Leadership, Growth, and Finding Contentment - with Neha Chatwani

What if self-leadership is the bottom line of leadership? We sit down with Neha Chatwani, organisational psychologist and founder of the Workplace Atelier, who walks us through her path from psychology to HR and leadership advisory. Neha tells us that leadership is not about your intention, but about the impact you actually have, and the question that every leader should ask themselves: why would anyone want to be led by you?

The conversation goes deep as we zoom out to wider societal topics. 

We talk about parenting ultimately being about accepting the child and nurturing their growth, and why it feels so overwhelming in small, isolated families. Neha explains what “it takes a village” can mean in everyday life, and how collective responsibility and social cohesion show up in small interactions on the street, at school, and in our communities. 

"Nobody said it was easy" says Neha as we talk about contentment as a goal and a daily practice, and acknowledge that life is not perfect: it's messy, and that's the fun part. 

If you care about leadership, personal growth, or building a good life with more clarity, this episode will stay with you. 

To learn more about Neha's work you can visit her website The Workplace Atelier, or connect with her on LinkedIn.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us Neha!

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Preview

Speaker 2 0:05

Hi there, welcome to the ZestPal Show. I'm your host Gabriella, and together with my guests, we explore how to navigate life, what really matters, and how we can immobile the life that we actually enjoy. Come and join us. In this episode, my guest is Neha Chatwani, organizational psychologist and founder of the Workplace Atelier, a HR and leadership advisory. We talk about why self-leadership is the bottom line of leadership. We make a detour into parenting and collective responsibility as a society. And of course, we talk about the deeper questions in life.

Speaker 1 0:42

Enjoy.

Speaker 2 0:43

It's

Neha’s Story And Career Shift

Speaker 2 0:44

a pleasure to have you on the show, Neya. Thanks for joining us. To begin with, tell me a little bit more about yourself. What is it that you do and what's your story?

Speaker 3 0:54

Thanks so much for having me, Gabriella. It's a great, great, great pleasure to be here with you. So, yeah, my name is Neha Chatwani. I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of the Workplace Atelier, which is an HR and leadership advisory based in Vienna, an international outfit. My background is obviously in psychology. I have a doctorate in business administration. And aside from consulting with companies, individuals, I also do a fair amount of academic work. So I do teach and I supervise theses. I actually started my career in human resource management and organizational development. And um yeah, 10 years ago I decided to become my own boss. And it's been an interesting journey ever since. And what made you choose this field? I think curiosity. So I know that my father was particularly keen that I go into the legal profession. And I

Why Psychology Won Her Over

Speaker 3 2:05

think he was very old-fashioned. For him, there were only a few professions that were interesting. One was obviously medicine, the other was obviously law, and then you could do finance, which is where he came from, and engineering. So I think he had like four options available for his kids, so to speak. And my brother and sister took two of those options, and I was this weird kid, the middle kid, of course, is always the weird kid. So I was the weird kid who actually wanted to become a social worker. And a social worker was not an academic degree, so he was very displeased with that uh idea. And it was actually my mother who convinced me that it would be valuable to do something at the university. And through several conversations, we came up with this idea of psychology, which obviously my father was not amused with, but felt was an okay compromise. It wasn't such a bad thing to study psychology. And that kind of made him smile. But I think until that point, he always felt it was a strange subject matter. You know, why would my daughter go out and deal with weirdos? That was kind of his way. Yeah. So I think in the end, what happened was in in our conversations, uh, we realized that what I was interested in most was what makes people tick. And how can you impact a more positive human outcome for people? How can you actually support them to be who they are and make the contribution they want to make? So that's where I was coming from with social work, and that's finally where I also ended up in psychology with a much broader view. And I'm happy I did it. I have to say that if I could choose again, I would choose the same subject.

Speaker 2 4:14

That's a nice feeling, I think, knowing that you you chose well. Absolutely, yeah. So what made you choose the uh within psychology, organizational psychology?

From Clinical Work To Workplaces

Speaker 3 4:27

Well, I um originally wanted to go into child psychology. That was the original plan and to have a practice of my own, so more the clinical uh side of psychology. And um so my studies were more engineered in this direction. I actually did several internships at the general hospital here in the psychiatric unit. I actually don't tell my corporate clients that I have that background. Uh, but it's helped me a lot. It's a very useful background to have. While I was there, I realized, at least at the time, I don't know if this is the case anymore, and this is quite a while ago now, uh, 30 odd years ago, the psychologists didn't really have a say. It was more the doctors that decided what happened to the patients. And I struggled with that. Okay, I felt that oftentimes um it didn't have to be a medical decision, it could have been a therapeutical decision for the patient. And through this experience, I actually decided to change my trajectory and go into working with normal quote unquote people. So people who were obviously not uh challenged and uh so the less obvious, if you like. And it was through this experience that I made the decision to go into organizational psychology and also leave the whole idea of being in the medical arena and go into the workplace arena, which is the place where we spend most of our lives, actually, right? So it was a tricky uh U-turn to make. I had to think of which skills do I have that I can use to transfer, because most of the people going into human resources at that time were coming from the University of Economics and Business, right? They had their own specialization in human resource management. And I was at the beginning of my career a total oddball. That wouldn't be the case anymore. So we're talking like 30 years ago, Central Europe. Uh so um it was a very strange thing to have somebody coming out of psychology, but there was one thing I was able to do very well, which they were not trained in, and that is I was able to interview people very well. I was able to ask good questions and listen carefully because it's kind of out of the diagnosis setting, right? And it was something they were not trained in at all coming out of the business university. And uh so I used that skill actually to ride myself into recruitment. And I topped it with a certification in labor law, in Austrian labor law, where I went to school for three nights a week for a whole semester to get an externally uh approved certification from the ministry. So that that was it. That was the the slide, if you want, the segue of actually moving out of a more clinically oriented uh area into um more business-oriented area. So I ended up being human resources.

Speaker 2 8:02

I didn't know you had the child psychology background. Can I ask you a question about this? Sure.

Parenting As Nurturing Growth

Speaker 2 8:09

So, from uh a parenting perspective, because this is one of my uh areas of interest, as a child psychologist, what would you say the most important thing is that parents can do for their children?

Speaker 3 8:25

Well, I'm not a I'm not a fully qualified child psychologist, right? So that was something I wanted to do and didn't and didn't do in the end, so I didn't become a clinical psychologist, which usually involves not only finishing the studies, but several years of further training and supervision, right? So that's a completely different line of business. But I think in in principle, parenting is about nurturing the growth of your child, right? In simple terms. And it means different things at different stages. I think that's the single most important thing, right? And it's quite difficult to define. Yeah, because each child is different, by the way.

Speaker 2 9:07

Yeah. Accept the child as they are, bring out what you c can from them, nurture their talents. Yeah.

Speaker 3 9:15

It's about nurturing also that curiosity and that learning. Yeah, providing the guidance also. Okay. But it's not a soft job, right? Parenting is not. No, it's not. Well, I don't need to tell you that, you know that.

Speaker 2 9:30

I mean, I knew it that uh I didn't know. That that's what made it so scary when I became a mom. That I knew that I had no c no idea. And even having good intentions, I can do a bad job. And that that was terrifying for me.

Speaker 3 9:46

Yeah. I think uh a lot of people don't think about it so much, but it's true, like to drive, you need a license, and even before you get married, the church uh has these sessions, or there are some sessions in most religions with with the with the priest or the religious person. But when it comes to parenting, it that doesn't really exist in the same way. But I think, Gabriella, the reason why we find it daunting is because we are delinked from our families. And in previous generations, you had many generations under one roof, which obviously has challenges, but it also has the advantage that you're actually being mentored by the older parents or and also women, of course, in the families, right? And this is, I think, what has made it so difficult for so many people because we're very small nucleus families. Remember the African proverb is it takes a village to raise a child, right? So in that moment when you think, I'm gonna throw this kid against the wall now, you can actually just hand it over to some auntie and then it's fine, right? And that just doesn't exist, and that has added a lot of pressure, I think, absolutely to this topic. Yeah. So it's a sociological topic in the end, yeah.

Speaker 2 11:01

Yeah, I'm convinced that uh this is one of the reasons why women don't have so many children anymore, that they were never supposed to do this job on their own. Yeah. And then then you throw in a career as well, and yeah, lack of support from the a wider family, it becomes really, really difficult.

Speaker 3 11:20

I I think the single mother is an incredible challenge. I really uh respect women who can do this on their own crazy.

Speaker 2 11:28

Yeah. So organizational psychology and leadership development became your uh area.

Self-Leadership As The Bottom Line

Speaker 2 11:35

Is there a top tip you would give to uh leaders something that every leader should know if there is such a thing?

Speaker 3 11:45

Yeah, I think the bottom line of leadership is is self-leadership. So I think that what I often say is leadership is not about your intention, it's about the impact you actually have. So it's less about the fact that you wanted to do something in a certain way, it's more about how it's received. And therefore, I think that most leaders who are effective are constantly learning and working on themselves. And that would be my top tip. Like everybody else, don't just tick the box and say, Great, I'm a leader. I I could even go further and say that, you know, question why anybody would want to be led by you, in a sense, right? And and understand that leadership is not always just about having a certain position in society, that there are different forms of leadership, and it's more about influence, influence and impact, as I already outlined. So that I think that would be the single message that I would want to put out there.

Speaker 2 12:57

So personal development.

Speaker 3 12:59

Absolutely. I think leadership has a lot to do with self-development. Perhaps 80% of it is that, and then the rest is developing certain skills and knowledge bases.

Speaker 2 13:12

I wonder if they teach this in business school.

Speaker 3 13:15

I don't know. I can't say how it's taught, but I do believe that there is more and more emphasis on this topic. I know that for myself, when I work with leaders, I spend a lot of time on their own leadership assumptions, their understanding of these or unveiling these for them to understand that this is why they have the impact they have, without judgment, good or bad, right? But if I assume something like I always need to be right as a leader, or or eventually I need to influence everybody to do it my way, then it brings certain outcomes, right? If that's the way you see leadership, then that's why you get those outcomes. And it's extremely important to work on those assumptions, or at least to be aware of them. Because you you cannot change your outcome if you don't understand your assumptions. And it's I think not maybe relevant, let me let me just say it that way, whether business schools are teaching this or not, because it's something that is an ongoing learning anyway, you know, and uh I think the seed maybe needs to be planted in business schools, but I don't think that they can take the whole challenge of teaching this.

Speaker 2 14:38

I think personal development should be made a part of the curriculum in already in high schools. I think everybody, regardless of what career they choose, everybody could benefit from such uh topics and such knowledge.

Speaker 3 14:53

Yeah, I agree with you. Uh I also think though that sometimes it's not only about the theory of it and trying out some exercises, but actually just going into life and living life and being able to say, uh, I've made a mistake, or uh reflecting and saying I should do this differently, or in the action, right? I sometimes miss people being able to apologize or appreciating another point of view. So I I sometimes find the classroom is not the only place where the learning has to take place. There it also really needs to take place in daily interactions, and this is sometimes what I miss. I mean, there's a D-link, you know. I go into the classroom and I learn about myself and I do a bunch of tests, and I, you know, uh but the real the reality is how I go into life and how I treat the person on the street, the seller in the shop, you know, and my staff or my team or my peers, right? That is actually what is going to be the real learning.

Speaker 2 15:57

Yes.

Speaker 3 15:58

Yeah.

Speaker 2 15:59

And parents have a lot of control over that. I mean, it's basically the parents' job to teach this to the children, but uh I don't think it happens in every family. I think very like many, many people kind of outsource raising the kids to the schools because they're busy, because they have to work, you know, we need to pay the bills and and things like that, and there's no energy at the end of the day to uh to even think about these topics. At least I see this uh all the time now. My son is high school age. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 16:34

Yeah, I mean I think schools definitely play a role. I think a lot of the teachers are in the same spot as the parents, though. I think I'm I'm feeling like there is a lot of pressure in the schools. I'm not exactly sure.

Speaker 2 16:46

Oh, yeah. I I I don't think they can take this on. Yeah, and they're not supposed to take it on at all.

Speaker 3 16:53

Um, I think it's a shared thing. So it brings us back to what we were talking about earlier on, where I think it takes a village to bring up a child. So I think there's a shared responsibility. There's also a shared responsibility in society itself. Yes. So I can tell you a a little bit about how I mean this in practical terms.

Collective Responsibility In Daily Life

Speaker 3 17:15

So I live on a street that is a pedestrian zone, and at the bottom of the street there is a a youth hostel. And sometimes on the warm nights, not these days because it's hot and not warm, the the students sit outside on the on the street and they in the night and they're talking and having fun, and which is perfectly fine, right? But when they get very loud, I sometimes go downstairs and I say to them, guys, you know, you're really loud, and this is a very narrow street, and I can hear you very well at the other end of the street. And I do it because there, I have different options, right? I can I could ignore it, which is difficult if it's very loud. I could call the police, which is probably what a lot of people would do. I could open the window and scream at them, which is not a good option, right? But I find it's also important for me as a member of society to raise awareness with those kids that they're not there on their own. And I'm fully convinced, which is like 99% of the time, that they are unaware of how low how loud they are, right? Because they're having a good time. We've all been kids, we've all been hanging out, and we all know what that is. And they immediately get silent and they apologize. It's really interesting to observe. I've only ever had one experience where they kind of got cheeky with me, but I I manage that by you know being a little bit cheeky back. But it's really interesting to see that in 99.5% of all cases, they're very apologetic and they get quiet very quickly. And this is what I mean. So I think that it's kind of everybody's business, but unfortunately, I find in Europe that kind of setup doesn't exist. I see it in Asia much more because it's a collective society. And if an older person says to a younger person, you know, you need to be born careful, then respectfully the younger person says, Yeah, um, you know, we, you know. But in Europe, this is gone completely. So you could also have the parents telling you off for telling the kids to be more quiet. I've seen that happen as well. Which I find very sad because they're adding pressure on themselves. And it's actually much better in a collective society, you identify that where the where the kids are rebelling against their own parents, they will accept somebody outside more easily who's not a teacher, who's not a, you know, just a casual person who kindly says, Hey, you know, come on, get your feet off the table, kind of thing, right?

Speaker 19:53

Yeah.

Speaker 3 19:54

Because they feel seen in the wrong way. They don't want to be seen that way by a stranger, right? So they will accept it. So again, you know, I think that the struggle that we are facing is something of a collapse of a society rather than uh about the role of parents versus school versus so on. It's actually everybody's role, but in this very individualistic world we have built up, it's people are feeling it's less is less and less their business, you know? But it is their business. I often tell people, uh, you know, those kids are the future of the society. Yes. That's why I feel responsible because when I'm old and I don't have my own kids, I mean these kids in the widest sense of the word are supposed to be taking care of me, right? And I would like them to be a certain uh aware in a certain way, right?

Speaker 20:48

Yeah.

Speaker 3 20:49

Yeah. Uh and um it's it's it's a it's a difficult place where we are, I find as a society at the moment, because we we're also very divisive, right, in the in the way we act. And yeah, let's see where we go with it, right?

Speaker 2 21:09

Let's see where we go with it. But I am hopeful that uh this will change for the better.

Volunteering With Students And Migrants

Speaker 3 21:14

So in my work, I don't work with young people, but I volunteer for an initiative that comes out of the Ministry for Integration in Austria, and it's about going into schools and talking to young people. Uh it's mainly focused on integrating people or students uh in schools with migrant backgrounds into societies. But I think it works both ways, right? It's about creating a place of tolerance for both sides. So we go into schools and we tell our stories and we encourage people to look at each other as human beings and to question sometimes the narratives that come through media and particularly social media, I think, challenges. It's very challenging. And it's maybe the element that didn't exist before, right? And that I think is also confusing a lot of young people. So as you say, and as your podcast is all about human stories, we we do exactly that. We go into schools regularly and we talk to young folks about ourselves and about the challenges we felt and how they can look at each other as peers and uh become catalysts for a better place of social cohesion in society. So I do some of that work as well next to my real job.

Speaker 2 22:42

That's wonderful. I think there's tremendous value in human stories, and I think especially kids can really relate to that. Absolutely, yeah.

What Truly Matters And Contentment

Speaker 2 22:58

What are the things that truly matter in life?

Speaker 3 23:02

I think for each individual that's probably something a little bit different. Also, I think it changes as you move through life and through life sphases. But the bottom line at the end of the day, uh I feel from my perspective, is that everybody looks for a certain sense of contentment. Some people call it happiness, but I think it's more about being content and satisfied with what you have and what you feel you're able to achieve. I think that's kind of the bottom line. And um not only what you are able to achieve, but you as a part of a larger entity, whatever that entity is, because we're not lonesome cowboys in our lives. That's not how it works, really. Although I think the ability to be on your own is a very important part of growing up. And I think it's not without reason that in all cultures, monks, learned people, people who are inspiring are often in isolation or in silence, right? Plays a big role in all cultures. So I think being able to be on your own is extremely important, but also understanding your role in a larger entity equally so and being able to impact that positively. Yeah, the bottom line is contentment, I think. To be able to say at the end of every day, yeah, it wasn't an easy day, but it was a good day as well. I I did my bit, you know. That's what it is. Yeah. To not only to say it, but also be able to feel it. If you can't say it, feel it, whatever it is to to go into bed with that smile on your face somehow.

Speaker 2 24:57

Yeah. It's not that easy to achieve every day, I think, but it's something we can strive for, for sure. Yeah.

Speaker 3 25:05

So I I think nobody said life was easy, right? I think that is that is about that's something I really have to say sometimes, also to myself, you know, like, hey, uh who said it was gonna be easy. But I think one of the main purposes in life, because there's so much talk about purpose and meaning and so on, is actually to achieve that goal, right? To have that inner peace every day. No matter how crappy that day really was, yeah.

Speaker 2 25:36

I love that. What are the most important lessons you have learned in life?

Refocusing Thoughts And Calming Feelings

Speaker 2 25:49

So that one.

Speaker 3 25:52

No, this this um this focus. It's actually focus, right? It's about uh two things I would say when you're having your crappiest moments and we all have them. Uh to be able to refocus your thoughts consciously, but also to take attention of the feelings you're having in that moment and to calm your feelings, right? And to understand that they are maybe coming from assumptions. So if you think of a situation that is making you feel very angry, to understand that you're angry, to tell yourself it's okay to be angry and to refocus it and say, okay, fine, but I'm not gonna hurt myself by being angry because something has happened, right? And also to realize that maybe it hasn't happened because of what you think has happened, like somebody's purposefully hurt you, but it could be a circumstance as well for that person. So yeah, does that answer your question? This is kind of my my answer, right? It's it's this constant learning, this constant conversation with self and trying to carry those learnings into the outside world in whichever format. How can people do that? I think people can do that in different ways. I again I always emphasize the everyday. So I think life is very much about everything you do. Like it's not just about your professional persona, or it's really about like how do I treat the tram driver, how how do I greet people, how do I listen to people. And obviously, we can't all be perfect. Sometimes we're rushed and we have other things going on, but it really is about how you live the everyday and the small things every day. That's what that's what I think it really is in the first place. And then in the second place, obviously I think everybody needs to choose uh a path where they feel they can make a contribution. So, you know, you have your podcasts as you as your amplifier, if you like, right? I like to have the classroom. It's one of the reasons I teach is I look different. I'm different, and I would like students to see that, right? And especially in Central Europe, it's a very, I am in a very unique position, and I think it's important that people also see that. So it's also my way of amplifying a different kind of a society and the discussions we have in the classroom, I think, I hope, are part of that as well. So I think people can choose their own pathway of making that difference, of carrying that message, right? There's a lot of volunteer work that can be done if you have time. But at the end of the day, if you're a parent, put a good kid into the world. That's a huge contribution, right? I think that's a huge contribution on its own already. Yeah, exactly. That's enough, right? I think everybody has something they can put out there, which is already a part of their life, right?

Speaker 29:10

Yeah.

Advice For Young People Today

Speaker 2 29:18

What advice would you give to the younger generation? Yeah.

Speaker 3 29:22

As I mentioned earlier in our prep uh meeting, Gabriella, we could give a lot of advice to a lot of young people. I'm not sure they'd be listening to any of it. Because I'm not sure I listened to very much of what I got in terms of advice. Um I think it's maybe a combination of all the things we've been talking about. Like be curious and be open. Listen to your inner self, but also understand that you might be wrong or there's still stuff you don't know, right? So don't get caught up in this idea that life is a linear path, right? And that it's all about achieving the one or the other thing. It's not gonna be that way. It's gonna be a ride, and you have to make decisions as you go along. And you will make some bad decisions, but you have to know that you can reverse them, right? So don't I think that my bet my advice would basically be don't, yeah, don't get caught up in a single idea and don't harm yourself. Like take care of yourself. That's sort of the basic thing, right? Don't do things you don't really want to do just because everybody else is doing them. Give it some thought. That's a lot of different things, right, to tell somebody. And sometimes it's a bit contradictory, but I would I think I would hesitate from giving like straight-on advice, right? But this is already great advice. I think it it really is more about taking care of yourself, like listening to what it is that is inside you. I kind of think when we were younger, a lot of us went on with, you know, carried on with things that perhaps other people were doing and we just wanted to be a part of the crowd. And that's okay. I think that's okay, and I think one should do this because you don't want to become an asocial weirdo, right? But um, know in your heart that there's something else as well, that you're doing this just for that, and you can step away if you're

Learning Self-Love Without Shame

Speaker 3 31:25

harming yourself.

Speaker 31:26

Yeah.

Speaker 3 31:27

So I think this amount of like self-love is something that also really needs to be learned, right? Self-care and self-love. This is, I think, what we then discover very late in our lives. Actually, we need to take care of ourselves, and if we don't, nobody else can do it for us. And we expect when we're younger, when when you're younger, you have this. If you're lucky and you have your parents, you kind of know you have a fallback. Unconsciously, you know you have a fallback, right? And as you get older and you lose your parents and or they they are more fragile, you start to realize, and you have to actually take care of yourself too. And um that's another thing that we don't really learn how to do, right?

Speaker 2 32:14

Yeah. That took me a very long time to learn.

Speaker 3 32:19

It was a very painful journey. Yeah. Self-love is one of the most difficult things. It should be the most natural, but it's one of the most difficult things. Also, because the messaging is sometimes like you're so egoistical, or uh, you know, stop being so antisocial, or there's a tension with the outside as well. But actually, the tension shouldn't be there. If it's a if it's a healthy self-care and self-love, there should be no tension, right?

Speaker 2 32:51

I think very few people have a very healthy self-care and self-love from like I certainly uh wasn't that person. Uh I really needed love from external sources all the way until I was in my 30s. Yeah.

Speaker 3 33:08

But most of us don't know who we really are. I mean, that's the end, that's the bottom line. And I think it's it's okay because actually, uh at the end of the day, I think that's what life is all about, discovering who you are.

Speaker 33:23

Yeah.

Speaker 3 33:23

And um, and it's okay. I that's why I find it difficult when people say uh I regret, and I know it's one of your questions as well, because there is nothing to regret at the end of the day. You know, life itself is about the journey. And I find it frightening when I meet teenagers who sound so uh, I don't know, so aware, you know. I find it frightening because they haven't had the life experience to actually back that up. They're doing it out of the classroom, which is what I mentioned before. I said, not really about the classroom. It's really about how you present it in your life. I mean, for example, one thing that amuses me the most is people walk around with their yoga mats and they're on trains and they're kind of, you know, inattentive, hitting their yoga mat on people and so on. And I think, but you just come out of a yoga lesson. Yoga is all about that awareness of your space, and you're actually so completely unaware the minute you leave the classroom, you know, um, and in the classroom you're all focused and singing ohm and all this stuff. That's not what yoga is about at all. So that for me, the classroom, it's not to knock the classroom. The classroom is a good place. I mean, I teach in a classroom too, right? So I'm not knocking it. But there the value is what you can take out of the classroom, right? So that goes for young people also very much. They need to go the path, you know. You cannot stop young people from making the mistakes they need to make, quote unquote, by, I don't know, trying to educate them in a certain way at a time when they cannot absorb it either, right? It's already very confusing being a teenager. It's confusing enough, right? I I also think that sometimes now they're overwhelmed with what's available to them online. Absolutely. And they then they think they know, which I find is is even more scary, right? Because then they're telling you, well, I know because I saw on YouTube and I heard this story, and I don't know. And then I'm like, but make your own story. You know, um, there's so much happening on the cognitive level also, and manipulation on an emotional level, I think people sometimes don't know what they feel also in a certain situation, right? The helplessness that they feel, they don't identify. And this I find is also a big new challenge coming in for young people.

Speaker 2 35:53

Yeah, what habit or daily routine has been the most helpful

Walking And Cooking As Reset Buttons

Speaker 2 36:05

to you?

Speaker 3 36:05

Aside from brushing my teeth in the morning, which I think is helpful, I have to say. I try and go for a walk every day. That's actually one of the habits I have. And even if it's um if I don't have enough time to make it a longer walk, which I actually enjoy, like getting on the bus and going to the woods for an hour, I at least try and go to a park or walk around the block uh for half an hour every day, at least. It kind of became a habit by surprise, if you like. I spend a lot of time at my desk reading and doing conceptual work, and then sometimes I feel a bit stuck, and so I think I got into the habit of just getting up, and I realized there are two things that help me. One is getting out and walking, because strangely enough, when I walk, my head empties. And then when I get back to my desk, it's anyway clear. I don't know why I was stuck in the first place. And the alternative to the walking is actually cooking lunch for myself.

Speaker 37:17

Okay.

Speaker 3 37:19

Which I find a very creative thing, and is actually something that um I once said this to somebody who actually laughed. She couldn't believe it. I said, it's one of the things I enjoy the most of being my own boss. Spent all these years in the corporate world where you had canteens that were loud and the food was kind of okay and uh having lunch, and now I really enjoy actually getting up from my desk and chopping vegetables and throwing it in and creating a lunch for myself that I can actually sit and eat. And most people think this is crazy. Why do you spend all this time cooking for yourself? But I love it. It's the other alternative to actually switching my mind off. And then I actually do sit and eat lunch without my phone, without anything. Like I sit at the dining room table and I eat my lunch, right? So they're two habits that are more or less daily, I would say, because obviously it depends where I am and what I'm doing. If I'm doing a full day uh workshop, it's not probably going to happen. But if the workshop is somewhere in town, I'll try and walk home at least. So um, yeah, those are two things.

Speaker 2 38:35

That's so nice, you know. My husband has a similar relationship with cooking. He for him it's the evening thing, and he said it it switches him off and relaxes him, and he got becomes totally absorbed. He's he's half Italian, of course, so that's uh that's like a cultural thing as well. I think that food is very important in our family. But he gets totally absorbed in it and he doesn't talk, he doesn't even put on music, and he he just chops that garlic and and stirs all that and he's in the flow.

Speaker 3 39:07

I totally relate to that. So I also don't need any music or anything, I don't need any distraction. I'm not a gourmet cook, by the way. I love to eat, but I like opening the fridge and deciding how I'm going to use whatever is there, right? So I'm not following recipes, I'm not, I'm just realizing, okay, this needs to be eaten. How am I gonna throw it all in and make something tasty of it? And um yeah, and it's it's it's a creative form, I think.

Speaker 2 39:41

Yes, it's very creative, yeah. Yeah. Oh, I loved it. You were the first person who mentioned this, and uh I love it that you did.

Hardship: Feel It Then Dissect It

Speaker 2 39:57

What is the best way to overcome difficulties or hardship?

Speaker 3 40:04

Knowing that they will pass. I think. Uh reminding yourself that they will pass. When you get older, it's maybe easier because then you can remind yourself that you've already been through so much and you'll also get through this one. That's I think a big advantage of being older, that you actually can stop yourself and say, Hey, I've been through much worse things than this, so I will get through this as well. Yeah, I I think sometimes also feel the pain. I think sometimes we try not to. And um, that's not very healthy. I think we also live in a world that is very quick about putting a band-aid on things. And we tend to be the type of friends who say, Oh, yeah, don't worry, it will be fine. And that's the way we console. But I think sometimes we just have to say our shit, you know. Sorry for the French, but it's just a really bad situation. Acknowledge that that's what it is. Because I think that's the only way you can deal with it. You have to embrace the fact that it's a really bad situation and you're not happy with it. And then let it let it rest, right? Because it will go away. Every day is a new day in that sense, right? Um, and then when that pain moment is accepted, uh you can start to, I think, disintegrate the problem. This is one of the best things to do, right? To pull it apart and to understand, to understand it more deeply. Why has it occurred, what needs to happen next, what are the priorities, and so on. Because I think sometimes we feel overwhelmed.

Speaker 41:50

Yeah.

Speaker 3 41:51

And um it's fine to feel overwhelmed, but it's usually a constellation of different things that make us feel that way. And then to try and pick it apart and decide what is it I can control and what is it I cannot control is important. Yes. And then I think it's equally important to seek help. There are enough situations where you really should look for help. There are lots of things you cannot manage on your own and you shouldn't manage on your own.

Speaker 2 42:20

I'm glad you said that.

Speaker 3 42:21

Yeah. It's also important. Um not always easy to find the right kind of help, I have to say, but but it is important to reach out. It's important to tell people something's wrong. Yeah. Sometimes just telling somebody or formulating it will help sort out the actual issue, right?

unknown 42:42

Yeah.

Speaker 3 42:42

So I think difficult situations, the main point is to diffuse the idea that it's overwhelming and to diffuse the idea that you there's nothing you can do about it. Those are the two important parts. Yeah.

Gratitude And The Simple Good Life

Speaker 2 43:01

What should we focus on if we want a happy life? A good life.

Speaker 3 43:06

Today I scream. Okay. Yeah. Um what should we focus on? I think uh when you are content, everybody around you will sense that and and that will be your contribution to a better world. But I think focusing on yourself being content means a happy life. Understanding what it is you can influence and cannot influence. The courage to go forward and be the person you are in that vein. That's what makes a happy life, right? To be able to say at the end of the day it was a good day, despite the fact that maybe nothing went your way because. You had food on your table and you have a roof over your head, is a happy life. Being able to genuinely say that, I think, at the end of the day, or gratitude, I think is the word that is often used, right? Is I think the primary essence of a happy life. And knowing that you still have so much to learn and that that is going to be interesting and fun. And uh tomorrow's a new day full of more adventure, whatever that adventure is going to be. Those are the elements of it, really. I mean I don't think it's very complicated, actually. Yeah, I think we make it complicated. I I really don't. I don't think life is very complicated at all. I think it's surprisingly simple. But yeah, you said we we make it complicated. We add so many bits to it, and lots of the bits are expectations and what we think we need more of and what we think we need less of, and how perfect everything should be. But life is not perfect, it's messy. And that's the fun part of the it's messy. It's not meant to be perfect. There's no perfection in nature either, but it all makes sense. It all makes sense, even though it's not perfect. So I think that's that's really what it takes to be happy, is to understand that for yourself and to live your everyday within that framework, you know. It's not to say that horrible things are not going to happen, but it's always your choice on how you decide to react to it, right? You and I know that for myself I tend to distance myself from things rather than to offer explanations, because I I feel that if the other person wants to know, they'll ask me. And most times it's interesting they don't ask me. Right? And I and I could tell them, and I don't want to spend my time explaining myself if it's not important, you know?

Speaker 46:02

Yeah.

Speaker 3 46:02

Uh, but then I also don't have to spend my time in this arena. Like I, like everybody else in my life, has experienced all of the the drawbacks of jealousy and uh envy and I mean we we experience these things in our life, so it's not to say that it doesn't happen, right? It happened. But at the end, you it's your choice how you're going to allow it to influence what you do next. So that's why I often say just it's about just accepting it the way it is, understanding your own reaction to it, which is not going to be a pleasant one, obviously, and then moving on.

Regret, Loss And Moving Forward

Speaker 2 46:50

Looking back on your life, is there anything you regret or anything that you would do differently if you had the chance?

Speaker 3 46:58

Well, I I always find the question of regret a very difficult one because I find you shouldn't really have regrets. Regret is a very strong, it's very, very negative, I find, and quite a strong word. There are things I regret. For example, I regret that my sister passed away so early in her life and in my life because she was such a strong supporter for me. So she really had my back. She's one of the few people that I felt ever had my back. But it's there's nothing I can do about it, right? I mean, that's beyond my influence. What I it took me a long time to actually get over it, and I didn't even realize it was taking that long. But yeah, I regret that. I regret that she left my life so early. And um the other things were could you have done it differently? Well, I hope that most of us take decisions in the best way we can in that moment, right? And then to contemplate and think, you know, I oh, I should have done it differently. Of course, there are many things where I think, oh, I could have done that differently. It took me so long to understand certain things, you know. But maybe I just needed that time, right? I also believe in a way, and this of course is everybody's own belief, but there is a path that is for you and it's karma in a certain way. And there's a path you tread. There's a reason why things happen the way they happen. And of course, you can design it in through your decisions, but you can't go back on it. There's no going back. So the only thing you can do is take that lesson learned and move forward with it. Therefore, regret for me is a difficult one because I don't feel regret. And in those situations where something has not gone right, I still have a potential to go back and apologize or to mend or whatever. It's still there, right? The potential is still there to pick up the phone. So I should do it. I should not regret, I should do it, right? So I find a word a little bit difficult in in that context, right? The things I regret are not, uh, they are beyond my control um in that sense. Like I cannot bring my sister back. I remember her every day, by the way, right? I still like talk to her sometimes, so that I've amended. But like I say, of course I look back on things and I think I could have done it differently. But unless I use it as a lesson moving forward, it doesn't have any value. Could have, should have, would have, whatever. I I think getting lost in that, it it just doesn't make much sense, you know, unless you you use it uh for going forward. And I, of course, I believe in in rebirth, so I don't really believe that this is the last life in that sense and that I have this limited time and so on. But I'm not sure we will remember those lessons the next time. I hope that those lessons will be remembered for the next time round. But let's see, Gabriella. We can have another podcast then.

Speaker 2 50:12

I would love that. I mean, we're supposed to evolve, right, with every new lifetime. So I'm sure that uh but uh yeah, who knows?

Speaker 3 50:23

I mean, nobody knows actually for sure, right? Whether there is a second chance and whether you actually remember the stuff. But I mean, seriously, most people say that you determine a little bit that pathway in this life, right?

Speaker 2 50:36

So Yeah, I believe in that as well.

Speaker 3 50:40

Yeah, so regret I find is is a very strong and very difficult word. Yeah, and of course there are regrets, but I don't find it weighs down on me in that way. Yeah. I sometimes say, yeah, you should have been a little bit more willing to take certain decisions, maybe a little bit more courageous to take those when you were younger. But I also know I even understand it more deeply now, how complex my world was at that time, right? So I'm very forgiving to myself that I wasn't wasn't able to. I didn't have the courage, right?

Speaker 2 51:16

Yeah. I think this is a great uh thing you just said, to be forgiving to oneself. I think this is a very important lesson for and everyone.

Speaker 3 51:26

Yeah, I think that's why regret is not it's not the most constructive way. I I think it's it's good to recognize the situations, rectify if you can, like if you can still make that phone call, go ahead and make the phone call, you know, if you really feel that way about it. Because often then people are like, yeah, I I regret, but then they don't move in this direction. And I'm like, well, then maybe you don't regret enough, you know. I don't know, right? But then, you know, simply to say, look, I made the best decision I could in that circumstance, and and it's fine, you know, and let it be. And come have peace with it, right?

Speaker 2 52:06

I love that.

Final Thoughts And Goodbye

Speaker 2 52:08

Leha, thank you very much. Thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Gabriella.

Speaker 3 52:18

Thank you for moderating this conversation and inviting me to be a part of your sexy panel. I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 52:32

Thank you for listening. This was the best pressure. Take what resonates, leave what resonates. And remember, that is pressure. Make the most of it. Until next time.