SUSIE POLNASZEK on Inquiring Into Success in the Non-Profit World

What if the road to pay equity and fair compensation in the nonprofit sector could be navigated more smoothly? That's exactly what we're aiming to explore in this episode of The Hearth. 

I'm joined by Susie Polnaszek, director of the Center for Nonprofit Excellence in Monterey County, to shine a light on the complexities of compensation and debunk the inherent assumptions in the nonprofit sector. Together, we trace the evolution of the sector and discuss the systemic inequities that can creep up.

We know nonprofits face a host of challenges, particularly regarding funding and volunteer retention. In our conversation, we take on these hurdles, dissecting how factors like funding restrictions, cost of living, and board decisions can leave a mark on compensation. Throw in a global pandemic, and the challenges only intensify - we discuss how COVID-19 has shifted volunteer priorities and what this could mean for nonprofits heavily reliant on their time and contributions.

As we navigate the pandemic and beyond, we're redefining what volunteer engagement means for success. We believe understanding volunteers' experiences and tapping into community resources are key to better engagement and management. We also recognize the fulfilling roles that volunteering plays in personal purpose and community building. Further, we dive into pay equity, sharing strategies to standardize pay and combat inequities. 

Join me and Susie in our conversation, and we hope you enjoy.

If something you heard today brought a smile to your face or a spark to your heart, and you’d like to connect with me, here are a few ways you can do that.

One is my newsletter, it’s where I put most of my time and energy when I’m not working with clients or on this podcast. Sorry social media! It’s a mix of real life stories, tips and tricks and of course updates on what’s happening with the podcast. Whenever something is going on with me or in my business, it always comes out there first.

Another resource that I have for you is my Guide to Doing Work Differently. The guide takes you through four inquiries into how you can build a more sustainable and equitable work environment for yourself and your team. It's a great place to start.

Last, if you’ve got a burning question, a comment, or a situation you’d like my eyes on, you can email me at candice@fortressandflourish.com.


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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

The hearth is for you if you're a business leader with a team. Here we have conversations about how to keep growing. When you feel you've reached your capacity, when what you're doing is working but you're starting to see the cracks, when there's a gap between where you're at now and where you want to be, here we find ways to transition through the struggle of survival toward creating a thriving business that supports you and your team as whole humans. Your host is me, candice Elliott. I'm a business strategist and mentor who specializes in working with business owners who are going through periods of growth. Especially when you're adding more people to your team, the practices and systems that worked when your team was smaller just don't seem to fit anymore, and when you're caught in stress and reaction, it's tough to reimagine the way that you created your world of work, both your own personal one and the one that you created for others. I help people align their values and business practices to build practical, sustainable, thriving work ecosystems and no, this isn't just some work utopia talk. To do this, I bring forward my decade-long professional background in human resources and organizational development, working with growing businesses across many sectors, and my decades-long search for meaning and wholeness, which includes researching the history of work and how it came to be what it is today, practicing a trauma-informed approach to business and integrating work, life and spirituality into a meaningful whole.

Speaker 1: 2:17

Let's take this journey together. Welcome back to the hearth-brave souls. I'm so happy that you're here joining me today. I'm sharing with you a conversation that I had with Susie, who is the director of the Center for Nonprofit Excellence in Monterey County at the Monterey County Community Foundation. Susie and I have had the opportunity to work together on a couple of workshops and then through supporting a few different nonprofits in their human resources needs, and this conversation that we had today is really inquiring into what success looks like in the nonprofit world and some of the dynamics that we kind of have in that space that maybe are more challenging to work with. So here is our conversation, susie. Thank you so much for joining me today. I've been really looking forward to our conversation.

Speaker 2: 3:32

Thanks so much for this invitation. I'm really looking forward to it too.

Speaker 1: 3:35

Yeah, you're welcome, so we'll just dive right in here. I'm wondering this is coming up a lot in a lot of different nonprofits that I've been working with but the idea that in the nonprofit world, people are supposed to be very giving of their time and self-sacrificing and that they shouldn't be paid as much as other work because they've chosen to do this good thing, and I feel like there are a lot of inequities that play into this and I'm curious about your thoughts on this issue.

Speaker 2: 4:22

Yeah, there's a lot in there. I thought one way to think about this is to just really recognize that as a sector, nonprofits are uniquely driven by mission and benefit to the community and our ability to tap into that force, that force for good, the level of commitment and energy that groups can tap into to accomplish things. I mean it's unique and so I think it's worth just saying that first off. But I think when we take a look at the values that guide our work, it also I don't think we have to choose between that and valuing people and their expertise and their effort and their work through compensation. I don't think it's an either. Or I do know that the history of the sector is sort of we kind of have evolved and we sort of swing back and forth between this charity model and then maybe on the other end of the spectrum, more of informed by business best practices or learning from that sector, and so all along we've seen sort of different takes on that. But you're right, I think a lot of what the assumptions are there do have to do with lots of types of inequity.

Speaker 2: 6:07

I think another piece too that that structural, is that in the nonprofit sector there are funding restrictions and limitations on how funds are used. That can put constraints, maybe not only at, like, a CEO level, but for pay within organizations. Sometimes it's tied up in contracts and how contracts are structured and there's caps, or maybe there's limitations by funders, and so there's a lot of things that go into creating these limitations. And then I think we can't also ignore the fact that our cost of living, in our area too, is a limiting factor on being able to engage a diverse talent and being able to have a sustainable experience of work. So there's just so many dynamics there.

Speaker 1: 7:13

I've been working with a couple organizations who receive a big influx of grant funding, but it can only be used for certain work and positions, and so then, how do you fairly and equitably distribute those funds among the team that you already have and then also bring in people to help support bigger projects that happen, and I think, especially because the cost of living here is so high, it's something that really affects everybody across the board.

Speaker 2: 7:47

Yes, Well, and I think in, too, the nonprofit board of directors, sort of the team of folks that are helping to govern the direction of the organization and sustainability growth. They have a really important role here. A role to play here, I think, in being aware of the different dynamics that are at play in the levels of compensation and pay in their own organizations. But also, I think they can really do a lot to advocate for fundraising, for building that capacity over time to be able to do more in terms of fairly compensating. So here's another challenge. Creating a diverse set of perspectives on boards is really important, because I think that helps to drive to urgency and action around issues like this, when people can bring those important perspectives and say, hey, we're really going to commit, we're going to raise the funds needed to help us expand our capacity to have more of a living wage, if you will, or a more equitable approach to our pay.

Speaker 1: 9:14

Yeah, I'm so glad that you bring up the board of directors because it's when you have a more diverse group on the board of directors I think there can be really nuanced conversations about what's going on with pay, because you know the budget comes around once a year and you look at the budget and you want to approve it as a board, and sometimes it's just rubber stamping and then other times it is really looking at what the numbers are, not just is it a balanced budget, but how is?

Speaker 1: 9:46

How are the funds being distributed and is that in alignment with the values of the organization and the mission? And I find that sometimes the way that the pay works isn't actually aligned with the values. Like an organization who you know hires a demographic, for instance, that they are supporting, like I don't know, maybe it's veterans, or who you know, a group like that but doesn't pay a living wage to the people who work for them. There's this disconnect there and it almost is like the problem is so big, like what do we do about that? So we just keep doing what we're doing? Yeah, so it's definitely a challenging space, but the board of directors is such a wonderful resource that a nonprofit has that is not necessarily the same in a for-profit company.

Speaker 2: 10:40

Well, I appreciate what you said about this problem is so big and how do we take steps? And I've appreciated in your work you know I understand that you work with groups to kind of break things down into those steps like what are one or two things we could do to maybe it's not something we can fix in this budget cycle but you know building a pathway and so I think that is oftentimes what you know maybe can help give a boost is like working with trusted partners who can kind of help you think about this over time and then bringing close into closer alignment and that commitment I think is a big first step.

Speaker 1: 11:22

Yeah, and a board can see strategically to that five-year kind of mark, whereas you know it can be more difficult if you're in the day-to-day of everything to be able to hold that long-term kind of vision. So this is one of those kinds of unsustainable types of practices that come up in nonprofits and I'm wondering if there are any other ones that you see commonly. I get this one a lot because it's so related to HR and but I'm wondering if there are others that come up and what people can do about those ones.

Speaker 2: 12:04

Well, you know, I had one thought about this, this one and it isn't so much, maybe, a business practice, but a dynamic and unique to nonprofits and and it's something that's coming up, I think, a lot for people as they recalibrate from from the pandemic but is the reliance and resource of volunteers within our sector. And I was remembering there's a blog post by the California Association of Nonprofits, cal Nonprofits, and they're always really good at, you know, sort of putting things in a catchy way. But they said, you know, volunteers are like the bees in the nonprofit sector, so like when you see this trouble with honey bees is like a sign, you know, of distress in the system. And so I think it's not a new trend that volunteer engagement and retention is, you know, shifting, is changing it's, it's it's a challenge for for nonprofits to sustain their volunteer programs. But I think, since the pandemic, what a lot of people have shared with me is that volunteers are shifting their priorities and they've done their own soul searching and you know they may realize like now is the time for me to do this other big thing and or take, take this new direction, or take a risk, go go pursue this other interest, and so it may be taking them away from a commitment that they've had over many years with an organization and their work. And so because nonprofits do depend many of them depend on the contributions of of the time of volunteers for their program success.

Speaker 2: 14:04

In many cases it does put a strain and I think I think what also we're seeing is that, just in terms of the kinds of volunteer opportunities people are looking for, they may not, they may not be as comfortable signing up for something long term or even in person.

Speaker 2: 14:25

You know, I think people are looking for more discrete opportunities to give back of their time and and so it's an opportunity maybe for nonprofits to to flex a little bit with what where the volunteer interest is now, and I worked with a group recently that depends very heavily on volunteers for their work and they instituted a process of a feedback loop, which they'd had some feedback processes in place before, but they really invested time and listening to their long-term volunteers to really hear what their experience was, and it was a great learning because they were able to see some pain points that were coming up that they really didn't have as much awareness of before, and so through this process they were able to kind of like reduce some of that friction for the volunteer experience and I think then just strengthen understanding, strengthen the commitment of the volunteers.

Speaker 2: 15:38

So you know, taking the time for rebuilding I think is where a lot of people are right now. There's some great community resources out there for nonprofits. I'm thinking of like the Volunteer Center in Santa Cruz County and then in Monterey County we have community builders for Monterey County and there's sort of hubs, if you will, for both people seeking opportunities to volunteer but also for the nonprofits to engage and then also some help managing those, those volunteers. So I think it's maybe not an unstable business practice, but it's something on the horizon that I think a lot of folks are grappling with right now. And how do we get people to come back to our work.

Speaker 1: 16:26

Yeah, it's making me think of this. You know, epidemic of isolation and loneliness that's happening and how being a volunteer in a nonprofit organization helps you to interact with your community and build community and get to know people. When I first moved to Santa Cruz I think it was 12 years ago now I volunteered at the Walnut Avenue Women's Center, which helps with domestic violence and all these different kinds of issues, and just worked at the front desk and met people that I know to this day and it was a really wonderful way to spend, you know, a couple of mornings a week, getting to know the community and being able to help in a really practical way. And it's, I think. You know, sometimes when you're younger and you're thinking of volunteer things, you're thinking about your future career or something like that. But I think, as a young person, just spending time in any kind of organization doing something that you love is great, and then you get to learn how organizations work and how to give back.

Speaker 2: 17:36

Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that. First of all, that's a great organization and great story that you shared, and something that our sector can really help people connect to is purpose, you know, and what that brings to our experience in life is something really powerful. And I can very much relate to what you said about isolation and really kind of finding my way back to community, and so I think you're right to mention that in the context of you know how volunteers have shifted and for different people. You know some people probably were like, as soon as they could, they were like right back out there and involved and, just, you know, no time wasted. But I think for others and I include myself, it's process getting comfortable, being just back and reconnected.

Speaker 1: 18:39

Yeah, for me too, and I happen to have a baby in the pandemic, so even more. It just kind of removed me from groups that I was spending a lot of time with right, as it happened. And then, yeah, it's just, it's different, but I so you bring up purpose and I'm wondering how we can redefine what it means to be successful within the context of our nonprofit work and what ideas you have about that.

Speaker 2: 19:18

Great question and, gosh, there's so many different ways into that question. I think, as I reflected about it, I was thinking in terms of kind of like career success or personal success, and but I think there's also ways to kind of take it as an organization. Why, too? But connecting back to the pandemic again, I think you know it was such a great lesson in how interconnected we are, just by our very nature we're. You know my wellbeing is connected to others. You know your wellbeing, and I think there's something in having that understanding brought to light so strongly is, like you know, in some ways, like our success is also interconnected to other success, and so that's the piece that I think is standing out for me on this.

Speaker 2: 20:25

And you know, I think it's been easy to overlook or maybe there's so many ways that it's invisible how that interconnection affects us. And sometimes, you know, it's easy to overlook, like how different support systems or different people have contributed to our success and in other ways, systems have been barriers to success that we have maybe not always been as consciously aware of. And so I feel like now, in this question about redefining it, I think it's partly taking the time to really acknowledge, like, what are those invisible systems you know that maybe are contributing to being able to move ahead or maybe holding folks back. And I'm thinking too, just about that interconnectedness, like thinking about you know, our organization or community foundation and we have scholarship funds and you know, a lot of times these scholarships will go to folks who are first generation college going students and you know, in stories they share, you really see how interconnected the success of this older sibling is to younger siblings, educational goals and success, and even economically and moving forward as a family.

Speaker 2: 22:05

And so I think, you know, just taking stock of how we are, we may hear these stories about like well, I graduated this degree and I was so successful and I moved up because I did XYZ thing in my career. And I think we just have an opportunity to be more intentional about seeing those different dynamics at play and then also have an opportunity to see like, hey, you know, as leaders, a side of success or a marker of success might be like how many other leaders did you help grow? How did you help cultivate other success, you know, or the success of your team or other talent, things like that. So that's kind of what comes to mind for me.

Speaker 1: 23:02

Yeah, it really sounds like community building, creating partnerships and supporting the aspirations and dreams of others, and being able to find the resources to distribute fairly, you know, to people who need them.

Speaker 2: 23:23

I think, too, I was really influenced by this book. It's called Equity how to Design Organizations when Everyone Thrives, and she writes about. The author writes about kind of key leadership practices for this just generating organizations like this, and one she calls systems site. So it kind of gets at that idea of like making systems more visible and being able to talk about them in your story of success and including things that you know hold you back or that or that are inherently kind of like boosting boosting you forward or giving you support. So it's definitely something that got me, got me thinking in this direction.

Speaker 1: 24:10

Yeah, because so many of our systems are invisible or they're visible to a small group but not really talked about outside of that.

Speaker 2: 24:20

Yeah, and I think, unless we start to see them or talk about them, like it's harder to dismantle them or, you know, or strengthen other systems that are working.

Speaker 1: 24:32

What are some of the ways at the Center for Nonprofit Excellence that you are looking like, that you guys are looking at your systems?

Speaker 2: 24:42

Yeah, well, I think you know this kind of relates back to your other question about sustainable practices, because I think a shift that I've noticed, just as we're coming back from the pandemic, is there was a time when we were really kind of spreading ourselves in terms of the types of programming we were offering and, and with good intention. You know, we had a lot of material we wanted to share and people we were trying to reach. But I think having the opportunity to pause and be a little more intentional about the impact that we're trying to make and being able to I don't know, maybe just refine our focus a little bit, has been important, because I think it does. It does also get to this issue of sustainability and you know, I think it's the practice of, like wanting to say yes to every single opportunity and and also knowing that that can lead to not just burnout, but it can. It can just spread us really thin and that there's also value and we can get, we can gain energy by by focusing on, you know, one or two core things and and allowing those to grow and evolve, and and then so I think I would say our practices are are just trying to be very intentional and mindful and and do a lot of listening and create those feedback loops, I guess in our work, and it's also been a great opportunity to just reconnect and create spaces for other nonprofits to connect with one another.

Speaker 2: 26:29

You know we talked about the isolation and I think you know nonprofits it's hard work and there's a lot, there's a lot of people are dealing with just in the work itself.

Speaker 2: 26:39

And so our Center for nonprofits, excellence, you know we really are trying to nurture those opportunities for folks to connect with one another and, you know, just a place where they can just be themselves, they can feel, thank you, yeah, really a chance to, you know, maybe put aside the need to have to have all the answers and be the expert and be able to kind of solve every problem that comes up, you know, as a leader or whatever, but to kind of put that on hold for a sec and for a few hours with their peers and to kind of have a chance to learn. And it's okay that we were just learning together, you know, and supporting and sharing one another, so with one another. That's just what we've been trying to focus on, because we realize, like for a lot of folks right now it's kind of. It's sort of like the basic needs, what they're asking for and really wanting.

Speaker 1: 27:48

Yeah, it makes me think about when the pandemic first happened. Right, it was like triage for like a year, trying to figure out all the new things that were happening, but I think that so many of us did learn together. There were so many things to learn at the same time, and so there are kind of these like systems and people are interested in learning together. And I was so interested by the workshop that you did on mental, mental health and wellness and have been going very deep down that that research there's. So there's so much out there that there are studies that have been done at the academic level that are related to you know how like business structures that can be created that can decrease people's stress and have a positive effect on their their well-being and their family life.

Speaker 1: 28:48

And one of those studies was done with the gap, with all these gap employees, and what they did was they just standardized to their schedules. So instead of having schedules that were changing every single week and you could kind of be called in at any time, they started having regular schedules and I think it was like a, you know, at least a 48 hour window of notice if you were going to be called in to work and it increased sales by like 5%. And then they did you know, stress and different kinds of tests and it helped people's blood pressure to go down and all of these really interesting benefits. And I think in shift work people don't really think about what an impact a changing schedule has like, especially on parents. That's just one of them, there's so many.

Speaker 2: 29:44

Yeah, well, it kind of goes back to that, that piece about interconnection, and we're not, you know, our mind, body, well-being it's. We're not different, different pieces, we're like we're whole, you know. And so having having a broader, more expansive understanding or approach, even in the workplace, I think, has some real implications on how we can sustain ourselves and our work.

Speaker 1: 30:15

We were talking earlier about. You know budgeting and finance and pay, but also, I think if the leadership is so far removed from the people who are working, it becomes easier to make decisions where you don't really understand the implications of them. Like, we have all these workers, we need to have the store filled, or you know, we need people to be working all these different hours and so they just have to be able to figure out how to come in when we need them and to see the person as this commodity basically. But really, I think if you have more of a connection between people who are making these kinds of decisions and then the reality of what it is like to live within those decisions, that helps to create fairer systems. Well said so, are there any kind of trends that you have been seeing recently that we haven't talked about that are specifically related to leadership, development and collaboration?

Speaker 2: 31:20

Well, I think we did touch on it briefly, but really just like this thirst for connection with one another by leaders, I think you know that sense of maybe just isolation, having folks that they can turn to to talk about the challenges that they have or even just celebrate with one another.

Speaker 2: 31:43

I think a trend might be that in the past, you know, in the past and I don't want to downplay the importance of places where you can learn important management practices and good, solid information and input for how we do our work well, but I think in the past, training opportunities or leadership development, there was an emphasis on on the content, on the presentation of information, kind of downloading of information, and I think where we see leadership development really having more confidence in centering that interpersonal experience, the network building and really creating I don't want to use the word like safe spaces, but really because there's so many different dynamics, you know, in any field.

Speaker 2: 32:39

But in nonprofits there's like funding, environment and landscape and is there competition? Is there, how do we position ourselves, you know, with different organizations and so like trying to really nurture an environment where people can be in relationship and build trust and really have that as kind of a starting point. So I don't know if I hope it's not a trend. I have it as a development and helping these be more effective and stronger, but definitely I think just seeing more and more acknowledgement of the value of that in developing leaders for our communities.

Speaker 1: 33:23

And helping too with the filtering of what actually belongs in this organization versus. You know, maybe this project is amazing, but it actually there's another organization that would fit better, and so it's not like the work doesn't get done, it's just spread out across everybody's different expertise.

Speaker 2: 33:43

And hard to have those relationships during COVID. You know, across organizations and as you know very well, so much churn and transition of staffing and positions and so just really rebuilding a lot of that, and executive directors too. So many, yeah, yeah, so many. So just an opportunity to rebuild awareness of the great work that's happening down the street or, you know, across the way, for even for those potential partnerships or opportunities to align.

Speaker 1: 34:22

Yeah, I've always noticed when I go to a presentation, I always appreciate if the presenter gives some time for me to meet the people around me, because I'm not necessarily the person who's going to go to a thing and then really get into deep conversations, because I am kind of introverted. But if it's a part of the thing and it's like you know, get into a group of three and share what you do and kind of connect with each other, yeah, it's just wonderful and I know that's always a part of the workshops that you do. There's some kind of breakout sessions where we get to talk to each other.

Speaker 2: 34:58

Yeah, we definitely aim to have that, have that opportunity for folks.

Speaker 1: 35:05

Well, if folks are listening and they want to connect with you or with the Center for Nonprofit Excellence, what is the best way for them to do that?

Speaker 2: 35:16

A great way is to visit the Community Foundation for Monterey County's website and that's at cfmcoorg forward slash, cne. That would be the best way, and we do have our Leadership Institute for 2024, will be doing recruitment for participants this fall, and I also have a book discussion series coming up that I'll be facilitating on that equity book that I mentioned and that's open to all nonprofits in our community, and great way to just dig into that topic a little further as well as get to meet some of the peers Is there anything that you wanted to talk about that we didn't get the chance to yet.

Speaker 2: 36:04

I was curious just to hear about. You know a lot of the work I see you doing around pay, equity living wage, helping organizations make shifts. Do you have any like advice for someone who's just kind of starting to think about that process? We talked a little bit about boards and the role they play but I don't know if do you have any just words of wisdom for you know, taking it from kind of these aspirations and then helping folks get started.

Speaker 1: 36:43

Yeah, I actually just helped someone with this, so I'm like all about it. So what we did? All the information can seem kind of squirrely, especially if you're dealing with grant funding and allocating, and it can get sort of like tied into that whole process and sometimes there's independent contractors and employees and all these different things. So what we started by doing was just listing all the employees names and their job titles. And the job titles might be weird or not exactly what they're supposed to be, but just you want to start with what you have.

Speaker 2: 37:24

Kind of an inventory of what's there.

Speaker 1: 37:27

Yeah, so their names, their job titles, if they're paid hourly or salary, the amount that they're paid, and then what kinds of benefits they're getting if there are benefits in the organization. And the first thing is to just try to standardize across the different categories of employees that you have. So when I talk about categories of employees, one of the types of categories is whether they're paid hourly or paid salary, and so it could be, for example, with benefits, that hourly employees get certain kinds of benefits and salaried employees get other kinds of benefits, and that's a pretty pretty, a more you know, simple kind of standardization to try to figure out is just what are our benefits? Who gets what, making it the same for everybody. Who makes these different categories?

Speaker 1: 38:31

And then when you're starting to look at pay to see what kinds of levels of responsibility there are in the organization so there's probably an executive director or maybe it's an operations director, there's probably some kind of administrative staff, and then there's some kind of program staff, and then within administrative and program staff you might have some managers and then you might have some other positions that we'll just call frontline positions, and so you can compare the pay of the managers with each other and you're looking for that pay to be equitable, and when you're trying to figure out what is equitable, you can use the fair pay for Northern California nonprofits as a great resource for that. We have talked about that before. I think most community foundations in California so do have that. So if you're somewhere else in the state you should be able to access it too, and there's a different one for Northern California and Southern California. And then there's also, you know, because organizations have to start publishing their pay rates. In California now you can find pretty good information about pay on Indeed or just different websites. I know a lot of nonprofit organizations have some crossover with city and county jobs and staff, so you can always look up those job descriptions. They're always available and the pay rates are always available, and so you can start to see how the pay in your organization is comparing with other similar kinds of organizations. And that's where you start to make your plans for what you want to do in the future.

Speaker 1: 40:31

And typically the first place we start is just with dealing with any inequities that are unintentionally a part of the system that currently exists. So maybe there's a manager who's paid way below all the other managers and it's not because they don't have, you know, the similar level of job responsibilities. It's just they've been with the organization for a long time and never got a raise because of things that happens, you know, or someone was hired in to a new position this happens all the time and you had to pay them a certain amount in order to be able to hire them. But that means that they're now paid above a whole bunch of other people that work in the organization. So it's trying to create a plan to bring everybody up to that same amount and then creating your systems for ongoing like looking at what's happening with pay and reviewing it and creating the plan for next year.

Speaker 1: 41:40

So that can look like deciding on percentage merit increases or cost of living adjustments that happen annually. You can tie performance reviews to raises or you can have them be completely separate and do performance reviews at one time of year and raises at another time of year. You can come up with kind of a plan for bonuses or, if you have cash influxes, what you're going to do with those. And then another thing to think about this is like there's more in the later end of things, when there is financial stability, is having different savings. I call them savings buckets, but like if you want to be able to provide paid parental leave, then deciding how much you want to contribute to that and having some savings that's already available for that use. Or if you have a paid time off policy, having a savings bucket so that if someone leaves and they have a large balance, then you're able to pay it out and it's not like a scramble to try to find the funds for it.

Speaker 2: 42:52

Yeah, I love how, how practical and systematic that is.

Speaker 1: 42:59

Yeah, I find it really helps to just get it out where you can see it, instead of and I use a spreadsheet and keep it really simple like with just the main pieces of information in it. So it's not because sometimes I think executive directors or boards will try to look through this information, but it will come out as more of like a narrative in a longer like word document and it'll tell a story about how the decision was made and it'll have all the information in it, or some of it will be missing, and but if you just look at it in that kind of spreadsheet form, it's easier to see where the discrepancies might be and to be able to address them.

Speaker 2: 43:54

Thank you for all the support that you can bring for people around that and if anybody needs help with that, I'm happy to help.

Speaker 1: 44:03

The other part of it is that it's kind of like activating for the nervous system to look at all the numbers and the people and there's like fairness is wrapped up in it and that people can feel judgment or stress or and often the executive directors pay, as like in this list too and so there's a part of it that is also giving yourself time to process, to look at it and then maybe take a little bit of time away and then look at it again and to have a really clear communication plan around any changes that you're making. Because if you just keep talking to the staff every tiny step of the way of your decision-making process, that actually is more stressful for them than if you work through the issues first and then kind of present a plan and you can ask for feedback on that plan If you want to. There's a good process that you would want to have in place for that, but I can see it sometimes gets really squirrely and difficult for people if they don't know what is going to happen with their pay.

Speaker 2: 45:24

Yeah, so many different layers and levels to that process change process.

Speaker 1: 45:30

Yeah, thank you for the question and thank you so much for joining me, it was Annice.

Speaker 2: 45:35

it's been really fun, thank you.

Speaker 1: 45:39

Hit subscribe to know when the next episodes come out. And, if you're feeling generous, please leave a review. Reviews help other like-minded folks find their way to this resource. If something you heard today brought a smile to your face or a spark to your heart and you'd like to connect with me, there are a few ways to do that. One is my newsletter, where I put most of my time and energy when I'm not working with clients or with my family or working on this podcast Sorry, social media. The newsletter is a mix of real life stories, tips and tricks and, of course, updates on what's happening with the podcast. Whenever something's going on with me or in my business, it always comes out there first.

Speaker 1: 46:33

Another resource that I have for you is my guide to doing work differently. This guide takes you through four inquiries into how you can build a more sustainable and equitable work environment for yourself and your team. It's a great place if you're looking for somewhere to get started. Last, if you've got a burning question, a comment or a situation you'd like my eyes on, you can email me. All those links are in the show notes. Take care, Brave Soul. Catch you next time.