Bringing people back into politics with Kate Chaney, Curtin Independent

Kate Chaney, Curtin Independent, talks climate action, integrity, and how responsible economic and socially progressive community responses will help us address the complex issues of our times. She reminds us that we are the system, we are politics and we all have a responsibility to get involved.

Kate is an accomplished professional.  She’s worked in corporate, consultancy, and the not-for-profit sectors; in areas including strategy, social impact, sustainability and indigenous affairs.   

We recorded this interview on the cusp of the 2022 Australian Federal Election being called, and two months into Kate’s campaign of mobilising her community for a wave of change.  

 “It’s been the community that’s been missing from our political system and that’s what’s so exciting to see coming back.” – Kate Chaney.

You’ll hear:

• Kitchen table conversations for change and how they have informed the four pillars of Kate’s Independent platform. 
• Climate action – it’s now or never! (3:50)
• Integrity and anti-corruption in Parliament (6:35)
• Economic responsibility (8:30)
• Inclusive communities (11:10)
• Volunteers (13:00)
• Road to politics (16:20)
• Social innovation (17:30)
• Future building systems and Next 25 (18:20)
• Family words of wisdom (22:50)
• Independents in the next Parliament (24.40)
• Housing (30:00)
• Constitutional change for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders (31:20)
• Co-designing with communities. (35:20)

Duration: 41 mins

Links:

• Kate Chaney, Independent for Curtin
• Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, 2022 Report  
• Gratton report Gridlock  
• Next 25

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Podcast website: https://mywarmtablewithsoni

Transcript

Kate Chaney: 0:04

I think I happen to be in the right place at the right time. And there is this wave of energy, I feel it too, that they're getting behind me. But really what they're getting behind is the need for change. My three kids are 16, 14 and 10. And they've given me some really great advice Actually, both before I committed and since then, my 16 year old said to me, I'm really worried that this will pull you away from what you truly believe, because you get caught up in the politics. And I thought it lets you know, that's a fair concern and one worth looking out for. My 10 year old daughter said to me, Mum, I think this is probably going to be bad for me in the short term, but I think in the long term, it's good for me because it's good for Australia.

Sonia Nolan: 0:53

That's Kate Chaney with words of wisdom from her children when she told them of her intention to run as the independent candidate for the WA seat of Curtin in the upcoming federal election. Kate and I have been in each other's orbit for more than 10 years. And I've always been impressed by her sense of self, her intelligence, and now her courage in standing to make a difference. She's been campaigning for two months, leading a grassroots movement for change. So I was really delighted that she found a window of time to pop over for a cup of tea and a chat to share her long term hopes for Australia, and why she's standing for election. We recorded this literally on the eve of the 2022 Federal Election being called. So since we spoke life has become even more interesting. I'm Sonia Nolan, and I'm pleased to welcome you here at My Warm Table. Kate, welcome to My Warm Table.

Kate Chaney: 1:46

Thank you, Sonia, thanks very much for having me.

Sonia Nolan: 1:48

It's a pleasure. And I'm really interested because as the title of my podcast suggests, I truly believe that great movements and positive change can really happen about around a warm table. And I'm really interested, I wish I was a fly on the wall because I'm suspecting that you've had all sorts of great conversations around your kitchen table in the last few months.

Kate Chaney: 2:08

Absolutely. And probably for the last years as well. Whether it be my table or other people's tables, and in fact, Curtin Independent, which was the community group that asked me to run started with a series of kitchen table conversations where they we got together with people from across the electorate to say, how do you feel about politics? What do you think's missing? So that that kitchen table conversation is very much a theme in in my campaign and where it's come from.

Sonia Nolan: 2:37

Yeah, and I can only imagine the some of the things you've heard, share them with us what what are the things that people are seeking? And what are the and how have they influenced the platform in which you're standing.

Kate Chaney: 2:47

So when I was approached by Curtin independent, we had this conversation. And it was really interesting because I could see their eyes lighting up and my eyes were lighting up too because we were saying the same thing. And I think like so many people around Australia and definitely within my electorate in Curtin, I just feel deeply fed up with what we're seeing from from federal politics. I think our two party system is broken. And it's not delivering the long term thinking that we need to manage the big challenges that we face as a country.

Sonia Nolan: 3:25

Tell us about some of those challenges, which are informing your platform, its climate change, its social innovation.

Kate Chaney: 3:31

Yeah. So really, there are four parts of my platform. And this came from my sense of dissatisfaction, but largely from the conversations that I've had with people across the electorate. And they are climate action, integrity, economic opportunities, and inclusive communities

Sonia Nolan: 3:49

tell me what underpins those areas.

Kate Chaney: 3:51

Firstly, climate action. I think we have lost 10 years to politics, on climate. All different parties have put put things forward during that time, and they've all been knocked down due to the political point scoring, and things being driven by politics, rather than that, that long term thinking. And we are on the cusp of, of huge change. And I have no I mean, on the science side, and we had a new IPCC report out this week saying now or never

Sonia Nolan: 4:21

that's the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Action

Kate Chaney: 4:24

on climate change. That's right, which is hundreds and hundreds of scientists from all over the world that get together representing their governments to develop these reports on a fairly six year basis. on where we stand, and the most recent report said it's now or never, it was really the most dire warning we've had about how essential it is that we act now.

Sonia Nolan: 4:49

That's a call to action if ever you've heard one.

Kate Chaney: 4:51

It's really depressing. But but the the thing that we don't talk about as much in Australia is that this is also accompanied by a huge Economic Opportunity. So I have no doubt that our global economy will decarbonize. It's just what has to happen. I'm not entirely sure that it will be soon enough to prevent irrevocable damage. But the second thing that I'm not sure about is whether Australia's actually going to get on board with that, and ride the wave of economic opportunity that comes from that. We've been an energy powerhouse for a long time. And we've got everything going for us to really be part of this, this decarbonized shift to renewable energy. We've got sun and wind and critical minerals and transferrable skills and technology and space. And this should be a really exciting time for us. And we're not... It's been framed as we have to choose between the environment and the economy, but actually both depend on action really soon.

Sonia Nolan: 5:52

And they're the same, different sides of the same coin, because they have to be, they really have to be at the moment, because business needs to really think about how they're going to decarbonize in order to remain economically sustainable for their own shareholders and stakeholders as well.

Kate Chaney: 6:08

Absolutely.

Sonia Nolan: 6:09

You see that really clearly in your lens and the way that you're reimagining how we can respond to climate action.

Kate Chaney: 6:16

That's right. And we see that business in many areas, businesses are way ahead of government on decarbonisation, and the financial markets as well. And we've got a federal government that's just not keeping up. So I think that's a big issue. One of the things that underpins that is the second part of my platform, which is integrity. And I think there is huge dissatisfaction with what we see coming out of our political system. We're becoming increasingly inured to seeing taxpayer money being used for political purposes. Now we roll our eyes and think, well, that's just politics. We see wave after wave of rorts, the sports rorts and the community safety rorts, and we see contracts being given to large companies that happen to be donors to political parties. And there's really no accountability for that. So at the pointy end of that integrity issue, we need a Federal Anti Corruption Commission with teeth. And there are various models around I'm pretty pragmatic about what model we would we end up with, but it needs to be able to investigate corruption in its broadest sense, not only the criminal parts, it needs to be able to do investigations and hold public hearings and make findings. And we don't have that at the moment, every state has something equivalent, but we are currently holding our federal politicians to a lower standard than almost anyone else in the community. And I think that's completely the wrong way around.

Sonia Nolan: 7:46

I totally agree. So if you were to define the word integrity, Kate, what is integrity to you?

Kate Chaney: 7:52

So I think it is being able to be trusted to do what you say you're going to do, and mean it. The broader the issue is beyond the structural, anti corruption commission that I think also are included in integrity include how women are treated in Parliament, we need safe workplaces, where people are respected. And also just the culture in in Canberra, part of integrity is focusing on on the things that matter, and not getting distracted by the things that don't. The third part of my platform is economic opportunities. And I've talked a little bit about the the opportunities that arise out of decarbonisation, but there's some we have some really long term economic challenges that neither major party is talking about. So we have a trillion dollars in national debt. And no one's going to talk about that, because it's not politically popular to talk about what how we're gonna get out of that. And connected to that is we have a tax system that is not fit for purpose. So we need our tax system to reform so it's ready for the sociological, you know, the demographic and social and environmental challenges of the next 20 years. But, you know, we had the Ken Henry Report 12 years ago that made a whole lot of recommendations, almost none of which have been implemented, because that long term reform is really hard to do in the two party system

Sonia Nolan: 9:18

and really unpopular,

Kate Chaney: 9:19

It's unpopular. Yeah,

Sonia Nolan: 9:20

you're saying that almost none of the Ken Henry recommendations were,

Kate Chaney: 9:24

I think it's three out of 100, or something like that.

Sonia Nolan: 9:27

And that was almost a decade well, more than more than a decade ago. So imagine where we could be,

Kate Chaney: 9:33

and so many, on so many different types of reform have ground to a halt over the last decade. And we look at the big reforms of the 80s. And going on from there a bit. And we just don't see that sort of continual improvement of our system. The Grattan Institute did a great report called Gridlock that looked at what what was causing that and, and a big part of it is this two party system we were driven by short term polls, rather than leading and talking to my uncle, who was a federal politician in the 80s,

Sonia Nolan: 10:08

Fred Chaney,

Kate Chaney: 10:09

Fred Chaney, and he, he was in the Liberal Party and was in opposition in the 80s, when the Labor Party proposed a lot of economic reform. And he says that the the Liberal Party had had a lot of time to think about what was right for the country. And so they didn't block those reforms, because they knew that they were right for the country. And you don't get any political credit for not blocking something. And but but it was the right decision, and they were putting the public interest over their political interest. And we just don't see that anymore.

Sonia Nolan: 10:39

Well, you know, getting back to the root word of politics, it's about the activities of the cities. You know, that's, that's what it's supposed to be about. It's about reflecting what's going on in the cities. But it just appears that we've, I don't know, the mirrors turned inward a little bit more. And we're really just reflecting what's going on amongst the characters in Parliament rather than really being as you've just said, you know, what is good for society? What is good for the people?

Kate Chaney: 11:04

And I think that that's absolutely right. But that definition of politics, I think, is a nice lead on to the fourth priority, which is inclusive communities. And Curtin is a fairly socially progressive electorate, actually, we had the highest vote in a positive vote in the marriage equality plebiscite in the state, which is not necessarily representative now, in our current representation. We've got huge work, a lot of work to do on things like reconciliation. And the Uluru Statement from the Heart was an amazing opportunity presented to government by Aboriginal leaders from all over the country, to redefine our future together. And that has not been taken up. The way we treat asylum seekers is I think appalling, and definitely has been driven by politics, not by any sense of compassion, or even

Sonia Nolan: 12:00

Humanity

Kate Chaney: 12:02

And, and more broadly, the way we think about diversity, and a lot of our policies are driven by fear rather than hope. And I think that diversity is one of the strengths of our of our society, and really recognising that and ensuring that it's built into how we operate has got to be part of our, our path forwards.

Sonia Nolan: 12:26

Yeah, and you've said two words that have really struck me Kate fear and hope. And what I've noticed about your campaign, which, you know, it's only been active for the last two to three months, is that a fair, call?

Kate Chaney: 12:37

two months,

Sonia Nolan: 12:38

two months, two months, You have absolutely defied the opportunity to go down the fear path. And your platform is one of hope and of reimagining. And, you know, there are opportunities and really seeing that there is a roadmap forward for, for Australia,

Kate Chaney: 12:58

Before I decided to whether to run or not, I felt quite ambivalent about it, because it's a huge thing to do to put your life on hold and, and put yourself up for for a role like this. But since launching, I have not had a moment's doubt that it's the right thing to do. And one of the things that's really been part of that is the 550 volunteers we now have on who are on the team, and the incredible hope and excitement that they have about there being an alternative. And they're mostly people who have never been involved in politics before. But they've just had a gut full. And they're really excited to be involved in something that that is positive, that makes makes us excited about the future rather than fearful.

Sonia Nolan: 13:46

Obviously, they've seen an opportunity where they can be included.

Kate Chaney: 13:49

And definitely, I mean, starting from scratch, one of the challenges was we were overwhelmed with volunteer support, and a pretty highly skilled, you know, volunteer cohort, and we didn't just didn't have the systems or processes set up to actually be able to tap into and use and find opportunities for those volunteers. So that's taken a little while to get in place. But I've got doctors who are spending the afternoon folding T shirts and and lawyers who are now getting competitive about how many yard signs they can do in a day.

Sonia Nolan: 14:24

It's a competition. That's fantastic. Do they get a t shirt if they win?

Kate Chaney: 14:30

They've got they've already got their t-shirt!

Sonia Nolan: 14:32

I did hear one of your because what you've been doing, Kate has been really sharing your journey of campaigning with people who've been subscribing to your platform and to your page. And I really loved that you received lots of different offers of help and someone could lift heavy things.

Kate Chaney: 14:53

He said I've got long arms and I can lift heavy things.

Sonia Nolan: 14:56

I mean, you've got everything going in your volunteer base!

Kate Chaney: 15:00

It's great. And what I'm loving about it is people come in there pop into the office, and they feel a bit nervous and walk through the door. And, and they've all got different things. And we've got one guy who said, I'm terrible at talking to people, I don't want to talk to people, but I can deliver stuff. And so that's what he does. And another amazing woman, up in the north of the electorate, who's said, what I can do is walk. So she wears her t shirt every day, and she walks around the electorate wearing the campaign t shirt, to raise awareness.

Sonia Nolan: 15:31

So she's just doing her daily walk.

Kate Chaney: 15:33

Yep. But she says she's upped her daily walk, it's about three times as long as it used to be. And she strategically walks past primary schools and shopping centres. And so everyone's finding their own way to engage in our political system. I think that has been what's been missing. It's been the community that's been missing from our, from our political system. And that's what's so exciting to see coming back,

Sonia Nolan: 15:55

But you're clearly giving them something to wear with pride, Kate?

Kate Chaney: 15:59

Well, I think I happen to be in the right place at the right time. And there is this wave of energy, and I feel it too, that they're getting behind me, but really what they're getting behind is the need for change.

Sonia Nolan: 16:17

Let's take a retrospective look at Kate Chaney, five years ago. Could you have imagined that this is where we'd be on the eve of the 2022 announcement of an election and Kate Chaney is standing as an independent? Is that something that you would have pictured five years ago?

Kate Chaney: 16:37

It's an interesting point that you've chosen because five years ago, I was having a good hard thing about my future. I've had, before that I'd been a lawyer was a did an MBA was at Boston Consulting Group doing strategy consulting, spent some time at Perth Airport as a general manager business development, and then at Wesfarmers and a few different roles in sustainability and Aboriginal Affairs. And then five years ago, I was thinking, what am I going to do next? And I knew that it had to be something with purpose. And I and at various times, people have said, Would you go into politics, and I've always said, I don't think I can, because I don't fit in either of the parties. I grew up in an in a Liberal Party family. But I've felt like the compassion has come out of the Liberal Party in recent years. So I didn't feel that that was I was represented there. So I'd always dismissed it and said, No, I probably don't fit there. So five years ago, I was just about to start my role at Anglicare WA as Director of Innovation and Strategy. And that that's been a fantastic. What I loved about that was going into a completely different work environment, where my skills were unusual. But I also learned a whole lot of different skills from people who had, you know, worked their way through the organisation from being social workers with very different perspectives. And I had so much to learn. And I've loved that that role, and the ability to contribute to my community through that role. So would I have imagined that this was where I was heading? Probably not. I have to say in December, I probably didn't. December 2021. I didn't know this is where I was heading either.

Sonia Nolan: 18:20

But 2022 held a big surprise

Kate Chaney: 18:22

It did indeed. I mean, I was thinking about how do I get involved in a policy from a policy perspective? And, and how do we improve our future building system. And for about the last decade, I've been on the board of an organisation called Next 25, which is looking at a national nonprofit that looks at our future building system and how we can improve it. And that's our politicians, government departments, media, the corporate sector, the community sector and the community. And together, we build our our future. And so I've been thinking about those macro issues for a decade. And the interesting thing that that organisation found was, everyone agrees there's a problem. We're not making better long term decisions. But everyone thinks it's the fault of a different part of the system,

Sonia Nolan: 19:07

there you go - so that was that five areas there six areas? Yes.

Kate Chaney: 19:11

Yeah. Yeah.

Sonia Nolan: 19:12

So the media thinks it's the politicians fault. And the politicians thinks that's another thing, right? But that's not helpful. And yet, you know, we are all mutually responsible for all of that. Civic society is a fabric with lots of threads. And we're all part of that.

Kate Chaney: 19:27

That's right. And I remember through Next 25 going and meeting with a bunch of heads of departments in West Australian government, and about, you know, why we couldn't be making better long term decisions and where the, where the system was falling down. And the thing that struck me was a number of them who we spoke to said, Well, there's nothing I can do. I'm just a small piece in the in the system and having this dawning realisation that we actually are the system and that has built, I think that realisation thinking, well, if I'm not going to do anything about it, who do I actually think will? Which is quite a, it's a scary idea when you suddenly think this is, this is my problem.

Sonia Nolan: 20:14

Would you say that you've had a calling to do this, like, has there been this this urgency within you to take this leap?

Kate Chaney: 20:22

So I think I've always had a sense of responsibility to community and my, my family, I come from a really large family, who are almost all still in Perth. And there's a strong sense of service in my family, whether that was in education, law, business, or politics. And politics on both sides. So I definitely grew up thinking, expecting that you have a role to play in contributing to your to your community. But I think that can be done in so many different ways. And I've seen that from a number of different angles. The urgency about politics, I, I would not have done this, if I hadn't been approached by a couple of different people I knew in early January, who said, You really must talk to this community group. And I spoke to them. And in that first conversation, on the fifth of January, when I was sitting in a campground at Rottnest, on a zoom call, I had this this realisation, which is, I might actually have to do this, this is something that I can do with integrity, that feels like it is making a positive impact. And I thought about it for a couple of weeks, and ended up thinking I'll regret not doing this more than I regret doing it. Because it's really important.

Sonia Nolan: 21:43

And that's a really great way to measure something, isn't it that? You know, okay, we can talk about regrets. But gosh, imagine the path forward, if I had done that, rather than now look at it, and I didn't do it.

Kate Chaney: 21:55

Absolutely. And, you know, it's I felt like vomiting when I was thinking about doing it, because you're putting yourself out there and you don't know what sort of mud is going to be thrown. And it's a dirty business. And it's very hard to get used to seeing your face all over the place. And, you know, the seeing things in the paper about you that aren't true. And so. So you know, it does involve some, some courage. But I do think that at this stage of my life, I don't need I'm not doing this because I want to be a politician, I'm doing it because I want to see change. And having that North Star and that purpose really clear, in my mind, I think has helped me focus on the bits that are important and forget the bits that aren't

Sonia Nolan: 22:38

And how's your family responded, sort of extended family from the you know, your, your family who's been in who've been in politics, and also I guess, your kids and your husband? How have they all responded to this call to action that you've you've risen to?

Kate Chaney: 22:53

I had some advice from some wise voices before I decided not to do it. Actually,

Sonia Nolan: 23:00

Don't do this Kate!

Kate Chaney: 23:02

because of the personal cost involved. But having said that, once, once they saw my conviction, they've been supportive. So my uncle has been a mentor to me for a long time. And, and Uncle Fred is now on my advisory board and a really useful, wise, long term perspective for me to hear. My husband has been fantastic. He's very supportive and has picked up, you know, more of the workload at home. My three kids are 16, 14 and 10. And they've given me some really great advice, actually, both before I committed and since then,

Sonia Nolan: 23:48

oh, what sort of advice Kate?

Kate Chaney: 23:50

My 16 year old said to me, Mum, I'm really worried that that this could make you could pull you away from what you truly believe because you get caught up in the politics. And I thought, what's that? Oh, that's a fair concern. And one worth looking out for

Sonia Nolan: 24:10

and very deep for a 16 year old young man to be sharing too

Kate Chaney: 24:14

my 10 year old daughter said to me, Mum, I think this is probably going to be bad for me in the short term. But I think in the long term, it's good for me, because it's good for Australia.

Sonia Nolan: 24:23

Oh, what a beautiful young woman

Kate Chaney: 24:24

at that point, I thought I think I'm gonna have to do this. So they've been good. She also said when I was just sort of thinking about my policy platform, she said to me, well, Mum, you've always told us that honesty and kindness are the most important things, so shouldn't that be your policy platform? And it's not a bad place to start, is it?

Sonia Nolan: 24:47

Kate, it seems clear, I guess, if you read all the media conjecture that's out at the moment, that independents are actually going to have a really significant role in the next Parliament. That it does look like it's heading that way. Tell me what that is going to look like, from your perspective.

Kate Chaney: 25:08

It's pretty terrifying, to be honest. And obviously, you don't. So there's a chance that Independents will hold the balance of power. And that's gonna make that a very stressful week. But ultimately, and people kept saying, Who will you side with, if if there's a hung parliament? I will go into those to that those negotiations with my platform issues. And it is a negotiation. And with the negotiation, you can't decide what the outcome is going to be before the negotiation, it doesn't work like that. The thing that's terrifying for me is that no matter which, if there's a hung parliament, and I have to make a choice, no matter what I choose, a large proportion of my community will think that I've made the wrong choice. And that is something that I will have to wear. So the only way I can get through that is to do it with integrity and authenticity, and explain my reasoning, and be very clear about that my priority areas, and it will come down to which party I believe, is making the most credible offer on action on climate, and bringing integrity back to our our political system. So I think they are the fundamental issues that will drive that, that decision making. Beyond that, and so the way a hung parliament works, the party with the most votes, then is invited has the opportunity to negotiate with the crossbench to form a minority government. And that means that the crossbench, which would be me, If unsuccessful, agrees not to back a no confidence motion and not to block supply. So government can operate beyond that I would maintain my independence on an issue by issue basis, and then make those decisions about how I'm going to vote based on the interests of my community, and my conscience. And with a long term perspective, so, so that, you know, that's stressful, it's a whole lot more more stressful than just voting, however, your party tells you to vote. But I think it's the more authentic reflection of the complexity of the issues that we face, they don't fit on our left, right spectrum, and everything doesn't fit into oppositional blue versus red. In order to address the major challenges that we're facing, we're going to have to collaborate across party lines beyond ideology, take the good ideas from wherever they come, and, and be willing to, I think, take a mature and long term perspective on those decisions. So that will be what drives me through that period and beyond. Irrespective of whether it's a hung parliament, or it's a Labor government or a Liberal government, I will only be beholden to my community and my conscience,

Sonia Nolan: 27:59

I totally concur that complexity requires complex approaches and responses. They can't be binary responses, which is, you know, sometimes where we, as a society fall into, it's black, or it's white, or it's, you know, it's one way or the other, and there's no in between. and, and as you've said, you know, complexity absolutely requires. And when we talk about complexity, we're talking about all those big issues we're talking about. We're talking about all of those things that are not going to be necessarily solved, but they need to be addressed. And we need to make incremental change and leapfrog change as well. So we need collaboration, we need relationships, we need compassion, and different ways of of looking at these issues with with really new, like we've said earlier, you know, to reimagine what our responses can be. But we need to get into the messiness. And we need to start feeling comfortable with discomfort in the way the world is right now in some of these really big issues. So having our parliament reflect that, with independents who are going to create some form of chaos, if you like, in regards to well, you know, we're gonna have to just talk it through and we're gonna have to think about what all the issues are before we come up with a response and a decision, just gives me so much hope for where we might be able to head

Kate Chaney: 29:28

and I think one of the, a narrative that we're hearing a lot from from the Liberal Party is that it will cause chaos. I just don't think it will. I think that actually, at the moment, Barnaby Joyce holds the balance of power in Australia. If the balance of power is instead held by a small group of people who are there not because they want to be politicians, but because they want to see long term stability and change, you know, in our in addressing the big issues, I think we're going to be in a in a better position. And that I mean, an example is housing policy. And we have a real problem with housing affordability in this country. And that's a great example of a complex issue, because we need to balance the quite valid interests of current homeowners, potential homeowners, renters, and investors. And they've all got, they've all got, you know, something legitimate to say, based on how the system has been has worked till now. And I think we need to go back to the fundamental principle that housing should be about providing homes. But any change we make will need to be done slowly and sensibly so that we are not creating deep pain for people who have those different legitimate concerns. People may have invested their retirement savings in housing and if the tax treatment of that suddently changes it has a big impact on them. They are the sort of complex issues that we need to work work through our competing interests, come back to our basic principles and be driven by those principles, and take community on that journey and collaborate on a vision of what it acutally means in Australia to have a place to live and how we value that. And there are so many examples of that of complexity. Interconnected parts which fit together instead of linear issues and our system is not set up with the two parties to address that sort of complexity.

Sonia Nolan: 31:44

And you're also talking about different stakeholders with different perspectives and that leads me to open up the discussion of the role of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders in our communities and in our solutions and decision making in society. I know that that's something that's really important to you.

Kate Chaney: 32:06

Absolutely. I've worked in a few different roles that have involved me learning a lot about the role of Aboriginal people in Australia and how we can shift that. I think a really good place to start is with constitutional recognition and I draw on my experience at Wesfarmers when I was Aboriginal Affairs Manager and I came in with a really business focus and I was developing a Reconciliation Action Plan for Wesfarmers and it was about Relationships, Respect and Opportunities. And I thought right, we're cutting straight to the Opportunities because we are the largest private sector employer in the country. It's all about jobs. And it took me about a year to really deeply understand that you can't do the Opportunity unless you have started with the Respect and the Relationships. It's a wonderful opportunity. Here in Perth the Noongar culture is one of the largest cultural groups with a continuing culture for 40-60,000 years. What an incredible opportunity to learn from that. Especially around the principles of sustainability and interacting with our land. And I do think there has been a shift lately of people seeing the strength in that rather than as something that didn't quite fit into our world.

Sonia Nolan: 33:34

I think there is an enormous amount of learning and listening which needs to be done, needs to start in that area and I think it is great to hear your own learnings and your own humility and understanding that your own journey started very differently to where it then took you.

Kate Chaney: 33:52

And there are so many examples of that! My cultural awareness journey has really been defined by these moments when the rug was pulled out from underneath me and I suddenly realised that my way of looking at the world was the one that was flawed and just learning about that and realising. An example is when we were developing our employment programmes at Coles and in our pre-employment training for Indigenous people we were talking about, right if someone in the family dies, you can take half a day off for a funeral that's what your leave entitlement is. You can't go and be with your family for three weeks and thinking who'se got this wrong?

Sonia Nolan: 34:39

What's also interesting to me, and I've had a conversation with one of our wonderful Aboriginal Elders in Perth and he said we get invited to come and do the welcome to country which is an important part of what we are learning about the culture and what we are embedding in the way we do things which is fantastic. However he said, you invite us to do the welcome to country, which we do and then you say thank you very much, off you go. Then you have a day of discussion and decision making of which we are not at the table. Really, really good point I thought. We want to be welcomed to then get on with our own business.

Kate Chaney: 35:23

Interesting. Which is why I think a constitutionally enshrined voice resets that expectation and resets that role and is the place to start.

Sonia Nolan: 35:36

And that leads me to social innovation Kate and some of the work that you were doing when you were working in the not for profit sector. So tell me about some of the solutions that are out there that we can start reimagining for, for our society?

Kate Chaney: 35:52

That's a very big question!

Sonia Nolan: 35:53

It's a very big question. So I want to really big answer!

Kate Chaney: 35:56

That's right! So at Anglicare, when I was Director of Innovation and strategy, we were using a human centred design approach to service design, and really thinking about putting people at the centre. And that is something I mean, there are so many things that need to be done differently. And I've got to, I've got to not bite off too much. But, for example, if I look at our welfare system, which is really punitive, and in a lot of ways, traps people in disadvantage, and I think there are amazing opportunities to rethink how we build some of those structures, to put the person in the centre. And for some people, the support that they need to change their own circumstances, isn't going to fit into a nice, neat box on a form that they can take. And we need to be able to personalise that support, and stop treating humans, as widgets that need to fit into our system,

Sonia Nolan: 36:58

you know that that theory keeps coming back to me over and over and over again, everyone I'm talking to, it's this human beings, not human doings, and we're not, we're not just widgets, we are actually living breathing, different diverse, complex, people that have different needs. And we need to really have systems that are responsive, much more than they are now

Kate Chaney: 37:22

there isn't a silver bullet. But we need to be continually challenging how we are implementing anything that government's doing, really, and make sure we're co designing systems and processes and programmes with the people who are affected, so that they are achieving what they're supposed to achieving, rather than creating more barriers.

Sonia Nolan: 37:45

So you're talking back again, collaboration, co-design, compassion, you know, all of those areas that, um, bring us right back to grassroots people, communities. And again, for you the people of Curtin.

Kate Chaney: 37:59

Absolutely, and, and I think, I mean, I'm seeing it in my campaign, but also in my broader work, communities, where the change happens at that very local level. And so place based approaches to anything, I think, I have to be part of the way forward. And during the beginning of the COVID pandemic, we saw this there's green shoots of community engagement, and, you know, streets getting together and supporting each other. At a at a government level, we saw COAG chucked out the window and the National cabinet developed and bipartisan decisions being made. I think it has given us a taste for how things could be. But the the loss of that communitarianism in our society and the rise of individualism at the expense of all else, I think means we we say social exclusion, loneliness, mental health, people need to live in communities, and recognising that and making sure that our systems are supporting that rather than working against that, I think is an important part of how government needs to rethink its role.

Sonia Nolan: 39:15

I'm really excited for you, Kate. And I know you have described your life as one wild and precious life. I've heard you say that and I'm just so excited for your wild and precious life and where it's gonna go in the next few months, and and how it's gonna help shape the Australia for all of our children. So thank you for being my guest on My Warm Table today. I'm wishing you well, and hope that perhaps we can have more conversations down the track to see how everything is unfolding in whatever this next step is for you.

Kate Chaney: 39:49

Thank you very much Sonia. Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Sonia Nolan: 39:56

You've been listening to My Warm Table with Sonia Nolan. In Italian a'tavola calda' is a warm and welcoming table where you can share big ideas, friendship, laughter and life. So much happens around the kitchen table and I wanted to amplify it here in this podcast. My aim is to feed your mind and soul through smart conversations with heart. No topic is off limits but good table manners rule. I hope you'll join us each week as we set the table for my extraordinary guests, who will let you feast on their deep knowledge, life experiences and wise insights. Let's keep the conversation flowing. Please subscribe to the My Warm Table podcast and share it with your friends and networks. Perhaps if they are new to podcasting, take a moment to show them how to download and subscribe so they don't miss an episode either. I'd also love you to join our community on Facebook. You'll find the group at My Warm Table Podcast. Your support is very much appreciated.