The HeathenMachine Chronicles
The HeathenMachine Chronicles
Episode 30- Unlocking the Mind: Exploring the Potential of Psychedelics and Mental Health
What if there was a way to unlock profound insights within your own mind, and even potentially aid in the treatment of mental health issues? On today's episode, we discuss the fascinating world of psychedelics and their potential benefits. We explore the research, effects, and how to set yourself up for an optimal experience.
We delve into the history and stigma surrounding psychedelics, and how a new generation of psychedelic advocates like journalist Michael Pollan are helping to bridge the gap between counterculture and mainstream understanding. We also touch on the therapeutic potential of psychedelics for combat veterans and cancer patients, and discuss ongoing research on safety and efficacy. Comparing the effects of psilocybin to traditional medications like SSRIs, we share personal experiences and emphasize the importance of intention, set, and setting for a positive and transformative journey.
Join us as we navigate this compelling topic and uncover the power of psychedelics to transform lives, expand our understanding of ourselves, and connect us more deeply with the world around us. Whether you're curious about the psychedelic experience, or seeking insights on how these substances may be applied therapeutically, we invite you to tune in and explore the possibilities with us.
Links to published studies:
Ross, S. Bossis, A. Guss J. Agin-Liebes, G. Malone, T. Cohen B. Mennenga, S. E. Belser, A. Kalliontzi, K. Babb, J. Su, Z. Corby, P. Schmidt, B. L. (2016) Rapid and sustained symptom reduction following psilocybin treatment for anxiety and depression in patients with life-threatening cancer: a randomized controlled trial. Journal of Psychopharmacology 30(12) 1165-1180 DOI: 10.1177/0269881116675512 http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0269881116675512
McRae, M. (2017, July 8) Research Shows Magic Mushrooms Can Offer Real Benefits in Depression Therapy. Science Alert. Retrieved from https://www.sciencealert.com/therapy-for-depression-gets-a-significant-boost-when-combined-with-psilocybin
Schiffman, R. (2016, December 1) Psilocybin: A Journey Beyond the Fear of Death? Scientific American. Retrieved from https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/psilocybin-a-journey-beyond-the-fear-of-death/
Vollenweider, F.X. Kometer, M. (2010, September) The neurobiology of psychedelic drugs: implications for the treatment of mood disorders. Nature Reviews: Neuroscience. 11(9) 642-651. Retrieved from http://www.biblioteca.cij.gob.mx/Archivos/Materiales_de_consulta/Drogas_de_Abuso/Articulos/neurobilogypsychedelicdrugs.pdf
Griffiths, R. R. Johnson, M.W. Carducci, M.A. Umbricht, A. Richards W.A. Richards B.D. Cosimano M.P. Klinedinst M.A. (2016) Psilocybin produces substantial and sustained decreases in depression and anxiety in patients with life-threatening cancer: A randomized double-blind trial. Journal of Psychopharmacology 30(12) 1181-1197 DOI: 10.1177/0269881116675513 http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0269881116675513
All right, and we're back with another episode of the podcast. In this Kirs, and I talk about psychedelics, the benefits. We'll go into some studies And even we go into the set and setting and you know, if you are interested in trying out the psychedelic experience for yourself, so sit back and enjoy the show. Be the machine Out, good dogs or assholes, man, all right. All right, we're live. We're going to go live now. We're good. Fuck you Ready. Okay, we're live with another fucking episode, number two baby Awesome podcast. So anything cool happen over the last few weeks.
Speaker 2:Since the last time we uh, that one took concert. That's about it. Would you go see? bad omens was the headliner. It was fucking awesome Metal Dude they were. They were badass, that's metal.
Speaker 1:Fuck yeah, like we were talking about this before we started recording. My last concert was dying fetus. White chapel, revocation um spite, which is like this gnarly intense hardcore band like just In your face. Violent Like the dude was all about uh Mosh and being violent in the mosh pit, like it was an intense. So Fallujah played, but like we were talking about the whole drive home, i was like I couldn't hear shit.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, your fucking death was was awful. They had this shit turn up loud, this, this show. I see my first wall of death. I tell you that, yeah, i've never seen one before. I've seen circle.
Speaker 1:Where did you go?
Speaker 2:I went to Memphis man, okay, memphis, yeah, it was a, it was mingle wood hall, dude. They fucking small venue like all standing like nice And, dude, they opened up that fucking wall of death right beside me. It was insane, dude, did you get involved? I had Amber with me.
Speaker 1:I didn't want to lose her So I got to observe I don't blame you Letting it take part in it. Here's the thing about I love metal But I just and Mosh is cool and everything. But then there was a time where Moshing was just literally kind of like head banging, kind of maybe shoving. Where now, i don't know, it's weird, everyone's like kicking and punching and like they take cause that was the thing they did in like hardcore shows, like they were always spin, kicking and like but people would give you room for that. Where now it's like you go to metal shows and it's just people I don't know man, they just they like want to kick and punch and do all this other crazy stuff. And I mean, i guess some people are into that. But if you want to do that, it's like go do martial arts or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you actually want to throw down, why?
Speaker 1:not go to fucking jiu-jitsu man. You're like or something like that, Like I don't really understand, But I don't know. I guess it's the way it is now.
Speaker 2:It's mostly shoving, to be fair. I mean, I think I think Amber actually got kicked at one point. Oh, I couldn't find the fucking guy who did it. I actually didn't know what he looked like. Everything was happening so fast, So this.
Speaker 1:I probably would have been in my early twenties and one of my this was a metal show I went to. So there was a place in Detroit called Harpo's Right And I don't know if it's open now, but so they would have a lot of the hardcore fucking metal shows would go to Harpo's, and the first time I went there I was dating this chick, and so it was me, my younger brother and her. We saw like devil driver in flames, dude, fuck Yeah, man, yeah. And this is back like when devil driver was just kind of coming onto the scene because they used to be cold chamber, does, does, for I think his name is anyway. So we go there and having a good time.
Speaker 1:I don't know where this guy comes totally out of his mind and he starts like choking this chick I was dating, and so we get into a fight and I'm like, but dude, like fish, hook my eyes, so like I ended up having his thumb in my eye and we're tussling in the out of nowhere. This bouncer came and fucking beat this guy's ass and just dragged him off because, like you know, i wasn't, obviously wasn't starting it, and it just turned into absolute fucking chaos. And then, once I was all broke up, we went back to enjoying the show.
Speaker 2:Went to fuck. He just started choking your girlfriend like right off the bat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you know, some people, when, like, they're under the influence of a drug, they just have that stare, that, that blank stare. Yeah, that's what he had. And I was like, oh, this guy's like fucked up, fucked up Yeah. This guy doesn't know what's going on, and so I think he just reached for whatever was close to him and fucking. Yeah, i mean, if it happened now, i probably would have just like hip tossed him or something, send his ass to arm bar and snap his arm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, bounce his head off the floor like a basketball.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you know fucking jujitsu. So okay, so last week we talked about dreams, but as we were talking about dreams, psychedelics kept getting brought up. Because dreams and I think dreams and psychedelics are like a perfect companion, because when you're under a psychedelic experience, it's like you are having that waking dream experience. And for those who've never had it, and you know, it's an incredibly hard thing to describe when you go into a psychedelic journey, because and that's the same way it is with dreams I had someone reach out, which which is you know, we read that that, that that dreams and psychedelics, they go so well together And a lot of people want to know about psychedelics. We were taught So before we started recording. We were talking about the map, the messenger, right For psychedelics, and why, i think, for for so many years people have been kind of turned off? because for so long psychedelics have always been associated with like the fucking hippies hippie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely Like the hippie community, and you know they've kind of dominated it because, you know, in the sixties, that is that's the culture that embraced psychedelics And they just started calling them hippies. So I think, unfortunately, you know, a lot of people got this negative connotation of what psychedelics are aren't just based on. You know, these people who were like, yeah, man, just work, just vibing, and like, when they would describe the experience they would just use these very esoteric terms and just shit, like yeah, and like it's always sounded very woo and just like, you know, crazy man, yeah, And like it's easy to dismiss that. But I think what we're seeing now is we're seeing messengers who are not hippies.
Speaker 1:Do you know what Michael Pollan is? I don't. So Michael Pollan is, i guess he would be considered a journalist, but he's usually. He's written a lot of books. He's a mainstream guy. He's been on a lot of mainstream talk shows, very kind of square looking, and I want to say he wrote books about like food, right Food and traveling and food and stuff like that, and so this probably was like six or seven years ago. He, he dived into the world of psychedelics And he, i would say like he's been one of.
Speaker 1:He's been one of the few people who has successfully connected the world of psychedelics with the mainstream, and I think that's what needs to happen. So when people like me you know I'm a combat vet, definitely not a hippie, i'm well spoken, i do my research. So when people like us talk about psychedelics, i think people listen more because they're like Oh, this, they're explaining it in terms that I that makes sense, like there's science behind what they're saying too, and they're like backing up what they're saying. And I think I think that we're that's the change we're seeing. I mean, i think I think younger generations also like are you considered Gen Z or millennial? What do you consider 98?
Speaker 2:I don't even fucking know what class I fall in man.
Speaker 1:I think you'd be a Gen Z year. Don't call me that, sorry man, it's not an insult.
Speaker 2:It's not an insult.
Speaker 1:Look, it's just. It's just like that's how we chop each other up into like social groups. It's like you're a boomer, i can't talk to you And it's like, okay, boomer, okay, boomer, I think I'm a millennial.
Speaker 1:Technically I'm like I'm like on the cusp Cause I was born in eight, i was born in December of 81. And I guess it depends on who you ask, who's a fucking millennial? So I think I'm a millennial, but anyway, i think it starts with the Gen X and and forward, where our generations don't really see the problem with psychedelics, like you know, i think, for all of our faults as generations as others will point out like I think we tend to be a little more up of minded, right, and I think we're living at a time now, with technology, this like fucking, just absolute deluge of information that we're bombarded with every day has caused people to become really depressed because now, like, we compare ourselves with these people online who live these very textbook, fucking awesome lives They look great, you know like they're, which is mostly bullshit, but it's hard to know what's real and not. So I think we're seeing a lot more people feeling isolated and depressed And I mean, let's be honest, man, pharmaceuticals are not work, they're not effect. I mean they might be effective for some people, but, like who wants to have to take a drug their entire life? I don't think people want to have to take something their whole fucking life And I think that's kind of like this turning point for psychedelics, like. So I think it's really awesome time to be alive right now because of psychedelics and because it's entering like the mainstream discussion.
Speaker 1:I want to say right now what Oregon and Colorado are two states that have and we'll double check this, but I believe they've decriminalized it all together, because I know, in my at least in Colorado, they're doing a ton of research with MDMA, psilocybin, on combat vets And it's just an overwhelming majority of combat vets have had very positive experiences. So what they'll do is they'll take what's called resistant or I was sort of looking for like resistant to like traditional forms of therapy which I probably would have been considered. So those are always the ideal candidates for this kind of psychedelic treatment and almost every fucking time you get these very positive results with psychedelics. So I want to start. I got we got a couple of things here I'm going to start reading from.
Speaker 1:So this excerpt I'm going to read comes from the psychedelic experience, a manual that was written by Timothy Leary, ralph Menser and Richard Alpert. So here's I asked you earlier if you knew Timothy Leary was and you didn't know. So Timothy Leary was a psychologist out of Harvard Actually, all these guys worked out of Harvard And Richard Alpert would eventually become Ram Dass And Ram Dass was a guru, right. So he had these crazy psychedelic experiences And he, he got what he needed from him and he never touched psychedelics again because he then learned how to get into that transcendental state through meditation. He got into like Buddhism, hinduism, stuff like that, timothy Leary. He became sort of like Hmm, what's the word? he started out with really good intentions and he became this very public figure of psychedelics And but the problem was is he went way overboard with it and he kind of became a character caricature of himself. So he became really easy to dismiss, like oh, this guy's just gone fucking crazy. So that kind of hurt psychedelics, right. And so anyway, i want to read an excerpt from the opening chapter because I kind of want to talk about the psychedelic experience, like what to expect, and then we can kind of go into some of the actual science or what, yeah, yeah, the science, like we've got some studies here we were talking about before the beginning that will kind of go over, just to just to let all of you know that like this isn't just bullshit, it's not stuff we're pulling out of our ass. This is stuff that's being seriously studied by serious institutions, by serious scientists and researchers. So okay, here we go.
Speaker 1:A psychedelic experience is a journey to new realms of consciousness. The scope and content of the experience is limitless, but its characteristic features are the transcendence of verbal concepts, of space, time dimensions, and of the ego or identity. Such experiences of enlarged consciousness can occur in a variety of ways Sensory deprivation, yoga exercises, discipline, meditation, religious or aesthetic ecstasy, or spontaneously. Most recently, they have become available to anyone through the ingestion of psychedelic drugs such as LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, dmt. Of course, the drug does not produce the transcendent experience. It merely acts as a chemical key. It opens the mind, freeze the nervous system of its ordinary patterns and structures. The nature of the experience depends almost entirely on set and setting. So set and setting right. We were talking about that before.
Speaker 1:Now, what's interesting in there is everything that he writes about. Let me go back and open it back. Up is yes, so when you're in that psychedelic state, right, you like. Your brain is no longer confined to it's normal patterns. So, like when we're conscious, when we're not under the influence of psychedelics, our amygdala is making sure that we are experiencing reality in a way that doesn't make us go crazy, or else we'd be getting all this input right. That'd be like Oh my God, i can't figure out any of the stuff And that kind of like psychedelics seem to open up that pathway And you know, because they stayed in there, there's other ways to achieve that kind of like Ultra perception.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ultra perception, expanded consciousness, you know you can, you can meditate, but then, like, you can get direct access through psychedelics, right, And like, suddenly you're having the same mystic experience as a yogi who's trained for fucking their whole life to meditate themselves into that state. And so you know, you're with like psychedelics. You're right there, man, like 30 minutes in you are, you are into that experience. It's funny because so I didn't really thought about psychedelics most of my life. So what really like tripped off my whole like path into wanting to know more about psychedelics.
Speaker 1:So, like, i got out of the Marine Corps at the end of 2013, right, so my self, max wife, we, we get to Missouri, find a place, we move and get settled in. Well, she was, you know, she's a hippie And she wanted to tie into her frickin hippie people and whatever. And so I was like, okay, you know. I was like, yeah, i fine, you know, but you know, i understand, i'm like, barely, you're out of the Marine Corps And we get invited to go to this music festival, bird bird fest in Arkansas. It's in Ozark, in the Ozark National Forest, at a place called the bird bird Adventure Center. Yeah, yeah, well. So I was like, okay, let's, let's do that, let's go. So I didn't know to expect. You know, i get there and there's like fucking thousands of people at the show And it's a camp, so we're going to be camping there for the night and I'm like I'm still very marine, like I'm fucking hostile, like I'm not hostile, but I'm tense. I'm surrounded by all these people. I don't know Like I was literally in a combat zone just not less than two years before And I'm kind of thinking there's gonna be fights. You know, like I have all these weird things going through my head.
Speaker 1:So, as the day progresses into the evening, this fucking guy comes around and he's selling mushrooms. So we're like, all right, man, let's fucking get mushrooms. And I didn't think about it, so I ate mine, and I was like All right, whatever. So, as, as, as it's, the time is progressing I think it was about 30 minutes in like I feel it hit me And when mushrooms first hit you, if, like, you're not used to it, so like it'll have some weird physical effects, like your neck will tighten up and like you kind of like like your jaw kind of tightens up a little bit, and so this is happening, but I'm trying to play it off. I'm like cool, cool, don't freak out like because? so in the initial stages of a psychedelic experience, there's turbulence And it's it's when they initially hit right. They shut everything down in your brain. That's where most people freak out, right?
Speaker 2:That's where we talked about last year. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So people tend to freak out because it's in that first 30 to 40 minutes where all of a sudden they're just getting all this sensory input And you, i guess you feel like you're dying. I don't know why, but it's almost universally felt like I'm dying, like, oh my God, i'm dying. You're not, obviously, but you kind of have to just work through that and once you work through that turbulence, you just you blast off into this really, really cool space. And so I got through that And just as I passed that everyone decided because we were like a group of friends Everyone decided that it was time to go up and watch, watch the music, because you know that a bunch of bands are playing, and I remember this like pretty distinctly. So we start walking up this path and it's this really wide dirt road path going up to the stage. And we're walking up this path and there's like there's like hundreds of people And you know these guys and girls are waving like banners and colorful lights. And I remember like my perception of all was just very slow, like it was like this slow wave of motion, and I just remember thinking how beautiful it was and how amazing it was. It's like I could almost see the energy of everyone there.
Speaker 1:And the crazy thing was is again remember, like I'm like just out of the Marine Corps, i'm still in this very kind of like hostile mindset and people were just coming up to me and hugging me And I never once felt threatened. And I was. I was having a really good time. Like this crust had busted. That I didn't even really understand was there because I'd been a rehab 30 day intense inpatient rehab, counseling, cpt, you know, cognitive processing therapy, like all this shit I've gone through. And in that moment I just remember thinking, holy shit, i found it like what is this? And it was. It was psilocybin, mushrooms, man, it was psychedelics And as that night continued, it was like it was one of the most profound experiences because it started this journey into wanting to understand more about what I just went through.
Speaker 1:I'm like, i'm like, how, how, how can I have one dose of a mushroom like this and have this incredibly positive outcome that started me on my pathway to writing, going back to school, going like being more compassionate? So this is, this is fucked up right. So before this, i was one of those guys like I would do fucked up shit driving on the road like they're like dead animals and I would intentionally just run them over again to fuck with my ex like, and it was fucking awful right, it's terrible. I know I got a minute though, like because and I was kind of detached from that compassion That one fucking experience, dude, it changed all of that like, not even a little like a complete 180, to where you just you suddenly see life as something that is very like sacred, because you know, when you're in the military, especially like a combat arms, especially in the Marine Corps, infantry, they do what they can to train that out of you like, and then you go to combat and you're like these people are not people, these aren't humans, these are fucking things that I'm killing because they want to kill me. And so it's like it's, it's not, that's not easy to shed off, that's not an easy. That's why so many guys get out of the Marine, the military, and ultimately commit suicide because, like, you're still wrestling with them, that mentality, but then you're suddenly you're surrounded by civilians who have no concept of what violence is, let alone combat, and so you feel very isolated And after this experience I just I knew, i knew I'd found that thing, and it was suicide of mushrooms, man.
Speaker 1:So I began this journey of trying to find out, like, why it worked, why, you know, why aren't, why isn't this being more widespread?
Speaker 1:we used, like what the fuck's going on in our society, that there's, there's a natural that you can get almost anywhere in nature I can have, and it can leave like such profound effects, you know, and, and so, yeah, it started me on this whole pathway into psychedelics. And then I had subsequent experiences, and each experience and it was like you learn something new about you, something else You can dive into like your past, and you don't really have any feeling about it. Right, it's, it's really interesting. So You know, like I said, i started doing some, some more research on it, and so we actually have a couple of studies here. Maybe you should bring these up right now, sure man, just to dive into it. Actually, before we dive into the studies, let me see here, maybe we should Kind of stay along with the experience, because now you're a nurse, oh yeah, right, so I mean, at any point along in your, your studies and journeys, like, do they even ever touch on anything like this?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, it's a schedule one narcotic, that's it. That's, that's it. No, dude. I mean they talked about, obviously, alternative medicines were brought up And a lot of times it was just the basics of like, ok, if they want to take this herb, then it's going to interact with this, like it was basically just medication.
Speaker 1:So it was like mechanistic in nature, like the mechanics of it, st John's Award interacts with this medicine.
Speaker 2:You know, don't make them, don't let them take that together. Like it was pretty simple, and I'm going to go ahead and get this out of the way. Since I am considered a licensed nurse, i'm going to say I don't condone the use of, you know, narcotics, you know, but let's, let's fucking talk about it anyway. Yeah, let's fucking go.
Speaker 1:Well, and it's funny because I think it's more and more, medical professionals are learning, you know, because there's a lot, there's a lot of things like doctors don't learn, and there's a lot of things nurses just don't learn. And I mean it's unfortunate And I get it, because there's just so much, there's so much to know, but it's a shame that psychedelics aren't taken more serious like that. I think it is now like you have. You have organizations like MAPS, the multi, multi disciplinary association of psychedelic studies I think that's what it stands for. But like they're an organization full of scientists and researchers and you know, and they've been fighting this fight for a good long time. But MAPS kind of worries me because like I feel like they're trying to they're trying to like what sort of look for? they're trying to pharmaceuticalize psychedelics, like you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like they're not going to let you have it unless they can make money off of it.
Speaker 1:Man Right, That's kind of the right, like they're trying to isolate the components and make something, and it's like, why don't like? that's the thing always cracks me up about. That is like you don't need to isolate anything. Like you need to eat the fucking mushroom, you got to have everything that's in it, because that's you know. Everything in that works together, you know. But so that's too bad that they don't talk about it. But I guess I understand why. Because it's just, even though there's an ungodly amount, of research.
Speaker 2:Well, do you ever think farmers may be afraid of it because it is effective?
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean yes, because here's the thing. So most antidepressants are.
Speaker 2:SSRIs Right Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors Yes.
Speaker 1:But they sometimes take weeks to take effect. Oh yeah, yet with one high dose of psilocybin, you it's immediate. It's immediate and noticeable. And so the question is, why, like why, do pharmaceuticals take so long to take effect? It's probably because they're not hitting the spots they're supposed to be hitting, where psilocybin is, and in almost all psychedelic LSD, psilocybin, mdma I don't know if it's a, i guess it's an. I don't know if it's in a hallucinogen, though, but you know ecstasy Not, but it does.
Speaker 2:You know they are using it in research with positive effects, especially with, like, combat vets, and I'm not going to actually understand a whole lot about it, but I know like obviously, the concept of half lives and like how medication gets integrated into your system Like some drugs do take a longer time to reach that chemical balance that they are hoping to get. So that's probably the main cause. Now am I saying they're all effective? No, i see countless people on antidepressants who are fucking depressed.
Speaker 1:And sometimes it makes it worse.
Speaker 2:It does have that possible side effect.
Speaker 1:Yes, which is crazy because and then you look at psilocybin and classic psychedelics which have an instantaneous effect on our brain, you know, and it's like literally creating these new neural pathways And that you know where. Sometimes, you know, with these pharmaceutical drugs they take a I don't know a bit longer And sometimes they don't produce the results you want And there have been cases where people get on antidepressants and then they commit suicide. Like it's crazy, like where, with psychedelics, almost every time someone has a very intense psychedelic experience. They it's almost universal. Like they see life in a different way, they appreciate their life in a different way, they appreciate people in a different way, like it's like this holistic thing that you experience with psychedelics.
Speaker 1:Now here's a little. I got some little handy dandy stuff here. So everything that I read or reference, i'm going to make sure to put a link in the show description, so anybody who wants to do their own research on this, they will have access to everything. We've talked about The studies if you want to look over the studies or anything like that. So this comes from a volunweter and cometer And they wrote that in. Well, it'll be in the show notes, but this is what they said about psychedelic research. By 1965, there were more than 1000 published clinical studies that reported promising therapeutic effects in over 40,000 subjects. Lsd, psilocybin and, sporadically, ketamine have been reported to have therapeutic effects on patients with anxiety and obsessive compulsive disorders, depression, sexual dysfunction and alcohol addiction And to relieve pain and anxiety in patients with terminal cancer. That's fucking insane. So by 1965, they had already had like over 1000 studies that said, hey, this is safe and effective for people to use And this is really good. But what do they do, they fucking? they put it as a schedule one.
Speaker 2:But wait, matt, for those who don't know what's the risk of addiction.
Speaker 1:Very little. It's like it's very little. Actually there's no cases of anyone being addicted to psychedelics. It's too intense, like here's the thing You go through a psychedelic experience You're most people don't want to have that again. You know, even if it's a good trip, it's very taxing on the brain, man. It's like it's such an intense experience.
Speaker 1:Now I will say this I don't want to be, i don't want to be completely biased. So I learned this when I was hanging out with this hippie crowd. Right, there are people that do abuse it and they use it completely wrong. Like I was around people that are doing like 20 hits of acid at one time And it's like Jesus Christ, right, it's like why, why the fuck are you doing that? Like it never made sense to me, but I realized these people were just, they weren't using psychedelics for, like, the reasons I would use them, you know, because when I have my own little psychedelic experience, i like I make a whole day of it, all right.
Speaker 1:So there's a really interesting book. It's called The Psychedelic Explorers Guide, written by Dr James Fadiman, and basically it's a book for people who want to kind of have a better understanding of the experience of tripping, and it's also a good book for people to read who want to be like responsible guides. Because remember last last show I told you like it if you do psychedelics with like people, you have to be around people you truly trust. You can't be around people that will fuck with you because it'll ruin the experience And that's why you're set in. Setting are so important And that's what this book talks about So like. So I'm referencing The Psychedelic Explorers Guide right now.
Speaker 1:So, set the set is the preparation for your session, right Like. So you decide okay, i'm going to have, i'm going to have this psychedelic experience. So like, a day beforehand you prep, like you kind of get into the mind space. And then here this is what he says ideally on the first day, stay quiet and unhurried, reserve time for self reflection, spending a portion of the preparation day in nature if you can be outside. Set aside the second day all day for the session.
Speaker 1:So like, say, you're going to trip on a Saturday, okay, now, maybe on that Friday. You just kind of detach yourself from everything, you think about it, you center yourself, get into a good headspace, and that's kind of what he's saying. I get, everyone is not going to do that And that's fine. So, like say, it's the same day, you do the same thing, maybe just on a Saturday. You're like, okay, i got nothing going on, i'm going to have this experience. So I'm going to spend the first half of the day, i'm going to hang out, i'm just going to, I'm going to no electronics, none of that. Don't do anything that's going to rattle your mind up or influence you. Watch the news, dude. Don't watch this Fucking. Don't go on social media. Like, don't do any of that shit.
Speaker 1:Like, i think it helps to see the psychedelic experience as something spiritual, which is weird for me Because I'm not a spiritual person. But when it comes to psychedelics, it is a spiritual experience. It's as close to, i think, anybody will ever have to, a spiritual experience. So, like a Christian, if they have a psychedelic experience, they're going to probably see Jesus, they're probably going to feel closer to their, to that you know. Or for a Muslim does it? or you know a Jewish person, and I think that's a good thing.
Speaker 1:I think that's the thing with psychedelics. We're talking about people who are always like I'm afraid to lose control And it's like well, but what are you really controlling right now? I think you know, pop culture and media has really painted psychedelics in this really weird light because of fucking you know the way that people are, you know they're not going to be able to see the light. It's really painted psychedelics in this really weird light because of fucking hippies. Because there's this like people think that you take psychedelics, you're going to go crazy, which is bullshit. There's and we'll get into those studies that discuss that, why it is bullshit. But I think a lot of people see or hear second hand or third hand accounts of people's psychedelic experiences And they're like, oh, i don't want to do that. I don't want to lose control. Like that's the num I promise you. You ask a person why they've never tried it And that's almost the same response you'll get from every fucking person. I don't want to lose control.
Speaker 2:But it's like They don't go home and drink a whole fucking dirty pack and be blackout.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they're pissing in their pants or doing something, something crazy, and it's like you've lost dude, you've lost control. Or you smoke cigarettes or you drink and coffee, and it's like you know you drink too much coffee. You're going to be fucking jittery And like, well, you've lost control, right Shaking while I beat my wife, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it's like it's funny, like the reasonings wipe people like they don't want to lose control And it's like, okay, question one, what do you think you're controlling? The second question is is losing control a bad thing?
Speaker 2:I think control is a perception in the beginning.
Speaker 1:Yes, I mean so 100% agree with it because, yeah, it's like when people say they want, they're afraid to lose control. It's like, well, i mean like that, i want to ask them, but I don't want to, i don't want to be that guy, because I kind of get what they're saying Right.
Speaker 2:They're just saying they're scared, like, and that's okay because Are they afraid of what they'll say or what they'll do once they're in that state? That's a good question.
Speaker 1:I mean, i think I think a lot of people think they're going to go crazy.
Speaker 2:Because I feel like your, your lumping psychedelics together, but I feel like, based on what I've heard about mushrooms, what I've heard about others, I think you'd be a lot more at risk with stuff like acid or Well maybe.
Speaker 1:But see, when I say classic psychedelic I'm, i'm mescaline. Lsd, psilocybin because LSD and psilocybin it's the same pathways, the chemicals are different but like it's the same pathway, lsd, yes, is probably going to be way more intense. I've never done LSD Like I've microdosed it and Yeah, So I get to elaborate on that at all. Yeah, so, like this was years ago I was living at the old other house that I was cutting. So I'd gotten a tab of LSD and I was just like, okay, i'm going to microdose this, i'm going to. You know, i got a little blotter, little square piece of paper and they just drip and on there.
Speaker 1:So I cut it into pieces and this, it was like a fall day, beautiful. And I'm like, okay, i'm going to, i'm going to, i cut it up. I'm like I'm going to put this. So I put on my tongue and just let it. I just said I forgot about it, swallowed it, whatever. So I go outside, get my headphones on, like I started cutting my, you know, i start cutting firewood. I get like 45 minutes into it and I fucking stop what I'm doing Cause I've suddenly kind of feel weird and I put my chainsaw down and I look up at the sky and I'm like dude, i'm like the sky is so fucking blue, like it's so colorful, i'm like what the fuck is going on? And then it hit me. I was like, i'm like I did more than a microdose.
Speaker 2:So you took LSD in, your first thought was like yelling, pick up this fucking chainsaw, Like that was your well it was like I'll do the microdose.
Speaker 1:I didn't really think anything was going to happen. You know, i'm like, cause I had experienced with, i had experienced or experimented with, microdosing mushrooms, so I'd get those little, those double zero vegetarian capsules, crush up some mushrooms and pack them in there. So it was roughly 500 milligrams of psilocybin in a capsule. I'd pop one and I didn't feel shit. So I'm like I'm thinking that's the same thing that's going to happen with this little, this teeny little, fucking tiny little tab of acid that I cut up and it must have been a part of it where a whole lot of the LSD hit Cause. For the next two hours I just laid on my grass, stared up at the sky with my at the time I had this Anatolian shepherd, heathen, and he was just laying there right with me And I was like I was looking up the clouds and I'm like the clouds are fractals, they're fractal patterns, they just keep going And I'm like your dog's talking, like yes yes, they are son.
Speaker 2:Well, it was a really cool experience, yeah.
Speaker 1:But. But so I can't say I've really had a full on LSD experience but I'm like I do from from when I've heard it's a lot more intense. Like you get more with LSD. I guess, from what I've been told, you get more of the, the visual right Where someone's like I'm a, i'm a demon, and like you see him as a demon, like where mushrooms it's not, i think it's. I guess it'd be more of a body high, um, you know, with, with the psilocybin you're, it's going to fuck with your, your perception. Like when I'm, when I'm tripping, like everything that's going to be, everything kind of looks wavy. It looks wavy, like things are breathing. Yes, yeah, it looks like things are breathing and wavy and uh, and I've seen like fingerprint patterns.
Speaker 1:At one point in one of my trips I was a hawk flying over, like all these traumas in my past, and it was like in that trip I was so high above it. Like in my head I'm thinking, why does this bother me? Right, and that's the key, because when you come out of these trips like that stays with, that doesn't go away, like it's. I guess when you're you're, you're in that psychedelic state, you're, your conscious mind and your subconscious mind are like acting together And suddenly you're aware of your subconscious and it's aware of you and everything's aware of everything. So there's no barrier, like all on the reality, like it's all open and you see it all and you feel it all and you experience it all.
Speaker 1:And when you come out of it you're like dude, what just happened? Like, but it stays with you, right? You know, like after my initial intense experiences even let me see, even eight years later there's that that experience was so profound, like much of that has stuck with me, especially with like compassion and you know, like being open and stuff like that, like I never would have been that way without psychedelics. So they just need to fucking legalize it All, right, i mean, let's just be honest. More on the story, yeah, okay, so that's so. The set is like kind of preparing yourself for that experience. What do you want?
Speaker 2:to talk about I know you've mentioned this quite a bit The other people you're around. do you want to go into that before we do the study? Well, that's going to be the setting.
Speaker 1:Okay, absolutely. So here we go. So, before you trip like, this is something else he talks about as part of your set, and again, this comes from the psychedelic explorers guide. He says discussing the range of possible experiences in advance and able the session itself to go more smoothly. So if you're somebody who's interested in doing psychedelics, it's important to then kind of understand what you might get yourself into, because I think that's a lot of times that will trip people up is they've never tried it And they have no sort of like, no basis on what like they're about to get into. But it's funny because if they had, if they had a little inkling of what, it probably helped ease some of that anxiety that people get when it hits. So it continues whether you're a novice or an experienced voyager, internal experiences that may be entirely novel for you may occur. So cascading geometric forms and colors, which usually so that's, you'll see that shit like, especially with, like psilocybin and LSD.
Speaker 1:Alteration of felt time, which is for sure, because I like to, i'm a night tripper, i love the night, like the night is mine, like I don't like tripping in the daytime.
Speaker 1:You guys go outside at night, yeah, oh, absolutely, especially if it's a full moon. I'll just sit out there the whole time and just, i'll probably look like a crazy psych ward patient because I'm just like this is beautiful, i'm crying and shit, but well, anyways, like, hours will go by and I'll just sit out there. And I'll just sit out there and hours will go by and I'll know I'd like it'll feel like minutes. You know, i'll start say, like, i take my dose at eight o'clock, it'll be three in the morning and I'm like, what, like, what, like, wow, it's already three, like, and then I get two hours of sleep and I feel amazing the next day I wake up. So there's this sort of alteration of time, finding yourself in a different reality, as if you'd lived or are living in another time or place. I've never had anything like that. I imagine, though, you probably could with like like really high doses or what.
Speaker 1:Well, i've done nine grams That's my highest and but I never felt like I was in some other time or place. You know what? I should take that back because I was a hawk. So, yeah, i will. Yeah, you're in different realities, like absolutely, so I'll just walk all that back.
Speaker 1:I mean, in one of my intense trips I was a hawk flying over my fucking shit and just flying over it like like it was nothing, and also having that internal dialogue of like why did this stuff bother me before You know?
Speaker 1:and it was like the same time I had a trip when I realized I needed to start writing. Like, even though I had dabbled with writing throughout my life, i never once like took it serious, just like whatever dude, people are just telling me you should write. So then I have this crazy psychedelic experience and it just hit me like a fucking brick wall of I need to start writing. And I never stopped And I just so I can't tell you why, but like it's just one of those things that psychedelics will do, just, it'll get, it'll alter everything about how you think, about your reality and all that good stuff. So, yeah, you could find yourself in a different reality, or if you've lived in another time and place, that could happen, being in a different body of either sex. I've never had that, but I imagined, like with the DMT or something or like LSD, like that'd be a very very tense.
Speaker 2:You're telling me if I took one of those drugs I could potentially look down and see that I had tits.
Speaker 1:You're telling me that? No, i don't think so, i'm fucking this shit's terrible.
Speaker 1:Damn, i turned into a woman. Fuck Damn. Becoming an animal, plant or microorganism becoming animal. There you go, there you go. That was a hawk, and I've heard other people have that kind of experience, where it wasn't a hawk but they were like an animal or something, which I think that's really interesting, i just. I think that shows our connection with nature. You know, take away, take away our modern society And we are the same right, like we've. I mean, we're softer now but like, essentially, we still have our caveman brains and we're still very like and it turned the water and electricity off into happens, Right Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we love a lot of killing, a lot of bashing of skulls and but, but. But there will be. It'll even out at some point like the chaos won't sue. But then it's like a tsunami right, that wave comes in, fucking chaos, chaos, chaos. And then it recedes back and then everything slowly rebuilds. Experience your own birth. That's something else that you possibly the fuck. Yeah, i've heard of people having that, but it seems like you'd have to have like a real high nose of LSD or DMT or something Cause again. I've had nine grams of mushrooms. That's my highest dose And that's a pretty fucking high dose, and I never it was really intense.
Speaker 2:There's almost two intense, but I never like so it's like one of the highest doses you've ever heard of.
Speaker 1:I think Paul Stamets. Paul Stamets is a a mycologist and he's a big proponent of of psychedelics. He's got a really good documentary called Fantastic Fungi on Netflix Really really good. Michael Pollins on it. I want to say he did like 12 or fit Maybe he did like 12 or 15 or 20 something. They did a super high dose. Yeah, he said he ended up in a tree and what? Yeah, yeah, he said he had a super intense experience. So I would imagine Jesus. Yeah, okay, let me see here. Now I want to get onto the setting. Okay, let me, let me go over here. I'm on the Kindle. I fucking hate the Kindle. I hate it, dude.
Speaker 2:Fuck you Amazon.
Speaker 1:Fuck you, amazon. So let's go to setting here, because setting is what you mentioned earlier about having the right people.
Speaker 2:I know you've you've hard done that quite a bit.
Speaker 1:So I was like I don't want you pass that up You know, okay Again.
Speaker 1:So this is for people who are interested in psychedelics. Maybe you want to have that experience and you don't know who to talk to, right? So we just went over set right. Sets like your mindset going into the trip, right? Let's summarize that So set. So set and setting are incredibly important for the psychedelic experience. So the set will be your intentions going to the experience, understanding what you might experience and things like that.
Speaker 1:The setting is your physical environment. So a median environment. Let me see here. All that is necessary for a safe journey with infinite possibilities is an uncluttered, comfortable room with a couch or bed on which the Voyager can rest. A comfortable chair for the guide If you have a guide with you, which isn't a bad idea, but again, that guide has to be someone who understands what the psychedelic. It can't just be like your bro And then he starts tripping, he starts fucking with you, like that's not it, like that ain't it, that's a no go. So a chair for your guide and easy access to a bathroom, which I guess, depending on the psychedelic, i've never had, like, any issues with that.
Speaker 2:It never mess with you like, like your movement or anything.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, having a variety of soft pills and blankets on hand is usually a good idea, and that's true because some people get really cold. It's weird Like you're, because, again you gotta remember, your body is also physically reacting Right To like with mushrooms, like you will have. A lot of times when I'm under a psilocybin experience I get weird like nasal stuff going like. I always feel like I have to go, like like that, you know, yeah, so it goes away. It's like it's draining. Yeah, it feels like it's draining. Okay, it's not, but it feels like it. But it you just that's something you have to kind of like deal with, you know, and it's minimal, it's not not that bad.
Speaker 1:So, because some people can get cold, right. So blankets and having, look, the key is being comfortable, right, you want to. You just want to be in a comfortable environment. And again, you know, a lot of people take psychedelics at concerts and that's cool. I had a great time. I had a great time with my first experience at a concert, but again, it's, it's about being around the right people, the right environment.
Speaker 2:See, you know, take that. you were at a hippie concert with very chill music. Now picture you did that, but you were seeing dying fetus and white chapel People are fucking punching each other. I don't know if I'd like yeah, they would probably ruin it.
Speaker 1:They would probably ruin it. What would that have done for you? anything, i don't know. I don't. That's a good question, because when you are deep in the throes of a psychedelic experience, you're very easily influenced manipulated, i guess, but you're very easily influenced. That's why, when people are tripping and someone's like, oh my God, you're fucking you turning into a bug, like they believe it. It dude, you believe it, it's fucking. That's just because, like again, your brain's defense mechanisms are all shut down, so it's like you don't have any defense against that. So you're freaking out And that's a bad person to be around. It just so happened to be. I was with good people that you help, really helped the experience along, and then everyone else was tripping. So it was like everyone was just kind of like love and yay, this is really cool. And I don't know, at a metal show, yeah, i don't think that's not the vibe in. I don't think it's not for me, as I fucking love metal.
Speaker 1:It's my life but, I don't for for the psychedelic experience. It's too sacred to be in a chaotic environment, like for me. Anyway, some people might like it. That's totally cool. If that's a journey you can get into, that's okay. So the room should also have some kind of music system. So I think this is really important. Music during your trip is really important.
Speaker 1:I like he talks about having music with no lyrics, but I guess it depends on my mood. I like a mix. I typically will not listen to metal Like what I've driven man, i like listening to more instrumental. There was an album I listened to a lot and it was like it was a lot of Native American type music flute, wind type stuff, just very calming chance stuff like that was like soothing And when you really like, sometimes that music can take you on a journey itself, because I don't know about you. But like when I listen to music just not tripping or anything, i close my eyes and like I can go on a journey listening to the song. Sometimes, yeah, and with psychedelics it's like that times a million, like you're in it, like oh, i'm flying through space right now, like whoa dude, like this is super fucking cool man.
Speaker 2:You don't do any rock at all. It's rare I imagine something trippy like I think of like maybe Intune by Deftone. Do you heard that song? No, oh, it's a good song, man. It's got a really like almost spacey kind of like sound That might work Yeah.
Speaker 1:That might work. There was a band I really liked listening to when I tripped. There was a band called Moonspell and they're a goth metal band And it was this album called Extinction. It came out in 2016. It's just such a good album And that's one I can listen to when I'm tripping, because it's Moonspell does a really good job.
Speaker 1:Like it's not that, it's not death metal. There's, you know, like it's lush, it's got like that lush sound. It's. There's clean, a lot of clean vocals, but it's like that. You ever listen to typo negative? I've heard of them, i've never listened to them. Damn, it's kind of that vibe. Yeah, you know that, that, that deep voice that Peter Steele had. So that's one I can listen to, but no, it's it's usually like instrumental war, like the New Age Scandinavian music, drums and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Let's see, it's better if the room can be insulated from outside sites and sounds, including people's voices, pets and phones. Your goal is to create and maintain a simple environment that supports inner quiet. When in doubt, make the space even simpler. So, it says. Most experienced guides prefer to begin the session indoors with music, so that the voyager's mind is the primary source for what unfolds. So they talk about a guide in here And like I think if it's your first time having a psychedelic experience, i think it's it's worth trying to find like a guide or someone who's done it before who understands what you're about to go through. Yeah, i didn't have. Well, i guess technically I did. You know, i had everyone that was with me So like if anything started happening I could talk to them And but I did like I just kind of went with it, you know, and it was totally cool, like no problems.
Speaker 2:From the sounds of it you kind of valued the solitude of it at this point, i mean well, not that.
Speaker 1:so in that first experience at the concert I I I guess I realized I could have that experience and be cool, right. But yeah, after that, all the subsequent experiences after were like by myself, because I just I think I get more out of it when I'm alone. I get, and I do exactly what he says in this book. I get like an area setup, comfortable area, i make sure I've got the music, i got like a playlist ready to go, headphones, i got like some water ready. So this is funny because so part of my whole set and setting and this kind of contradicts a lot of things. But one of the things I really like to do is like I'll eat, i'll eat the mushrooms And then I'll put on. there's two movies that I always like to start watching and they make no sense, okay. one is Mad Max Fury Road, okay, and the other is Apocalypse Now the Redux. Why, i don't know, because they're so Apocalypse Now. Have you seen it?
Speaker 2:No for France. It's iconic and I haven't seen it. Oh my God.
Speaker 1:So in the beginning, right As the movie opens up, there's like this helicopter, rotor blade sound.
Speaker 2:Oh, and the book. What song is playing? I've heard of the scene doors. This is the end.
Speaker 1:You get the Yeah, yes, so, and Martin Sheen is in a hotel room and he's basically talking about, like how he feels. like he says a line in that when he's back home he feels like he's always in the jungle, but then when he's in the jungle he wants to be back home. So he's like and I remember first hearing that in Psychedelics, it hit me so hard I'm like he just explained the fucking experience of being a combat vet. It's so like contradictory, right. You're like man, i want to be home, but then you're home and you're like I wish I was back in Afghanistan. Then you're in Afghanistan and you're like I want to be back home. And it's like you're caught in between these worlds. So I started watching Apocalypse Now and my trip would hit me and I was just so drawn into like the experience of what Martin Sheen was going through, because Francis Ford Coppola did a. Really I thought.
Speaker 1:I think that movie encapsulates the absurdity of how America fights its wars to a T, like nobody knows what's going on. We lose shit all the time, we're very disorganized And we're fighting these wars that we don't even have to win And that's why we're fucking them up. We're always fucking them up. So that's why I like that movie, because it's got that profound message. But I never finish it because usually I'll go about an hour in and I'm just It hits me. And then Mad Max. I think I like that because the colors are so vivid and it's such a visceral fucking movie I will usually turn it off. You've seen Mad Max for your road, right? Oh my god, bro, what is wrong?
Speaker 2:with you Every time you mention shit. I never see it, I fucking knew it I literally love movies too. Every time I bring it up, i haven't seen it, but both of these are like action movies, violence, yeah. So isn't that kind of counterintuitive to the whole message? Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:But that's what's crazy about it, because you would think that that would have some kind of influence on me to go off and have some fucked up trip. It's actually the opposite And I can't explain why. I'll be honest, i've never really dived into the why of it. But I mean, you make a good point And I know it's contradictory, but I also know that it gets me into this headspace where so in Mad Max not to totally ruin it but there's a scene in there where they're driving through the desert and it's just fucking sandstorm kicks up and it's just engulfs everybody. And then I'll usually turn it off after that because it's such an epic scene. And then I have a great experience.
Speaker 1:I get my music on and I'm like, okay, i got what I needed out of the beginning. So usually I get about an hour into each movie and I'm like cut it off, never watched the ending, not when I'm tripping. No, i don't watch the whole thing, because usually by that point I'm like I'm tripping, i'm like whoa man, like I'm really into it. I turn it off, i give my music on and I just go on this beautiful journey just of self discovery and all this other stuff. So that's your setting. You got to be in a comfortable environment. You got to be with really good people. If you're going to do it with people, they've got to be on the same fucking page. man, like I can't emphasize that enough, i cannot emphasize how important it is to not be around assholes when you're tripping, because they will ruin it. They will fucking ruin your experience. They can bring you back to sobriety And like that's not a fun experience when you're expecting to have like a great time And then all of a sudden you got this friend fucking with you. We have people we've talked to have had that happen. I'm a devil. And next thing you're like, oh my God, this person, it can escalate like that. And so you got to have people who understand that it's going to be really challenging and that you might in the beginning you might kind of freak out a little bit. But again, that freak out period is very, it's very quick And I'd say the majority, i'd say like 99% of the people who end up having challenging trips they let that first 30 minutes like dictate the rest of it.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, they have, because that goes away. Because, like, if I could explain that first 30 minutes it's like turbulence, right. So you eat it. Time goes by and it hits you hard. You're like, oh, you feel that turbulence. You're like, oh, my perception, what the fuck? my reality's changing, like the walls are melting, like my reality is wavy, like what's going on. But then, as long as you can say to yourself, i'm going to be fine, that's it. It's like that's all you need. And if you have someone with you who just will look a big hey, you're going to be okay, that's all you need to hear. Like it's that fucking simple.
Speaker 1:And I think a lot of people, they think they're being cool and they think they're being funny And like I'm just fucking with you, man, and it's like no dude, like that's it. It can really ruin it, and then that person will never want to have that experience again. And so they're missing out on the benefit of having a psychedelic experience, which is why I like to do them by myself, because there is no outer influence, there's nothing. So, like, whatever trip I have is entirely dependent on what's going on with me in my mind. Like you know, if my setting isn't is right and I got the right music and stuff like that, it'll be a good journey. Okay, so we've kind of gone over some of the experience stuff And I want to. We were talking about this before we started the podcast, so there's a pair of studies that I like to talk to people about that really highlights the power of psilocybin specifically psilocybin, but psychedelics.
Speaker 1:So back in 2016, there were a pair of studies out of New York University that basically studied what psilocybin would do for, like terminally or cancer patients, right So like, and they have pretty serious diagnoses. So I'm going to read part of the abstract. For which study is this one? Let me double check here. Okay, roland Griffiths, and he's a big name in psychedelics. This was published in the Journal of Psychopharmacology in 2016. So let's go. Okay, so abstract.
Speaker 1:Cancer patients often develop chronic, clinically significant symptoms of depression and anxiety. Previous studies suggest the psilocybin may decrease depression and anxiety in cancer patients. The effects of psilocybin were studied in 51 cancer patients with life threatening diagnoses and symptoms of depression and or anxiety. So okay. So this study was a randomized double blind crossover trial that investigated the effects of, so one group would get a placebo, like dose of admin B. So this one is the psilocybin. Okay, so this and we'll go to that other study.
Speaker 1:But in this study, the control group was a very so basically they got a micro dose of psilocybin, okay, and then the other, the other group got a high dose of psilocybin and counterbalance sequence. So basically what that means is group A would get the placebo right, group B gets the full dose And then, at week five, group A would then get the high dose and group B would get the low dose, so they would cross over. You know that. So about this is for everyone listening Okay, so what did all? what does all this mean? right? So let's go down a little more. Read some more of this, more of the study, okay, okay, participant staff and community observers rated. So what they did is they had clinicians, so they they use clinical guidelines as well as, like people in their lives to to, you know, establish like, wow, this person's really improved. So they did that as well.
Speaker 1:High dose psilocybin produced large decreases in clinician and self rated measures of depressed mood and anxiety, along with increases in quality of life, life meaning and optimism, and decreases in death anxiety. At six month follow up, these changes were sustained, with about 80% of participants continuing to show clinically significant decreases and depressed mood and anxiety. Participants attributed improvements and attitudes about life, self, mood relationships and spirituality to the high dose experience, with 80 over 80% endorsing moderately or greater increased wellbeing life satisfaction community observer ratings showed corresponding changes. Mystical type psilocybin experience. On session day meditated the effect of psilocybin dose on therapeutic outcomes. That's fucking crazy. Yeah, that's big, that's okay. So you're a nurse? Yes, i mean, is there a drug that has had this kind of obvious?
Speaker 2:I mean like effect right off the bat? No do. My first thought process is like we are literally giving people who are into life care. We are giving them morphine, diluted fentanyl, like we are giving them the hardest fucking shit there is out there. And we're at this point we're accepting, like chemo is not going to kick it Right, like so we're trying to make them comfortable, we're trying to improve their quality of life. So why the fuck would you not try whatever might work?
Speaker 1:Okay, so the last podcast, i brought up my grandpa when he broke his hip, yeah, and he was depressed and he was put on medication which did not help It kind of made him more depressed.
Speaker 2:Well, you talked about I'm going to bring this up because I forgot to mention the first episode you mentioned how there was like a duality between, like, you were at that time experimenting with psilocybin and you were noticing an improvement in your mental health. His was deteriorating on on with his. You know antidepressants. But one thing I forgot to say was dude, you weren't in a fucking nursing home. Fair enough, i do that as a. It's not a hot place to be, you know, for the most people at least.
Speaker 1:You know like yeah but, but I think psilocybin would have still been better.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Why not try it Like? I mean right, right.
Speaker 1:Exactly So. That's, that's Dr Rowland Griffith's study And that's really significant Like when we look at our society and we look at people suffering with, with depression, and it seems like and I don't know if, like, social media and media and news cycle distorts this, but it just it seems like there's an ungodly amount of people right now who are just not doing very good, you know, struggling with mental health, struggling with anxiety.
Speaker 2:Really heard about it during the fucking lockdown. man, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:And so, like you, look at this study and we're going to go over the other one, and these are people who are fucking dying And if they suddenly have this profound experience and it completely alters how they feel about death and their quality of life, like, imagine what that would do to just someone dealing with kind of like generalized depression. They're not dying, but they're just depressed, like. So, combat vets right, combat veterans, i think, is the other reason why psychedelics are being accepted by more mainstream audiences now. And politicians I mean the politicians are just going to use it. They don't give a fuck, they're just going to use it because it'll help them. But you know, combat veterans have been that other trial group that have shown crazy improvements in depression and mood And like I, that's why I like I share my experience openly, because there's a lot of combat vets out there who, who, like they, they get caught in that cycle.
Speaker 1:You know they're on antidepressants, they're not working, they don't really know what to do, sitting at home contemplating Yeah, yeah, and like when they hear other combat vets talk about things like psilocybin and what it's done for them. I think that you know it starts a conversation and it starts that individual down a pathway like, okay, well, let me look into this. Like, if I'm struggling right now and the shit I'm taking right now is not helping, it might be making it worse. Like, let me look into this, because I was, i was taking tracidone, dude, to sleep Or for this. Well, yeah, so they had, they had prescribed it for sleep, but it's an anti psychotic. It's fucking strong It is, and I hated taking it, dude. I fucking hated taking it. I felt detached.
Speaker 2:Really, yes, how many milligrams are you getting? a 90? You remember 150? Holy fucking shit. That's like the highest dose of. I've seen one of the person with the high dose. That's oh, that's standard 150 milligram. Most combat vets that like my yeah, i see like 25 and 50, 100, 750, 150 is like the highest I've seen.
Speaker 1:That's crazy man We got bottles of it, but I have never used, holy shit. So the lowest I've been prescribed is 100, but then they're like, cut the other one in half so you can take 150. 150 was like the minimum dose they would give us, see. so this is.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you're here, because like I wouldn't have known that that was like most doses I see are significant, like quite a bit lower than that for at least my population of people I take care of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, and I fucking hated taking it because I felt like it was altering my brain in like a negative way. It was making me feel more detached, it was making me feel more dull If that makes sense like it felt like I was being plastic wrapped. You know what I mean. Like suddenly I see everything, like I know it's there, but I'm not like experiencing it, i'm not feeling it?
Speaker 2:Are you talking about like around the clock or just like, maybe, the eight to 10 hours? No, no, most of the time.
Speaker 1:Most of the time. You know, even though I took it at, you know, i'd take it at night I mean it's still in my system because I got to take it every night. Yeah, so it's always in my system. So once I did this, i mean I weaned myself off of it and then I told my psych at the VA I'm like I'm not taking this. I'm done Like I'm not taking this.
Speaker 1:And they were actually really cool about it. You know, i'm like, look, dude, and I was open and honest about my psychedelic experiences with the VA. So what the fucking doctor said man, nothing. They were surprisingly like I don't want to say supportive, but they weren't unsupportive. And this is why And this is they told me this. They're like you know, the reason why we're not going to do anything is because everything else in your life is good, your finances are good, you're not, you're not getting in trouble with the law or anything like that. So they're like if it's helping, then we'll support that. Like, because everything you're in school, you're doing this, you're doing that. So it was like I was showing them that I'm like Hey, look, i'm doing this mushroom thing and like shit's really going good for me. I'm not taking this medicine. So they're actually pretty cool with it, which so we're going to eventually have them on here.
Speaker 1:But I had a counselor who was very supportive of it my VA counselor. He's retired now He's retired And but he he's a big psychedelic supporter proponent and he's actually over in Fayetteville, Arkansas, and he's getting involved with their setting up psychedelic pro programs over there and at the college and he's going to be involved in that. Wow, yeah, so we'll have him on. I already talked to him about coming out of the podcast So he'd be. He'd be a really great source of information on psychedelics, like way I can imagine way deeper than I can go, and plus he's got the clinical experience and just like. But yeah, he's a very big supporter of psychedelics And it was really cool to have someone to talk to about it. Like you know, had maybe a more clinical approach. I mean, he's a deadhead, he's a total deadhead, which probably helped, but he was, he was the best, he was the best mental health practitioner I'd ever had And he didn't even serve the military. You know, usually it's kind of weird like talking to a guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, because when I went to rehab there was only one other, there was only two of the people that worked there that ever served in the military, so everyone else was civilians And like one of them that my counselor, she kind of like pissed me off one time. So we're talking about, you know, being in combat And a lot of these civilian mental health practitioners have it in their head that, like everyone shits and pisses themselves in combat. So I'm not kidding, like it's, it's weird. And I was telling her I'm like that that stuff didn't happen, like I never no one like pissed their pants And she was like. She was like didn't believe me.
Speaker 2:I was like okay, pissy pants.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it fucking pissed me off.
Speaker 1:I'm like bitch, first of all you have no idea Like no, no, no, like pissing their pants, dude, like I don't know who does that, you know? do you know who Lieutenant Colonel Grossman is? He wrote on killing, a book called on killing. No, it's an interesting book And it's basically on the psychology of combat killing, people taking lives, and there's a section in there that he talks about where, like, people are like evacuating their bowels And I mean that's a thing, but I never saw it. None of us ever dealt with it. Like in my worst firefights I wasn't like shitting myself or like peeing in my pants Like I've only heard of this like on death, like obviously like he let it go.
Speaker 2:But no, i never heard of like just well, okay.
Speaker 1:so me and Cooper always joke about it, Like you know, before we start rolling and jujitsu, like everyone, runs the piss. Yeah, Yeah, that's what's happening. Your body, your mind. I never go to piss, dude.
Speaker 2:Well, you're not hydrated I just I just pissed my pants over rolling dude. Oh god, hell. Yeah, i mean, is that what that was? It's not the mask that smell, It's me, bro. I knew it.
Speaker 1:I just knew it Fuck. So yeah, man, it's like your brain and body are preparing itself for for by the flight dude. Yeah, yeah, so like, but but it never happened in combat.
Speaker 2:So like that, i don't, that's just a weird aside, you know, strangely enough, like so, whenever you get into situations, you do release that chemical that everybody calls it adrenaline, but it's not it's. You know what's the actual chemical call. I can't even think right now. You're the nurse, dude, fuck you. I can't think right now. All right, but listen, that's disappointing It totally like you have. Your body has two different states, you know, like the rest and digest and it's got the fucking like booking mode, like my getting crushed by a car. I got to lift it Right And that like pretty much like all your digestive stuff, like stops, including your bladder and everything The next sense.
Speaker 1:So like, yeah, it has to do with like your, your body, like it's going to different places now.
Speaker 2:Your body is like literally prioritizing like what needs, like I don't like like suck that turtle head back in, dude.
Speaker 1:Like yeah, we got shit to do, all right, like you're gonna have to, like that makes sense, relax, you know because that's what I felt like in like being combat, like There's two things, like I'll tell you, this is getting way off psychedelics, but like the thing with combat is When you're in that moment. There's two things I remember thinking about One. I remember being appreciative that I was in good shape because breathing plays a very, very big part. Fucking shooting accurately, yes, yes, like so, when I was in that super hyper arous state I was.
Speaker 1:It was almost like a jiu-jitsu, where Here you're breathing, you're trying to breathe slowly, trying to control that breathing, because when you're not, you start panicking. It's the same, it's the same concept. And then When you're in a firefight, you get that fucking tunnel vision. Man, and you have to be aware of that, because if you get sucked into that tunnel vision too much, you're suddenly missing other pieces of the battle space. So it's like you kind of it's it's hard To not get into that tunnel vision because it's just naturally that's what we do, but you have to just be aware of it and the kind of you get super down on, like your off-dict, i fuck it like literally, like I'm looking at that wall and I'm not seeing anything.
Speaker 1:Like literally like my peripherals to shut down, yes, damn, yeah, like completely shut down. But but those are the two things I always remembered, like breathing and Like visual awareness, where the two things I always had to keep in mind and I'd say, even more than the visual thing, that the Breathing was the most important It's like getting into a good breathing pattern when you're running 50 miles.
Speaker 2:No, jesus dude you know what I used to run? I used to run, i mean, like five kids. It's fucking nothing compared to. I fucking hate running.
Speaker 1:Don't talk to me.
Speaker 2:You're right. You like you start off fucking, huffing and puffing. You're gonna be dead before it's over, yeah All right.
Speaker 1:So that was. That was the, the study from Roland Griffiths. Now, this was an accompanying study that was going on at the same time and is not in any way related To the study we just talked about. So this guy's name is Steven Ross, anthony bosses and a few other. So this study is the rapid and sustained symptom reduction following psilocybin treatment for Anxiety and depression in patients with life that in cancer. This is a separate study, mind you. Let's again, this is a separate study. This is not the same one. I just read. That's important, so let's go check this abstract out. Background clinically significant anxiety and depression are common in patients with cancer And are associated with poor psychiatric and medical outcomes.
Speaker 1:Historical and recent research suggests a role for psilocybin to treat cancer related anxiety and depression. Again, it's a double-blind placebo controlled crossover trial, and this one had 29 patients with cancer related anxiety and depression, and So these ones were randomly assigned and received treatment with a single dose of psilocybin or Niacin. Niacin was the control right, both in conjunction with psychotherapy. Let's see results prior to the crossover psilocybin okay, so when they say for everyone listening, when they say prior the crossover, like in the previous study, the way this study worked is that group A receives the hydro psilocybin right off the bat, group B receives the niacin Right and then after seven weeks They cross over. So now that group A will have the niacin and group B will then receive the Hydro psilocybin, okay, so prior to the crossover, psilocybin produced immediate, substantial and sustained improvements and An anxiety and depression and led to decreases in cancer related demoralization, hopelessness, improved spiritual well-being and increased quality of life. At the six and a half month follow-up, psilocybin was associated with enduring okay, here's that word and Angiolidic angiolidic, yeah, okay. And any depressant effects. And in parentheses, it says approximately 60 to 80 percent of participants continued with clinically significant reductions in depression or anxiety, sustained benefits and existential distress and quality of life, as well as improved attitude towards death. So both of these studies show That psilocybin administered to fucking people who are like practically they know they're dying, yeah, improved their quality of life, improved their fucking up. Both studies this study says 60 to 80 percent. The other study was like over 80 percent. That's fucking huge. That's almost every and the people. It's probably 80 percent because some of these people unfortunately passed away During the before the study concluded, before the study concluded. So Well, i guess what we can take away from These studies is that, psychedelics, i need to stop probably being dismissed.
Speaker 1:I Mean there's an ungodly amount of scientific research at this point. I mean, if in 1965 there was thousands of studies, i mean at this point there's got to be tripled at least year or more. Yeah, especially right now, because this is the weird thing that's happening. I Guess I kind of get why they have to do it, you know, but a lot of these researchers and scientists, they're they're they're Doing the same studies that have already been done in the 60s and 70s, right, so they're just they're treading ground That's already been walked on. And I get why a lot of them has stated because it's just, they kind of have to to, even though, like, the methods haven't really changed and the technology used to measure any of this stuff It's not like it's fucking groundbreaking, it's pretty basic tech. And I guess the reason why they're regurgitating and read, you know, re going over the same studies is just so, people, you know we're so, we're so tied into science, down research and everything science-based. And so there I get, they're getting all their ducks in a row like it's bulletproof and You know they're probably thick. Look, this is the one thing that I'm worried about with psychedelics and it's it's we're seeing it with weed is the commercialization of it.
Speaker 1:I so I kind of want to, uh, there's a caveat to all this psychedelic talk And I, you know, i think a lot of people that push psychedelics don't always, um, talk about it. But you know, psychedelics is not for everybody. You know, you said, like, as a nurse, you're not condoning it, and me, as someone who's used it, like there are absolutely people out there who have no business doing psychedelics typically, like in these studies, um, people who are allowed to participate in the studies A lot of times, individuals that have like a strong history of intense mental illness, schizophrenia, bipolar, like really, really chemical amounts, heavy, heavy stuff, um, should stay away from psychedelics. They're probably the ones who shouldn't. And and whenever someone hears somebody having a break from reality with psychedelics, that individual probably was susceptible to that Right, and that's a. That's a very small percentage of like very, very it's. So, actually, you know what? Um, i read that part to you.
Speaker 1:Let's go back to this part with the study that um, let's see if I can find it About the fact that over, okay, um, here we go. Safety and adverse events. So this is then that second study. There were no serious adverse events with medical uh or psychiatric um with the psilocybin in the trial that were attributed to psilocybin since the early 90s, all right. Since the early 1990s, according to the study, approximately 2000,. Approximately 2000 doses of psilocybin, ranging from low to high, have been safely administered to humans in the U? S and Europe and carefully controlled scientific settings, with no reports of any medical or psychiatric serious adverse events, including no reported cases of prolonged psychosis or HPPD. I don't know that. Do you know HPPD? I actually don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's never heard of HPPD. Okay, maybe someone out there will tell us.
Speaker 1:So, uh, and this finding is consistent with uh, let's see use population, a one to four data um base. Uh found no association between lifetime use of any of the of sight. So there's no addiction, right, yeah? So that's what this is saying. A lot of people there's that going back to you know people are like I don't want to lose control. Or you know, you see, uh, media presenting people that are on psychedelics and they fucking have mental breakdowns and all this other shit. And with these clinicians are saying is that that's bullshit. Though out of 2000, 2000 doses high, some of these incredibly high, not one time was any adverse effect reported. That's fucking huge. Say that about an SSRI, an antidepressant. I bet you can't. I bet you there's plenty of side effects that people try sick like or any sort of antidepressant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, there's always that risk And what they're saying is like no man, we have not seen that, and like that's huge, but that's big And that's. This is in a very heavily peer reviewed journal. That's, that's saying that. So I don't know. I mean I'm glad to see.
Speaker 1:It seems like now like the narrative's changing. You see more people openly talking about psychedelics, right, and you have states that are kind of rolling back. You know the legality of it. I mean if, if, if they're starting up research in Arkansas and psychedelics like you know that shit's changing And I bet you it's going to be like cannabis, weed, whatever you want to call it, that it'll be this domino effect. But going back to kind of like being afraid of what like with psychedelics, it's going to be commercialized, right, and and even though it hasn't happened with weed yet, they're going to try to figure out a way. I think, especially with psychedelics, because it's way more potent than just smoking a joint, like eating three and a half grams of mushrooms is not the same experience as like smoking a joint. Even if you eat. Well, when you eat weed it's, it's considered a hallucinogen. We'd consider it a hallucinogen because when you consume it, your liver processes it and you get this different, almost semi psychedelic experience.
Speaker 1:And actually I got a real funny story about that. I was living on the road, right, so this would have been 2021. I was. Where was I? So I was. I spent the summer down in the Kofa National Wildlife Refuge. It was down just north of Yuma, arizona. I spent the winter there. So I'm going to leave and I get into Nevada No, i'm sorry, i I I go up to a place called, i think, bullhead City, arizona, which is right on the Colorado River and right across from that is Laughlin, nevada.
Speaker 1:So I camp at this little campsite on the Arizona side. Wake up, you know, do my thing, cross the border in a Nevada and there's a dispensary right there. I go in and I'm like get a couple of pre-rolls And I'm like what do you have for edibles? And the lady I don't even know why I just I was like fuck it, let me just impulse, yeah. And she's like, well, we don't. But she's like we have these drinks, they're called Mai Tai shots. And I'm like all right, give me two of those, and each one's a hundred milligrams. So I walk out of the dispensary, literally drink the whole one, like drink it. Just drink it Cause I'm okay, cause here's the thing I had. I had eaten some edibles, like years prior, and had no effect, Like it didn't affect me. So I'm like I'm thinking like the same shit. Drink the whole thing.
Speaker 1:Get in my RV. I'm like cool, driving, driving. I get onto the Joshua Tree National Highway right, which is like that iconic highway. It's super fucking flat. You can see, you can. It's it's, it's crazy how it's going to go. It's it's, it's, it's crazy how flat it is. It's almost disorienting. So I'm on this highway and just drive. There's no track, there's no one around. I'm doing like 50. There's no traffic. I don't have to worry about shit, bro. And it starts like like I start feeling it. I'm like, okay, so get off the highway, stop at a gas station, get some sandwiches. And I'm talking to this lady and I'm like, oh man, i'm feeling it, i know. I go into my RV and dude it, fuck my heart, it hits me my heart starts racing, like I have this anxiety attack, yeah.
Speaker 1:But then I realized something like oh, like it's. Oh, my God, it's, it's, it's the drink, it's. I feel like I'm tripping right now. I feel like I'm about to enter a psychedelic experience. It's that same feeling I had, like when the mushrooms kick in and the. but the minute I realized that dude I was, it was beautiful. I get back on the road. I'm doing I'm not driving like crazy. I know it's like terrible to me that I'm doing that, but I did. I don't give a fuck, i'm a safe driver. Anyway. I'm in an RV. I'm doing like 50 miles an hour. I'm going slow And I remember driving in the highway I come across, i come up to this like climb up a bit, crest this hill, and there are these crazy power plants in California that are like there are these towers, so there's a big mirror on it And it's.
Speaker 1:It's like it's like redirecting the sunlight onto these panels. It's like a, it's like steam and shit. And I remember coming up over the hill and I see him. I'm like, i felt like I was driving in a mortar, you know, like the tower dude. It was like the coolest experience. But yeah, so when you consume a high enough amount of like weed, you'll have a psychedelic experience. It'll feel like it. I still think mushrooms are more intense, but yeah, that's just a little fun little story story, but I was like just names driving his RV just tripping major ball sack I felt like I was in fear and loathing in Las Vegas.
Speaker 1:Have you probably never seen that either? Go ahead and ask me Have you seen it? No, all right, that's three fucking movies that you've got to watch. Fear and loathing is So. It's Johnny Depp is in it, and basically it's about Hunter S Thompson. I don't know if you know Hunter S Thompson was a journalist wrote for Rolling Stones, very like super controversial.
Speaker 1:So Johnny Depp was a huge fan of Hunter S Thompson So he played him in fear and loathing. And it's it's about when he went out to Vegas to report on this race in the desert. It was some kind of I forget the race it was, but like the whole movie is just about his drug experiences, him and what the fuck, the guy's name that was in it And he's the adult Toro, okay Places attorney and like they're just dropping acid, doing mescaline mushrooms, just like bonkers. But yeah, so you can, man, you got to watch. Those are three movies. I think you really, you really got to watch.
Speaker 2:I've had my own apocalypse now for a while Like I want to watch that. I've been waiting for the right time, dude, it's so good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so good You got to get the Redux. It's like So apocalypse now is already a real long movie. The Redux is like Adds out like another hour, so the movies are three hours long, but it adds really critical part Like It shows. So the theatrical release cut out a big chunk of the movie where he's going down the river and they come across the French because people forget the French, you know, had the heavy involvement in Vietnam And we kind of like took over their shit show in like 64, 65, like France was getting their ass kicked in Vietnam before we were. So there's a lot of French that were there living, i tell me that the French surrendered.
Speaker 2:I don't know what they did but I get what you're insinuating.
Speaker 1:I get what you're insinuating. You know. What's ironic is that there was a time where France had the most powerful army in the fucking world. It's crazy. And they just Germany, just put an end to that. They're like fuck, you roll through and just destroy them. And then France was never the same. I trained at the French for an Legion and they're badass. But here's the thing about the French for an Legion Most of them are French, most of them are French, like so, in Djibouti, africa, djibouti, we left, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:You got the train at the Legion and most of them were from.
Speaker 1:I mean, i mean, i mean, i mean, i mean, i mean, i mean, i mean, I mean, i mean, i mean they were from South America, brazilian, a lot of Brazilians, Wow, yes, lots of Brazilians. And there was a guy from Norway which was awesome because he was a metalhead. Of course he's from fucking Norway, so I got to chow this dude about black metal and death metal And it was cool because he totally got it. But so the French for an Legion is super legit because they're you know, they're mostly not French. I guess He's in your forces man. And then the guy that was like I guess he was a sergeant, he was Irish, straight. I like had the accent, like super cool, like he's a. He's how I expected someone from Ireland to be just funny but like kind of brash, you know, and just didn't give a fuck.
Speaker 1:Yeah man, but he was such a cool guy, really cool guy. Ok, so Yeah, psychedelics, i think, um, let me, there's a. There was something in the psychedelic experience I did want to read again before as we start whining this talk on psychedelics down. So Let me see here Where is it at Just talked about it, but on your reading glasses, old man.
Speaker 1:I know, dude. Ok, so here we go. In August 2004, the English newspaper The Mail on Sunday reported that geneticist Francis Crick was taking low doses of LSD when he uncovered the double helix from the DNA molecule in 1953. This bit of information, which cricks strenuously suppressed during his life but eventually admitted to, is only one of many examples of a secret technostic history linking psychedelic use with recent advances in human knowledge.
Speaker 1:See, a lot of people don't understand that a lot of scientists will use psychedelics. You know when, when Timothy Leary, and when they were ramping up their research, scientists were coming to them because they would be stuck with problems And they would go through an LSD trip And after that trip they would suddenly have the answer to their problem. And that's what I don't think a lot of people understand. You know, carl Sagan was physicist. Yes, i know Pale blue dot contact. He was a. He was a big proponent of weed. He said it helped him think, helped him go into deeper levels of consciousness. So I think And I kind of blame the scientific community for that, for being so kind of quiet about it because if people understood that some very significant scientific advances came about because of a psychedelic experience like, that's huge, you know like why. So why is this shuttered away, man? Why are people so fucking ashamed?
Speaker 2:to talk about it, Ironic. they didn't want to be looked down upon, but their very admittance could make it less looked down upon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly It gets rid of that stigma. But you know, i think we're in a better spot now as a society. I think we understand that psychedelics aren't as ridiculous like weed, like the government trying to. You know, reefer madness, Right, i mean, come on, bro, they're smoking weed in a robin banks and shit like acting complete bonkers, which was the most inaccurate depiction of anyone smoking weed. I mean, that's just so nuts. So so there's this history of psychedelic usage and scientific advancement that I think a lot of people aren't aware of. So I wanted to get that out there. And then let's see again. This is from the psychedelic experience. For the first time since the 60s, the government and the academy are permitting scientific research into psychedelic. Because you asked how you know how, all of a sudden, these places are getting able to study, because it is a schedule one right, The government, the academy?
Speaker 2:what about MK ultra?
Speaker 1:Oh, they could do it, bro We couldn't or what, but that was before it was made illegal. Oh, all those studies place in like the 50s and 60s. Really OK, interesting, charles Manson.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:MK ultra.
Speaker 2:No way. Yeah, ted Kaczynski too. Yes, you know, bob, are you a bomber?
Speaker 1:Yes, so he's got Yeah it's fucking brilliant And there's a whole rabble a whole week to go down with Charles Manson, yeah, and MK ultra and the fact that when he got arrested he always got people would come in and be like he's no, he needs to go. The local law enforcement never understood it. It was like federal people coming in being like no, you need to let him go. Yeah, there's a lot of fuck. Yeah, dude, our government's nefarious bro, like our government is nefarious, it's not just our government, dude. Well, no, but I mean we don't have to deal with any other government Like I recently read an article about what was in Japan and their experiments on their people.
Speaker 2:I can remember what it was called dude during World War Two Yeah, they were awful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're. people forget how fucking brutal Japan was.
Speaker 2:That should have been a crime until like 80s.
Speaker 1:Dude, they were, they fucking Chinese, like Japan was terrible.
Speaker 2:What was that fucking place called Help me out? man, There was like that at B. They had this big camp or this facility they take people to.
Speaker 1:I don't know the name of the place, but I I know what you're talking about. I know they did. They did like Nazi type experiments on people. Yeah, japan was like I don't people like oh my God, we nuked them. It's like they were doing some pretty fucked up shit.
Speaker 2:They're already pretty fucked. Like they were not, they were literally planning on dropping. What is it?
Speaker 1:Some I think was ridden rats or insects in California They had the play by play right.
Speaker 1:Something they were going to literally fuck us up Because because they were experimenting with those kinds of diseases, that, yeah, we're just all in the shit And like, yeah, japan wasn't innocent in anything. Man like not innocent at all. So yeah, so let me see what else. So you got maps. He talks about maps. Ok. So he even talks about while scientific study of psychedelics picks up. Now, just so we're clear, this is the full.
Speaker 1:This is an introduction to the psychedelic experience book, because this book was written, god, this book was written in the 60s And so the introduction is what I'm reading off of 64 is when this was originally published and the introduction is from 2007. So it's more modern And he even talks about how there's a there's also an increasing openness towards the legally sanctioned use of natural and theogens or, in parentheses, god, releasing chemicals and established religious ritual. That's why. So in the US you have the Native American Church. Have you heard of them? They're like so it was started by quantum Parker, who was a Comanche, and They used Payote, yeah, to allow their ceremony. So Quantum Parker fought the government and won because he said, look, this is a part of our religious Ceremony and so anybody affiliated with the Native American Church has a right to use entheogens, you know plant medicines to. So whenever you hear people in the US using like Iowa Oscar, they're probably affiliated with like a, a Native American, like the Native American. it's a very generic term And you know like I get the problem with the term Native American. It's just so generic, but that's what it's called, you know.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, man, i think I think the times are changing with psychedelics. I think more people are aware of it, more people are wanting to know About psychedelics and that's why I like talking about it. You know I especially talking about it because I've got a lot of Well experience with it, but also like the background, being a combat vet and kind of the way it's positively affected you. I would share that with other. Yes, absolutely, and I think the more You know people like us talk about it, i think the more willing You know people are who have been maybe kind of closed minded to it Or are then going to be more willing to be like, ok, well, maybe I should look into this. If this guy is talking about it and he's not a hippie, he's presenting some pretty valid scientific research that shows the effectiveness of, you know, even though those studies were done on cancer patients, it's like, if it works for them, it's going to obviously work.
Speaker 2:Well they're. They have literally the probably The highest form of depression. You know what I'm saying. Like they are 100%, completely aware that they are going to die. Like they have. So the anxiety with that The one started to interrupt.
Speaker 1:But the one thing I didn't in both of these studies, everyone that had this significant experience compared it to the birth of their first child, to weddings. That's how significant that psychedelic experience was was that they put it up on importance with the birth of their children, with their wedding. Like that's not a small thing, that is a fucking significant experience. That's why, when I had my experience, when I had that initial experience at Bird Fest, like if I were to take profound experiences of my life, like combat and other things, psychedelics would be right there at the top, like that experience, that one experience, open the doorway to everything else. Like if I, if I wouldn't have had that experience, like I wouldn't have started writing, i probably wouldn't have went back to school. I would have kind of been, i would have been stuck in this little shell. You know that I don't even think I realized I had Like I figured I was in a good spot And then I had psychedelics. I was like whoa, i've got a lot of work I got to work on And it just breaks down that barrier, i think.
Speaker 1:I think Joe Rogan talks about this a lot and it's joking, but I think it's a good thing He says that politicians, before they like get into office they should be, they should have to have a psychedelic experience. I mean, think about it. Anyone who has that, that, that intense, positive psychedelic experience almost every time Their sense of compassion increases. And I don't know if anyone knows directly why that happens.
Speaker 1:For me personally, all I can say is that when you're in the throat of a psychedelic experience, you literally feel like you're connected to everything. You don't place anything above yourself or below. You're just like I'm just a part of it And you don't even care what it is. You're just like you feel your energy. You feel everyone else's energy, even when I'm by myself. It's like I can feel this. I feel like and see, this is getting a little woo, but it's like you feel the ground's energy. You feel like the sun's shining Energy, feel like the star, like you just feel it. You feel like you're connected, you, it's like you can see the fibers that are, like connected to us. You know what I mean. And and that gets a little woo, but like that's proceeds to say he's not a hippie.
Speaker 2:We got a fucking hippie.
Speaker 1:I mean, i guess in a way I'm like I kind of am some aspects, you know, like I could, but I don't go all in, i'm not, you know no, i'm just a fucking shit. Yeah, i'm not listening to fish or grateful debt or anything. I'm like a metal head hippie. maybe You know Cooper's brother said that to me. He's like I think was. I was wearing my tie. I creed teen shirt Like this is your body.
Speaker 1:And then Seth was like he's like I swear, every time you come here you look more like like a, like a marine hippie, like I guess I'll take that as a compliment, i guess, um, so, yeah, man, psychedelics. I want to sort of wrap this up before I go to you with any questions or anything. Um, this is with a quote. This is Roland Griffiths gave a really, really good Ted talk And if any of you want to uh hear his Ted talk, just go on, go on YouTube, search for Roland Griffiths Ted talk on psychedelics. It's really good. It's only like 15 minutes but he actually talks about the study that he took, uh, the this um study with these cancer patients. But, um, i want to sort of wrap this up with what he says in um, that Ted talk And this is what he said. I quote excitingly, exploration of the psilocybin occasion.
Speaker 1:The mystical experience seems to provide a model system for rigorous and perspective investigation of these awakening experiences. Further research will surely reveal the underlying biological mechanisms of action, will likely result in an array of therapeutic applications And, more importantly, because such experiences are foundationally related to our moral and our ethical understandings, further research may ultimately prove to be crucial to the very survival of our species. Damn, that's intense. It's intense, yeah, and I agree with him. And it goes back to politicians having to have a psychedelic experience. You know, um, it's so tied in, it is so tied in norm, morals and our compassion. We, you know, we always talk about being compassionate but it's really lip service. And after you have that crazy psychedelic experience, i feel like you really understand, you, what compassion is Like. You know, it's just, it's, it's, it's an experience I think a lot of people should have.
Speaker 1:If you're hesitant about trying psychedelics, hopefully this kind of shed some light on, uh, you know maybe what to expect, um, how to, how to get your environment right before you start, because I don't think a lot of people think about that. Yeah Right, they're like, oh, i'm just going to fucking hang on my buddies and we're going to just do, we're going to eat a bunch of mushrooms, and that's not always the best thing to do. No, sometimes, you know, the best thing for you to do is find someone you trust, tell them your intentions, you know, have them, be your guide and look, oh, this is the one thing I I I didn't um get into too much, but, like a good guide is going to interact with you as little as possible. Right Cause a guide, uh they. You want to make sure, like a good guy, does not? you don't want them to steer you in a direction you're not naturally taking yourself, so the guide is really only there to make sure there's you don't fucking freak out.
Speaker 1:It sounds like well yeah, to make to to make sure you don't freak out, but then they're not there to tell you what you should think or how you should like. they're just there, and having that presence sometimes is all you need. Just knowing there's someone else with you will help, like I'm okay, I'm good, they're right there, they're going to keep me safe and and all that. So that's on guide. So if you're, you're on the fence about psychedelics, hopefully we cleared some of that up.
Speaker 1:Um, there's a ton of scientific literature and research on the safety of psychedelics. So if that's one of your hangups, um, you're afraid you're going to have a psychotic break. is that one study stated there's over the 2000 doses? not once have they were had anybody have a, a, a schizophrenic break or anything like that that you hear in these fucking pop culture, ridiculous media, um, sensationalism, um. so if you're on the fence, you know, dive in and do some research. Uh, what I'm going to do is I'm going to include all the links um to the studies, um to the books that uh my reference. So anyone who's interested in diving deeper um into the world of psychedelics you can go ahead and read some of the research yourself. Maybe you know. just just so you can get um a better understanding of what it's all about. Um, yeah, man, do you got any? uh, anything else you want to?
Speaker 2:I want to put this out there because I know there's going to be people listening. You know whose professions you know might not necessarily allow this kind of thing And uh, i understand that myself, you know, and uh, you have to respect that. Sure, if it's your job, that's got to be your priority. Yes, but uh, if I were to just abstractly say that mushrooms typically on this day and your system for 24 hours, you know that might be some information that might get utilized, but it's, you know, throw that out there for for those who would consider it.
Speaker 1:Well, it takes a specific kind of panel to even find and even air.
Speaker 2:Aereo-polical testing is is pretty, pretty intense. It's like 90 days for most, most stuff, so, but those are extremely expensive to uh employers.
Speaker 1:Well you, heard it, you heard it, heard it from the nurse. I'm not condoning anything.
Speaker 2:He's not condoning anything, you know. I'm just telling you how long it may may not stay in there.
Speaker 1:He's just giving out factual information, so I'm here for him. That's what he's here for.
Speaker 2:Anything else? No, man, i think we're good to go Cool.
Speaker 1:Well, uh, I think this wraps up this episode of the podcast And I think, uh, I'm not sure what we're going to talk about next time. There there's a couple of things brewing. So I, uh I posted a reels um, I think it was last week that got I don't kind of like riled some feathers and do I talk to you about it? Like the suffering and silence versus like carrying your burdens and people. I don't think like the term suffer in silence, Yeah, Uh, but then it got, he started this whole other chain of thought of you see, on social media there's a lot of people, There's almost this cult like following in, like you know, seek discomfort and do this, you know, and that's going to like and I think people confuse the messaging, Like I did a nice bath for three minutes, So suddenly you're going to be resilient in life And it's like it's not the way that works, man, You know. So that might be something we have to dive into. Okay, Sure, You know.
Speaker 1:So, um, all right, Hey, check out Norse fitness for all your workout shit, your supplements. You want some cool stuff That abandoned modern culture. Lots of people have been really digging on that. The band, pretty fucking sweet man, Yeah, The shirt, the flag. Yeah, Use code either machine to save some money Um.
Speaker 2:so when this podcast is available, you can find it on Spotify iTunes, google Play, fucking, just a web.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah Yeah, pod bean, pod chaser, like literally wherever you can fight podcasts, you're going to be able to find this podcast. I think all of us are going to be able to find it. We're going to be able to find this podcast. I thank all of you, we thank all of you for, for, yes, for listening, for downloading. Please, uh, tell, tell your friends, tell the family. If you enjoy this podcast, share it so we can, we can keep a, so we can keep making them and sharing them and coming up with cool stuff to talk about. And I think it's only going to get better from here. Yeah, um, i think in the coming weeks we're going to have a, a proper studio. That room's going to have like a no shit setup to, where I think we'll start introducing some video. What do you think?
Speaker 2:That sounds fucking cool, man. Yeah, dude, cause we're going to have some cool background imagery. I mean, who doesn't want to see this sexy microphone man? I know man.
Speaker 1:I don't know. Thanks bro, i appreciate that. Thanks, you know, it's why you had to bastard over here. Hey look, first of all, i'm a silver fox, so let's get that fucking straight. All right, i'm a silver fox.
Speaker 2:Silver fox baby. Yeah, So it's called.
Speaker 1:All right, until next time, take care of yourselves. Good, good, good couple weeks. Yeah, if you have questions on psychedelics, please feel free to reach out. My DMs are open. If you have any questions or concerns or any kind of input on the podcast, reach out. And uh, yeah, until next time. Until next time, guys, Until next time. Until next time.
