Curiosity, Connection, and the Courage to Be You - with Catherine Macquart-Martin

What if the way back to hope starts with curiosity, openness, and talking to people outside your bubble? We sit down with Catherine Macquart-Martin, inclusive leadership coach—exploring how we learn, grow, and stay connected in a complex world. 

Catherine takes us through her journey from a small French town to an international career in diplomacy, training and coaching. Her perspective is candid and practical: connection thrives when we respect difference, self-awareness grows when we notice our strongest reactions, and agency returns when we translate “what matters” into small, repeatable actions.

Our conversation gets personal, too. Catherine describes facing her “shadow” in a difficult work relationship, and learning that what we judge in others often mirrors parts we deny in ourselves. We unpack whether hardship is required for growth and how to keep agency without dismissing pain. 

And there’s so much more. If you’re feeling stuck or powerless, this conversation offers a humane reset: choose inputs that widen your world, act on your values in small ways, and rebuild connection one intentional conversation at a time. 

To discover more about Catherine’s work, get in touch with her on LinkedIn. 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us Catherine!

Transcript

Meet Catherine And Her Journey

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Hi there, welcome to the Test Pal Show. I'm your host Gabriella, and together with my guests, we explore how to navigate life, what really matters, and how we can all build a life that we actually enjoy. Come and join us. In this episode, my guest is Katherine McCartney Martin. Katherine is an inclusive leadership coach exploring how we learn, grow, and stay connected in a complex world. We talk about the importance of connection, curiosity, openness, why self-awareness and knowing what you want or don't want is key. And of course, the deeper questions in life. Enjoy. It's a pleasure to have you on the show, Catherine. Thanks for joining us. So tell me a little bit more about yourself. What is it that you do and what is your story?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Yeah, thank you for inviting me. First of all, and my story, well, it sounds am I so old already? My story is I'm born in North of France in um very classical family, father, mother in a house with a brother. At a period where it was possible for someone from um working social class to climb the ladder, to go to secondary school, to have studies. To go somewhere else. And this is what I did because I I started from a, as I said, uh a small town with a very simple way of life to living in in different countries, exploring the world. Starting as a teacher, I ended um training teachers and trainers all over the world. So I started in a very humble place and have been able to travel and to meet very different people and to be um to work for diplomacy. I'm still working abroad, and my children have um an intercultural, multicultural uh life. They have been born in France but raised in the Netherlands. The they lived uh also in England with us. So they are very international, very European. In one sentence, I started from a very local, humble place, and I've been able to build a European uh life for my children, an international life for my children, a broader, I hope, a broader uh life for my family, for me, for my family and my children. Yeah. Uh that's it. And now what I do after this very busy life all around the place in in planes and hotels and restaurants and things like that. Now I'm much more quiet. I coach uh mostly from home via Zoom. I coach leaders who work in international uh environments, so with uh a very diverse workplace. Yeah.

Social Mobility Then And Now

SPEAKER_01 3:30

That sounds great. Uh uh, I'd like to ask a question about um your opinion on uh social mobility. You mentioned that uh it was possible for you to move to a different social class. Yeah. Do you think this is still uh the same today, that it's possible for people to uh climb the ladder, or do you think it has changed?

SPEAKER_00 3:55

I I'm very grateful I've been able to do it. I wonder, I have no answer. Uh I'm not a sociologist, but I fear that it it might be a little bit more difficult now that uh social classes are a bit more closed up. Yeah. I fear it. I had the opportunity to do something else. It was an open world, open society. Moving to a different country was was easy, or at least my experience it was easy. I fear that for youngsters now they have to be much more courageous to do it. And I might be wrong on that. Because there are programs, there are educational programs that allow students to move across Europe and and still in the world, they still exist. I feel that that it's a little bit more uh complicated. The mindset, the general mindset is getting more, there are more boundaries. And if I belong to this group, I don't belong to this group. You know what I mean? I mean it was for me, my generation was much more open. Oh, we are building something. We are curious about the world, we can do whatever we want. We we might be a bit a little bit more um closed. I could dig into that.

Antidotes: Curiosity And Compassion

SPEAKER_01 5:30

This is a a fear I have. What could be the antidote to this uh closeness?

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Yeah, I'm glad we are going straight deep diving. Um I love that. Um straight in. What is what could be the antidote? Curiosity, awareness about our own values, what matters, and curiosity, compassion for people who don't hold the same values.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

It's okay. What why what's what's in there for them? We might disagree, we we might put forward different values, but still their values are there's something in it. It's not that they don't show up the same way I would do. If I'm curious and compassionate, I can understand to a certain degree why they are what what they what they show up. So curiosity, compassion, awareness, self-awareness could be the antidotes.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

I love how you emphasize values. I think this is so important to understand that people are different, they have different values, and it's not like one is better than the other, and we should all accept and respect uh uh other people's differences and if they have different values. I think this is what makes the world such a beautiful place, otherwise it would be so boring if we were all the same. Absolutely, and dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Yes. And dangerous because if we are all the same, at some point we die. Life needs diversity. You can't have uh a vivid uh environment if there's no diversity in it. You can see it in forests, in in societies, uh diversity supports life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

And this was important to you in your work as well, I believe, uh, in a diplomatic role, to have this openness and uh curiosity. So coming from that angle, what would you suggest to people? How can they be more open to a different culture?

How To Open To Other Cultures

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Well, I started with literature as a as a very young child, I would ab I would read Dick books about different cultures, and it it can be a place to start, to meet other people through literature or through series on TV, to different ways of of living, thinking, different languages. I I know I'm a bit old-fashioned when I mention literature and learning languages because there's been uh a thinking that if you speak English, we do speak English. But the thinking was if you speak English, you can speak to anybody. And still it matters to learn different languages. Yeah. So learn languages, look at uh different cultures in literature or museums or paintings, uh theatre, through through an artistic lens, not just the technical length that that tends to yeah, we we mentioned diversity. Less diverse technological tools we have makes life easier. But they tend to to make everything the same. So curiosity, being curious about uh languages, uh art, people, and and it might it might not be something for you for you because it's too wild or to this or to that, but there's something to learn from it. Yeah so that's that's it, that's this mindset to to to cultivate. Curiosity makes our lives uh richer. Absolutely. And you might discover that indeed this value or this way to to speak to people or to relate is is not for you. Definitely not for you, and that you on the contrary, you cherish more this or that. And it's valuable. There's value in in those differences.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

You get to learn yourself better, I think. You put yourself in different situations. It's a self-discovery. Yes. Because realizing what you don't like is also uh it's a learning experience.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Yeah, it's a journey toward yourself too. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

So we have connected uh through this um 100 conversations challenge. Absolutely. Can you please tell me more about this project?

Self-Discovery Through Difference

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Well, through my career, I've met a lot of people, as you can imagine, as a trainer, uh, international trainer, as uh working in diplomacy, at a very rich and vibrant network. Uh, could have very deep conversations with a lot of uh people around the world. I love that. And after the COVID, so when I I stepped up to being a coach, because I transitioned was that okay, training is fine, we need trainings to build up skills, and I needed something deeper, something more um transformative at an individual level. So that's why I I went to leadership coaching, and not realizing it, I've lost a lot of connections I had by traveling a lot, by meeting a lot of different people. Coaching via Zoom is is very rich. We have this conversation now, I'm very grateful for this technology. But at some point, it's true that my network was smaller and smaller, without me noticing it. And the thing is, last year uh my mother has been very sick and we've been to different hospitals, and I have had uh very different experiences in terms of uh conversation, communication, uh relationships. Uh oh, there's something I need to do here. And it took me um some months, and oh yes, I want to connect again with people I don't know. What I felt in those experiences in hospitals, in different hospitals, is that a lot of people around me were afraid to connect, to speak to people outside of their close social uh group. I I could see the fear, I could see the lack of comfort, of confidence, of the desire to connect to people that are different for me. Wow, it was it has been a shock. So okay, I want to have this in my life to go back to meeting people, I don't know, having deep conversation without attachment, and then see what happens. And for for example, we are we have had a conversation, and now you are inviting me in your podcast. I'm so grateful for that. This is a gift.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Yes.

The 100 Conversations Challenge

SPEAKER_00 13:10

This is what makes life so meaningful. We keep going back to the curiosity and the overall. Curiosity, and and look what what we can build two months ago. We had no idea. I had no idea that Gabriela was uh was there in the world. And yeah, and and uh being from Hungary, having lived in this country and that country, and I didn't know you. Uh you didn't know me. And now we're building this. Yeah, this is so great, and I wanted to put that back in my life a bit more consciously, more actively. So that's that's how this 100 conversation is born, and I'm so so happy about it. It brings something back, something I add and I'd let go little by little. That's how the challenge is born.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Yes, sorry. Yeah, I I love the challenge, I love the idea, and I think a lot more people should be doing uh similar things. Uh do you think COVID and the lockdowns and the distance uh do you think it played a role in people being more closed? Or was this always there you just didn't notice it so much because of the kind of work that you were doing?

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Um it was there because of the financial crisis we had in the years 28-29, there was doubts about international business. Something changed at that time with this financial crisis. The COVID and the lockdowns, of course, have been accelerators. And I'm very concerned because when in the Middle Ages, when there's been the epidemic, it has had good outcomes, of course, for the societies. It built it's changed from a very feudal society to a more commercial, business-oriented. Um it was the birth of citizenship. But it the transition has been very violent between the two systems. Because and the this epidemic, the play it has been devastating, much more than the COVID. And it changed the society. Of course, the change has been extremely violent. I think it changed it for the better. We are now in this in a new phase of disruption. We talk about polychrisis, and from that we have to be very careful of where we want to head to. And that's where connections, meeting people we don't know from different places, with different experiences, from different ages, generations, is matters so much. Because we could we will go where we put our energy. And if we don't put our energy in those meaningful uh relationships, it can go in a in a direction we don't we I don't want a violent place where dominant people have all powers, it's it's scaring. It is I don't want that.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

But there is also hope in what you just said. So if in the Middle Ages, after the Great Plague, the outcome was a better system, then there is hope that this time the outcome can be a better system. Absolutely. And the keyword is to to be intentional and and consciously be the kind of world that we want to live in. Absolutely. And it's everybody's responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Yeah, I couldn't agree more, Gabriela. It's it's every single person has the power to influence what is coming.

Crises, Disruption, And Intentionality

SPEAKER_01 17:17

I don't think everybody is aware of that though. Do you get this sense that people think that there is nothing that I can do? I I have this sense that so many people think that they are powerless. There's nothing I can do about this. And it's not true. Yeah, this powerlessness is there. What advice would you give to these people then? How can we change this mindset? Because you are actively doing something.

From Powerlessness To Agency

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Connect connect to your I mentioned values. You you underlined it. Uh connect to your values, what you really want. And I was about to say fight for them. I'm careful with fight and fighting, but claim claim uh space for your values and and connection to other people, but self-aware, self-awareness and cultivate, consciously cultivating self-awareness, what matters. How do I cherish how do I cultivate my values? And I don't wait for other people to validate that. I do it it starts with me. And it might be a little very little thing. I could be more more concrete. I cherish nature and I I think nature is important. Well, I go for a walk in nature. I do it, I do something that relates to my my values on a regular basis, not just in my head. Oh, nature is important, we should be careful for bears in the on the pools. Uh yes, bears on the pools are are part of the the ecosystem. What do I do myself to support nature to to make it important in my life? And I don't necessarily impose my views on others, but I put my energy in my values, and it will have rippling effects. I was very doubtful about that a few years ago. I was like, oh no, come on. And I'm more curious about it. I th I can see that our attitudes matter. Attitudes and what we do have an effect in our surroundings on a much larger scale. Well, I'm not totally aligned with that yet. I have I still have doubts. And still there is something here. So it starts with yourself. If you put your energy, your genuine energy, into uh value, it will have rippling effects. It will attract other people.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Okay. So if somebody is listening and they are not clear about what their values are, yeah, what is the first step that they can take?

SPEAKER_00 20:23

It's just asking uh this question, what matters here for me? What matters? Is it authenticity, is it uh strength, power? Just identify in a story, in in news you you listen to the radio or social network. What matters to me? Uh why do I react the way I react? To a post or to a picture. And little by little asking this question, then the values will show up. What matters? And then of course there are other questions where I am at my best. What do I do when I am at my my best? Totally fulfilled. Okay, what shows up when I'm fulfilled? Is it connection? Is it being alone? Is it um yeah, and and then you can identify your values. And of course you can find a list of values on internet on the internet and uh look at them and and some will appeal to you, some won't. Oh, it's a way to start too. There are many angles to to focus. And I I must say you you can hire a coach. It's it's uh self promotion here. No, I'm uh being serious. There's there are many angles to to look at your values, and it's it matters a lot, it changes a lot. Becoming more Conscious about what truly matters changes the way we look at ourselves, at other people, and we can have more agency. Choose where we want to head. And it's in this turbulent, in this insecure world, society we are in. Identifying, spotting our values is so important. It's the anchor we have. This is what will stay, what is there. Whatever comes up, our values will be there.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

You said this so beautifully, but it's so important. Just the podcast episode that I published yesterday. Uh my guest was also talking about how figuring out your values is the first step to building a life and reinventing yourself, whether it's work or or life in general, but values is where you begin.

Finding And Living Your Values

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Absolutely. First step values. And there are many ways to identify them. And it can change over time because you get more mature, you have more experiences, you meet different people, uh, you have different setbacks, values can evolve, and it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

And finding the people who share similar values, I think this is a very important thing.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Very comforting, very comforting. And we need that. We need this discomfort in these turbulent times.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

So now that we're talking about what matters, what is it that truly matters to you in life?

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Um secure, safe relationships. Safe and fun and playful relationships, harmonious relationships. So it's from family, friends, uh colleagues. How can people cultivate such relationships? It starts with yourself being self-aware, being very clear about what you want, what you don't want. And it it works, it's it's true in many, many settings. At work, within the family, it's agency, being able to be there for yourself, to choose according to your values, according to what your needs, and then relate to others. Oh, I need that. How can you help me? How can you support this? And if the other person can't, it's okay. It's it's it's their choice. Uh so being not too demanding others. If they can't offer something to you, that's very good. Receive the gift. It's it's a gift you receive. And if they don't, they don't. It belongs to them. So d yeah, not being demanding, uh but grateful when you when I receive something.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

I think relationships and cultivating relationships should be something that is taught in schools. I think this is such an essential skill to have, and most people never learn about this.

Safe, Playful Relationships

SPEAKER_00 25:24

It it is at the very nursery school level. We teach children how to relate to each other, but then when they go they go up in the system, we focus on knowledge. We focus on assessment. And with assessment comes comparison. This is terrible for relationships. Yes. This is terrible for pride, for feeling good enough. This phase is difficult. And some systems are um some educational systems are more cautious about building sound relationships. I'm thinking about uh the Danish school system. They have sessions to talk about empathy, to talk about relationships, even at the primary school. So not just at nursery school, but even later. And it matters, it's very, very important uh because we learn with other people. We don't learn in isolation. We know that for more than uh one century, and still a lot of schools focus on the individual assessment. It doesn't help to build uh a sound society where people know that they need others to to be successful, to to live in uh harmonious place where everyone has a place where everyone can contribute uh with his uh or us uh abilities. There's a lot of work to to be done. A lot of work, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Is this why social media has been so damaging to relationships? Because it highlights the comparison and we naturally compare ourselves, it's human nature, but perhaps with social media it has become worse because you you you just don't know if you're comparing yourself to somebody's true situation or or false.

Schools, Empathy, And Comparison

SPEAKER_00 27:37

And it's depending. Social networks are good in a way. Look, we we have been able to relate to on a social network. So it had good aspects. It's when you put your energy on social media and the way you show up your face or your picture, and if you start using filters to look more this or that, if you uh as you mentioned, if you compare yourself to others, then it can be toxic. And it's it seems it's very easy for new generations who have been brought up in this system to be trapped in it. Not being able to say, oh yeah, but I I'm worth something, I have value, I don't need to be like this influencer, or I don't need to have this hair or those this skin. I am who I am, and it's okay. It needs a lot of strength, inner security to be able to have this mindset. And yeah, for the youngsters, it's uh social networks have been demanding. And I'm glad, I'm very glad, as a former teacher, to see that some governments want to do something about social network. Uh for building social networks for you for teenagers. Maybe it's a step too far. How effective will that be? I don't know. But at least there will be a conversation in the society. Parents will have the conversation, and we need it because it can be very, very toxic and very quickly toxic. Those uh social networks are built to keep us in, to trap us. For my generation, it's much easier because I have not something else. I've been able to read literature, I started with that, I've been able to have uh meaningful relationships, uh, to do sport. Uh without this comparison system that trigs the palming. Oh, I have dislike, I have this uh mention, I have this comment, uh you know, it it's then it's it's easy to to stay there to to be trapped, yeah. So yeah, forbidding yes, all the best, uh with that. But we need to be conscious about the danger it can be for teenagers. And to be able for us as adults to put our form away, being aware we use them for so many things.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

What are the most important lessons you have learned in life?

Social Media’s Trap And Teens

SPEAKER_00 30:52

I feel like a very old person when I reflect on this. I feel old. What I've seen through my career and encounters I have had, and from my clients, I learned so much from my clients, is very short. Is what you avoid, what you don't want to see. The values you you say, oh no, I don't have this value. I don't like those people. It's coming back to you. There's a short say what you reject comes uh bounces back. That's the idea. And it's been a very unpleasant learning. I have to meet my shadow. I've I don't know if you if you know about shadow shadow work from Jung. It comes yeah from this Swiss psychologist uh from the the former century. He was uh a disciple of Freud at first and then he he he built up his own system. It's not very popular in France, so I didn't know much at all about Jung. But I've been curious when I started to coach people, I've been curious about his work, and I realized that I've been lucky I can't say it now, but at that time it was not the pleasant at all. But I've been lucky to meet my shadow, a person who had all the qualities I was rejecting, and I was very judgmental about him, and he was my boss He was my opposite for everything. I was so cross, I was so judgmental, I was so anger was present for me. I couldn't relate to this man, it was ah so ooh. And I've learned that this is a gift, actually. It was a difficult one, it was, as I said, unpleasant. But I've been able to it it relates to what we've been saying, to very cherish qualities and to realize that I was not different from him. Actually I was exactly like him. The thing is I chose in my life with my work, I chose a different path, a different I chose to show up with different facets of my personality. But I'm exactly like him. I am rude, I am aggressive, I lack elegance. I am exactly the same as it is. The only thing is I I show up in a different way. I choose to show up in a different way. This thinking was not available to me at that time. I was just judgmental. Oh, it is rude, oh he is blue, oh I don't want to ah I despise him. I was despising me through him. I was despising those facets I have. I'm no better.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

How can people make this sweet in mindset?

Meeting The Shadow And Growth

SPEAKER_00 34:10

I did it through uh this bad experience. I wonder if it's possible to get there if you don't have those kind of experiences. I wonder, it's it's a question I have. Do you need to to face burnout to to go back to to reset your presence and your consciousness? This is uh actually this is a conversation I often have with coaches, fellow coaches. We have um uh conversation groups, and do our clients need to to be hurt, to have bad experiences, to come to us and then try to to see something else, to learn from their experience, or can you build it through education? I think we can with our children, grandchildren, young people around us, we can make them more aware uh of that. Um having said that, I mentioned that the school systems are not built, or very few are built uh to make this consciousness available. So it is it why we say that older people are wiser? Is it because they have been through uh very uncomfortable experiences that are able to say, oh but oh look, I'm judgmental, but at least in fact I'm not better. Is this wisdom? Do we need to be old to be wise? Can we can't we be wise at a younger age? It's all questions I I still have. I would like in an ideal world, people would not need coaches, uh psychologists, therapist, we would be born wise. And we learn through experiences, through hardships, through reflection. Okay, I had this difficult experience, add this difficult encounter. What do I learn from that? And yes, ideally I wouldn't need uh a coach to move up. The experience shows that something you need someone or a group or uh you need a social interaction to to move up to to change. I don't know if I'm clear because it's still there are still questions around me uh with that.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

So uh tell me if I'm no I understand personally I think hardship is something that we need in order to grow. I think it's very difficult to grow in comfort. And I think comfort is not not good for us. Yeah, it can it can be tricky indeed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Not extreme hardship because you know some can push you better and some can break you, and you know, there's a if you go if it's hard, if it's a trauma, then you can be trapped in the trauma.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

You can get out of the pain. The pain is overwhelming, and it will take a huge amount of work on yourself, uh a lot of sessions with therapists to get out of the loop. Because yeah, when when you have experience a trauma, you tend to to circle on the pain. So, except from that, we can't wish someone to experience a trauma, of course. But some hurdles, it seems to be necessary. Yeah. Grow up. You have hurdles, okay. What do I learn from that? Who do I want to be from that? And do I stay in the pain in this dimension? Do I resent my former boss because he's rude, because he's a loyal all the the things I I don't want to see, I don't want to be. Or do I, oh yeah, what is there for me? Do I transform myself? How do I enrich my own life and experience? Do I share it? Uh, because it's not just for me, it's it's for people around me. Actually, it's always questions. When I speak to you now, what comes very clearly it's questions, questions, questions. Not to be uncomfortable, but to it's curiosity, just to be curious and not say, Oh, I'm not good enough. I have to grow up or to to force myself to to be someone else. No, no, no. It's just curiosity and uh compassion and oh, what can I learn here? I'm already good, and how can I be even better? That's more in that spirit. It's not a question to suffer, it's a question for fun, for discovery, for experience. The fun learning, yeah, playful learning.

Do We Need Hardship To Grow

SPEAKER_01 39:25

And now that we were talking about difficulties, uh, what is the best way, in your opinion, to overcome difficulties and hardship?

Hope Inside Hard Times

SPEAKER_00 39:35

It's a bit far-fetched. Uh I I'm sure not everybody will agree with with what I will say because it's I was not I've not always been there. But it's there is celebration in the artships, a form of celebration. It's okay now it's heavy on me, and it's it's okay to feel pain because it's very heavy, it's unbearable. And somewhere in a tiny place, in all this burden, this hardships, this pain, this uh darkness, this ugliness, this somewhere there is light. It's life actually. I'm still alive. I'm still there. My value is still there. My life is still precious, still there. So this and this light at some point will take the place, will grow, and the darkness will be less dark. So it's it's hope, I guess. Uh it's hope that life is stronger than the hard chip. And I'm not saying, oh, it's hard. No, no, don't worry, it's not hard as you think it is. Yes, it's hard. Yes, unfairness is there. Yes, some people are not treated as as they should be. And and it's not saying, well, oh, you know, no, oh everything is rose, the the world is good, and no, no, no. The hardships is is a real thing and we have to take it seriously. What matters is to have the belief that life will prevail. We have it. And with life, it's love, it's it's connection, it's growth, it's everything that supports life. It sounds a bit idealistic, and I I understand if people disagree uh with what I say, uh, it's okay. Because I I can't tell that because now I'm in a comfortable place and I see light and I see I see how my clients grow and transform, and I I see the beauty in in those people. So from that place, of course, it's easy for me to say, oh no, even in the most ugly situation, the life is there, and believe in yourself. That uh yes, for people who are in pain, it can be very difficult to hear what I'm saying. I agree. And still I maintain it life will prevail. Life prevails at at some point. And it's just uh sometimes it's just a blink. Wow, it changes. There's uh a change all of a sudden, you don't even it's sometimes at the when you least expect it when you release effort, when you release the the pain, something shifts all the sudden, and then the light grows. And listening to me myself and what are you saying?

SPEAKER_01 43:12

But I I understand it perfectly, you know. There is the kind of pain that you take take things one day at a time. Yeah. And there is the kind of pain where it's uh one breath at a time. Yeah. But eventually it's two breaths. Eventually it's like one hour and one day, and then and you notice, oh, today I'm feeling better, and maybe the next day you won't.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

But uh and and and there is uh and it's I think it's acceptance, but not giving up. It's it's it's different. Because in acceptance, there's still we mentioned being feeling powerless. Uh in acceptance you still have the power. And giving up, you give up your power. Your agency. So yeah, I hope I give hope to some people and I can understand if people being in very dark places in very difficult moments. Of course I'm thinking of people uh under bombs and and uh i in war times, I would understand they don't accept what I'm saying. And yeah, life prevails.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

What advice would you give to the younger generations?

Gratitude And Younger Generations

SPEAKER_00 44:40

First of all, I would be humble and acknowledge that we are from different generations and the world around me when I was at their age was totally different. So from this humble place, I would advise to cultivate gratitude, being aware of what is there already, being in that moment, grateful for what is offered. And I think it's already huge. I might be wrong, but I think there's so many discontent and wanting to have more from a materialistic point of view, a bigger house, a bigger car, uh more from that point of view. So yeah, being grateful, it's already difficult. It's already a challenge, I think, for for this generation, because they have been brought up in a very materialistic uh society. And we have built up around them a system where you need to have those shoes, those habits, uh, those yeah, material things around you. It's all consumption.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

We we basically train them to consume, consume, consume, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Yeah, they are built, they are trained, they're uh this isn't the system. They don't question. Well, some of them do question it. Some of them have developed uh a deep consciousness about nature and environment and sustainability. And yeah, gratitude uh is very important, very, very important. It grounds us. And I think it's it's very challenging. So maybe it would be my big advice. Cultivate gratitude every day. Make it an habit.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

What habit or daily routine has been the most helpful to you? So I think gratitude will be one of gratitude is one of them.

Morning Pages And Creative Habits

SPEAKER_00 46:53

When I'm very tense and very oh unhappy, yeah, when I feel tensions in my shoulders, I I start with gratitude, which I am grateful for. I took up the piece of advice of Julia Cameron. Maybe you've heard about her. She wrote a book, even a program, a 12-week program for artists to cultivate, to grow up the artist mindset. It's called the artist way or something like that. Anyway, and in this program, she has two there are two routines. One of them is writing three pages in the morning. First thing, before anything else, writing down uh three pages. So journaling, if you want. It's it's it's not journaling per se, but you it's okay to remember that writing pages in the morning. And the other routine is um she calls it the artist date. It's you can you do something for yourself, for your creative self, uh, once per week. So once per week, an activity to nurture your creativity. You can go to the museum, listen to music, read a book, uh draw, paint, once per week. I'm bad at this one. I'm very bad. I tend to skip it. Also I know it how how wonderful it is, how how grinding it is. I do the free pages in the morning. I do it, and sometimes I skip it because I don't have the time, I'm busy in the morning. I don't know. Uh I'm so glad when I go back to it. So I have a um it it helps me in good times, in less good times. It allows me to pour my my thoughts on paper and to use my hand. I do it by hand. It's very useful because you connect with your body. And I didn't mention that, but our emotions are in our body. So it's important to have this relation with the body and not be just in the in the mind. Uh so that's my routine. One of them. One of them, but this one is very important to me.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

I I love this the artist way, you find something that feeds your creativity, and even if somebody is not an artist, to make a list of things that uh bring that spark back into their lives. Yes. And do one of those activities once a week. That is such a good tip. Thank you so much for this.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

Be the artist of your of your life could be summarized. That's so nice. I love that. Be the artist of your life. Yeah.

Alignment, Friday Reflections, Joy

SPEAKER_01 49:59

What should we focus on if we want a happy life? Consciousness.

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Um all what we said, being aligned with uh one's values, alignment makes our life meaningful, full, grounded, uh coherent. When you have this coherence. So that's one one other routine. Every Friday I reflect on how I've been aligned with my values. What did I do or how did I show up this week when it comes to my values? So to to be to do it very um yes, as a routine, very consciously. That makes it a very happy life. And connect I I would have con because connections are matters to me. Connect, consciously connect. It comes from being aware of one's values and cultivating it every week.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

We keep going back to values. This is going to be the most important, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 51:05

Yeah, we we go back to that.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

Looking back on your life, yeah, is there anything you regret or anything you would do differently if you had the chance?

Regrets, Kindness, Less Judgment

SPEAKER_00 51:24

Again, this one is wow, am I so old to have those questions? Uh it's easier now for me because I'm at this stage of comfortable place to say that, but I would say I would be kinder to myself. I've been at some time I was I want uh to have this exam, this uh accreditation, this certification, this thing, this that I wonder if it was not a lack of of confidence. And I know society needs certifications or exams to to see your value. You can't escape it. So I understand why I wanted those uh diplomas, those certifications. It's okay. Yet I wonder if I wasn't at some point too hard on me, and not being grounded enough, being more focused on what the society needs, and not being grounded on what I can offer, how I can contribute as a person, not as someone with those badges, blah blah blah blah. It's fine to have badges. Uh I'm not saying that uh don't take diplomas, don't don't take exams. Certainly not. Do take exams and do I would um be kinder on myself, being more aware of who I am and what I have to offer. Yeah. Or be more uh connected to to me as a person. This is what I would do. Um actually less judgmental about myself and about others. Let go of judgment. And once I've said that, I wonder if it's not um a life quest. Letting go of judgment. It's it might be uh yeah, something you you work till the end of your life. Perhaps, yeah. So being less judgmental. I regret I've been too judgmental at some point, not connected enough. Thank you so much, Kathy.

Closing Reflections

SPEAKER_01 53:55

You're welcome. Thank you for so much. Thank you for the conversation and thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. I really appreciate it. Likewise, every year. Thank you for listening. This was the best part show. Take what resonates, leave what doesn't. And remember, life is precious. Make the best. Until next time.