Finding Your Place Far From Home - with Sarah Leibovitz-Dambre

If you’ve ever had to build a life in a new culture, this conversation will meet you right where you are. It was a pleasure to sit down with Sarah Leibovitz‑Dambre, intercultural trainer and expert in French and English language and culture, to unpack the emotional and practical realities of moving to France: navigating bureaucracy, managing language anxiety, and finding belonging without losing yourself.

Sarah traces her journey from a multicultural childhood in France to a pivotal move to the U.S., a moment that sparked her calling to help international professionals thrive across cultures. We explore why facts about a country aren’t enough, how real integration starts with embodied connection, and a surprising twist: in France, corrections often signal inclusion, not criticism. 

Beyond intercultural perspectives, the conversation gets personal as Sarah reflects on the deeper questions in life. 

Whether you’re an expat in France, a global professional, or someone rebuilding identity after a big change, you’ll find this conversation incredibly useful. Press play to learn how to build meaningful connections, reframe tough feedback, and design a life that feels like home. 

To discover more about Sarah's work please visit cultureinsight.fr or get in touch with her on LinkedIn. 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us Sarah!

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Speaker 0:07

Hi there, welcome to ZestPal. I'm your host Gabriella, and together with my guests, we explore life skills, life lessons, and what it is that truly matters. Come and join us. In this episode, I'm talking to Sarah Leibovitz-Dambre, a certified intercultural trainer and expert in French and English language and culture. We talk about intercultural perspectives, Sarah's experience in helping international professionals succeed in France, and of course, the deeper questions in life. Enjoy. A very warm welcome. Hi Sarah. My pleasure to meet you. Thank you for joining the show. Tell me a little bit more about yourself. What is it that you do? Ah, what is it that I do?

Speaker 1 0:51

Okay, so I'm a language trainer and an intercultural communication trainer. That's my main job. And um, I used to teach in institutions. I lived in the States for many years, and I used to teach at university. Back in France, I used to teach for an engineering school, but then I left. I decided to, it was enough after 11 years of working uh with them. So now I'm completely self-employed, I would say. Okay. Yes. And I teach people, expatriates in in France, teach French to expatriates. I used to teach English as well, but I don't teach English anymore so much, yeah. So basically, my trainees are expatriates, young expatriates, professionals, uh, who have just moved to France.

Speaker 1:44

Okay. And how did this come, this idea to help uh expats settle in France? And did you see uh any problems or difficulties, you know, things getting lost in translation culturally? Or what was it?

Growing Up Between Cultures

Speaker 1 2:02

What was it? It's hard to explain. I would say that it's a long process. I've always been extremely interested in in uh languages and cultures. I mean, I'm from a very kind of multicultural family already, coming from and I grew up in the south of France, which is very multicultural as well. As an individual, I always felt a little bit outside, um, not really completely part of the um of groups or so. For me, it was easy to think about helping, or easy, it was kind of natural to help other people feel a bit more integrated in society or in groups, whether it is small groups, larger groups, or yeah, that's I would say that's uh and my first day in the States when I was 12 was sort of a revelation. I felt much more at ease outside of my country, outside of my familiar uh environment than in my yeah. So yeah, I think those two things, I mean, my background, um, my personal background, my experience abroad, and then I moved on. I did, you know, some some my education is in in literature, language, and cultures and comparative studies of of cultures. So all this kind of combined and it made sense to help other people. I mean, people expatriates, yeah.

Advice For Mixed‑Heritage Kids

Speaker 3:37

That sounds great. Is there any advice you would give to those uh maybe kids who are from different cultural backgrounds, maybe a mixed heritage? Because I I think many, many people can relate to what you just said, that they belong a little bit here, a little bit there, but they don't feel like they belong to one particular place. What was it that helped you? What advice would you give to someone like that? The reason I'm asking because my son is a mixer. Um I'm Hungarian, my husband is half English, half Italian, and we live in Austria, you know, so he's a European mix, and he's going to a school with lots of mixed families. So this is something I see.

Speaker 1 4:24

I would say it's it's so personal, and it's uh how did I cope with this? As a my own experience, I would say, hmm, it's really it inside my family, the diversity of cultures were really respected. I mean, you know, there were no my grandparents, uh father was from Russia, my grandma from Italy, and they were really respectful. And even I would say that sometimes my Italian grandmother was even more interested in her husband's. Um so respect, I mean, respect and curiosity for the other cultures or all these parts of you, um, I would say this is, but you don't force anybody to respect. But I mean, is it's such a richness as well, you know. I think it made me also what I am, this ability, I mean, I as as much as I can, because nobody is perfect, as you know. I mean, and you we all have bias and we all struggling with filters and things like that, right? But I'm trying my best to really accept people for the way they are. Yeah, it's hard to give an yeah, to give them a very good uh piece of advice, I would say. But yeah, seeing this as a richness for sure, as as a as an ability to see other truths, it really widens your abilities, your emotional, cognitive, uh, spiritual abilities as well, I would say.

Speaker 6:04

I I love your answer.

Speaker 1 6:05

I'm not sure it's a good answer, but this is. I think it's great.

Speaker 6:08

So it's respect, curiosity, and and seeing the richness of uh the diversity. I I think this is a very important lesson, and it ties in with another question that I had for you. What what it is you would what advice you would give to people who are relocating to a new country and how to how to embrace the new culture, how to find their feet.

Common Expat Struggles In France

Speaker 1 6:32

I would say that you know, making connections, uh this is uh, you know, a question that's another student of mine asked me. I mean, you know, finding connection with the the culture or the society in which you live is really important. Um meaning if it has to do to be through a teacher or a trainer or anybody else, I mean, you need to find connection in the sense of uh if you like, I don't know, biking, for instance, or if you like any sport, trying to find people who have the same interests, or uh but really trying to find an emotional embodied connection. Just reading about the culture or learning uh about the culture is not enough, um, obviously. So creating really, I mean, the the best experiences that I have with my students are experiences where we really connect. And I really, uh, it sounds a bit banal, but I really try to adapt to tailor my class to their needs, really. If they want to talk about rock climbing or uh anything, you know, I we talk about this and we and I really try to understand them, really make place for them, give them room for them, express themselves. And so really finding a connection through a trainer, I mean, of course, sometimes it doesn't happen right away, I mean, or through other people, really making connections is for me, even if it's just going to the baker and being really it's hard. I'm not saying it's easy, but making connections, effective, emotional connections.

Speaker 8:28

Yeah. That's great. So the people you're working with, uh, is there a an a number one difficulty that they have settling in France? Is there something that uh they all uh seem to struggle with, or is it very individual?

Speaker 1 8:44

Uh a few things that I hear a lot is first the bureaucracy in France, which is objectively true. I mean, it's not a it's not even subjective, it's not even a perspective, because even as um I I am a French native and I struggle with the the bureaucracy, it's very heavy. So that's one thing that I hear a lot. One thing that I hear sometimes is that French people can be, they're intimidating, I would say. When we try to speak with them, sometimes they feel that they mastering the French language is is scary or it's it it recreates a lot of, generates a lot of anxiety more than any other it feels more than other languages. I mean, from my understanding, uh students who speak several languages, uh, you know, who are already speak like three or four languages, always have a greater amount of anxiety towards French. And I'm just trying to understand, and I've been trying to understand why is it because of the French who tend to correct you if you're saying, you know, they're a little bit perfectionistic, and this is our education, and I try to help them deconstruct that. Really, it's because they themselves were corrected very often. So it's it's um, yeah, that's one of the struggles that I see with language, uh, then with negative kind of feedback, because the French are tend to be, I mean, I don't like to speak in in behavioralistic uh way, but can be, for instance, if you ask them something, they might not say it's possible right away. They might say no, c'est pas possible, you know, and and then they will come back to you and they will, but they start with no and then they progress towards more positive. Um yeah, these are the difficulties. Of course, all the paperwork. I mean, finding an apartment, I mean, all the yeah.

Speaker 11:00

That's that's fascinating. Hungarians are very similar to the French in that respect. They start with no and they they will correct you if you make mistakes. Okay.

Reframing French Corrections As Inclusion

Speaker 1 11:12

Maybe that's a European thing. Yeah, possible, yeah. Maybe European, maybe is yeah, it's part of our education. We were corrected and we identify so much with the language, it's so much part of our identity. We were programmed. I mean, it's I mean, it's a formatting. I mean, it's not like natural, of course, but we were, you know, the French language because uh a few centuries ago we had many dialects, and we were so the French was imposed upon all the regions, and so it's yeah. So we tend to to uh do to others what we had to suffer, kind of, yeah. That's my belief. That's what is behind. And also what is interesting is what I tell my students as well, is that corrections for a French person doesn't mean that he or she blames you or criticizes you. It means that he or she wants you to be even this is inclusion. This it means inclusion. It's like I want you to be really part of my language family, so I'm correcting you. So it's not really so these these are typical misunderstandings as well. Yeah. For an American or an English-speaking person, I mean being corrected feels like he doesn't accept me the way I am. But in fact, it's more like no, I want you to speak my language properly, so you're really part of of my tribe, I would say.

Speaker 3 12:42

Yeah.

Speaker 12:42

Also, I think. Cultural differences, they they really matter, and in in this day and age, in the global world, but everybody is so freely traveling for work and you know mixed marriages and and everything. This is a very, very important topic, I think, to to see the other, not uh from your perspective, but try to put yourself in there and see it from their perspective, and it it might mean a totally different thing.

Speaker 1 13:13

But you also have to accept the fact that, and this is something I'm I'm quoting here. Um I'm I've been taking a master class with um Joseph Scholes, it's from he's he works for the uh Japan Intercultural Institute, and you really have to accept the fact that at first you you work, I mean you approach the other with your intuitive mind, and yes, it is hurtful. Yes, it feels, but then you know, you move on to a more kind of attentive mind and and you try to understand. But it's okay to feel hurt or to feel lost or to feel disoriented. It's part of the process with the the brain is just how we do things, you know, how the brain does things. I mean, yeah, acknowledging the fact that it's hard is the first step, you know, saying, oh no, everything is fine, you know. So I had so many students in the past, like engineering students, who would go abroad. It was the other way around, and they would go abroad and they would say, Oh no, I'm you know, I'm sure, you know, everything will be okay. It's just Italy or even Spain, so we are very similar. And and they were really in denial about the differences. Yeah, yeah. And they would stay actually in denial for a few the the duration of their internship, and they would come back having learned not really anything, honestly. So it takes it takes an effort and it takes a yeah, a conscious awareness of cultures and the differences, and yeah. Thank you so much for your views.

Speaker 14:59

All right, so let's move on to these deeper questions that I have about life. What are the things that truly matter in life, in your view?

Acceptance, Culture Shock, And Learning

Speaker 1 15:15

If I had to say one thing right now, is that the first thing that comes to my my mind is freedom, I would say, and authenticity. And what I mean by freedom is is not freedom to do anything you want, but freedom to be yourself. Freedom, this is yeah, freedom to be in an environment that allows you to be yourself. Yeah, I would say, yeah. So, and as a young person, this uh when I was young, I didn't pay too much attention to that. I didn't realize that was so important, you know, to respect who I was. Yeah, and yeah, and I wanted so much to fit into a mold, you know. Oh my god, yeah, yeah. That I really did not respect that. But I I just and I I don't I don't have any regrets. I'm just saying it's um I had to go through that, that's it. Yeah, but it was painful, you say. It's such a long process. For some people it's faster. For me, it took a long, long time. Took really many decades to go back to myself, yeah.

Speaker 16:33

So for someone who who feels like they are in an environment where they they don't fit in or they can't quite be themselves, what would be the first step to change that or do something about it?

Speaker 1 16:49

I would say again, uh find at least one connection, one person, if it's only one person with whom you can be yourself. It could be a therapist, it could be a friend, but even if it's just one person um I mean, with whom you have a real connection, with whom you can be yourself, it's already like an example or sort of like a landmark or like a uh a way for you to see how how different you are depending on the context, you know. Um, and it's okay if it's just one person at the beginning, yeah, or you know, but having like a support system, finding asking for help, yeah, asking for help, really. And I yeah, I've done that many for many. I do ask for help when in my life when I I I went through many years of therapy, many since the age of 18. So you see, I mean, a lot of uh so asking for help, yeah, that's the first thing I would say.

Speaker 18:05

What are the most important lessons that you had learned in life?

What Truly Matters: Freedom And Authenticity

Speaker 1 18:09

That I mean, apart from apart from the big, huge, terrible uh things, like the death of a family member or someone you loved very much, apart from this, from those terrible events, I would say nothing is really bad and nothing is really good. I would say that that, you know, it I don't know if you've heard this Chinese story, and I don't know the entire story, but it's it's like the it's a father whose son is injured, uh and his neighbors and friends say to him, Oh my god, and it's really terrible for you because your your only son is is injured and he cannot work for you or with you or help you with the farm. And the Chinese um father says, Well, I don't know. And then a few years later, there is a war, and all the sons are sent to war, and not not his son, because he's got one one leg. I mean, he's he's injured, handicapped. And all all the neighbors say, Oh, you're so lucky, your son is not going to war. And the fi Chinese father says, Well, don't know, you know, uh, so and on and on. So there is nothing, the the the lesson I I have is that there's nothing really bad or nothing really good. I mean, it's it's there's also, or you can see it as there is al always a silver lining to to bad things. I mean, except as I said, the really bad events. But even if you don't get a job or you don't get chosen by somebody, or you don't get, you know, there's uh there's always a good thing about. That's and there is unfortunately even with the lucky aspects we get, lucky lucky events we get, there is also a bad negative aspect to it as well. You know, let's say you got you you receive the job of your life, but then it's really far away, or it's a very stressful, or it's you know, so that's my main lesson, really, honestly. There is nothing really good, nothing really bad. It's just is, and you have to make the best of it.

Speaker 2 20:34

Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

Speaker 20:44

What advice would you give to younger generations?

Finding Support And Asking For Help

Speaker 1 20:49

I really don't like giving advice. Why? Because as a young person I didn't receive them. I didn't, I didn't, you know. Um, so I I just I don't like to be in this posture of the one giving advice. It always, you know, even now when people give me advice, I I I feel, you know, this is not the right posture or the right way to interact with other people. Um, so I would never give them advice. So yeah. But one advice is one piece of advice would be ask for help if you need. Please. Don't stay. Please don't, you know, because I know that young, younger generations, we all go through terrible things, terrible moments. So please don't don't, you know, don't give up on other people and being able to to help you.

Speaker 2 21:45

Yeah.

Speaker 1 21:46

That's correct. Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 21:55

What habit or daily routine has been the most helpful to you that you would recommend to others as well? Is there any?

Nothing Is Fully Good Or Bad

Speaker 1 22:04

Yeah, I try, I try to. I would say that walking in in nature, it's not daily, but I do it, I try to do as it as much as possible. Walking outside and looking at the horizon, just staying, um, just uh stopping to focus on one thing and and trying to forcing myself to get outside, or if there is I'm stuck on something, I usually go outside and walking outside in nature really helps me. Um, and I think it helps a lot of people as well. That's one thing that helps a lot. Also, just um focusing. Sometimes when I'm really on a daily routine, I would say that focusing on my work helps. It is it is also uh a way to uh recenter myself um to uh to uh prioritize my students' needs. It's like I know it feels like I'm not taking, I'm not taking, but it helps in the sense I it's a framework. That's it, yeah. But as I said, I'm not really I'm not into giving advice. I I would I love to share and communicate with with other people and younger people as well. But giving advice I think is just um not who I am. I okay yeah. It feels condescending, kind of, you know, it feels and I I really don't see myself as because sometimes young students, I mean my younger students, but also young people really teach me a lot as well. Not only about uh current life, but about life, you know, the way they see things. So I really don't see and yeah, with age, I you and you see I'm older, but I don't see my I see myself and I feel myself not as an older person either. So um yeah. So who am I to give advice, you know, to yeah. Even though I'd love to help as well, listening to them, yes, for for sure. Interacting or yeah.

Speaker 24:24

I think there's so much we can learn from uh the older generations, so much. I mean, I feel it on myself. I'm 45 now and uh I just I'm just so much more uh um I dare to be myself, like you said. I I know what my values are, I know what I stand for, I I know what I won't tolerate, and just that alone is is a great thing to be like with every decade of my life is is better than the previous ones.

Speaker 2 24:55

Exactly, yeah.

Speaker 24:56

And I think there is so much focus on like being young, trying to look young, and and I think the best years come after middle age.

On Advice, Boundaries, And Learning Across Ages

Speaker 1 25:07

Yeah, it's yeah, for sure, for sure. It except that we yeah, you do feel like, oh, why didn't I start younger? Why didn't I start being myself younger? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do believe like you that there is so much to learn from elderly people, from but from anybody, in fact, who is available to to to communicate or is available to to share his or her thoughts or feelings or emotions, you know. But I don't have a special specific kind of I don't idolize elderly people either. You know what I mean? My my mother, for instance, is 85, she's elderly for sure, and she has a lot to learn, but sometimes I think she's she doesn't. I think there's the other way around. She still needs to learn. She she still has to, I mean, she has a lot to teach. I mean, but sometimes I feel it's the other way around still, and that's okay, and that's great. In fact, you know, I can I tell her sometimes, I say, oh, you know, it's not because you're 85 that you know everything, and she's great for sure. She's an example. She's she's uh yeah, I don't have this very kind of uh I have respect for other human beings, tremendous respect for other, but not because they're elderly or younger or whatever, whoever.

Speaker 2 26:34

Yeah.

Speaker 26:35

But there is a lesson in there in itself to respect everybody and try to learn something from everybody, regardless of generation.

Speaker 1 26:44

Yeah, exactly. Oh, I love so much, yeah, there's so much richness in each person.

Speaker 26:56

What is the best way to overcome difficulties or hardship? To accept it.

Speaker 1 27:03

To accept the hardship. I mean to not to yeah, I would say to really see it as it is and not, I mean, this is how it works for me. I mean, uh, and it doesn't work overnight, obviously. But just starting by saying, okay, yes, it is a hard time right now. It is, yeah, you're right. I understand you're you're in pain because and I talk to myself a lot. And I say, yeah, I see it. I see that you're in pain because your uncle died, or because so and so, and you know, and and that's okay. That's okay. You you are in pain, and and I don't try to force myself to be happy if I'm not happy, you know. So just accepting the hardship as as it is, and because I know that you know, it will um just ignoring it or trying to be pretend it's not there isn't going to make it um bigger. So I mean that's the way I work. But each one is different, each person is so different with you know hardship and um but then I also as I said concentrate also on others when I when I'm in pain. It helps, for instance, when I'm really in pain, concentrating on others' needs. It also helps, it sort of pulls me out of my pain.

Speaker 2 28:29

Yeah.

Speaker 1 28:30

Helping on, you know, helping someone else really, really helps. Sometimes it's hard for for sure when you're really in pain. It's hard to pull you out of your misery. But it it does work, it helps. That's why I mean I love my job, I like my job, you know, um, you know, interacting, helping other people. It really, as I said earlier, it it helps me sometimes, you know, uh not be too much in my mind and you know, having to concentrate on others. Yeah. So those two things, and accepting the pain, and also trying to, but at the same time, which is seems like a contradiction, but it's not uh at the same time, you know, focusing on others, uh trying, I mean, of course, as when you can, because I know that it's not always possible, of course, when you're in terrible pain, it's yeah, I would say, if you can, yeah. Trying to do small things for others, if you can.

Speaker 29:33

Yeah, I love that this positivity movement. Sometimes I feel like it's going too far, and uh they call it in some cases uh toxic positivity, where you try to keep repeating some mantra and affirmation that everything is fine, but you can feel inside if if that's not true. And I don't I think I love it that be honest with yourself and accept the pain and that it's okay from time. It's just part of life, it's not always going to go smoothly.

Speaker 1 30:05

And writing as well, it's been a great help in in my hardest, most painful moments, writing, journaling. But really, I I was never afraid of being of accepting. I mean, sometimes it took a long time to move through or uh to go to overcome the but I was never afraid of uh of telling myself, yeah, you're in pain, that's that's okay. Yeah.

Speaker 30:38

What would we focus on if we want a happy life? What makes for a happy life?

Speaker 1 30:45

Meaning. Meaning in in your work. I mean it sounds a bit now, but uh meaning in your work for sure. It has to mean something. Even if it's a meaning that you have to build, it doesn't come like that. Again, you know, teaching for a while was not so much my my cup of tea, and then I fell for it because also of the because of the connection I get myself with my students as well. So it has a meaning. I'm helping some people and connection again, connecting with other people, for sure, which is not always easy, even for me. I'm not, I mean, I connect with my students, but they are prof it's they are professional relationships, so it's not, you know, uh, they're not friends, of course, but um yeah, connecting for sure.

Speaker 31:49

Looking back on your life, is there anything you regret or anything you would do differently if you had the chance?

Meaning, Connection, And Work

Speaker 1 31:57

Yeah, unfortunately, yes. I mean I try not to have regrets, but there is one thing, there is a particular moment in my life where I should have I should have um listened to myself. I should have listened to what I was feeling, and I didn't. I for some reason I I don't know. I hoped. I don't know what I hoped. I mean, yes, I hope. I I don't know. Maybe I was not confident enough in my um my abilities or my future, or yeah, um hopeful, I wasn't maybe not hopeful enough, so I didn't listen to a normal person, I would say, a healthier person would have left at that moment, would have said enough. Yeah, that's for sure. But yeah, as I said, I had to it took me like 30 years to learn. That yeah, it's a regret, yeah. So we need to listen to our gut feeling, yeah, yeah, but it's so hard at the same time. I really don't want to judge anybody or anyone because it is so hard and and we feel lonely, disoriented, no, and that's why I'm saying the biggest p if uh if I dare to give advice, it would be ask for help, really. You know, the thing is that help it doesn't always come in the right way, where you know, but if you feel if you have the connection or if you have the support system, you're obviously stronger to uh to leave situations that are not good for you, for sure. But it takes time, takes so much time to yeah, to build. But some students, some some I keep saying student because I'm surrounded by students, but some people are able to do that much younger and good for them. Good for them, yeah.

Speaker 34:03

I think it also depends on how we were raised. If we are raised in a way that uh need to develop firm boundaries, then you just say no easier. And if you're raised to kind of oh, you don't matter so much and you're a people pleaser, then exactly, yeah. Then that's not always leading to healthy choices as a young adult. I I was in that category too.

Speaker 1 34:29

Yeah. So it's it's so the advice I would be it's more if I had to give advice would be more to parents than really helping, yeah, building those, helping your child build those boundaries. I mean, it sounds really cliche to say that, but for me, it's been really a struggle. You know, yeah, boundaries, you know, saying, no, no, it things are not okay for me, and that's fine. Uh, but it's it's I'm still struggling with those, still very much, yeah. Yeah, you're right. It really depends on who you were raised by as well, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 35:09

Yeah, I think parents have tremendous power. I don't think they realize, I don't think all of us realize how much power we have in sleeping a human a new human life.

Speaker 1 35:20

Yeah. Yeah. So much power. So much, yeah. So much impact. And and sometimes I but at the same time, the thing is that I don't want to make parents feel guilty either, because it's it's such a hard job. It's a very difficult job raising a child. I mean, and you have all these unconscious packages that you communicate, right? And how do you, you know, how do you I mean I I I tr I've tried. I mean, I did my best, but I'm not I'm you know, like the famous, uh, what's her name? Um, Willie Cott, famous uh psychiatrist said, you know, you're you're just I was just good enough. Um I tried to be good enough, that's it, you know. But that's all we can be. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Thank you so much for it was a pleasure sharing. And it's it's yeah, these are things that you you have, you know, on your mind or in your mind, and you don't ever really verbalize them. But uh, this is also very interesting for me to verbalize them. Thank you so much for this conversation. Have a very good day. You too. Bye too.

Speaker 36:43

Thank you for listening to the ZestPal Show. And if you like this episode, share it with your friends or hit the subscribe button. See you next time. And until then, remember, life is precious. Make the most of it.