Episode 19 - Subscribe For Success: Expert Influencer Marketing Tips That Will Get You Results

Get ready to unlock the mysteries of influencer marketing in the gaming world with the insights of Lynn Marie from Lurkit. This episode peels back the layers on the actual costs of influencers and busts myths about their marketing prowess. We shine a spotlight on the unsung heroes—micro-influencers—and their uncanny ability to forge deep connections in niche gaming communities. It's not just about throwing game codes at content creators; it's about nurturing authentic relationships and tapping into the unique audiences that truly vibe with your game.

When authenticity meets collaboration, magic happens in the realms of gaming and cosplay. Authenticity is the name of the game as we discuss genuine connections in influencer campaigns, and how they can transform a marketing strategy. We glean valuable lessons from a Gamescom case study, illustrating the power of real engagement over superficiality. The episode also heralds a new era of consumer relations, where developers are building closer ties with players and content creators, providing resources like cosplay guides and early game access that are reshaping the industry.

Measuring campaign success is an art, and in this episode, we challenge the conventional wisdom that views are king. Instead, we argue for engagement as the crown jewel, where influencers can cultivate a lasting community around a game. You'll hear about underdog influencers who punch well above their weight, just like Brock Purdy's surprising ascent in the NFL. It's an episode that champions the genuine passion of creators whose impact is measured in more than just numbers, and it offers a blueprint for how fostering these connections can foster a vibrant gaming community.

Transcript

Intro 00:02

Welcome to the GamesPR podcast, your regular dose of video game PR goodness. Sit down, relax, as our team of experts and special guests share tips and tricks to help you level up your PR game with media and influences.

Jack 00:23

Welcome to this latest episode of the GamesPR podcast, your one-stop shop for everything to do with PR marketing in the games industry. I was really going to try to say hello in Swedish, but I'm not sure I can nail the pronunciation because we're joined by our friends from Lurkit today. Is it Halloa?

Lynn-Marie 00:47

Yeah, that's excellent!

Jack 00:51

Okay, we're working on it. Welcome Lynn Marie from Lurkit to talk about influencers today. It's been a while since we did an influencer-themed episode, so we thought, who better to get on than Lurkit because you're all about influences?

Lynn-Marie 01:09

Thank you, I'm happy to be here.

Jack 01:12

And, as always, I am joined by my trusty co-host, Tom/producer man, in the engine room. All around, welcome back to me, and you can do many different things.

Tom 01:23

That's a jack of all trades.

Jack 01:25

Wait, that's my thing, my name so I think we should dive right into today's topic which, as the title says, is all about influencers. It's going to be having a general discussion about all kinds of different things. The last influencer episode we did was more focused on the kind of what goes into pitching influencers itself, but I think we're going to have a more broader discussion today about more of a marketing theme. It's a question we get a lot. An early one is how much does an influencer cost, and that's the classic how much is a ball of string? I think, again, one of the reasons we wanted to bring Lurkit on today is to talk about things like common misconceptions about influencer marketing, the value micro influences can bring, how to even identify influences you should be working with, and what some strategies are that people might not have thought of, because it is quite a broad topic and there's a lot you can do, more than just sending out a code to someone to play a game. So let's jump right in, I think, off the bat. What is Lurkit?

Lynn-Marie 02:52

Yeah, I would say I would like to first start telling you a bit like a background story to how I found out about Lurkit. Before I started Lurkit, I used to work for an investment company and inside that investment company we're investing in games and studios and we had like a publishing branch in house and I was talking to my back then colleague about like well, it would be amazing if we could find like a, because we were trying to find like content creators for an announcement for one of our games. We're like, oh, it would be great if we could have like some sort of like platform with influencers. We could like create campaigns and such. And I was like, yeah, that would be amazing.

And then I had like a brief talk with my friend of mine and I was like it would be so cool if that was a thing. And he was like, yeah, we actually have a working at a company. That's exactly what you're looking for, and that's Lurkit. I was like that's amazing and I at the time didn't know that I was going to start working there. But that's exactly what it was, what it is, and that's a platform to support, like the gaming ecosystem and we are all gamers I would say all of us in Lurkit are gamers, so we would like to like support, not only so look at supports, not only like companies, but also the content creators. So it's more like a platform where anyone could like execute or manage influencers campaigns At a scale. So I think that's a very good one and it's a perfect tool kit to kind of like find your content creator and the content creator can find games. That puts them like like a shopping window for content creators.

Jack 04:55

I like the shopping analogy there because that's what it can feel like at times From a game dev perspective. You know a developer might have some names in mind for their game, but if they are in a quite a niche genre, perhaps they might not go, have any idea who those influences are, and they need to go find them. I think a common thing we see is and it's the same when reaching out to media is finding a game that's similar or you've been inspired by and using that as a starting point in order to try and find an influencer who's playing those games. And that's where you know the audience is looking.

Lynn-Marie 05:39

Yeah.

Jack 05:40

And I know, tom, you know we've worked on some pretty, some pretty niche games and it can be that can be that the first first port of call is going, or what game is similar to this?

Tom 05:53

Yeah, yeah, I think. And then that sometimes can can bring problems, you know, especially if a lot of people have, you know, a lot of influences, have managed to be successful by playing one or two things and you might look and think, well, that's, that's something similar to what we're making, so maybe they'll be interested in what we've got. But the reality is that, you know, say, I think some of the binding advice is always an example. I think it's a good one. If someone plays behind an advisor, they don't play it necessarily because it's a rogue like or, you know, dungeon crawling, they play it because it's behind an advisor. So the chance of you managing to pull them away from that's really, really low.

But that and that's like a balance that you really have to have to weigh up, which can be tricky sometimes is, you know, we need to. You need to identify people who play things that have a similarity to what you're presenting. But you have to. You have to make sure you're going to people who actually have the door open to try and out new things, which is one of the things not to come back to lurk it by. Thinks quite good about lurk is the fact that you get, you can see. You know if you, if you're searching for a specific person, you can see how much of a certain game they've played and you can get an idea. For well, they like the kind of thing that we've got and they do play lots of different stuff, so maybe there's a chance for us. But yes, it's just all. It's a balancing act, like a lot of things when it comes to influencers, so it's just one of them.

Jack 07:31

I would say that's one of the common misconceptions actually is is that it can be tricky. An influencer might only play one genre, but it doesn't mean that they only play one game. So you have to be aware that there are some going to use Amy's favourite destiny here, that there are some creators who will will only play destiny, and just because you might have a game similar to that doesn't mean they're going to be interested. There's, there's a reason they only play destiny is that's what is bringing in the views, it's the known quantity. But then there are others who will take take the risk on that. So I know from like a viewer's perspective. There are some influencers is like oh, they're playing a series, I'm here to watch them play this specific series, and then when they play something else you might go well, I'm interested in that, so you don't, you don't watch it. So that's the risk of punting on something new that influencers have to take.

Lynn-Marie 08:38

Yeah, I've seen that. Years ago, when I just joined the industry, I was working close to a studio who did that mistake. They were hiring one content creator, influencer, to play their game and it was a total mess because that particular creator, he was playing one game and that was the only game, and he just took a break to play that game and his audience went wild. They were like no, what are you doing? We're looking at your channel because you're playing this game. Why are you playing this? Like it was not an indie game, but it was like it was not big enough. They're like why stop doing that? And the game died two weeks after release. So they put all the money in one basket, all the eggs in one basket, and that wasn't that successful.

Tom 09:31

I think that as an example is a really good example of how it's not always it's not as easy as just finding so many people and then just getting something emailing them and be like, oh, check this out, there's so much audiences is another thing that outside you have to consider the actual influence of themselves and what they like. But you also have to know what the audience likes and I think one of the if I'm looking for people on YouTube, even just seeing you know if you look at viewing metrics they might play loads of different games. But if the viewers concentrate around certain games and that tells you what the audience wants, to be vague with the genres to make it as easy to understand as possible. Say, you have like a real time strategy game and you might approach someone who does play those games, if it's more of like a variety creator who plays loads of different genres. But if every video they make about a real time strategy game trends lower with views and engagements and comments than videos on other type you know other genres then it's a question of well, how effective is it really to put your game in front of that audience?

Because the likelihood is that they will engage with it a lot less than they will with other games, and there's maybe other creators out there who might be smaller or more niche, but have the right audience and, you know, have strong engagement with the kind of game that you're presenting to them. So I think it's just there's no like blanket approach, and it's not just always a case of finding someone who has a million views every video and just being like, well, get them to play it. That's the problem solved, because what happens is like what you were saying before, lynn, about this case of putting all the eggs in one basket and then it doesn't return, and then that's a whole another problem that they have to deal with.

So, do your research.

Lynn-Marie 11:41

Yeah, yeah, I think that's really important to kind of do your due diligence, to kind of like find because I was actually at the lunch yesterday. We were talking exactly, but we were discussing now, like, when it comes to genre, like, even if you have someone likes I don't know, let's say, an FPS game, I mean it doesn't necessarily mean that you play all of them or focus on them because, like, the genres are growing so fast and it's so important to understand your as a developer, as a publisher, to understand the genre and the community around. That. I saw that when I worked both for a investment company with publishing and now also in lurk. I can definitely see like and I really like that about lurk.

It has a platform. As you said, tom, it's so easy to kind of like find a the right creators and to kind of see, like, what kind of games they are playing and what games they are playing that are more liked in their community. I think that's it's very interesting and also just to give lurking a bit spotlight. I think that it's so great that you can see directly in the platform as well. I think that has been so helpful, because one thing that I found out found very tiresome. Before that I had to like do that like the diligence on my own going through like YouTube and Twitch and TikTok, because TikTok gaming on TikTok is really big, and to kind of do that on your own it's took so much time. So I really appreciate lurk as a platform because it kind of helps you, give you and it gives you more like time to focus on other stuff than just the diligence, although it's important.

Jack 13:44

But I think the other stuff. There is an interesting thing to go down. When we were planning this, this call, we spoke about the kind of content that you might want to make with influencers, and I think that it's important for developers to definitely focus on creating content in the game. But I think I want to get a bit from you on this, amy, is content outside the game. We've obviously spoken about events before and this also links back to you Lynn Easter egg reference here. You've mentioned before about cosplay. Having that community offline at events can be really important to boost that content and, I think, also help make it seem more genuine. So viewers can see lots of sponsored content online people playing the game. But then you might also want to have influencers making vlogs and their experiences at events. Destiny in the pub is something you've run before, amy, where destiny influences full on dressed up, and that is extra content to promote a game in a different way than just another gameplay video.

Lynn-Marie 14:59

Yeah, I think it's here.

I think it's important to make it genuine, like so that it's actually being something that is performed together with, in this case, the cosplayers, that they are part of something.

Of course, you can pay a cost to create costumes and you can do all these things, but it's about, I think it's about, like, the genuine collaboration in this that I find it's very important, not only for the cosplay, but also for the community around the game and also for the cosplay community, because me, as a cosplayer and been in the cosplay community for a while I can see there has been times where they have been taking advantage of because it's like, well, that's a cool thing to do, let's do that because it worked for another genre, and then they can see that it might not work for them because they're not doing it in a genuine way. So I think that's very important, like, if you're doing a campaign, regardless of if it's with cosplayers or not, I think it's just important to do it in a genuine way, together with your community, because they will recognize if it's genuine or not. One thing I noticed.

Amie 16:15

If you don't mind, me adding here one thing I noticed just on the ground on this point.

16:20

We were really lucky last year to work with a quite a prolific I wouldn't say content creator, but kind of a content creator that specializes in videos and going like traipsing the floor at events. Basically, he always gets absolutely swamped by cosplayers and content creators because he is so well known for doing these amazing videos and specializing in this that they know that if anything okay, recorded by him or done by him, oh my god, this is going to really translate for me, this is going to translate to people who are going to see me online and it all folds in to the whole journey of content creators. Cosplay. It's very prolific and that was just going to Gamescom last year and seeing that and seeing the attention that someone like that can draw just from assisting in that journey yeah, I thought that was quite interesting.

Lynn-Marie 17:15

Yeah, that's interesting.

Tom 17:18

Yeah, I think I'm glad you said that, amy, because I think it actually helps with what I was going to say, which is nice and it's a really valid point to make. I think that I feel like there's and I understand I feel like there's there is a degree of like cynicism around. You know very heavily in games, journalism nowadays, from like outside perspectives, and I think the same is. I think the same is somewhat true of influences as well, and I understand why people have that cynicism. But I think something really important and it's what you know you've both touched on is the fact that when you do a campaign right even if there's, you know, like sponsorship involved that for me there's always it's always important to have that genuine sense of engagement with the people that we're, you know, working with. So when that's been like paid content in the past, it's not just being a case of us going to people you know willy nilly and just choosing people at random, just being like right, you'll do that great. There. There always has to be, I feel, that sense that on both sides of things we've got two people who are engaged with the game that we're working with. They've got a genuine interest in it and I think that always translates to you know better videos, better live streams, and I won't.

18:43

I think you know people are very aware nowadays of when they're being sold something and it doesn't seem genuine, and I think we see it all the time. So I think it's super important to make sure that you know and that's not always something you can guarantee. People might see it a different way to how you view it, but I think that having that real engagement with the people that you're working with and making sure that people are buying into the game you're presenting as well is really important and can and can definitely help. You know, if you're doing an influencer campaign, I think it can definitely help make it more successful and that, but it comes back to you know, like the point you made about the game, and I think, like looking at, like recognizing the audience of the person that you're looking to work with.

19:36

You know, and if you can do that and you can recognize the audience and you know that you're presenting something to them that's of value, then you I don't think you really have to worry about the the more negative undertones that might come with with things like these nowadays. I hope that made sense.

Lynn-Marie 19:55

I think one thing, like looking back at like I will not say like the back in the days, because this is still something that I feel is. I will not say that there's a big shift, but since the beginning of the pandemic, or let's say before the pandemic, I have felt like, because it was not that long time ago. Then I was, I was only a consumer and I'm still a consumer of games. But looking at, like, what studios and companies, publishers, agencies, are providing to the consumer, I really like the trend, I really like where it's going and we can see that both on the market and, I think, as a consumer as well, because like, for example, for cosplayers, I mean the press kits that the, the like cosplay Bible, brand name Bible that are delivered it and it's also not only for cosplayers but for the community as well.

21:01

We have discord. You're invited to play test. You're kind of like closer to developers and that's also something that I like with like, lurk it, you can do that on. Like it, you can bring in your community to be part of a play test that you like years ago was so far away from like. Oh, I can play test one of my favorite games. I mean it's so cool to be able to do that.

21:25

So I really like that kind of like closeness in how you meet the consumer in a way, because influencers, content creators, are consumers as well. So I kind of like that link and also how much you can learn from each other, like looking at one could be the cosplay community, but also like the influencer community, the content creators, what they have provided and what they can provide in terms of content. It kind of like goes back directly to the developers as well, because they are. It's so important for them to get the feedback from them as well. So it's kind of like a good relationship going on and I really like that trend. I hopefully that will make us, the developers, create better games and more diverse and more inclusive games. So I'm I really like the trend where it's going. The only problem being.

Tom 22:27

There's too many games. That's the only problem. There's just too many of them.

Lynn-Marie 22:33

Yeah, and too little time.

Tom 22:36

That's the problem. That's a good way to say it. Actually, it's not the fact there's too many games. That's not the issue. It's the lack of time that we all have. That's the problem. We need more hours, yeah, we need the time machine to be able to play all these games.

Jack 22:51

You mentioned time there. I think this goes back to again possibly identifying the right influencer. If your game is a very story heavy game, maybe you don't want to go heavy on on Twitch because somebody might play the whole thing and audiences then don't feel they need to buy the game because they've seen someone play through the whole story. Similarly, if you have a, a puzzle game, perhaps again that's more suited for for YouTube than it is for Twitch and there are benefits for both platforms. And I think, as a developer, when you're putting together this strategy, you have to keep in mind what kind of content do I want from this? If I want people playing through the whole thing, is that a YouTube? Do I want people making guides and tips or do I just want people just playing it and then Twitch being in the moment, being able to react? So take a step back, once you've identified what games are similar and maybe where those are being played, and let that influence where you are looking at to reach creators on the platform.

Lynn-Marie 24:09

Definitely. I agree 100%. I think that was a good in in point theory. Jack, well done.

Jack 24:17

Jack, I had another one as well. I'm conscious you got a you got a jump soon, amy but I wanted to get we've spoken about merchandise before and sometimes a way of building a relationship with an influence series. Maybe they've played your game and they start liking it and you want to do more with them, and it is. What else can you do? Can you give them press kits you know Cyberpunk was was a massive one or the creators showing off all the cool stuff they got from that? Even if your budget isn't super high as a developer, should you be thinking about some extra creative things to keep that influence relationship going once they've already played it? For that next level, what can you? What can you do?

Lynn-Marie 25:02

I think one thing that is important is that doesn't have to be like this very expensive, like giveaways such as Cyberpunk did, because they had a pretty high budget for that game. But I think, like small things can go so far because I think, like what you have like stickers is one thing that people like it. Also, you can also be such like including them in play tests, including them in a discord room where they can chat with developers it could be taking part of. Maybe you have like an online event. I think it doesn't have to be that big, but if you depending on your budget, of course but I think like think about the things that would be mean a lot to you as a consumer. What would you like to be involved in? I mean both me and Amy.

25:59

I'm a huge tri-shock fan and I think that's one of the best games and one of my best experiences ever has been when they have done like this events where you are and I found out about them on LinkedIn, I think and to take part in like developer discussions, developers talking about the games and being able to directly ask them to a chat.

26:25

I think that was just so cool for me and it may not seem that big for others, but I think it's just the small things will create huge value in the end, because it's like about I see it as a long term relationship that you're building both with a content creator but also your community, and you need to. Sometimes we talk about like this big thing, we need to do this really big, but I think it's important to see it as maybe putting speaking of the eggs again, not putting all the eggs at the same time in the basket, just one at a time, to make sure that you're building to understand what they actually like and what they want, because it, of course, depends on the game and the genre and also the community what they are expecting. But small things can I mean it will create huge engagement.

Amie 27:22

I think, if I may add, I think you made a really good point then about just little things to keep that sort of thread going from start to finish and not just deciding to go oh, this month we're gonna chuck out a press kit because we feel like it and that we owe them something. It's about actively engaging your own community just through little bits, and I think that's a very valid point. And the other routes that you mentioned about, oh, it doesn't just have to be a physical thing. It's about being on the journey and being in the same boat engaged with a developer.

27:56

I think that's super important and in my case, I know we all collect our own stuff. I have tons of stuff from Gamescoms and GDCs and other random bits that I don't need. But do I feel loved when I get them? Yeah, I do, because it's important to me to have those things, but it just really helps bring that community together. But I think the point I'm trying to make is it's a very long way of me to say this it's just that thread that it's not disconnected anymore. It is all the way through from you have a game, you have a community, you want to engage that community. How do we keep that engagement going and that thread is now longer and more constant now than I think it ever has been.

Tom 28:43

I think to add to what both of you have said.

28:48

I think when it comes to offering, it's the same with journalists as well, but we're focusing on influencers, but it's always just about having a good value proposition for people, so that could even be something as simple. If you've not got a huge budget, it could just be if we use onLurk, it upload demo keys to a game ahead of time say, however long before launch and write we've got a new demo. It might be publicly accessible, but if you take a key from us through here, you get early access to keys when the launch comes around and that instantly creates a hook for the person, not only to create content now, but to come back later on, and you're not doing anything to really allow that to happen. It's just something very simple and it might not convert 100%, but say, if 50% to 60% of the people that you engage with for that demo come back eventually and say, yeah, well, now they've sent me the key for the full game.

29:58

It's things like that which are quite simple to do but can be really effective, and that's obviously just one example, but it's just a case of you look at what you're working with and you figure out ways to effectively engage people, and that's always been one for me where I always think it's really important, to whatever stage or project you're at, if you can keep giving people little, bite-sized chunks of something that keeps them coming back next time, you don't have to worry about having a huge overall reason to be there, because you can keep offering little ones which keep people engaged all the way through the process.

Amie 30:38

And not all of those things have to involve spending money either, like as we were talking about. That's something else if you're like a relatively small studio and indie developer, something like that, to be able to just offer those little things. Sometimes that's all they can offer because they don't have the budget to make gorgeous press kits or do an in-person event or whatever it may be.

Lynn-Marie 30:59

Yeah, I totally agree, and I think that we have seen that on Lurkit as well, because we do both paid campaigns and organic campaigns and especially when it comes to we have upcoming Steam next-west now in February, starting in next week and a lot of questions, especially for the smaller companies, small indies for self-publishing, are like why should we show the demo on Lurkit? We don't have any keys. We can solve that as well with links, but I think that has been. It's so important for them to understand the importance of what you said, tom, so they are showing the demo and showing where they are in terms of development, inviting them to the discord.

31:49

I think it's like building the connection to understand also because you learn so much about your game through your consumers and through the content creators what they are creating, because they are playing games.

32:01

Often they understand the value of what they are saying about the game and you can learn so much about what the creator says in their content as well. Like, oh, because one thing that I have discovered working close to developers is that they are playing their game, they're creating the game in one way and then a consumer comes up and plays the game in a totally different way. I think that's so interesting. It's like they were not supposed to do that, but now it's like. I don't know if it can make a good example of it, but it's so interesting to see how they are like, okay, they were not supposed to do that, but now they're doing that. So maybe we should implement that in the game, or maybe we should think about when the full game releases to avoid that. So I think that's really important. You get so much feedback, not only from the community, but also the content creator, because they are very good at creating good content and know exactly how to engage with the community in a way that you, as a developer and publisher, maybe even can't.

Jack 33:11

So I think it's a good standpoint. For some developers that is going to be the first time they've had any public feedback and player testing. It's really, really frequent among indie devs to not have any opportunity to have their game play tested before, so they are the only ones who know how it is and let you say maybe how it's supposed to work, and then that's influences allow them to not just have extra content to promote the game but also serve a second role as feedback testing. Bug reports especially, as you keep saying, when you can bring them into the discord, they become almost like playtesters. They can help you figure out bugs, implement that feedback and when you start pushing out new builds, even before they go public, you're pushing them first to those influences that you've built up a relationship with, and I think that's something we see a lot on.

34:14

Lurk it as well, as there can be creators who, as a PR agency, we obviously work on multiple games, but this can also apply to publishers who have multiple games as you start recognizing oh, that creator, I know they're good because they like this, they've worked on this one with me before and you can start returning based on who they are, and so it's a relationship that will follow across multiple projects, multiple games, because you're building that with them to the point where they might go. I know you've got this coming up. I'm really keen to work. Doesn't always have to be paid, but that can extend into brand partnerships and they might not even be playing your game, but that might be wearing your merch on stream, because that's what it's come down to as they start becoming an ambassador that way, which goes back to our talk of merch again.

35:06

Doesn't have to be anything expensive, like a cool cyberpunk jacket, which Alex has, and I really want one, but even if it's just a hoodie hoodies are really popular and, again, not inexpensive, not expensive. It's good, depending on what you get, but can be a really simple way of providing someone with something that can just keep your game on screen even if they're playing something else.

Lynn-Marie 35:32

Yeah, and sometimes where a merchandise can also revive some of some games. I remember I went to talk a game show a lot of years ago and we had like a reunion of people that I've met through playing CS back in the days, and one of them he was wearing I don't remember what game it was now, but he was wearing like a t-shirt that he had kind of made himself, and so him and his friends, I need to remember what game that was. But he and his friends, they were like we need to start playing that game again. It was like a first online game. I need to remember that, but anyway, so they just went back and playing the game again. So they were kind of like trendsetting a little bit.

36:18

So I think that's merchandise. I mean, we retro games are like one of the coolest genres. I love all the games and I think, as you said, tom, there's a lot of games, too little time. But I can also see like this Some games are like slow burner. They're there for a long, long time and with merchandise, I think it's good thing to kind of remember, make people remember your game.

Tom 36:46

It's quite like a sour merchandise. I'm always wearing Pikmin. This is my plan, my evil Pikmin plans to get everyone in the world to play Pikmin. Join me, join me on this glorious plant creature throwing journey. It's well worth it.

Lynn-Marie 37:02

The next podcast we're all going to wear this.

Tom 37:05

Everyone's just in a Pikmin hat. I love that.

Jack 37:09

Go on, Amy.

Amie 37:11

No, no, I was just going to say like if we should do like another podcast on like fashion in the games industry, because there is something about like no, seriously, because, like this, playing being a destiny player is a very sad thing to be, quite honestly. Lots of delays, etc. Etc. But back in the day, if you were to like and they still do it now if you're to complete like certain you know achievements in the game or like whatever it is you're doing, you can then access like merchandise because you've completed like a raid or like basically, I am wearing the kudos that I deserve and everyone that plays destiny will know that I've done this thing.

37:51

It's like a bit of a cred thing. Yes, it's like, and you know, just thinking back to like, you know, I see Alex, like our, our account director, is he now? Yeah, just like, have all these really cool like old t-shirts, you know, with these like old school games on, and it's just like God, I remember that. Or like I remember seeing someone out in the wild in like a portal t-shirt now portal, my God is years old now but absolutely played that game to death and I loved it and I stopped and I can just say God, I can just say God I can talk to someone about portal, like that's a very niche thing to know about.

38:21

But sorry to go on, this is a very different tangent here, but I just think that's quite an interesting.

Tom 38:26

It's a good tangent.

Lynn-Marie 38:28

Yeah, but but I think it's, I think it's quite, I think it's quite important because that's I think it's about as we were talking about merchandise keeping the community engaged, and I mean, we do have events that are online through Steam and other platforms as well. But I think it's so important because we, we are creatures who wants to meet, who wants to engage, who wants to talk about games? And one thing that I find so beautiful with games is that when you do find your, your pals with like it's, it's so like lovely. When you are like at gamescom, you see someone with a t-shirt and it could be a game that very few have heard about, but it could be like a small logo and you just come up to that person and you just it's so great, it's the experience. And he was like well, I received this because I was part of the play testing. I've never seen that t-shirt before.

39:29

Well, I was part of play testing and I think that is that's also good marketing, because then you are again involving the, the community, the gamers, to take part. So, as you said, jack, it doesn't have to be like cool jackets, but it can be like a t-shirt that only is given to creators and you keep that t-shirt for years. It's not being let go. You're keeping that t-shirt in your pile of t-shirts for years, until you I'm going to gamescom. So on Thursday I'm wearing this one because I'm going to this party and people will know and I like that. I think that's good marketing.

Tom 40:09

I feel like there's something I mean. Obviously, you know, journalists and influencers are very different and they're both in their own very separate lands or pots or however we want to group them. But I think one of the one of the biggest strengths I believe that an influencer has as opposed to a journalist is that I think, more naturally, influencers are able to be in communities and and actors, not leaders but have these presence within gaming communities that I think journalists just don't have. And I think that kind of comes back to what you know mentioned before about there's strange hostilities towards some people in games journalism for silly reasons, that. But then I think influencers come in and it's it's very much the kind of consumers, the kind of not consumers, and I think people have more of that inherent trust where if they watch someone and that person's playing a game and they really enjoy it, they're looking, think, well, I'll enjoy that, I'll get involved in. You know, here we go. I found the steam page. There's the link to the discord, I'll join the discord and go from there, and I think that's something that's very unique to influencers.

41:32

I think there's very few journalists from from my perspective, who have the ability to kind of lead conversations or guide people towards games by their own name, because obviously so many journalists work under, you know, big brands like IGN, pc game and so on and so far. So there's that that individuality isn't there, whereas with an influencer, most of the time it's one person, it's a one person operation and I think that, as a consumer, if you watch someone, if you watch that person engage with a game, you don't think, oh, but you know, but they're the part of this bigger thing and and I think that's something that people really should try to use more because it's a real strength of influencer marketing. I don't think any other anything else within the games industry really is able to do and it can help. It can help, obviously, sell, sell your game, but in a really unique way and and you know it's about being on that journey and I think that's something you can get when you know you have strong influencer presence within within a campaign that you're doing.

Jack 42:57

Potentially devil's advocate. Here, though, it's a question we get asked a lot and it's it's always a hot topic Micro influences. If the influencer seems to tickle the boxes of being interested in the game, fitting the bill, but to an outsider doesn't have thousands and thousands or millions of subscribers, what value can they still bring? Why should you still put some effort into reaching out to them, Even if they don't seem to have the following but they tick all the other boxes? Or does no one have an answer? It's a good question.

Tom 43:37

I'm happy to offer my opinion. I think it's something that I've touched on before In my you know again, just my opinion, but I think my opinion's backed with some. There is some knowledge. I do have some knowledge. I believe somewhere To me.

43:56

If you have someone who say you know 10,000 subscribers, they normally get 2 or 3,000 views per video. So for talking about YouTube, if they solely make content about trying to pluck a genre I haven't already used, I'm looking at my game shelf trying to think of something 3D platformers. So you've got someone 10,000 subscribers, 2 or 3K views per video, they make content only about you know new 3D platformers, which is a genre which doesn't it needs more love than it gets. That's a separate point. But if you put them against someone who, say, has 100,000 subscribers, they might get you know 8,000, 9,000 views per video. But their content is on a whole range of different things. It's like, well, which one? Which one suits you better?

44:45

If you're making a 3D platformer, to me it's the smaller creator, who people are only there for one reason, and that's your best shot at getting the game in front of people who potentially there's 3,000 people watching that video who you'd imagine would have, by default, an interest in your game, whereas if it's someone much bigger but they make much wider content they might get 10,000 views.

45:12

But how many people are actually interested in 3D platformers? And to me, that's where the value of smaller creators comes in to me, because I think you get people who focus on very specific niches. Their audiences know that. That's why the audience is there, and obviously I don't have all the data to back this, but I think that converts more. And I also think smaller creators tend to be a bit more sincere, which is another thing which I think is a strength. They're not at the point where they've got 10 million subscribers and everyone feels like they're disconnected from reality. But that's what I think. I think that's the value of small creators and big up 3D platformers, because they're great. There needs to be more people playing them. So that's just my perspective.

Lynn-Marie 46:14

I think it was a bit of a delay. I missed Jack's question, but I totally agree with you, tom. I think this goes back a little bit, but we talked about putting all the eggs in the same basket, kind of thing. I think it's kind of two I would also say two completely different worlds here, but I think there are some benefits to both.

46:40

I think, and as you said and mentioned, tom, depending on what your goals are for your campaign or for anything close to marketing, if there's something that you are looking for, I think it's just very important to understand that, if you're maybe self-publishing because that's more and more popular these days to do that so I think it's really important to understand the value of what a nano-influencer or a micro-influencer are providing to you, and I think that's why we've been able to maybe talk to an agency such as yours to be able to talk about. What difference does it make for me if I contact this one? And it's also a bit easier, I think, to find a smaller content creator in terms of making sure that you can have direct contact with them. A lot of bigger ones are through an agency, of course, and, for example, at Lurkitsch you can find as a company or an indie studio, you can still find them and invite them directly, regardless if they are through an agency or not. So I think that's one thing that I really like about the Lurkitsch side, but I definitely think it's really important to understand.

48:07

It's so easy to kind of like, well, they did that, let's do that, but it's not like the marketing doesn't look like that. I think it's like to do the copy-paste. It just doesn't work all the time. Sometimes it does, you can look at what others have done and to try to avoid the mistakes that others have done. So I think that's something that I feel is important for the games industry and something that I really like. It's the communication. There's always a person to ask and I think that is like looking at Reddit, looking at the posts that people are talking about, especially for the indie market, that I really like. I like indie games because I think that they have so much to teach us in terms of marketing, but also the way we make games. So long answer to your question, jack, that I think that I understand more of now, but I think it's important to kind of understand. But both of them are good. Do you think that you need to understand your goals.

Tom 49:25

Yeah, I think that's a really good way to put it actually, because, in theory, working with bigger people will give you more awareness. It will because the profile is bigger, so it's been spread out more. So if that's a goal, then it's a good choice, whereas if maybe you are and obviously everyone wants to sell copies of the game obviously so I'm not going to say something stupid like that and that's as if it's some clever discovery I've just made. But yeah, if maybe you're more invested in funneling people directly into the game, then that's where smaller creators can come in, especially because what I said before, I think that people, audiences of those smaller people, tend to trust them a lot more. I think the relationship is a lot more, a lot closer, and I think that people tend to resonate with those recommendations more because they feel more like there's a you know, it's not a point where the person is untouchable. There's still that kind of friendship to it.

50:35

But yeah, I mean it comes to a question of you know, it depends. And maybe another question that's worth discussing is you know, is our views the best way to measure success. What does success look like when it comes to, you know, working with influencers? Yeah, I feel like I just throw that out. There Is that, you know? When it comes down to it, is it a question of well, views are the most important thing you know? Is that how we measure success for these campaigns, or is there more to it?

Lynn-Marie 51:05

I think I got your question and I think this goes also back to what your goals are for your marketing. Are the views the most important, or is the engagement important? So I think here it's important to like not lose control over your campaign or your marketing, to understand that if you put in money into something, it's very important that you kind of take a look at what comes back to you and the results that you are given. For some people, the data is more important. So, looking at how many views you get, you're going to get so many views, but if you don't get the engagement off, that is that a success? So it depends on what you are looking at as success. I think that is different a lot when it comes to how big the game is. For example, looking at this game that was recently Paul World was that the name of the game? Do I pronounce that?

Jack 52:15

Yeah, no, you've got it Currently the world's biggest, yeah, I think.

Lynn-Marie 52:21

or like take a look at Volheim, for example. I mean maybe they didn't get as much views from the beginning, but people were playing the game. There were so many people playing the game and the engagement that one community manager were like engaging to the community. That's success for me, but that's like in my head, that's success and of course, that also showed in the numbers later on. And same with Paul World. A lot of people were watching it, so there were a lot of views, so there were also a lot of people engaging and playing. So I think that it depends on your goals as well. But I think that views equal success, maybe like if they look at the game for one day, but you want the audience or the gamers, the content creators to be involved long term, because that for me, especially if I work with clients such as you, that success in my world, at least if you are keeping them engaged for a long period of time.

53:31

Yeah, that was a good answer.

Jack 53:33

One of the features of Lurkit is showing how many hours a creator has spent playing that game, and that can be a way of seeing that success is. If they've been playing that game for three, four hours, chances are they're liking it and that's four hours of time that viewers have. They can come into a stream and see that game being played for four hours and that again can be a benefit of working with micro-influences is they have possibly a more open schedule. They don't feel they have to commit to a very strict schedule of I need to play this big game for like definitely one hour and then move on to something else. I haven't used a sporting analogy yet and I kind of get one every episode. Here we go.

54:24

If I think everyone's got to start somewhere. Brock Purdy there's a chance, by the time this episode comes out, that he may or may not be Super Bowl champion. He was drafted dead last in the NFL draft. The nickname is Mr Irrelevant because over 200 people have been drafted before you and yet in his second year he has taken that team to the Super Bowl. Everyone's got to start somewhere.

54:48

On paper, the Assymptfluencer might not look that impressive. You might want to go work with 200 others like the Brock Purdy thing, but that influencer might take your game to the top. We've seen it with clients and other influencers. Before they get in early, they become the first few influencers and then that becomes their thing. We saw it with one of our card game clients. They had a very small pool of influencers to start with and to this day those ones are the premier creators for that game because they were there from the start. And that's when audiences know who to go to to see that game, or they type it in on YouTube and they're the creators that come up first because they were first in the door. So take a risk on an influencer who doesn't have hundreds of thousands of subscribers. It can pay off.

Lynn-Marie 55:45

Amen, I like that, especially if you.

Tom 55:48

It's about finding the passion, isn't it? Yeah, if you, I really do believe, I think that you can find people and you can show something to them and be like hi, are you interested in this? And sometimes you get people who come back, and it's the same with journalists as well. You know, I can think of a lot of examples on both sides where people come back and be like, yeah, this is really cool and you can. You know, people have that vested interest in something already and it's not cynical and it's really nice, and then you can have a. You know, you can build these really good relationships with people based on the fact that you both are invested in what you're working with.

56:32

And you know that, to me, never becomes a thing of, well, how many? How many subscribers have you got? How many views are you getting? Because the the important bit is and I think for our clients, it's about getting the game into the hands of people who, you know, care about it and will invest the time into it, because that comes across in the content and that comes across in the videos and the live streams. So, yeah, I think, I think it's possible to make those relationships and they definitely. You shouldn't just ignore those people in favor of you know, the bigger the next big fish that's coming along and that you want to try and reel into. I guess fishing is technically a sport metaphor, is it?

Jack 57:16

Yeah, it's, yeah, we can do.

Tom 57:17

We'll have it.

Jack 57:20

As a famous man once said, there is always a bigger fish, and that brings me Quite on gin. Yes, we're going to be wrapping up now. So any any closing thoughts, any brainwaves that we haven't covered, that anyone wants to get off before we, before we call it here so that our listeners can go away and execute the perfect new strategy of all these great ideas.

Lynn-Marie 57:49

Yeah, I think I first I just want to like say thank you so much for inviting me. It's always a pleasure talking to all of you. It's it's like I think we had like meetings on Fridays and I it's just kicks me into this very nice Friday mood and thinking about like all the layoffs In the industry. I just want to say that like I think this discussions about creating a good like community building games and, in a sustainable way, working with marketing because we will still always need that, we will always need of some content creators creating buzz about your game, and I think it's really important that we kind of like understand that we are working with humans and we are, like we were talking about earlier, before we started this, how it's important to like build a good feeling about around your game, even though you need to like sell, because, in the end of the day, we all want to make money so we can buy Lego and, yeah, it's important to have like ghosts.

59:04

But I also think it's like it's always great to meet great people in this industry and this is why I love working in the games industry. It can be so hard sometimes like people. In times like this, I do really get reminded of why I love working in this industry. So I want to say thank you and also, if anyone is listening to this, if you want to be pitched to see Lurkit, me and my amazing colleagues, we will gladly to give you a tour on the Lurkit platform.

Tom 59:35

Yeah, we'll have as normal. We'll have all the relevant links and things that we've discussed today. That will all be in the blog post and the podcast description. So, yeah, go and definitely go and have a look at Lurkit. We like it, we use it a lot and, yeah, I mean thanks for thanks for taking the time to come on. It's been, yeah, it's been lovely to have this conversation, share some, share some knowledge with people. So I've had a lovely time. A lovely time on today's episode.

Amie 01:00:12

It's nice to meet another Bioshock fan like an outed Bioshock Very, very nice.

Tom 01:00:17

Yeah, we love Bioshock. Big up Bioshock. I did an essay at university about Bioshock. I love Bioshock.

Lynn-Marie 01:00:24

It's a competition. You can join our team, tom, it's a competition. Oh, that was a competition.

Tom 01:00:30

I felt like I needed to come in and like give an example of my love for Bioshock. I can be part of the cool gang that's my submission.

Lynn-Marie 01:00:38

Wear matching t-shirts next time.

Tom 01:00:39

True, everyone gets like a big daddy helmet from somewhere and we just all rock up with the helmets on.

Jack 01:00:46

It sounds like.

Lynn-Marie 01:00:46

I do have a little sister cosplay I can wear. There we go, there we go.

Jack01:00:52

It sounds like we've got two different spin-off podcasts happening.

Amie 01:00:54

now We've got a fashion game and a Bioshock podcast. What See this is?

Jack 01:01:02

excellent, perfect.

Amie 01:01:02

Yeah, I'll be there Same.

Jack 01:01:04

Excellent. As Tom says, links will be in the description for Lurkit and any other resources we've mentioned today, just like we do in other episodes. Please share this with someone if you found it useful or if you think they will find it useful. You can find us on Twitter and slash X at Big Games Machine BigGamesMachinecom as well, where there are lots more resources and other podcast episodes available on your podcast platform of choice, exactly. Thanks again, everyone. I think we're calling it there. I guess we're off to play some games because that's all we seem to do. I wish, yeah, so all we do is play games all day.

Tom 01:01:51

We sometimes have meetings with the rest of the time. Everyone in the games industry just plays games all day. News, breaking news. We just all sit and play games all day.

Lynn-Marie 01:02:03

That's what my kids think that I do.

Tom 01:02:05

That's what my parents think. They're like what have you done today? And I'm like you know that I don't just sit and play games all day. It's like this meme.

Lynn-Marie 01:02:13

It's a little true, like it's, like this meme, like what people think. I do what my parents think I do, what I actually do.

Tom 01:02:20

I've got to give this a Google sheet document. I'm like this is a lot less exciting than Prince of Persia.

Jack 01:02:26

I've got to give this game to someone else so they can play it and tell me how good it is, because I just don't have time to play it for as long as they do. So that's the other benefit of content creators. We talked about it earlier player feedback. That's the good part of cool, Excellent. Well, thank you all for joining me again. Lovely speaking to you and we'll catch everyone.

Tom 01:02:46

Thanks for hosting Jack. I always think we sometimes forget to thank you for hosting. So thanks for hosting Jack and thanks to everyone for listening. Look forward to being back soon with more episodes. Drop in more knowledge.