Permission to Fail, Fail Again, and Fail Better - with Baya Salmon-Hawk

The moment in midlife when you finally have space again might not be what you imagined. The kids are older, the career is stable, the house runs, and still a sharp question lands: is this it? I’m joined by Baya Salman-Hawk, an “enchantress” with roots in psychotherapy, EFT tapping, and shamanic healing, to talk about what happens when a woman is done performing the roles and is ready to come back to herself, with everything she has lived included.

We explore Baya’s idea of the Enchantress Years, the stage between the mother and the crone where power returns in a new form. Not the power of pleasing, coping, and holding it all together; but the power of knowing what you want, and even without a perfect plan, doing it anyway. We talk about why society makes this transition harder than it needs to be, why role models for later life creativity are still rare, and how stories and myth can either shrink women or set them free.

We also get practical. Baya breaks down EFT tapping for nervous system regulation, stress relief, and emotional clarity, plus a simple way to stop feeding outside noise: “There’s nothing here for you.” Along the way we touch on daily habits like short yoga sessions, walking in nature, letting feelings move through you, and the mindset that changes everything: fail, fail again, fail better.

To learn more about Baya's work visit her website questfortheenchantress.com or check out her Facebook group EFT for Hope.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us Baya!

Transcript

Welcome To The ZestPal Show

Speaker 2 0:04

Hi there, welcome to the ZestPal Show. I'm your host, Gabriella, and together with my guests we explore how to navigate life, what really matters, and how we can all build a life that we actually enjoy. Come and join us. In this episode, my guest is Baya Salmon-Hawk. Baya is an enchantress with an extensive background in psychotherapy, EFT tapping, and shamanic healing. Working with women who feel like they've ticked all the boxes motherhood, career, home, stability, and still find themselves asking, is this it? Here we talk about the power of middle-aged women and the stage in between the mother and the crone, daring to try and fail and doing it anyway, learning from stories and nature, and of course, the deeper questions in life. Enjoy. It's a pleasure to have you on the show, Baya. Thanks for joining us. So tell me a little bit more about yourself. What is it that you do and what is your story?

Speaker 1 1:02

Okay, well, have you got you have you got several hours? So I'm originally from France, from the south of France. I now live in Ireland and I lived in the UK for a long time. I've had many, many, many, many jobs in my life. And uh in probably about 30 years ago, um, I decided to become a psychotherapist. So I work in mental health for a number of years, and then I decided that I didn't like it because that's very much the way I am. I go from one thing to another and explore, and I'm an explorer thing. That's if you define me, it's more like I'm an explorer of things. And I am one of those people who get bored very easily. And once I've explored the topic in depth, then I need to find somewhere else, something else to explore. So I explored, and I'm absolutely fascinated by the human brain and how we create ourselves, how we are born one way, and then somehow we become another thing altogether. And then I'm very interested in how do we become the other thing and then come back to whom we started off being. And I think that is the story of the human journey, really. And that's kind of what I do. I help people bring themselves back to themselves with the context. This is a bit complicated maybe, but I hope it makes sense because you have to keep it in the context of what is happening to you now. So you can't think to yourself, oh, I'll go back to who I was when I was 20. Because that's pointless. And lots of people do that. They go, oh, you know, I'm free now, my children have left home or whatever, I've retired or whatever. And I'm just going to be me again, I'm going to be 20. But you can't, that's not possible. What you have to do is you have to go and get the 20-year-old, bring them through to you, and then kind of integrate and then become something else. So that's sort of what I do. And I use, well, I've used my background in psychotherapy because that's very sound, particularly about how to have relationships with people. But then I don't work as a psychotherapist. I'm not very interested in people's histories. I don't tend to work that much in the past. Uh, if we come across the past, that's fine. But otherwise, I don't focus on the past. I think it's much more important to focus on the present. And then uh I use shamanic healing because the actual structure of the shamanic view of the world makes sense to me. And I use EFT tapping because it's the best tool I've ever encountered to help people calm their nervous system. So what is EFT tapping? Can you tapping it a bit more? Yeah, EFT tapping is a technique that you tap with the fingers of your hand on acute pressure points on your face. And it has been proven now, I mean, there's lots and lots of research, proper scientific research about it, um, that heat, the actual action of tapping on these points calms your nervous system down. It's one of the best treatments for PTSD now, um, and recommended. It's being taught in universities, in psychology departments. It ends the beauty of the FT tapping, which is why I believe it is still not universally taught, because I think it should be taught in schools, um, because you can do it yourself. See, if you have something complicated, yes, yes, you need to talk to me and I will help you deal with it because it can be complicated. But if you just want to use it to manage your emotions, to allow yourself to think again, once if you're feeling a bit overwhelmed or if you're feeling a bit confused, as we do, or with emotions, if you do the tapping, then that will help yourself. You'll you know, your brain will kick back, you'll start thinking again. And you can do that on your own, you don't need me. If I teach it to you, then you can go away and do it yourself. And that doesn't make, you know, that doesn't make the world we live in go around.

Speaker 2 5:27

It's all business, isn't it? It's all business.

The Enchantress Between Mother And Crone

Speaker 1 5:30

So, yeah, so that's kind of like my background. Yeah, and now I'm working on this idea that I'm fascinated by the stories we put upon ourselves. And there is a story that I was was put upon me, in that I'm in the pagan tradition, so I follow, I'm not a witch, but I follow the cycles of nature, the Celtic festival, I'm going to Celtic myth, I'm a storyteller as well. I use stories a lot. And uh, when I um my son left home and and and I knew that there were three ages of women the maiden, who is the young girl, and then there's the mother, who is the one that makes babies or starts a business. You know, it's the sort of mothering phase.

Speaker 6:16

Yeah.

Speaker 1 6:16

And then there is this other person called the crone. And uh, when I my son left home finally, um I was looking around, thinking, well, what's the plan then? And then it became, you know, you're a crone now. And I thought, I'm not a crone, what? And I started looking at it this crone creature who seems to be sitting by the fire, you know, I don't know. And they're not very, they're very, for me anyway, they're very powerless, but not very nice either. There's a lot in in Ireland that she's called the carrier, and she is, she's not nice. I'm sorry, but she really isn't, she's a trickster, and she's she pursues people with stones. There's a lot of myth about her. You know, she's the woman of winter as well. I don't want to be the woman of winter, I thought to myself. And then I I, because I love the Arthurian stories, thought, hold on a minute, let me have a look at the women in the Arthurian stories, the Kings, the King Arthur stories. And I thought, there's all these women. There's Morgan Le Fay, there's Guinevere, which is older, there's Morgose, who is the queen of the Orkness. And I'm thinking, ooh, these women are very powerful women. And they are not young, they're not maidens. They are mothers, but mothers in the later ages of motherhood. Their children are growing up. So this sounds very interesting. Then I realized they were all witches or nasty enchantresses, nasty, basically, unpleasant women. And I thought, I wonder why this happened. And then, of course, I realized that all these stories were written down by Christian monks. So I believe all this started. So then I thought I wonder if I could do some work about this idea of there's a space between the mother and the crone. There's another thing for women who want to find themselves, free themselves from the constraints that they had to create around the mothering. I mean, mothering is very difficult. And our society demands a lot of mothers of mothers, very strong. You know, there's a lot of pressure on mothers from the moment the baby is conceived. It's actually quite horrible, I think. And uh so there's a lot of pressure, and and then you know, you spend 20 years of your life, let's face it, helping another human being to create themselves. And then you're let you're spent, you're done. And then what do you do? Well, you sit around and wait to die, but that's not going to happen to me. So I've started this whole idea of helping women to find their enchantress because women don't have that problem. I don't think I might be entirely wrong, but I think men never let never become wholly involved in being fathers. They don't have that same a hundred percent focus. Yeah. And that means that they are still developing themselves alongside being fathers. So they're fathers and da-d-da. But mothers find it very difficult to do that. Um, and society as such does not really um facilitate mothers to have, you know, we you can work, but then you're constantly juggling everything. Yeah. And you're constantly feeling guilty because you're neither one thing nor another. And you know, the actual expectancy of what you should be doing for your children is phenomenal and very, very new, really. Yeah. Because I don't think, I certainly cannot remember, and it's much worse for your generation and mine. Um, because I think the constraints are extraordinary, you know. I mean, from the moment a baby's conceived, the mother can't do this, that, the other, there's lists and lists of things are forbidden. It's crazy. Absolutely extraordinary. And no, and women are doing it because they're threatened. You know, if you don't do it, then your child you'd suffer. And that was that's a general thing. So if you're used to that and that idea in your mind, and then what and very often at that the age of when your children have have left, and you can be an enchantress at any age, I've also realized. So you don't have to be a particular age. Um, but it's I think it's for me the absolute ultimate point of the enchantress, and that is that she knows what she wants. She's no idea how she's going to get there, but she does it anyway. And that isn't, I think women particularly uh if uh I was when you if you would be back, you know, when you were five, whatever, six, seven, you wanted to be a ballerina or whatever, little girls very often do, or you wanted to be an actress in my case. And I'd never I'd no doubt in my mind whatsoever that I would be that. And then slowly I I was told that no, I wasn't good enough, or it wasn't just whatever. And then you went on. And that is what I'm I'm helping women to recover that. I can do, I can do this. I have no idea how I'm going to do it, but I'm doing it anyway. And that doesn't, and that's the effort as well. So it's not like you're going to create a vision board, God help us all, or you're going to tap into it. Well, you can if you want, but but actually you're going to work at it.

Speaker 2 11:53

I think there's a tremendous potential that frees up once your children have grown up. Yes. Or once you retired from a job that you've been doing for I don't know how many years, and you you still feel very much capable and and and you want to be useful and you and you want to explore something, and uh the role models are not there. It's like are we supposed to just gently fade into irrelevance and or yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1 12:17

And we have all these gifts to give. I mean, we've lived, we can teach a lot, but somehow, yes, we drift into irrelevance, or we go into old people's, you know, we have coffee mornings, oh God help us all. Or do we weird, you know, it's like I don't know. But you could, you know, at any point, I mean, there's so many examples of, I think it's Margaret Atwood started writing in her 70s. There's people published in their 80s. I mean, Louise Hay was very old when she started, not comparatively old when she started, because it's the it's the age of I can do anything. Because actually the bottom line is you don't care anymore. Yes. You really don't. You don't care what people think of you mostly. And your children are more or I mean they never are gone, but they're more or less. So you have all this brain space.

Speaker 13:08

Yeah.

Speaker 1 13:09

And you might as well use it. And that's where the enchantress comes in, because there are so many examples. So I'm using, I'm using history because I was going to use, I wanted to use real people, but you can't, because that would be you're contemporary people, but you can't because of libel and whatever. So I thought, no, I'll use historical figures. So I've got five women that I'm working with who are sort of more or less in different at different times in history, but all have the same thing. They seemingly woke up one morning, looked at the world, and went, hold on a minute, and did something. And against all the odds, impossible things. And they did it. They didn't always end, it didn't always end up well, because that's the other thing, is you don't have anything to lose. Because you've done it. Whatever, you know, you've done the children, you've done your business, or whatever. You bought your house if you're lucky, or whatever. And that's it. So what next? Yeah.

Speaker 2 14:10

And I think the world very much needs women who are who are ready to go and try and what may, but uh, at least they tried. Yeah.

Speaker 1 14:20

Yeah. That's it. At least they tried. Because I mean, because of the um the way the world is as well. So I've been looking a lot about the second world war and how how the the rebellion happened in the second world war, how people got themselves motivated to resist what was going on in the world. Um, and it's it's also really interesting because they seemingly were able to not, I mean, I'm sure they were scared, but they did it anyway. Yes. So they knew the risk, they knew that they would, they, they risked whatever. But somehow, and that's kind of like I'm fascinated by that. Yeah, because I think we've lost that ability to go on doing it anyway. And if I fail, then I will that's fine. Yeah, and and so that's my favorite quote on the planet ever. Samuel Beckett, and I don't know where, but he said that in one of his plays. He said, fail, fail again, fail better. Uh-huh. I love that. And I love that. That's I want that on my on my tombstone. She failed, failed again, but failed better.

Speaker 2 15:30

I love that. Brilliant thing.

Speaker 1 15:32

Yeah.

Speaker 2 15:32

Also, one of the things that uh made me start ZestPal was the statistic that uh how many people die with regrets. And it's uh it's a huge percentage. And what they regret is not what they did, rather what they didn't do. Yeah. And this uh I just want to encourage people to do the thing they want to do while they still can, not when they are on their deathbed and there is absolutely nothing that they can do about it, but but why they alive to just do it.

Speaker 1 16:03

And even if you do it badly, it doesn't matter, you've done it.

Speaker 2 16:06

Yeah. And to me, you are a person who uh very much lives like this. If uh you have an idea and and you go and do it, and uh you don't feel good in one place, you go and move somewhere else. And to me, you are a role model because of this. Thank you. You live your life on your terms, but uh I wonder what it takes to do that. How can people do that?

Speaker 1 16:32

I've always I mean that is it's very much in my nature. I've as I said, I've had loads of jobs because I'm like, okay, I've done that, I want to do something else. Um I'm eternally curious, and I think that's really important. And I'm endlessly fascinated, as I said, by the human brain. And it's kind of like my study, really. I kind of study the human brain and the older new, the new the new way we we sort of understand it now. I mean, I I know that that we have a brain in our guts, which just does my head in, but you know, there's this whole thing going on. But I I think I also think that my relationship with nature makes a difference because I walk on the land a lot and I watch what's happening, and there is an eternal comfort in that. Whatever happens in the world outside of us, whatever men and women get up to, whatever nonsense is going on, if you go and watch a tree, you can just take a tree, any tree, doesn't matter where, just go and watch it as it as the seasons turn, and you will observe that the tree knows exactly what it's doing. The tree never goes, I always say that a tree does not go into you've never have you ever seen a tree run around in hysterics because it's losing its leaves? No, the tree just does that, and then the leaves compost, and then the and then all the energy goes back in the roots, and then it and then it comes back again. And however bad, the weather, whatever, the tree manages to do the thing that it does. And sometimes the harvest is not so good, sometimes the harvest is brilliant, but again, nature doesn't go around, oh dear god, this is terrible, and you know, the harvest has failed. Just just kind of gets on with it and starts the cycle again. I think that makes a difference, and you you you know, and yeah, I think that makes a difference. So I think living your life as close to as honourably as you can, and as close to your vibe, and you have to find out what you really believe in. And that's also a quest. You know, there's a lot of quests in my life, and also learning from nature, but also learning from the stories, the old stories, you know, because it's like, oh my god, if I, you know, the women I'm using, one of them is is um St. Burchitov Kildare. And uh, and I mean the the thing that young that woman did, you can believe it. And and you learn from that. Because to start off with, I started telling her story in schools because that was my job as a storyteller. And uh my heart sank, to be honest, because I'm not Christian, I'm not Catholic, well, I'm Baptist Catholic, but not Catholic. So I was like, oh God, you know, I've got to absolutely some budget of Kilda. I started looking at the story, her history, the real her. I was like, oh my goodness, this woman is amazing, you know. Forget about the saint, and she was extraordinary, and she had that conviction that she was doing the right thing. And not because, I mean, some of the women I'm working with have a sense that God told them to do something, which is fine, because sometimes the gods do that, but you know, she just did it, she went and did things. I'm not going to, you know, because I'm telling the stories in my program, but she was just extraordinary. And not only did she do it, but she got what she wanted. Yeah. And didn't kill anyone in the process. That's the other thing. That's when you women very rarely kill people to get to where they want to go. They find a way around it, that somehow they find a way. So conviction is a good conviction, yeah. It's like a compassion. Yes, the nature and conviction. Yeah. Because nature will always tell you where to go and what's okay and what's not safe, usually. Yeah.

What Matters Most In Life

Speaker 2 20:52

I love that. Right, shall we move on to these deeper questions in mind then What are the things that truly matter in life, in your opinion?

Speaker 1 21:10

The thing, the one thing that matters is we've on as far as we know, we've only got one. Might as well live it. To the absolute best way we can. And to the very best of our abilities, follow what we internally feel is right, and not and try to, because it's not easily done, but it's try to not listen to what we are told we should or shouldn't be doing. Yeah. That's it. That for me, that's it. Just always remember what a privilege it is to be alive. Millions people are not, trillions people are not.

Speaker 2 21:50

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. But it's hard to resist, I think, uh the people that tell you what you should or shouldn't do. It it sounds easy, but it's difficult to do.

A Spell For Ignoring Outside Noise

Speaker 1 22:02

It's very difficult. So one one of the things that I have been pra I practiced, something I'm telling you a story. Can I tell you a story quickly? Absolutely. There is a legend, whether if it's true or not, I don't know. That during the at the beginning of the Second World War, as Hitler was going to invade Britain, Britain, and they knew it was he was they it was going to happen. This is a story. So the witches of England got together. Now it so happens that at the time there was a revival of the old religion, and mostly run by men. But anyway, and it is said that they went to Kent and for 30 days they stood on the edge of the beaches and they said the following thing You cannot come if there's nothing here for you. Nothing to see, nothing to take. There's nothing here for you. So they did not put shields up and do spell and incantations, no. They very simply said, There's nothing here. Nothing to see. Nothing. And it is, of course, he didn't debate. Maybe it was the witches, maybe it wasn't. Legend has it that they did the same thing for when Napoleon was about to take over. And when the Armada came, he raised the wind. It's a beautiful story. But it is a method that for actually helping you not listen. Is to listen, not to block, to listen. And in your mind eye, say to yourself, I can hear you, I can see you, but there's nothing here for me. And to allow all of that to go through you. So you're not blocking it, you're not stopping anything, you're not bracing yourself. You're just going, uh, that's interesting. And there's nothing here for you. Nothing to see. I'm not feeding you, I'm not getting involved in this, this is nothing to do with me. Nothing here. There's nothing here for you. And you will find, now teach that a lot. You will find that works really well. Yeah. And if you feel caught in, you know, because we all get caught in the, you know, in the dramas and the stories. Again, if you do it and do the EFT tapping at the same time, and say to yourself, Well, I forgive myself, I got caught up, and that's okay. I'm letting it go. I'm moving on. There's nothing here for me.

Speaker 2 24:49

I love that thing about EFT tapping. You have a Facebook group, and uh I usually can't see your things live, but I do watch the recordings, and I love it that you don't have to fight uh whatever it is, but that part that uh I accept it, I can see it, I accept it, and this is where I am. I think this is so important rather than fighting and denying, and it's not yes, it's such a yeah, because also again, you know, when they did that, if they did it, we don't know.

Speaker 1 25:21

I mean, it's a story, so who knows? But and I I mean I I knew that one of my teachers who's now dead, but she swore her grandmother did it. So I don't know, whatever, but doesn't matter because actually these people didn't know what what they were doing, they just knew that they were not, it wasn't, it was going to they're trying to help, and they didn't know the consequences and they didn't know what would happen next. But the reality is it didn't happen because if it had happened, then England would have been lost. So whatever little help, what does it matter? You know, whatever you can do, and you can't fight. You see, um, somebody was saying to me yesterday, oh, I want to do a ritual and burn things. And I was like, don't burn things, that's far too violent. Just allow them to melt into water, you know, or whatever, but or or light a candle and allow the smoke. Because all this business about burning things, shielding yourself, bracing, that does not help, because it gives more power to the energy you are, you know, that it's like, I mean, I I you know, you you hear those voices, and instead of immediately going, because your nervous system goes bristles, you just relax, relax, relax, relax, relax. There's nothing here for you. I can hear you, I can see you. I'm not fighting here, and I'm not buying it. This is nothing to do with me. Don't like it. Nobody's asking you to like any of it, obviously. This is not like, you know, and I'm going to passively accept it. No, this is not about acceptance, this is about letting it through you. Yeah. I'm not accepting any of it. I hate it, and I will not eat it. I will not drink it, I will not take part in this. This is not, there's nothing here for you. I'm glad you do.

Fail Better And Do It Wrong

Speaker 2 27:32

What are the most important lessons you have learned in life?

Speaker 1 27:36

Fail. Fail. Fail again. Do it wrong, do it wrong, do it wrong, do it wrong. You're very unlikely to ever do it right. Silently. Oh, and don't listen to our uh other people telling you how to do it right. I mean, it is the it is the the disaster of this uh age. We are constantly being told how to do it right. I mean, I was having this conversation with someone about writing, and they were saying to me, Oh, you have to do it this way and that way, and the structure, and that. And that's like Charles Dickens just wrote books. He just wrote books, and he started writing the book, and then he wrote another one. And every single writer in the 19th century would just write, and then the book would sell, the book wouldn't sell. But there was not that pressure of has to be done this way. And if you buy my course, I will teach you how to do it right. If you go to university and do a degree, you can do it right. No, it doesn't work like that. So I think that is also an important thing. You've got to do it wrong, you've got to do it your way. And it doesn't matter. And you say to me, for example, Gabrielle, you say to me, this group I run, EFT for Hope, EFT for Hope on on Facebook. I do something every Wednesday at 5 p.m. Dublin time. I have no idea if anyone ever watches it. And sometimes I want to throw it all in the air because nobody ever comments or anything, and I want to, you know, I want to give it up. And I don't, because I actually I enjoyed myself. So it's a good opportunity for me to be exploring things about my for me. But then you say to me, Oh, I I I catch up, I listen. Yeah, yeah. And that's it. So no, I don't fail. No, it doesn't matter. No, I don't bombard people with messages. No, it whoever needs to watch it does. And that's that is one of the secrets as well, that one of the lessons is if you want to do something, do it. Don't expect it to bring you any anything in particular. Do it because you enjoy it. And of course I want people to to you know to to watch it, but do I really? I don't know, maybe. But it's not the most important thing.

Speaker 30:00

Yeah.

Speaker 2 30:01

Does that make sense? Yeah. Makes perfect sense. I don't think and also what's right for one person is not right for another person.

Speaker 1 30:09

Exactly. And today it might work, another day will not, or vice versa, it doesn't matter. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 30:22

What advice would you give to the younger generations?

Speaker 1 30:27

Whatever happens is going to be okay. It doesn't matter. And and please, please, please, please don't give up on your dreams. Don't listen to the oldest. Don't listen to me. Don't listen to them. Just do it. It doesn't matter. Again, I remember um again a young person saying to me once, oh my god, I don't have an option B. They wanted to be an actor. And then that was it. That was all. And I was like, go for it, go for it, go for it. And they were like, but but but what happens if it doesn't work? And I was like, well, we'll work, we'll we'll work that out if it doesn't work. But meanwhile, have a go. What do you have to lose again? Particularly in the context of young people now, because they have no hope of ever owning a house. The work situation is very bad. Uh, they have nothing really to, you know, there's no there's no structure. I mean, we had the structure, you know, you you got married, you you you you built you bought a house, you got a mortgage, dad-de-da-de-da. They have none of that because they can't afford it. Basically, they can't afford to have children even, which is really nobody's talking about that, but that's kind of problematic. Or they might not want children. But it's like, have a go. You know, seriously. You have nothing to lose. And you can live on very little money. There are people that, oh, I can't afford it. Yes, you can, seriously. And I've noticed and I live on an on a British pension, so I'm not, you know, don't you think that I'm making lots of money because I'm not. But it's like, and I've always, I've never been rich or anything, I've always somehow managed. You know, you are actually not necessarily, you can manage. You're just it'd be tough, but you can manage.

Speaker 2 32:16

Yeah, I love that. I don't think people are taught this enough. No.

Speaker 1 32:20

And also, you don't have to go to university. You really don't. If you you learn to be a plumber, learn to be a woodworker, learn to be an electrician and read books. I mean, historically, I mean, I look at my grandfather, who was a foundry worker. I come from a very poor working class background, and he was one of the most intellectual people I know. And my granddad worked all his life, you know, 50, 60 hours a week, was a manual worker, and read books, went to night school, which you can do now. I mean, you've got the internet, you've got an entire world there. You can go for free. You can go to any university, they will have free classes and get a trade. Because that is an amazing, nobody ever does, nobody does it. You will make a fortune. You will work whenever you want to work. Yeah. And you can be an actor at the same time, or a writer, or anything like that. Yeah. Because it will not consume you. So, yeah, that would be another thing.

Speaker 2 33:23

Learning a trade is almost more secure, I think, nowadays, because of AI than going to university and you can't be replaced yet if you're a trader. Does it?

Speaker 1 33:34

And you can build your own house. Seriously. Because if that's what it takes, you know, the way things are going. I mean, I would not ever advise a young person to go to university. I think they're just going to teach you how you should be doing things and destroy every ounce of talent you have about anything. Because in my days, universities, I remember my philosophy teacher, uh, because I studied philosophy at university, and of course I did not understand then. But he would say universities are not to teach you a job or a trade, they're to teach you how to be a better human being. Okay, and I was like, what? And he used to say that, because that's what universities should do. They should not be teaching you a trade. You know, they're there to teach you how to use your mind differently, how to broaden your mind, how to have experiences. And yes, you know, how to get drunk with your friends. That's what you want to do, how to experience different, you know, how to be away from your parents or whatever. But they're not there to teach you a trade, you know?

Speaker 2 34:44

Yeah, that's right. That's right. I think this will change in the coming decades. I think less people will go.

Speaker 1 34:52

Yes, yeah.

Speaker 2 35:00

What habit or daily routine has been the most helpful to you?

Speaker 1 35:04

For the last nine, uh, eight years, seven years, I do yoga every day. Absolutely every day. I do 15 minutes, nothing, and it is essential to my well-being. Um, and and also I move, I go for a walk every day as well. I have to go for a walk every day, otherwise, again, to go and check what's going on on the land. Basically to go and see what's going on, what's growing, what's happening, or what's dying. But yoga for me is absolutely essential. And again, 15, 20 minutes a day. I very rarely do more than that. Because I've found that if I go for half an hour, 45 minutes, an hour, I just exhaust myself. And then you know, you have to just do what's right, just the right amount.

Speaker 35:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2 35:54

No, that's that's great advice, actually. And 15 minutes is always doable. However, busy somebody is, they they might not have an hour, but they will have 15 minutes.

Speaker 1 36:03

That's it. And if you do, and you can do it in bed. I mean, it's a you go on YouTube and you will find people like do you 15 minutes of yoga in bed. You don't have to get up, you just do it in bed. You can do morning yoga in bed, evening yoga, it doesn't matter. And it's a great I do it in the morning because that's my way of getting myself um, you know, going in the day, but you can do it in the evening and it will help you go to sleep, you know? And it's amazing at the moment I do yoga pilates, how much your body can, how much more my body can do now than I've been doing it that for three months or whatever. But I can't believe the uh you know how my body's changed, and it's 15 minutes a day, which is I think better than an hour a week. But that's my opinion. But you know, yeah.

Speaker 2 36:59

What is the best way to overcome difficulties or hardship?

Speaker 1 37:05

In my case, let you let yourself feel it. Scream, rant, rave, wail, cry, tap. So whilst you're doing all that tapping, I mean I can tap and go, and you know, and go um and swear loudly. Um, swear very loudly and tap, even though, oh my god, I'm not, I can't cope, I'm not, I can't do this. And then let it again let it out. Don't sit on it. And it's like, you know, if um it's it's this feeling of you cut yourself and then it goes, and then it's and the blood has got to pour out. Well, it's the same in life. If bad things happen, just let it out. Go and scream. I mean, don't scream at people, go and find somewhere safe, and just I've I've done that. I love it. I mean, I've done it for quite well, but I do it in my car. Park the car somewhere, put some really hard music on, and I got and then I let it out, leave the I open the windows. I tell you, people always think I'm mad, I'm sorry, whoever's listening. It's amazing because you're you're just let it out, let it out, and then breathe back in. Yeah, and then think, okay, what is it I need right now? And then get it. Get it, whatever it is, and just have enough of it. Because in my mind, I'd be like, oh, I want to, you know, what if I say I want a piece of chocolate? And uh and I'm like, oh God, I would oh no, because you just let how many how much you need of it. Because we we're told you mustn't eat your feelings, but you wouldn't be eating your feelings because you've just done your feelings. So whatever you feel like you need, just do it. And also try to work out what is the next feeling. So you feel because very often if we're feeling bad, overwhelmed, angry, upset, there's feelings have to ro have to rotate. They always do. So what is underneath the feeling? Yes, and then what is underneath that feeling until you get to some sense of equilibrium.

Speaker 39:29

Yeah.

Speaker 2 39:30

Because the the feeling is trying to show you something about your life, there is a reason for that feeling.

Speaker 1 39:36

Yes, yeah, and it's difficult to not go into do. So I'm staying with this, I'm staying with this, I'm staying with this until I'm empty. And then I'm going to contemplate what next. But I have to be empty because otherwise there's no what next. Because I have not digested whatever is going on. Yeah.

Speaker 2 40:07

What should we focus on if we want a happy life, a good life?

Speaker 1 40:13

Again, sunset, sunrise, the beauty around us, finding beauty everywhere you can find beauty. You know, and again, it's it's is it Peter Frankel who wrote about his experience at Outroots, I think it was. And that guy survived because he could find beauty in anything, partly. But I mean, actually studying what he had to say about that. And I think people survived because they could find beauty in things. There's beauty everywhere, and it's easy for me to say because I live in a very beautiful place and I live in the Western world, and nobody is bombing my house right now, and I understand that. Yeah. And yet I think people who survive find beauty in any in anywhere.

Speaker 2 41:07

I agree with that. There is a Hungarian Holocaust survivor who moved to the US who just died yesterday or a couple of days ago, Edith Egger. And uh she was 16 when she was in Auschwitz and her whole family perished. She survived, and she became a psychologist later. And instead of being consumed by the trauma, she uh she decided to live in revenge almost to show this uh appreciating the beauty of being alive and just making the most of life. This is exactly the same. Uh I think it's uh it's a much better approach than than looking back. Yes.

Speaker 1 41:52

Because I think I think my my profession, the psychotherapy world, which was uh let's not forget, created after the trauma of the second world war by people who had been traumatized by the second world war, but sadly never looked at that. I this may be controversial, but I will I believe that to be the case. And so what we've done is we've made it, it's okay because you had a terrible childhood, so you're just going to have whatever trauma, and then the trauma is what it's all about. And I'm not denying that people have trauma, but if you make your life about whatever trauma you have been through, or you are going to go through, or whatever, there's no joy in any of that. Yeah. And you're surrendering your power to other people again. Exactly. We can't, we can't, we can't be saying, oh, well, this is happening because I'm traumatized. No, that doesn't it doesn't work like that. Yes, by all means, uh do some work about it, but also live instead in in spite of it, as you said. Yeah, this was her story. Yes. Show that's your way of winning over everything, everybody that ever did anything to you. You're just, you know, you're just showing them that you don't care. Yeah. Anyway, it's you know, and that's not being denying it, because I don't think the person you're talking about was denying what had happened. Oh, of course not. You did it in spite of it. In spite and the spite is the important word. Because that's the revenge.

Speaker 43:22

Yeah.

Regret With The Lesson Kept

Speaker 2 43:30

Looking back on your life, is there anything you regret or anything you would do differently if you had the chance?

Speaker 1 43:37

There's plenty of things I regret, which doesn't mean I wish I hadn't done them. Okay, I like that volume in there. Because, for example, I moved to Ireland and I really regret it. I wish I hadn't. Don't like it terribly much there. Sorry, Ireland. And at the same time, it was a really important transition time in my Life and I know that I was meant to be doing it. And very often, we oh, you mustn't have any regrets. Absolutely not true. Have plenty of regrets and find the teaching. I needed to do this obviously because I was meant to do it, because look, I had to learn. So, for example, for me, a moving child and terrible idea. I don't enjoy it particularly. I don't gel with the people here, and they're not my people, which is not their fault. It's just life. And this is very, very new experience for me. I've never experienced that because I'm very good at mingling. I'm a bit uh like a Caroline. So I it was not a good idea. However, because I moved to Ireland, I really I created the entire community online. You know, I work with Americans, I work with you, I work with people all over the world now. Now, if I hadn't moved to Ireland, I wouldn't have done that. Because I would have stayed in England and I would have been perfectly happy with my English community and it would have been fine. So this idea of balancing, I wish I hadn't, the regret, with and actually it was a really interesting experience. And I'd learnt a lot through it. Yeah. Because people say you mustn't regret. Why not? Who says? I don't know. I've made loads of mistakes in my life, and they've usually been miraculous things that have led to other things, you know?

unknown 45:31

So yes.

Speaker 2 45:31

I love that kind of thinking.

Closing Thoughts And Goodbye

Speaker 45:33

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 45:35

Thank you so much, Baya. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. Very appreciate it.

Speaker 1 45:42

Thank you so much for having me, Ani. It's been lovely, and it's been lovely to talk to you, and I feel very much heard by you as well. And very, very, very lovely. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 45:58

Thank you for listening. This was the Zest Basho. Take what resonates, leave what doesn't. And remember, life is precious. Make the most of it. Until next time.