Careers after 50 or after serious illness with career counsellor Lois Keay-Smith

Life/Work balance and changing careers after 50 requires a growth mindset.  It can be scary but Career Counsellor Lois Keay-Smith reassures us that our skills and experiences can lead to more fulfilling careers and greater joy in life.  We also explore careers after cancer or serious illness through her Churchill Fellowship research project. 

If you're thinking of a new start in your later years - then this is the episode for you!

You’ll hear:

• What is a career counsellor? (2:00)
• Tricky transitions (3:10)
• Career transitions for elite sportspeople (5:10)
• Inward journey to find a new career fit (8:00)
• Future of work (9:10)
• The crossroads of career changes (11:30)
• Crafting the story of your career and life in a resume (13:00)
• LinkedIn (16:50)
• Working from home (25:30)
• Neurodiversity (28:00)
• Work after 50 and 60 (29:10)
• Belonging and sabbaticals (32:10)
• Going back to a previous workplace (35:00)
• Reinventing after an accident (37:00)
• Churchill Fellowship and careers after cancer (40:00)
• Lois’ Warm Table (50:30)

Duration: 56 minutes.

Links:

Lois’s business: Career Wisdom

Book: Make Your Move by Lois Keay-Smith 

Churchill Fellowship Report: Careers Beyond Cancer by Lois Keay-Smith 

Lois' LinkedIn - connect with her here

Book: The 100 Year Life by Lynda Gratton and Andrew Scott

Book: A Fraction Stronger by Mark Berridge

Canteen a charity for young people affected by cancer 

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Transcript

Lois Keay-Smith: 0:05

That's my philosophy when I work with people is allowing them to have the space and freedom to explore them themselves from a career perspective and say, Well, who am I now because I may have been that person before who am I now? What is out there that interests me or that I could be drawn to and then really working with that and exploring that. So that's a joy. For me. It's a really real a real privilege to work with people closely doing that.

Sonia Nolan: 0:31

Rebuilding a career after 50 Or after serious illness such as cancer is a confronting reality for many. My guest today around my warm table is lowest case Smith, a Churchill fellow, and a career practitioner whose greatest professional joy is to connect these particular groups of people with their innate skills, and help them find their next. Sonia Nolan is my name. And you are very welcome here at my warm table, an Australian podcast of smart conversations with heart inspired by my Italian heritage and the concept of the tavola calda. A warm and welcoming table with curiosity, acceptance, and big ideas feed not just your stomach, but also your mind and soul. Lois, welcome to my warm table.

Lois Keay-Smith: 1:21

Hi Sonia, thank you for having me.

Sonia Nolan: 1:23

Oh, gosh, Lois, we've crossed paths a number of times over the years. And often there are times where you've been able to help me through tricky transitions, or to consider what the next step is. And I know that that's something that you do as part of your professional offering. That's right. There's also a lot more that you do. And I'm really looking forward to exploring that today around around my warm table. Wonderful.

Lois Keay-Smith: 1:46

Thank you, Sonia. Looking forward to it.

Sonia Nolan: 1:47

So let's start by talking about tricky transitions and what your work involves, But you are a wisdom Career Coach, how do you describe yourself?

Lois Keay-Smith: 1:58

It's actually quite tricky to describe myself because the profession has evolved over time. And it's my 16th year actually, as I call myself a career counsellor, a lot of the vernacular around career coaching sometimes means job coaching as an annual as well as career coaching. So it can get a bit confusing at times. The proper term is Career Development Practitioner. That's a bit of a mouthful, it is a bit of a map. And people don't always know what that is either. So I tend to say to people that I help help you navigate often it is tricky transitions, it's helping you navigate through your career, and what I like to term your life work. So maybe rather than your work life, but the life of a first and then what the workout or it is a better, better option.

Sonia Nolan: 2:43

I like that, because that also gives that feeling that your life's work has got some meaning and purpose and that it's values driven. So and I think that that's it's really, really comfortably with the way that you like to look at things. And I like that your life's work.

Lois Keay-Smith: 2:57

Yeah, it's even life work. And then life's work. Exactly. Yeah, there's, there's lots of permutations of that. So I like playing in that space. But I think the tricky transitions, I think I did one first actually, I think that's where I came across the term. I was in corporate relations and in superannuation, and I decided after two years of reading about 20 books that I would become this notional career counsellor. So I went back to school and did a master's degree in career development. And then I decided I would hand back the the corporate fuel card and the company car and the laptop,

Sonia Nolan: 3:31

all the cons or the all, not the cons, the mod cons.

Lois Keay-Smith: 3:34

Exactly. And the salary I'm sad there!. And thesuper, and, and actually try my bit as a as a career counsellor practitioner in private practice. So I was later told why you've changed career, like you've changed your career direction from being in financial services to career development. And you've also changed your mode from employment to self employment. And that was pretty big. But fortunately, I wasn't too aware of that at the time I was. But I wasn't too sort of worried about that, because I really was so passionate about what I was learning. So I did that. But very soon, I found I had a few clients, but it was a little bit slow. And they were mainly from the Financial Services area, because they were the people who knew me most at that time. And I actually ended up working at a local drop in centre in Midland called employment direction for the Midland job link, as it was called then. And employment directions was the branding. And that was amazing. It was like being paid to learn in a lot of ways because I had people who, women who are going back into work that wanting to work on the mines, and they come in and say, Oh, here's my resume, and they'd have like something in my Crimea with no resume interest. I think that's okay. But we need to maybe beef this up a little bit, you know, because you're gonna be up on a mine site. So we had lots of fun, people who'd lost their job, unfortunately, and also young people who I'd be asked to work with who was sometimes at risk. So it was really eclectic, and it was a little bit scary at times as I was new to it, but I really enjoyed it and from that, that was a springboard into working With the Western Force, so that was my sport foray into career development. So I've been really fortunate I've had this career career. Career. So yeah, but working with a really diverse group of people. So athletes, I'm not sporty. I'm dancey. So I somehow managed to get myself in there working with the athletes. That was an amazing experience working, I still work with elite athletes actually, with the Institute of Sport as well and

Sonia Nolan: 5:24

So helping them in their career transitions after they finish their elite sporting career

Lois Keay-Smith: 5:28

that as well as even recognising that can't just be like, Oh, suddenly, I'm on finishing up my sporting career. Oh, wow. What am I going to do? Now? You do hope they've actually thought about it, because they do know that that end is inevitable at some point. Sure. But that's I always used to always say that role was more marketing than it was actually career development, because you had to always be talking about that. But without gloom and doom around it. But like, Hey, what are you doing? You know, let's have a look at is and sort of cajole them along a little bit sometimes, or make it interesting.

Sonia Nolan: 6:00

Yeah. And it's interesting, because I think perhaps some of the common thinking about elite sports is that they all end up in the media, they all end up with commentators on the media, which is something that we see a lot. But obviously, there's a whole lot more behind that in many, many parts other than the media

Lois Keay-Smith: 6:16

Oh, definitely. Yeah. And that's often the, you know, the marquee players and the famous players who maybe get a sponsorship deal or those sorts of things. And then there's everybody else's, the 8020 rule applies pretty much everywhere, and there as well. So definitely, that was a really great experience, working with young people, you know, there's always been a joy for me, I have done a few not for profit roles over time. So was the state manager of a mentoring programme with corporates and then young people and getting them sort of working together and discovering about different careers, because that's sometimes the problem people ring me up sometimes and say, I just want to know what's out there. I think there's a lot out there.

Sonia Nolan: 6:56

It's so frightening, though, isn't it? It's just in especially if you've had what you know, what is known as I guess, a linear career that you've gone straight out of school into a an internship, and you've stayed in the same company for a really long time, or you've stayed in exactly the same sort of role or profession, across different companies, but you haven't necessarily ventured out of those dreams, it's really scary to think about doing something very different for a lot of people

Lois Keay-Smith: 7:24

it is, and most of my clients these days are, I'd say mid life professional career career professionals, and they either just fed up with what they're doing, or it doesn't feel them up anymore. The meaning and purpose is really important. As you said before, we were talking about life's work, and they just did don't quite know. They don't know what's out there. But they also don't know what's in here. And I'm kind of pointing inward at ourselves. There. Yeah. So that's my philosophy, when I work with people is allowing them to have the space and freedom to explore them themselves from a career perspective and say, Well, who am I now because I may have been that person before, who am I now? What is out there that interests me, or that I could be drawn to, and then really working with that and exploring that. So that's a joy. For me, it's a really real a real privilege to work with people closely doing that?

Sonia Nolan: 8:13

Well, I can see the joy that you have in that. And I've seen that over the years lower than and that real warmth and empathy that you bring to your role as well, because that's really important as people are going into it, I guess, an inward journey to really work out what is going to align with who they've become as a mature adult, as opposed to a graduate, which is where they might have started their career.

Lois Keay-Smith: 8:35

That's right, yeah, they're still discovering themselves in that process.

Sonia Nolan: 8:38

Yeah.

Lois Keay-Smith: 8:38

And it's also not just who they are now. And it's also, of course, who they want to become. So it's quite a bit, it can be quite transformational for some people, it can be a little bit transactional for others. It's just like, I'm here, and I need to get over there. Let's look at some tactics. But for those who want to do the deep dive, that that's fun work, you know,

Sonia Nolan: 8:54

yeah. And it's also, of course, the environment has changed, you know, at the world of work, my goodness, it's had an enormous transformation just in the last couple of years with with what COVID has done to the workplace. But also the world of work has changed with technology. And, you know, you name it, and the world of work has changed. And there are statistics, I know, sort of raising children and going to all of those high school talks, and they keep talking about the future world of work and what the future work looks like. And there's, there's all of these jobs that haven't been created yet. And you keep hearing all of this sort of rhetoric, which is actually really the environment we're living in now. The world of work has changed and potentially if you haven't kept up your skills, or you don't have those skills, again, it's really quite confronting,

Lois Keay-Smith: 9:41

yeah, it sure can be and people have to look beyond the traditional realms of you know, necessarily out of school when they need to pay for into uni or those sorts of things. I think, you know, there's a lot to be said for trying out being an entrepreneur, working at different jobs mixing up the money So again, you know, some casual work, which, unfortunately, sometimes that's all you can get when you leave school or leave uni. But in some ways, it allows you to dip your toe in the water early. There's nothing wrong with locking into a linear career, if that's really what you want to do. I think I was surprised early in my career practitioner journey, when I'd have people say, I'm a lawyer, I don't want to be a lawyer anymore. And I'd say, Oh, when did you realise that? And they'd say, second semester?

Sonia Nolan: 10:25

Oh, gosh,

Lois Keay-Smith: 10:26

yes. And that wasn't only once I heard that. Yeah. And, and other professions. So profession sometimes where it's about maybe pleasing, you know, expectations of parents or themselves.

Sonia Nolan: 10:37

Or prestige, or where you think your life your road is supposed to go

Lois Keay-Smith: 10:41

exactly. And sometimes those people are derailed by redundancy. And never Oh, wow, this is a great thing that's happened, but later on, they often come back and say, Wow, yeah, it actually sort of made me wake up and look at myself or when we're doing the work together. And that's, of course, sponsored by a company when that happens often. And they say, I really wish I'd done some of this earlier, because it's actually really good to look at this, you know, and look at this as deeply as we are. So it's interesting, I think we perhaps need to have some road, little stop signs along the roadway of our of our career and say, maybe we stop and reflect I certainly know, it's just people up to the big '0" birthdays, like tend to get in touch

Sonia Nolan: 11:21

40 or 50, or 30. Yeah, yeah, interesting. Absolutely. Well, you know, it was I've always said that, and it's probably completely inappropriate. I'm not politically correct to say this. But you know, I've always said that, as a woman, I know that I had a natural realignment and a natural choice to make to do something differently. When I had children, you know, I went on maternity leave. And during that time, I actually left the workplace, I decided I was not going to go back. And I was going to become self employed and work around my children completely. And my family. So, you know, that was a choice I made. And, and it was sort of this natural moment in time for me to make it and I've reflected often that for men, sometimes they don't have that sort of crossroad in life to make that choice earlier.

Lois Keay-Smith: 12:13

Yeah, that's right. I think that's changing a little. And I think I've the advent of maternity leave, and things like that helps. But certainly, I've had a few younger men, you know, younger is in their 30s actually starting to say, Oh, actually, I want to be over there. You know, and they do want to press pause and look at that. So that's encouraging. I think that's really encouraging. But definitely, there's a natural, you know, we were talking about the tricky transitions before, I think being coming a parent is a tricky transition anyways. But it certainly makes you look at your career. And actually, I really enjoyed my work. I was working in the stock exchange, actually, in corporate relations, when I had my daughter, Sasha, and I took, I think, six months off, and then I was going back part time, but it was just interesting that I think I thought when I go back at it or be Oh, so we all new and different. And it's kind of the same, and I really liked it. But I've been I've been there a while by that stage, and I was ready for a new challenge. So I think sometimes when people think, Oh, you're having a child, so you want something easy or passive or and not then people looking down their nose, sometimes at part time workers, if somehow it's lesser, and then you're not invited to the meeting, or you're not given any PD, I really rally against that. Because sometimes part time people, the hardest working people,

Sonia Nolan: 13:26

I've absolutely known late in my career, for sure, for sure. And it's interesting. Another thing, another conversation we're having just earlier Lois is the the resume and subtext to your resume. And, and I was sharing with you earlier that, you know, my LinkedIn profile, or my resumes show that I've been here for two years, and somewhere else for 18 months and another place for four years and, you know, self employed for 20, 22 years. And you know, so it's quite a, an eclectic sort of representation of the type of work that I've done. But the subtext to that where people say, Oh, you haven't, there's not a lot of stability here, Sonia, you haven't been at various places for very long. But the subtext to a CV these days is, I think, much more interesting about a person than the actual roles that they've had.

Lois Keay-Smith: 14:16

Yes, absolutely. Just adaptability too

Sonia Nolan: 14:19

Well I think so

Lois Keay-Smith: 14:20

I think a lot of that is in the eye of the beholder. And I certainly noticed a shift from having been self employed and then delving into some kind of state manager role and few others manager roles along the way. I had quite a portfolio career for a while before being really fully fully in my business full time. And I just noticed that people would look at the fact that I've been self employed maybe 10 or 15 years ago and go oh, she's self employed. Maybe she won't take direction or some sort of and yeah, then it seemed to turn and it was like, Oh, good, well, you'll know all about this, this and this and you'll be able to, you know, run this operationally and I'm thinking okay, you know, that there was just that understanding that to run a business is actually quite hard. And you need to really push everything yourself and make sure you're really resilient and proactive. And you need to be across a lot of things. So I think people recognise, there's a lot of general skills that come from it, and many, many transferable skills, some that you really wish you didn't have.

Sonia Nolan: 15:21

Very true. But it does also come back to the hiring manager in this case. And I think that that's, again, my experience is that someone looked at my resume, and I was, you know, down to the last interviews, and he says, Oh, you look a bit scatty. And I just thought, wow, that's never a term I would ever have used about my career or my approach to professional contribution. But because I'd had so many different places in and out, it looked to him who'd had a linear career for 40 years in one role, or one organisation, it came across as not necessarily a serious contender. So so the hiring manager, yeah, sure, that's bias. But there's also the hiring manager, a candidate, you need to be able to really sell yourself and your skills, your transferable skills, and your your abilities. And what all of those changes can contribute to that workplace

Lois Keay-Smith: 16:10

100% agree, it is all about crafting the story. And and that's why there are wonderful people who love doing that. I've funny, I come from corporate relations, and I've done many, many resume my time working with my clients, I now tend to more teach my clients how to do that. And then I have some wonderful people who can help with the with the writing and the crafting of the story. But I think LinkedIn plays a big part in that now because people want more readily go there to check you out. So that 'About' section some people may not be aware that that's a lot longer now than it used to be. It's almost an a4 page size of text. And some people just have a really like a little short paragraph, which you'd normally have at the top of a resume is a bit of an intro for yourself. But that About section, you can really expand on that, tell a bit more of your story, put it inject a bit of your personality into it, tell them a little bit about what makes you tick and who you are. So with your examples Sonia, you know, weaving the story and the theme. Yes, I've done lots of things in these different guises. And this is what it's made. This is how it's made me you know, this and this and this, you can kind of kind of craft your story into into that about section.

Sonia Nolan: 17:17

It's a bit like what we were saying earlier about the subtext of your CV, that might be the place where you can actually start injecting some of that. Yeah, great. Yes. Yeah, really good tip

Lois Keay-Smith: 17:26

LinkedIn is very powerful. And sometimes I hear from younger people, or, you know, parents who say that the young people aren't on LinkedIn, or that they think, Oh, is that worth it? And, look, it's changing a lot. And it's becoming, they're all becoming, the platforms becoming more like each other. I sometimes don't know which one I'm on.

Sonia Nolan: 17:43

Yeah. I've felt that too

Lois Keay-Smith: 17:45

yeah, there's a lot of the influencer influence coming through. But at the same time, that one is essential. You know, like, if you're going to be yet wanting people to find you want to be findable on there. It's not just about splashing yourself around and, and posting a lot. It's actually about being findable. So keywords and all of those things actually realising Why am I on there? Who do I want to attract? So that's important as well,

Sonia Nolan: 18:07

really good tips. And in fact, in another life, I tutor at university level, and I have always told my students, please get on LinkedIn, once the semester is over, connect with me, don't connect with me during semester because I can't alter your marks. So after semesters over, connect with me, and they're also a bit like, I don't know, because we're only students. And I'm saying, but what you can actually do is start making your connections and start following the people or the organisations that you are interested in

Lois Keay-Smith: 18:38

exactly.

Sonia Nolan: 18:39

So that you've got a bit of an insight into when they're hiring when the traineeships and the graduate programmes come up. I said, you're actually looking at the moment you're just learning. So use LinkedIn as a really good tool for that. So yeah, I totally hear what you're saying.

Lois Keay-Smith: 18:54

And in a candidate's market. It's also about employer branding. So the companies that are on LinkedIn and using it really effectively, they look at who follows them and then they'll put out our look, we know we're doing an extra round of arm applications or something like that. They may only put it out to those people who advertise it there as their primary place. So employers are getting very savvy to a low cost way to find really good people quickly

Sonia Nolan: 19:18

interesting! Oh, there's a really good tip already. So if you're not on LinkedIn, definitely get on there. If you are on there, have a little review of your about section and put a little bit more heart and soul and personality into that. Yeah, fantastic. Lois. I'd like to talk more about the transition after 50 Because

Lois Keay-Smith: 19:44

I am qualified to speak on this sadly

Sonia Nolan: 19:46

so am I sadly so am I qualified to speak on this? And I'm all ears listening because I do know many friends and work work colleagues who you know, come to the like you're saying the big 'O' birthdays, but I think something happens after 50. And it feels harder to get a job despite all the wisdom and talents and skills and opportunities that you've had that you can bring to a workplace, it feels harder.

Lois Keay-Smith: 20:15

It does

Sonia Nolan: 20:16

Tell me what the reality is.

Lois Keay-Smith: 20:17

Yeah. And it's funny, isn't it? Because we're in a market and not in all sectors and not in all industries. But right now we're in a market that's quite advantageous to the candidate. So age becomes less of an issue there because they really want someone and they want someone with skills and they want them now. So that's a good thing. But I do you remember, a few years ago now, probably before I was at that prestigious age, I do remember a client who who was a little bit over 50. And she she had a really great background in comms and was trying to get into particular industry. And she was just finding that she was getting turned away, because the hiring people were internal recruitment, people were so young, and they were just looking at her as if she was ancient, which is horrifying.

Sonia Nolan: 21:06

Oh look I've had that look, it's very, very disconcerting,

Lois Keay-Smith: 21:10

even to the point where and this this woman was award winning. She, you know, she was really good at her craft, even to the point where she was asked, Do you know how to turn a computer on? Do you know how to use a computer? Yeah, so So I think I think we've got a lot of work to do, I think we've been maybe the silent generation, we've just been head down, you know, doing our work and

Sonia Nolan: 21:30

Generation X

Lois Keay-Smith: 21:31

we are totally the flattened generation.

Sonia Nolan: 21:33

Totally! That's a whole other podcast

Lois Keay-Smith: 21:37

Exactly. But I think that's so part of the problem is maybe hindsight, but our own in terms of being able to articulate what we have to offer, I am often working with people who are either changing their career direction, or getting a new job, and they haven't ever interviewed or they interviewed 20 years ago. So there's a lot of that kind of, well, they were just no my skills, and here's my resume, and they should just No, no, you've actually got to, you know, be able to look at that and work out what you it's not about you, it's about how you fit to them. And you've got a lot of work to do there. And, and some people that's a bit of a revelation for them, and others know that but they're just doing it well, but finding the doors are closing on them because the company maybe wants to bring in someone younger that they can train up in their way. That is the bias. Look, I'm not going to say that doesn't exist. But I think we also have to work on our own attitude as well. And I think sometimes the the silver lining can be people who decide they want to have a bit more lifestyle, they may go portfolio and when I say that it's a blend, often of perhaps a contract or some part time work that's solid, and you get your soup and you get your days off and all of that good stuff. It's your bread and butter. But also you may be consult and my silvers are coming through and I can charge more apparently, because I've got you know, wisdom silver wisdom. So exactly silver tinsel some silver tinsel wisdom in my hair. So you know, we joke about these things, but actually, we do have a lot of wisdom. And we do have a lot of things to offer. And, and so do young people. So everyone, wherever they're at has to market their energy, and their contribution and, and the good stuff about them. And sometimes that's hard to do for yourself. So often when I'm working with people, they're like, oh, wow, I didn't realise I had that. Oh, that's right. So sometimes we're our own worst enemy, when it comes to thinking about how we will present ourselves to the marketplace, but also what we can do. And not just saying I couldn't do I'm you know, too old or wouldn't be able to learn that. It's amazing what we can learn. My dad in his 70s learned how to tile a small piece in the in the bathroom, because no one would come and quote, just go on YouTube. And he didn't he learned how to do it. And you know, like, we can all learn things if we really want to, and we're motivated.

Sonia Nolan: 23:49

It's a growth mindset, isn't it?

Lois Keay-Smith: 23:51

Absolutely is

Sonia Nolan: 23:51

the most important any candidate that you're looking for actually having somebody who is willing to try and give something a go?

Lois Keay-Smith: 24:01

Yeah, absolutely. But I think it's also it's definitely about employers opening their mind too, I'd really like to see more job share. And that could be a person who's got a young family, you know, he's come back from parental leave wants to do the two or three days with someone who's maybe 60 ish or whatever. It doesn't matter what age but like, got different reasons for maybe wanting flexibility. I certainly many of my friends are self employed. And most of them actually hand on heart say they are unemployable because they've enjoyed being so long. I've got the flexibility and freedom that they actually don't think they can kind of, you know, go in and be told, you know, you can't have this break at this time or you can't have that holiday or whatever. So that's a funny thing to consider. But what I do enjoy I'm kind of getting back to the life dash work, that side of things. Really work life balance is what it used to be called but I'm calling it life work because you're putting life first. And certainly for me, you know had some health challenges that I never I never expected because we will just think we're going to be super healthy forever. And it's a bit of a shock to us. So I know I've definitely for me, I've gone back to my dancing, that's my passion. And I actually put in my week, right, I've got that class and that class and,

Sonia Nolan: 25:13

and then prioritise according to what is really important to Yeah, and

Lois Keay-Smith: 25:17

I can fit everything else around it. Unfortunately, sometimes some of my clients, they're professionals they're working, they can't always work daytime hours with me. So we work over zoom, and that can be early evening. So it all works. Well, you know. So I think I think many of us and I say that from younger people, right up to more mature people, is that we want flexibility, and we want to be more control over our life. And we're still going to give 150% or 110%, over many percentages, and we want to give energy wise to our work, but we just want to be able to call the shots a bit on how that looks. And employers are realising that, of course, arent they at the moment,

Sonia Nolan: 25:55

I think that obviously COVID has certainly given them a real shot in the arm in regards to embracing flexibility and embracing, you know, a different type of contribution from people based on, you know, where they're at, and what they can give, because, gosh, all those parents who had to homeschool during COVID, as well as try and contribute professionally, I absolutely think they all deserve a medal because that that is hard at the best of times. So you know, we've all had to really adapt and do things very differently that we could never have foreseen a few years ago. So the leaps and bounds we've made in, in technology and and embracing that remote work, I think is a really positive thing for this life work. I do sort of still wonder about how productivity works in that in some instances.

Lois Keay-Smith: 26:47

Yeah, I think that's very personal. And when I work with people around, we call it almost like they work ingredients if we were bringing in the cooking now. The soup which is one thing I can cook, I'm not very good cook, but I can make a soup is you know, there's lots of ingredients that are going into that pot. And I think that's the thing is that some people say Oh, I like to be in a loud and fun environment. That's how I vibe. That's how I work. That's how I enjoy my work get my creativity, and others just completely hate it. I've had clients where we've said, Okay, you're in an open office just cannot work like that, can you get some noise cancelling headphones and just take them off and have a quick chat at the watercooler and then put them on? And it's almost like working out how can you survive not to thrive? But even unfortunately, sometimes it's it's survival of them in that place, which is a shame. But yeah, it's about people creating that environment for themselves. And I think a lot of people are talking now about the hybrid, you know, working from home if they can, and obviously not all industries can do that. But if they can, having a bit of a variety to their, to their week,

Sonia Nolan: 27:51

yes. Yeah, for sure. I think there's also this element. And I spoke to someone recently about neurodiversity, and, and in fact, saw a post on LinkedIn just this morning about a woman whose husband was neurodiverse. And they were talking about the fact that there some people just need to work from home more. And that is absolutely the best place to be productive. So it's embracing all of that, isn't it

Lois Keay-Smith: 28:17

for sure. Absolutely And it just isn't as cookie cutter. It's not like you all fit into these slots. And you will do it this way. It's kind of saying how's this going to work the best for everybody. And you're going to have people that are really loyal and stay longer and advocate and bring other people into the business because they're trusted and their strengths and interests are utilised as well. You know that I think that's a big part of it is also a lot more job crafting I think we'll we'll hopefully see in the future. I've worked with some neurodiverse clients and yeah, it's a real privilege because it's, there's, I always have the philosophy there is space for everybody to do something and it's finding out what they want to do. It's it's finding out and sometimes creating it in the marketplace, which can be a little bit challenging. And yeah, obviously with technology and the future of work, which is really now an ever evolving, it takes effort and and companies need to be open to that and individuals need to be open to different ways of working and trying things out testing, experimenting. Yep.

Sonia Nolan: 29:23

I'd like to circle back to this idea of work after 50 Tricky transitions and what's next, but 50 and 50s and 60s. So there are times in your life where you are still in a position where you've got an enormous amount to contribute and wants to contribute and have the energy and activity and potentially the financial need to contribute. It's also a time when you might be challenged by having to care for ageing parents or potentially still have your children around to raise

Lois Keay-Smith: 29:57

the sandwich generation

Sonia Nolan: 29:58

the sandwich generation for And also then something you alluded to earlier, you know, out of the blue, even though you're young and sprightly, there are these health challenges that confront you and things that you would never have expected that you need to deal with. So I'd love your insights into how to manage the over 50 and 60 year old transitions and keeping a professional contribution. While trying to juggle all of those life experiences at the same time,

Lois Keay-Smith: 30:28

I definitely think it does come back to life work and the design of that wherever you can, but it is a tricky one, I think some people listening and maybe have a corporate career or you know, employed, others have that portfolio or some are self employed. So I think everyone comes with their different view on it. A great book is called the 100 year life.

Sonia Nolan: 30:47

Oh, yes, yeah.

Lois Keay-Smith: 30:48

And I love that book, because it actually talks about the fact that Yeah, I mean, definitely, you know, we can have health challenges that are obviously any age, but they suddenly start coming in and that, you know, that halfway point, if you want to call it that of the 100 year life, if that's if you're lucky enough to get that many years. So some points in the book, they just raised the fact that we are genuinely living longer, and there is so much help and medicine and all of the things that keep us younger longer. So I tend to think a lot more people will want to work or elect to work longer, and many will have to, you know, it's one of those things. I think, when I'm working with people, the hope is that they actually find something that they really enjoy doing get a lot of satisfaction from contribute to that they're not necessarily looking to draw a line in the sand and go fishing, you know, nothing against people that want to go fishing. That's great if that's your passion.

Sonia Nolan: 31:41

But what I found, well, you know, for my limited experience, and people who have retired, they retire for maybe two years have the best time they're all over Facebook with their grey Nomad experiences or their overseas travels and all of the things they've been saving up to do. And then they come back, and they want to come back to the workplace and in a part time capacity. So it's almost like retirement was about doing those bucket list items

Lois Keay-Smith: 32:07

Yes absolutely

Sonia Nolan: 32:08

but once they've been done. They're actually really craving that professional stimulation again.

Lois Keay-Smith: 32:13

Yeah. And again, it comes back to values and things that people want to have in their work. And belonging is a huge one. And we know, we've talked about loneliness and other things like that. So and that can come in even with the hybrid working model of working from home, some people actually feel lonely. So I think that that's part of it as well. I'm all for more sort of sabbaticals, and shorter stints and really, as you were saying Sonya with your forays into different thing. My family were going off 13 years ago, now it's flown by, but we went for nearly six months overseas and went back to our homeland of Scotland, and went on the Channel Tunnel to Paris. And then we just, you know, we mostly did train travel and went to a lot of a lot of different countries. So we did to my husband's the cook in our family. So he did develop the Tuscan chicken when we were in Tuscany,

Sonia Nolan: 33:03

Perhaps you can share that recipe with us.

Lois Keay-Smith: 33:04

Thatòs a very good recipe. I have to wrestle it out of him. But yeah, that was amazing. So you know, we did that. And that was great. And I actually visited some organisations, I visited the career transition for dancers in New York when I was there. So I actually did a few did all kinds of visits and things along the way. But that wasn't me, it was mainly just for fun. But we did do a little bit of work as well, because we were able to work. We were called laptop nomads. That's what we call ourselves. And they were really physically heavy, big laptops during those 13 years ago. Yeah. And Airbnb hadn't quite started. So I'm amazed. We actually used to just put into Google, Wi Fi Tuscany villa in that order, so that we'd get somewhere with good Wi Fi so that we could still do some work. We didn't do a whole lot of work. Well, I didn't. But no, it was amazing. We just had an absolute ball. So I think doing things like that or think saying I'm going to take some time off to say write your book or launch your podcasts or whatever it might be awesome. I think having more of that life work where you say, This is my life. It's my one precious life. And what do I want to do with it? People can ask for those breaks or make those breaks or even if it's a couple of months or six months. And I think sometimes that's maybe better than a big long stretch of trying out retirement and then saying actually, I want to go back now. There's nothing wrong with going back.

Sonia Nolan: 34:24

You know, there isn't an end it's being intentional about those breaks, isn't it and and really knowing that you need you want to be doing something a little bit different, but not i i always say Never say never, never is a very big word.

Lois Keay-Smith: 34:39

Yeah.

Sonia Nolan: 34:39

And you just don't know what's around the corner that's going to lead you down a path that you've been travelling or want to travel or it's never thought you travel. Never say never,

Lois Keay-Smith: 34:50

for sure. And actually even on that point, sometimes even going back to somewhere you've worked before I'm seeing more of that and I think Finance Review had an article around And we'll call it the boomerang employees. But I tend to call it the rise of the returnee. And I think it's a very conscious decision that some people make to say, I'm going to go back and work. I know, I met a lady. She was a lawyer, and she went back to a firm, but she worked there 10 years before. And we were chatting about it and saying, Well, you're different. They're different. Some of the law is different. And I like this. And she said, yeah, it's actually really great. It was great before, but it's very different. But it's still really good. You know, and, and the thing is, she is known to them, the characters are known, you know, there's lots of new people there as well new energy. And we're in different times, so I think, yeah, exactly. Sonia don't never say never. And I think that can sometimes mean like circling back to things and, and for me, that's a bit like me circling back to my dance. Like that was actually my first dream job.

Sonia Nolan: 35:47

Oh, really?

Lois Keay-Smith: 35:48

Yeah. When I were when I was at school, I was in a dance troupe and through my dance school, which was outside of school, but um, yeah, and amazing to get paid. I think I can't remember how much we got paid, I think was like $20, a dance or something. And I was maybe in two or three, we do these corporate gigs and things. But I also worked for TreasurerWay, which I don't know if your treasurer treasurer. So I, you know, so I had my sort of, you know, my retail a casual job where I had to break up fights in the manchester department at sale time, and things like that, you know, about the bouncer of manchester. And then I'd have my dance career was very glamorous. So it was kind of fun to think back of that and say, wow, you know, I got a chance to do those sorts of things early. So I think, you know, young people try and test things out. But in a way, don't lose that. When you're more mature. And that the other end, I think it's a time to rediscover, it's a time to experiment and find people who can support you on the journey, whether that's like me doing that deep dive or, or mentors or just people that you can hang out with or join a meetup group or you know, whatever it is,

Sonia Nolan: 36:51

it's really important. But what is really interesting to me, and I've just recently read a book called A Fraction Stronger by Mark Berridge fantastic book, and

Lois Keay-Smith: 37:00

I'm going to put on my list,

Sonia Nolan: 37:01

I'm going to be having a smart conversation with heart in here with Mark in time to come as well. And he had to reinvent himself after a cycle, a very serious cycling accident. And so it's an he writes about, and I've got a good friend who's also recently said the same thing. So it's interesting how you know, sort of things start to echo when you you're on a path, that he needed to find the new him. So yes, there's so much of our own identities, which are often wrapped up in our professional lives. And trying to extricate who we are outside of our work titles is sometimes really difficult,

Lois Keay-Smith: 37:39

definitely.

Sonia Nolan: 37:40

And when you are not able to go back to that work title, having to find who the new you is, and embracing a whole new person, because you're not identifying with the title anymore, is a really big thing for people.

Lois Keay-Smith: 37:56

Yeah, it can be very scary. And I guess that's why we said earlier that the tricky transitions, but also being willing to look at yourself that way, and be open, and then be curious and explore and then start testing. And a lot of the time, I find my clients are very fixated on the what, like, what am I going to do next? And absolutely, that's why they often engage me, but we do look beyond that to the who? Not not the rock band. But the who?

Sonia Nolan: 38:26

Now that's really dating us Lois. We don't know, who the who is_!

Lois Keay-Smith: 38:30

That's probably my parents, I'm sure. But the who around who's going to be walking this path with me? Or who can be a mentor who can support me who can I support, you know, so really, the networks and the connections and the relationships and people that have worked for quite a number of decades, have an amazing treasure trove of wonderful people around them. Sometimes they have lost contact. And again, that's where things like LinkedIn, or engaging with your professional associations, or exploring new ones, or going to things and showing up showing up in the world

Sonia Nolan: 39:03

showing up and reaching out, it's sort of coming back into a vulnerable state. But it's so important in order to reinvent, isn't it?

Lois Keay-Smith: 39:11

Yeah, definitely. And, you know, when we're talking about tricky transitions and age before, you know, I was, I was fortunate to be awarded a Churchill fellowship.

Sonia Nolan: 39:20

Yeah, I want to talk about that

Lois Keay-Smith: 39:21

in 2019. And it was really lovely, because I've had a couple of people reach out to me, because that was mentioned on LinkedIn, and in your own, open up about their experiences with cancer and then saying, Well, you know, I've suddenly had this diagnosis and then having to really look at my work, maybe pulling back timewise while I have treatment, and then some of them saying actually, I don't know if I want to go back to that anymore.

Sonia Nolan: 39:45

So tell us about that. Churchill fellowship, please Lois was because it is something that I did want to explore with you and find out more about Yeah, because you've got a wonderful report that you've done that's on your website, which we'll put a link to,

Lois Keay-Smith: 39:59

and it's also on the out on the churchill site Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, it was a funny thing I knew about the Churchill fellowship, I can't remember when I first came across it, but I was aware of it, and went along to an information session and kind of thought, oh, and you know, saw a few people that walked in and thought, oh, gosh, you know, bit of imposter syndrome probably kicked in at that point. And so are you know, I'm not sure if I have a topic really yet. But I was very lucky to work for a little while with them. Redkite, I was one of the first career practitioners around Australia to start working with young people 15 to 24 years old, who had a cancer diagnosis, and they needed some support, perhaps with study, are they going to keep studying, are they going to change study, work if they were working, all of that sort of stuff. So I was called an education career support consultant in that in that role as part time when I ran my practice at the same time. And that was just an absolute privilege during that job. I absolutely loved it. It was such an honour. The young people were just beautiful, beautiful people to work with fun and challenging. And yeah, just everything was just great. So that really gave me a bit of a fire in the belly around the fact that those services had had to sort of age out at some point as not for profits have to do they have to sort of draw the line in the sand and say, this is funded up till this point

Sonia Nolan: 41:16

up to the age of 25. Or age of 18.

Lois Keay-Smith: 41:18

Exactly, yeah. And Canteen now run that service for young people. Yeah, I guess I just thought, wow, what about 26 pluses and started researching that, and I thought this is something that's happening around the world is adult. So you know, career services for adults, but there doesn't seem to be anything dedicated in Australia. So that's what I decided to do. I actually did apply. And then my second go at it, I got it. So timing, timing being what it was, that meant 2019 I was awarded, and then of course, it was going to go in 2020. And then of course COVID, reared its head and and that didn't happen. And you know, the church, your trust was very generous with that cohort and the following cohort to say, look, you know, you can wait, and you can wait, and, and I could sort of see this was this was going on and on and on the pandemic, you know, kind of almost had exactly the crystal ball. But I thought this is not looking like a quick thing to me. And this is important work.

Sonia Nolan: 42:13

So just taking a step back that the Churchill Fellowship is a really prestigious award or scholarship programme for people to around the world to submit a study area and go on a sabbatical, which is funded by the Churchill Trust. Yeah, that's right. And it often takes you around the world, because that's the idea of connecting ideas around the world in the topic that you're looking to research.

Lois Keay-Smith: 42:41

The slogan is to learn globally and inspire locally. So it's about learning from others, usually overseas, and then bringing that knowledge back and applying it in Australia. So I had been to all the places I was going to travel to by virtue of previous travel still would have been an amazing thing to do in

Sonia Nolan: 43:00

their real purpose for going

Lois Keay-Smith: 43:02

Yeah what I decided to do was do it virtually, which was on offer, and I met some amazing people had some very long, late night conversations at a time, and you know, recording them on Zoom, and then using Otter to translate, and then diving through all the information and reading stuff and watching things or being on conferences and stuff like that. So I had a great experience and immersion of it.

Sonia Nolan: 43:24

Which countries did you engage with?

Lois Keay-Smith: 43:26

So New Zealand, USA, Canada, and England and Scotland, which Yeah, it was lovely to talk with beats and cancer charity in Scotland and their representatives. It's really, really great. So So I learned different things from all of them. And it was interesting to see that the model of deliveries were different in every case.

Sonia Nolan: 43:44

And these were models of delivery for support.

Lois Keay-Smith: 43:48

Services. Yeah, yeah. And actually even even the scope was very different. Some were very psychosocial support quite holistic and wide. And then others were very, I guess, you know, targeted support. That was something like a resume review, and then resources you could download and then conferences and supported, you know, seminars and things like that. So some of it was a little bit closer on one on one in small groups and other others was a bit more resource based.

Sonia Nolan: 44:17

And was this all for young people who were all in cancer looking to engage in the workplace? Or was it all ages,

Lois Keay-Smith: 44:25

all ages, but more more towards the adult side? Because there are quite a few charities that operate globally that are dedicated to young people, conferences, and there's various some interactions for young people and when

Sonia Nolan: 44:38

I say young people sort of meaning 18 sort of young adult

Lois Keay-Smith: 44:41

Yeah, I think in Australia we have that sort of 15 to 24, 25, 26 seems to be the cut off some some countries overseas take that up to 30. But yeah, my intention certainly wasn't to cross over any services that canteen now offer it was to sort of when they end what we know how can we serve those people so so that that was amazing experience. In the middle of all of that I actually I was offered to a meeting and got a phone call missed three calls from my GP and went, Oh, dear, that doesn't look good. And I had a little pink bar on the back of my leg that I thought I just added that onto the you know, the shopping list that you go up with. And I just said, Oh, this is funny looking thing. I was sort of on the back of my leg. I can't really even see it. But there it is. And that turned out to be a melanoma. So, so suddenly, I was researching careers after cancer, and I was offered bloods on there, I was looking up the resources for self employed people thinking, Oh, this is actually kind of really high variation research.

Sonia Nolan: 45:36

Yeah, a very personal twist.

Lois Keay-Smith: 45:37

Yes. Yeah. So I had surgery for that. And fortunately, it hadn't spread. And, yeah, I had no skin grafts all sorts of things. So I was, I was sort of up in my bed. Getting looked after in my turret, as I call it, my meals are brought up to me. And yeah, it was an interesting time. But it did make me think I wasn't on chemo or any of those extended things. Touchwood. like, like some of my colleagues and people that I met through that process, but still, it gave me that insight to go, wow, that could have been a lot worse. But even when I couldn't really work that many days and most of my work,

Sonia Nolan: 46:10

A real deeper empathy for the topic you're looking at.

Lois Keay-Smith: 46:13

Definitely. Yeah. So even sitting upright and leaning into the screen as I worked with people that hurt, you know, that was quite hard to do. So I really felt for people who don't have much leave or work, you know, in certain industries, where that's, that's difficult. So it did give me those insights. So yeah, so I'm now at this phase of published the paper, and that's on the Churchill Trust website. And then now just looking in having some conversations with people and looking at my next steps for that. But I do want to help people, especially those who decide they want something more like they've gone through that experience. And as a result, they want to look at what's there next, then next is another tricky transition.

Sonia Nolan: 46:54

So in your report, you said that in Australia each year 39% of 144,000, people diagnosed with cancer, aged 25 to 65,

Lois Keay-Smith: 47:04

which is the cohort I was sort of looking at.

Sonia Nolan: 47:06

Yeah. And yet there are no dedicated comprehensive cancer specific career services for these adults. Yes. So what were some of the recommendations that you came up with through your report?

Lois Keay-Smith: 47:16

Yeah, I think some of the key things were definitely about having a resource that's Australian, because there's a lot of really, really good resources out there. But when you're talking employment and employment laws and services that are available, obviously, it doesn't apply to a lot of people in Australia. And you know, there is some information, but it's mainly like a fairly brief or like, enable corroboration, that sort of thing. So definitely having some resources or services that people can go through, but also, ultimately, some support that people can get either one on one or in group, but supported and, and that's stuff I do in my practice. So I'm finally looking at Yeah, how can I help I did to come up with recommendation of looking at collaborations and working in there's a there's many good cancer charities already. It wasn't necessarily my intention to start another yet another charity, it was it was about helping resource, the ones that are already out there that do great psychosocial support, but maybe haven't looked at this area before. So I'm having some discussions in that, in that guise to do that. But also collaboration and with a multidisciplinary approach. And one of the things that came out of my research and discussions with people that it was amazing that people from HR came from one perspective, and the people that came from the psych came from that perspective, and then everyone's got their slant on it, which is great. And it was, you know, it's diverse, but I think yeah, we can we can do so much more if we pull together then sort of standing that corner defending a corner. So my personal interests with this, for what I'll most likely add value to this area is the people who say, I want a different next, but I don't know what that is, because that's my sort of sweet spot in terms of what I really helping people with. So, yeah, so it's very exciting. And I'm kind of, it's almost like I did the virtual journey. And now I'm kind of doing a new new journey of discovery and talking with people. But I think there's a lot of opportunity in that space and a lot of ways I can contribute and join with other people. So if you're listening and you want to contribute or you know, get in touch, please do.

Sonia Nolan: 49:19

Oh, that's exciting. So it sounds like a new next for you as well.

Lois Keay-Smith: 49:22

Yeah, it is a bit. it's another, it's almost like rings of bark on the tree. I think for me, there's always the core, but there's always new areas. And you know, and in some ways when we talk about those tricky transitions, there's so many of those in different guises. You know, we've talked a little bit about about mums returning or people getting to the zeros and the 50 as a special one

Sonia Nolan: 49:42

having to step out like I did to support my mom through, you know, health issues, and there's just saying the subtext of a person's career resume is far more interesting sometimes than the work that they've done.

Lois Keay-Smith: 49:55

Yes, exactly. And, you know, I think everyone's journey is unique and That's why it can be a bit tricky in this space. Because I think the more personalised you go, the more impact you can have yet the scope to help many, many people, you know that that's the tricky part to look at. But I hope there's probably room for hybrid offers and hybrid services. So that's that's what I'm keen to explore a bit more as well.

Sonia Nolan: 50:24

Lois. Now to your warm table. You did mention earlier in our chat that your husband has perfected a Tuscan chicken recipe

Lois Keay-Smith: 50:33

that is correct, yes, that gets rolled out on very special occasions. That that's beautiful. And that was from our big trip that we did overseas. And we were in this little villa in Barga in Tuscany. And it created this dish, I'm not quite sure what caused him to but it probably was just because we were loving the countryside, he was inspired. So So I'm very, very fortunate because as I say, pots of soups about my length, and things

Sonia Nolan: 50:56

You are not the chef at home,

Lois Keay-Smith: 50:57

I'm definitely not the chef at home. So our warm table. Yeah, fortunately, there's one person that houses you know, happy to contribute to that, and others are helpful or help a little bit as well. But it's funny, actually, when you think of the table and the things that get dumped there, you know, during the day and that sort of thing. And I think now my sun had to take over the all these big hats now, of course, because I'm extra careful in the sun. And so there's, there's all sorts of things that get moved around. But it's interesting, I love your concept I love I love the warm table. And it had it caused me to reflect on the fact that in some ways in our little family thereòs, the three of us that our little dog, and sadly, she passed fairly recently, our dog Zoe, she's almost like the warm table because, like the four legs and the end, and wherever she was in the house, we would all gravitate towards her. She'd be in the middle, we'd all you know, maybe chatting, and she'd be always the centre of attention, you know, getting getting cuddles and things like that. So. So it's interesting that that's almost a little warm table is the dog. So we're feeling a little bit. Yeah, you know, sad at the moment, because we don't

Sonia Nolan: 51:59

no, really very, very sad and, you know, again, have there's been so much research about the loss of a pet

Lois Keay-Smith: 52:06

is huge,

Sonia Nolan: 52:07

equally as significant as the loss of a family member that in some cases even more so for people

Lois Keay-Smith: 52:13

Yeah, yeah. And definitely we you know, definitely called her a family member. That's what we would do so yeah, so yeah, that's been tough, but thank you. And yeah, at some point soonish we will have a new addition to the family with four legs.

Sonia Nolan: 52:29

You're going to be puppy parents again.

Lois Keay-Smith: 52:30

Exactly. Yes.Yeah, exactly. That'd be very exciting.

Sonia Nolan: 52:34

But it is interesting how that warm table concept means so many different things to people. Yes. And I love your take on it. I really do.

Lois Keay-Smith: 52:42

Yeah, I mean, I definitely thought of food probably more so with my Scottish upbringing is my parents always did they call it brunch now but I think back in the day it was it was the Scottish fry up on the Scottish on a Sunday morning and that was awesome. And it was even black pudding which most people are probably going to the UK at this moment in time listening to

Sonia Nolan: 53:00

this what's in a fry up from

Lois Keay-Smith: 53:02

like Black Pudding might have sausages egg I baked beans is definitely in there. It can have the bacon, I think the thing that I really liked was the Scottish drops gone. So effectively a pancake or pike what we would call it we would call a pikelet, I learned how to do that when I was Scottish kind of like me when I was six, I had to put on this Aussie accent so people could even understand what I was saying. But a pikelet That was then, like fried up again, you know, so it's really great for the arteries. But anyway, so that's sort of Scottish crap. So Ed kindly carries on that tradition in our home now because my parents always did it. Yeah. And whether we were in Scotland or we were here because we bounced around a little bit early in the early days. And then we settled here for the good old Scottish fry up. Not usually any haggis in that that's that's just once a year.

Sonia Nolan: 53:50

Probably a good thing, but you do do that. You do eat haggis.

Lois Keay-Smith: 53:52

Yeah, we do occasionally. Yeah. Been to have quite a few Scottish knights and suppers and things like that. So yeah, we keep the heritage alive a little bit. We're definitely Aussies. You know, we're all naturalised all these.

Sonia Nolan: 54:03

Yeah. But it's so important to keep those traditions alive because they do just connect you with a whole different sense and memory and time, don't they?

Lois Keay-Smith: 54:11

For sure.

Sonia Nolan: 54:12

It's been such a pleasure to have you around my warm table. Thank you so much for dropping in. And you came with beautiful biscuits, some some Scottish biscuits, some shortbread and some Italian Florentine. So you just you captured us both, which was just delightful.

Lois Keay-Smith: 54:28

Thank you for the lemons.

Sonia Nolan: 54:29

Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. It's been just a delight to sit and talk. Thank you for enlightening us on the fact that we can all have a next if we get our mindset right, we can actually have another another crack at a professional career which might look completely different to anything we've done in the past. And congratulations on your Churchill Fellowship because that is an enormous achievement, and what you have researched and pull together for all of us to be able to grow and learn From and bring to Australia with your research is going to be really meaningful for people who have suffered from cancer and actually then moved on into the next phase. So thank you for that, too. Lois. I've really loved having you here to talk with today.

Lois Keay-Smith: 55:16

Thank you, Sonia. It's been amazing. Thanks

Sonia Nolan: 55:18

Thank you. You've been listening to My Warm Table for having me. with Sonia Nolan, in Italian at tavola. calda is a warm and welcoming table where you can share big ideas, friendship, laughter and life. So much happens around the kitchen table, and I wanted to amplify it here in this podcast. My aim is to feed your mind and soul through smart conversations with heart. No topic is off limits, but good table manners rule. I hope you'll join us each week as we set the table for my extraordinary guests who will let you feast on their deep knowledge, life experiences and wise insights. Let's keep the conversation flowing. Please subscribe to the My Warm Table Podcast and share it with your friends and networks. Perhaps if they're new to podcasting, take a moment to show them how to download and subscribe so they don't miss an episode either. I'd also love you to join our community on Facebook. You will find the group at My Warm Table Podcast. Your support is very much appreciated. So that together we can eat, think and be merry!