You don't have to do that.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (42:57.232)
Absolutely. Yes, take a walk. The bilateral movement will be great. Nature is great. Connect.

Katie Wrigley (43:01.866)
Yes, yeah. Yeah, you can even just let your eyes you want extra bilateral just watch your size as you walk it in that extra movement just start to get the body going. Go to the gym do something anything to just start to shift your state and get you out of that. There's no hope. Yes, yes, thank you. Thank you so much Meredith for your time, your expertise and your energy. Very excited to collaborate on our workshop.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (43:19.156)
head and come into your body.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (43:27.156)
Thank you.

Meredith Alger, LCSW (43:31.986)
Me too, I will talk to you soon.

Katie Wrigley (43:33.632)
Yes, and thank you audience for joining us today. I know there is a lot out there that you could be listening to and I appreciate your attention on this episode. Come back again next week. I'm gonna have another amazing episode for you. I think I'm gonna do a solo episode as my next and until then be well.