Believe in People
Believe in People explores the realities of addiction, recovery, and stigma through conversations with those who’ve lived it.
Featuring voices from across the recovery community - individuals with lived experience, frontline professionals, public figures, and policymakers - offering unfiltered insight into the personal and societal challenges surrounding substance use.
Hosted by Matthew Butler and produced by Robbie Lawson, this award-winning series is a trusted platform for dialogue, empathy, and change.
🎙 2024 British Podcast Award Winner - Best Interview
🎙 2025 Radio Academy Award Nominee - Best Speech & Entertainment
🎙 2024 Radio Academy Award Nominee - Best New Podcast
Believe in People
67 | Young Lee: Recovery vs. Recovered - Fatherhood, Identity & The Spiritual Path
In this gripping return to Believe in People, Young Lee opens up about what happens after the chaos of addiction — when the drugs are gone, the dust has settled, and the real work begins. Once a rising star in the music scene, Young shares how losing everything forced him to rebuild from scratch — not just a life, but a self. Through daily spiritual practice, honest service, and the quiet discipline of presence, he’s found a deeper kind of freedom — one rooted not in status or success, but in being truly useful.
This isn’t just a story of surviving addiction — it’s a raw, unflinching look at the spiritual journey of being recovered. Young speaks with moving clarity about earning back trust from his children, breaking the illusion of control, and staying grounded in a world that pulls us in every direction. If you’ve ever wondered what recovery really looks like years down the line — this episode is your answer. It’s not about perfection. It’s about showing up, telling the truth, and choosing peace, one day at a time.
If you liked this episode then you'll also love Young's first appearance in episode 41 👇
https://open.spotify.com/episode/6UtKzvrzzqVJWLQxZSehJ8
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/41-young-heroin-house-music-healing-smuggling-acid/id1617239923?i=1000650255345
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📩 Contact: robbie@believeinpeoplepodcast.com
🎵 Music: “Jonathan Tortoise” by Christopher Tait (Belle Ghoul / Electric Six)
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🎙️ Facilitator: Matthew Butler
🎛️ Producer: Robbie Lawson
🏢 Network: ReNew
This is a Renew Original Recording. Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a two-time Radio Academy Award-nominated and British Podcast Award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery and stigma. My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host, or as I like to say, your facilitator, in this episode. I welcome back Young Lee for his second appearance on Believe in People, following the overwhelming response and demand from listeners to have him back in the chair. Young's story struck a chord with listeners across the country and this conversation dives even deeper into the spiritual, emotional and practical tools that helped him rebuild a life from the wreckage of addiction.
Speaker 1:Once having lost everything his home, career and family Jung now lives a life rooted in spiritual practice, personal responsibility and a commitment to service. He distinguishes between simply being in recovery and truly being recovered, challenging that notion that sobriety is just about not using substances. For Jung, it's about emotional maturity, consistent action and a daily return to presence. Jung finds peace not in external achievement but in being present, honest and useful. We explored the dangers of conflating work and recovery services with doing actual personal recovery work and the invisible threshold where addiction takes away choice. Through humility, meditation and helping others, jung has found a purpose beyond external validation and rediscovered his role as a father, not through promises, but through lived demonstration. This is a conversation about freedom, not just from substances, but from ego, self-obsession and old stories. I begin my conversation with Jung by asking how he went about rebuilding his recovery and where the moments were where he felt stuck or where he struggled with self-forgiveness.
Speaker 2:Thank you for inviting me back. People didn't used to invite me back anywhere for many years of my life. It's a very good question to start off with, and coming back to where we are in this building today, as I spoke to you earlier on, has really brought me back to the beginning of the end for me, when I spent a lot of time in drug and alcohol centres in London and Essex and then Sheffield and, like I said last time, I really did lose everything everything you know. I had the house, the cars, clothes, etc. All the material trappings that I believed was where happiness was. I believe that was what life was about getting material stuff.
Speaker 2:And when my partner, my children's mother, she caught me taking heroin in the family home chucked me out. That was the beginning of the end and it took maybe seven years to get right to the end where, at the end of my using and drinking and apologies if I'm repeating myself from last time there was me in a council flat in sheffield and a sofa. Now I'd even sold my curtains to cash converters or crack converters, as I like to talk literally I sold the council gave me some curtains, you know, brand new.
Speaker 2:I sold them for five pounds. That was strip, strip, strip. So to try and focus on your question, that was my starting point of nothing, nothing, Obviously no car, no TV, no VCR, like nothing. Everything had gone. You know, I mentioned last time I was in the music industry, bit by bit, the decks. You know the techniques. They were going, the mixer was going, the speakers, so there was nothing. So when I entered treatment the last time, for the last time, I entered with one bag of clothes. That was my life. That nothing, nothing else. And what's just come into my mind? The place where I did a detox for methadone and alcohol and benzos. Before I went into the treatment center, the one which I work in today, a lady from a group that I used to attend came to bring me socks because I didn't have any. God knows where I lost those.
Speaker 3:But you know, I'm just trying to paint the picture of where I'm coming from.
Speaker 2:So when I left that place I had no idea what I was going to do for the rest of my life. Now, of course, I can't think that big anyway, because it's like we can only live life one day at a time and it's a very cliche statement which you use in recovery circles to live one day at a time. But still that didn't stop the fear and in my mind, what am I going to do? I'm 43 years old. All I've known is the music industry, which I really don't want to go back to, because every time I went back to the music industry after a treatment setting I'd always fall back into my old life and I used to sell drugs and now I'm trying to live an honest life. I know I knew from that stage, because of the the work we did in treatment, that I needed to go through this complete transformation in all areas of my life, because when I used to leave treatment before I was just clean no change, yeah, still thinking like a drug addict.
Speaker 2:Um, so I went into a sober living place in sheffield and I moved around in a few different buildings and ended up living in this place and I'd lived in better looking crack houses in hackney. There was no shower. There was an old in my mind it was an old tin bath, but that would be exaggerating slightly One room, me and another guy in a tiny, tiny kitchen. And I remember lying there and thinking what am I going to do? I just want to be a normal person. I'd look out the window at people going to their jobs nine to five Suddenly.
Speaker 2:I wished just to be a normal person. I'd look out the window at people going to their jobs nine to five Suddenly. I wished just to be normal. I wished for the thing that I'd always rebelled against In my music career. Yeah, look at those losers nine to five, that sort of thing as my drug life losers. I can do whatever. And now I just yearned for normality. But how do I get there? I've got no idea. I've got no transferable skills. What's your? What have you been doing the last 10 years of your life, sir? Oh, I've been.
Speaker 2:I've been on heroin, crack, cocaine and doing a bit of crime, and so I felt like I was in the spiritual wilderness, in the desert, everywhere I looked. I just feel a bit lost and what I did is I went on this course called the Ambassador's Course through Sheffield Drug and Alcohol Agency and it was for people like me who had either come out of treatment or were in recovery, and I think it was run in partnership with the NHS and I started to do that and get really into that and the point was you learnt lots of different stuff. I know that's really not describing it well, but I can't really remember too much.
Speaker 2:And then at the end of that course you got to volunteer with one of the recovery organizations like the NHS or the local drug and alcohol team or shelter. And I remember at the end of that I went for some interviews and I got offered a job at every single place and I couldn't believe it. I thought wow.
Speaker 2:And I was about to take a job there and then I got a call from someone who had seen me around the 12-step rooms and had known me from a long way back and had obviously seen something in me and seen that I was going through change this time. He knew at this stage oh, this is what I forgot to mention I seriously threw myself into yoga. I was introduced to it in one of the treatment settings and I was practicing yoga every single day when I left treatment Because I wasn't working. So I had the time to do that and I thought to myself maybe I'll be a yoga teacher. That came into my mind because I loved it. I still do love yoga. And I got seriously into meditation, also because I loved it.
Speaker 2:I still do love yoga and I got seriously into meditation also, and so this guy had heard or seen that I was into yoga and meditation and one day he called me up and he said he explained what he did and he had a company that worked with very wealthy clients who were trying to get into recovery. They were paying about £25, pound a week for their treatment. Um, and he said, are you looking for work young? I said yes, I am, and then the next day found me in this very swanky apartment in manchester, uh, working with this client, helping him with like meditation, yoga and kind of just being like a chaperone, because when you're paying that much money, you've got about 10 people around you, you've got all sorts of stuff.
Speaker 2:And so I started working for this company and I worked for them for a few years and it helped me get back on my feet and I just so, I just kind of fell into it really, you know. And then through there I did some work with a family rehab unit in Sheffield, phoenix Futures. Only briefly, they offered me a job as well and you know they do some amazing work with these mothers, with these tiny and fathers, tiny babies, and heartbreaking, heartbreaking. I remember a lady came out of hospital with a newborn baby and this is the power of this illness. She left the baby to go and score, yeah, and didn't come back absolutely and you know that's the power of this illness.
Speaker 1:The love this mother had for her child wasn't enough to stop her mind from twisting and sending her back out and that's the thing that people don't don't relate to with addiction, because you try telling that to someone who hasn't experienced addiction, they can't comprehend that, can't comprehend it?
Speaker 2:no, because on paper, yeah. They would say well, why, why would you do this? And the addict, if they don't understand the illness, would say I don't know, and they would hate themselves for that you can guarantee that person, like millions of others in in our city today, will be using, not saying, oh, this is amazing. They'll be using them when they start coming down. They'll be hating themselves, they'll be full of regret, remorse, shame, regret, but not knowing how to stop this thing.
Speaker 1:There was a point you said a second ago about the bath and the and the tin bath. Yeah, the reason why I pick up on that is because I want to ask about looking back at your addiction how much of it do you romanticize? And the reason why I ask that is because we had a previous participant on before and he said he was driving past, uh, basically an old crack den that he used to stay in around christmas time and he said he remembers the snow outside. He said I remember the fire being on and he said I create this picture in my head but when I really think about it he said it wasn't like that he said the the toilet was broken, the sink was hanging off the wall.
Speaker 1:He said it was an awful environment. But he said there's part of him that looks back at that journey and looks back at where he was and almost tries to add a positive spin to it, like it was something that it wasn't. And when you mentioned then about the tin bath, it reminded me of that. Do you look back at any of your previous using and maybe try and make it out to be, um, I suppose not as chaotic as it was or more spiritual than it was, like where? What do you think when you look back at previous, like cracked ends and places that you've stayed? Do you know what?
Speaker 2:what? No, I never do In previous carnations, if that's even a proper word of me being in recovery. I used to and I'd always relapse. There's not one part of me that thinks, oh, that would be, or even gets a feeling, or no no, and don't get me wrong.
Speaker 2:Don't get me wrong. For maybe a decade, maybe even more, there were some great times on drugs. Yeah, I understand that. But it led me to absolute hell and misery and I'm very neutral in the area of drugs and alcohol today. It doesn't. I don't think good or bad, it just is I've been placed in this position of neutrality. I'm not fighting it.
Speaker 1:I think that's how you have to be when you're working in this sector, because I suppose the misconception about services like ours is people think we're here to tell people to stop using drugs and the reality is I always say we're here to tell people if you are going to use, here's how you do it safely. I think we have to be quite neutral. I think once people are ready to make changes, we help them make changes, but if someone's not ready, then we can't force it upon someone. So I think we have to remain neutral and work with where people are. Is that different for you working in a rehab? Because, naturally, in a rehab it is absence based. It isn't about prevention or harm reduction. So, despite neutrality, is it a little bit different for you and the naturally and how you feel in those environments?
Speaker 2:yeah, and and you're, you're spot on there. I'm thinking of a phone call I had with someone last night and they were asking about a relative, let's say, and I said there's nothing you can do about it, it has to come from them. Yeah, and and of and of course, not everyone is there yet. Not everyone's there yet where they want to, um, be free of this horrible illness and have a life better than the one they could ever imagine. You know, I drove past a few guys there and they reminded me of me and I I looked at them.
Speaker 2:That's an unhappy life. Yeah, there's nothing joyful about that. Look on your face. When you're just skinny and gray, there's nothing joyful about that. But when you're in it, you can't see the truth from the false until something just cracks in you and you've just like, okay, what do I do? So to answer your question, it is different because in in the treatment setting, everyone has come in on the basis of that. They want to live, uh, an abstinence life and they want to be clean and sober permanently. You know, that's that's the, that's the kind of the deal in our place and so they would have, especially because we are private and services, especially if they've gone through services, they would have had to jump through some sort of hoops.
Speaker 3:Do you know what I mean, because there's only a little bit of money available, isn't there?
Speaker 2:But that's not to say everyone's ready, even Even the ones in there, but that's not to say everyone's ready, even yeah, even the ones in there, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the talk about. I had a guy before and he said you know, he said he hates it when people tell him that relapse is part of the process. He said because I feel like you're giving me an excuse to go and use. Do you know what? It's not part of the process.
Speaker 2:Relapse is a part of not having recovery like a solid the recovery that I practice.
Speaker 3:And I always share this.
Speaker 2:I always share this and, like I spoke to you earlier, I have to be careful because of certain traditions and anonymity. But I can say a 12-step program, I just won't say which one. We have 100% I'm going to be a bit controversial 100% success rate for those who live in a 12-step program. Now, percentages that are thrown out there, people that kind of make these. I probably talk about people who go to meetings. Now, meetings are not the program, they're just a small part of the program and I work with hundreds, thousands maybe over the years. Maybe I'm not even exaggerating about that.
Speaker 2:Those guys who live in a 12-step program, they don't relapse, don't relapse. You know, those who were in a program kind of stopped doing it, yeah, they relapse, but those who were in it don't, and often in places drug and alcohol places they'd say, oh, it's just a lapse. Well, as a drug addict and alcoholic, I know where that leads. Yeah, you know, and it's not part of recovery, it's part of being a drug addict and alcoholic. Without a solution, I can stay sober and clean for a certain amount of time. Yeah, you know, I can be on a methadone. You know I'm going to always, gonna always. I'm gonna be always in this cycle, you know, I might get clean for a little bit and then I'm back in it and then it gets worse, and then I do.
Speaker 1:You know, I'm glad you said that about being a small part of the process as well, because I think me, people think I'll go to the meeting a couple days a week and that'll sort you out, but it's, it's everything that you do as part of that is the daily routine, the, the almost like the rituals that you have to live by absolutely in order to maintain the abstinence it.
Speaker 2:It really is. It really is because I think there's a narrative that just go to loads of meetings. Go to loads of and of course they're important because I'll meet recovered people that can show me the process that keeps them well. Yeah, um, but it's only one part of a big hole.
Speaker 1:You were talked about um parents and their children. Yeah and um, I suppose the the madness of of that you know. Talking about, uh, babies, but yourself, you you previously mentioned um the pain of not seeing your children during active addiction. How has your journey in recovery impacted your role as a father?
Speaker 2:Good question. So I've just spent the weekend with my two youngest children, who live down south, and it's probably a 10-hour journey from where I live, you know, round trip. So I only see them about once every three weeks, which is not the best, but it's the best I can do at the moment. Okay, going back to that question, so it must have been very difficult for my kids anyone's children, you know and this can be a really difficult thing for people in recovery the guilt and shame of what we've done, you know we've not.
Speaker 2:I cannot be a father when I'm a drug addict, an alcoholic. I can convince myself, but I'm not even if I'm seeing them. I'm not even if I'm seeing them, I'm not there emotionally. I'm not. Giving you know my all to them. So my children today know that they have a father who is reliable and dependable and I'm emotionally sober. They know that I don't shout, I don't get angry with them and they know that's how I show up. You know, consistently.
Speaker 2:And it's taken a while and I will share this. You know I've been clean over six years, just over six years now, and for the first two years I think it was that long my daughter refused to speak to me when I used to go up to see her brother. She would literally run into her bedroom, you know. And I remember that phone call in rehab where her mum said to me do you not realize your daughter hates you? And that felt, oh my goodness. But I remember it was a pivotal moment for me because I went upstairs in the rehab, I was lying on my bed and I was falling into self-pity. Oh, my god, poor me. And then suddenly something said poor her, what about her? Why do you always make it about you? What are you going to do different? It was almost like that. What you're going to do different? Because in the past I'd always just be like, oh my god, and and I can't sit in that pain for very long before my head knows a way out of that pain through drugs and alcohol um.
Speaker 2:So they know they've got a dependable dad today and we have a very good relationship. We were just talking this weekend about um a summer holiday we're going to plan overseas. It cost me fortune. It cost you, yeah, but I love being able to do this for them today, because I've been missing for a while, you know, so I'm making that up.
Speaker 1:Working in the rehab, I'm sure you'll encounter many people in a similar situation to that. What advice would you give to parents who are new to recovery, because I think some people like, as you said, then your daughter didn't speak to you for the first two years. I think some people in the mindset of oh, once I get once I'm clean I can have a relationship my kids.
Speaker 1:Well, a lot's happened in that time and that, as you said, poor hair children aren't as forgiving as oh, you're clean, now come back into the fold. You know what I mean. So what advice would you give to parents?
Speaker 2:it's a good question again, because that can be the mindset of the drug addict or alcoholic goes into rehab. I, I and I'm talking. I can talk for my experience. I go into rehab because I've been into four and I come out of and and it's almost like when I go back to the family home I think they're gonna have the bunting out and the band.
Speaker 2:Well, done, you're clean and sober way, let's have a party. It's like well, they haven't forgot all the mess you've caused and this and this and this, but I, I kind of sort of want everyone to give me a pat on the back. It's the kind of mindset of me, the drug addict.
Speaker 3:You, you know unrecovered.
Speaker 2:I'm still absolutely selfish and self-centered. The advice I would give it's going to be in their time, if they forgive, if they want a relationship and that's tricky because I want to, yeah, but it's different this time. But I've got to remember. My words are cheap. I've said that a million times and then I've done it again and again. And what was taught to me? It's about your demonstration, it's about your consistent action. It's about you giving money to the mum. Money to the mum.
Speaker 2:I remember and I was left the ark where I work and and speaking to one of one of the staff there, that that I used to speak to a lot and I and I used to say, oh, the mum does this. And he said, young, she just wants to see some money from you. You know, this is your demonstration that you're going to go through change. So I think, just to kind of put it in a nutshell, it's about having patience, it's about concentrating on your recovery, not concentrating on getting the kids back. And I'll tell you a quick story.
Speaker 2:I remember I was in a treatment centre and there was a young lady who was in there. This was quite a while ago and she was in there to get her kids back. Her kids were sort of taken off her and she was fighting to get her kids back. So she was in treatment to kind of show the courts she was getting better and stuff and people used to always say you can't do this for anyone else, it has to be for you. She did get her kids back and I saw her recently on the streets of a certain city on the streets.
Speaker 2:You know it's. My point in telling that story is is if I'm doing recovery for other people, to get my kids back, or because I want something. In my experience, recovery is only temporary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know yeah, I think that was something I learned quite early on when I first came into this field is, if people say that they're doing it for others, it won't last, they need to do it for themselves. And that is something that has always stuck with me because, as you've said, then anyone that I've seen coming and saying I've got to do it for them, I've got it, it doesn't last yeah, you see the lapses, you see the relapses as part of that process.
Speaker 1:We know that recovery isn't just about stopping drug use. You mentioned about being emotionally sober, which is an interesting way of putting it. What have been some of the biggest emotional or psychological battles that you've had since sobriety.
Speaker 2:Okay yeah, recovery certainly isn't about just not using or just not drinking. That's obviously the start. But if just not using, if drugs or alcohol was our problem, all you'd need is a detox. But think how many guys you work with who have multiple detoxes, like the guy downstairs been out of rehab four days.
Speaker 2:He wants to go back on a script. I wanted to shake him, say there's an answer, man. But when we take drugs and alcohol out of us as drug addicts and alcoholics, it's no different than I've cut off the top of a weed. I haven't got to the root of the problem. So the weeds, the illness is still growing. The illness is still growing, but I don't know, because I got a new pair of air max and got a new girlfriend and you know I think I'm doing really good. Yeah, um, so, yeah, the, the words, we that I use that.
Speaker 2:The emotional sobriety, we call it emotional sobriety. It's where we live in recovery, in a way that I don't rely on external things for my contentness. You know, I don't rely on people to behave in a certain way for me to be okay. Or I could get a phone call now off my partner saying I'm cheating on you and I'm not going to fall to bits. It's not going to stop me from being sad and upset and feel betrayed, but it's not going to affect my internal. So emotional challenges, I think.
Speaker 1:Or you said a similar word.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:I guess what we're looking at really is because you just seem like the most chilled out bloke ever.
Speaker 2:I'm quite chilled.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's almost like nothing faces you. I know this has obviously been a process to get you to this point, so I'm kind of looking at how you manage that stress or anxiety, all those difficult situations without going back to them, old routines that you used to go to, and I've got to say that I used to be a really angry man.
Speaker 2:I saw a meme the other day and it said something like you don't know how much pain I've been through to get to this calmness and I thought I really relate to that. Yeah, when I was in rehab they they gave me a book called king baby to read I've heard of.
Speaker 1:I've heard of this king, because that was me.
Speaker 2:You'd look at me in a way. I'd be a real reactor to life, real, reactor um, I remember in in my recovery so my auntie, who was like my mother. She showed me love when I wasn't shown love and all the rest of it. I loved her dearly, dearly, dearly, during there was a thing called lockdown did you hear about it?
Speaker 2:might have heard of it there was a thing called lockdown. This Covid thing happened. I was up in manchester working and I remember my she. She started developing dementia and it started getting quite bad and we got this sort of feeling that this lockdown it happened in europe and it was going to happen here. So my first thought was I need to get down to make sure she's all right, and at the time I didn't have a car. So I rushed to Sheffield, got a hire car, drove down, ended up staying with her for quite a few months and sort of looking after her, and for anyone who's got a relative with dementia they'll know that that's a real challenge.
Speaker 2:To bathe someone that you never thought you'd see in the nude for one thing right, and to just look at them with these eyes like this is a child almost. For someone that used to be like your teacher, who now is looking up to you confused and not knowing what to do, making them dinner, them repeating themselves over and over, is a challenging thing, especially being in it day in, day out, and so I think I'd say that was the most challenging. But I've got to say this I remember waking up there looking out the window and thinking this is one of the happiest moments of my life. That's mind-blowing. Now you're saying how do I kind of deal with those things?
Speaker 2:This is where my program steps in. I spend a lot of time in prayer and meditation. I spend a lot of time helping others, like my spare time is like this morning, since 5 am I I spoke to a few guys in in the states. I've taken someone through some work. I've been the drive from Scarborough to here. I've been on the phone with drug addicts and alcoholics and the more I do that, the deeper peace I feel. And I don't think it's a new thing. People have been doing this since the beginning of time helping others.
Speaker 3:Mother Teresa never seen her angry Gandhi.
Speaker 2:never seen him with an ASBO.
Speaker 1:You know? Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:You know. So I just kind of do these kind of simple things and it's kind of it's become part, just what I do without thinking, and so I have been through, because this is the thing, Just because we get clean and sober life doesn't say okay, oh, you've had a hard time, now I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to ease off you now.
Speaker 3:No life is life.
Speaker 2:I used to always say, oh, it's so unfair. What? Who was that football player Balotelli?
Speaker 1:Why always me? Why always me? Yeah.
Speaker 2:And someone said to me why should? Why do you think life should be fair? Life is just life, young, and so the wind is gonna blow. I remember having my heart broken in in. I'd probably two years in and I'd never felt like heartbreak, like like that, but it was still okay. My sponsor just said just keep helping people, you need to get out of your head. That's where the pain is. Yeah, pain's just in your head, unless you've had your arm chopped off yeah, yeah so I just kept doing those things.
Speaker 2:Um so I don't, I don't try and deal with anything in my head, I just kind of do these simple practices unless you're doing these other things yeah, something's really shifted in my whole outlook and attitude upon life.
Speaker 2:I don't see things as good and bad anymore. I see things as sometimes challenging, maybe potential learning, and sometimes people say to me you're a bit like a robot. I still feel. I still feel and I can express that. You know, I can express fears that might like. I spotted a fear this morning that that came into my head and it was just like absolutely insane. It was me projecting into like the worst possible scenario of something that hadn't even happened.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I do that all the time most humans, humans do it right Most humans do it.
Speaker 2:But I spotted it very quickly and I phoned someone up and I said he never gets what. So it just lets it out again.
Speaker 1:That's what I've tried doing. More when that's happened is verbalising that. I had a situation two weeks ago, Wednesday, and I could feel it and I just verbalised it to the two friends I was sat with and instantly just verbalized it. The fear had just shrunk, it had gone and because she said to me she went well, well done for acknowledging that, and I was like, yeah, and I instantly felt better for doing that, Whereas I think when I do project, when I am anxious, when I am feeling fear, I keep it to myself.
Speaker 2:And the more I keep it to myself and the more I keep it to myself I can feel it growing it. It does, because you know the anxiety, the worry is just in, there, in in an event that hasn't happened and probably will never happen. Now I always talk about this, think about this. We're very present right here, right now. We're looking at each other, we're speaking to each other. Everything's perfect. There's no worry, there's no anxiety, there's no judgment, there's no stress. There's nothing we need to be or become in this moment. So imagine practicing a life where I can live more in the moment than I do in the future or in the past. That's the key the past that's, that's that's the key, that's
Speaker 1:it. Talking about the past, you know, in the, the previous podcast we talked about your success within the music career and how deeply you were struggling. You talked about the dementia story, then the happiness that you felt. If you put those two things on paper of where you was then and where you was previously, people would instantly think the music career would have been the height of happiness. But looking at that industry in itself, particularly the club and the rave scenes, do you think they almost encourage substance use because it is part of the culture of it, the rave scene? But is that something that's encouraged in a way by the peers, by the industry itself, or do you think it's something that's encouraged in a way by the peers by the industry itself? Or do you think it's something that just weirdly happened, naturally?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's more. It just happened. And let's we've also we've got to remember the majority of people can drink or use without it being problematic in their lives. Now I just thought about some guys I know I don't knock around with them old friends still in their 50s. They'll still do a few lines of coke here and there. It's not a very cool look in your 50s in a kitchen at 6am talking absolute nonsense. But if you want to do that, that's your jam.
Speaker 2:I don't know about you, but I always wanted to find a deeper meaning to life rather than just the surface, and I feel I found that today. But going back to your question, before I get all mystical on your ass, the music industry. Yeah, it's strange. Strange, isn't it? Because on paper it should look like well, what, what do you mean? Why? Why do you keep smashing your life up on drugs? Young, you, you're flying around the world, you're, you're doing amazing, because I used to do amazing projects in the music industry. Like I forget about a lot of the projects I did. I did a project for this lady called sasha wears, I think, or wearing something like that. Her boss was who's the geezer? Who's married to kate winslet, or used to be.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm terrible with things but you know some big, big hollywood dude that was her boss and and I was like music director of this french play in l and stuff, just loads of random stuff I used to put in music to like adverts or brands, and on paper that should be like whoa, you're living the best life.
Speaker 3:What's that thing we see on Facebook?
Speaker 1:Oh living my best life and all that.
Speaker 2:But internally. That's where the peace, the peace and real joy doesn't come from the external, and I had a conversation this morning about this. There's no human person or thing that can give me real peace or joy. It can give me temporary. Temporary, yeah, but then I feel restless again do you think?
Speaker 1:well, actually, I suppose, what advice would you give to, to artists and creatives who are trying to stay sober in those environments? Because I remember there was a looking at like the culture in place, like a beefer and DJing. There was a song by, I think it was called Mike Posner, and it's like I a pill in a beaver. I think that's like the opening line to show avicii I was cool and avicii being you know one of the top djs again.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, passed away himself. I think that was related to substance misuse as well, wasn't it? So what advice would you give to artists who are in those environments that are maybe feeling that peer pressure to partake in substance misuse as well?
Speaker 2:it's a tricky one, isn't it? Because if it's all around you, particularly if you're DJing or you're testing music out, you're in a nighttime environment where you want to stay awake and you know ketamine's a massive epidemic right now amongst young people right. And cocaine is. You know, we used to call cocaine a drug for people who don't like drugs. Yeah, right, because we used to do a lot of acid and a lot of ecstasy and all sorts of stuff that you kind of fully committed for 10 hours or whatever.
Speaker 2:And cocaine this stuff came and oh, you can just do a line and sort of just get on with your everyday business sort of thing but then obviously it escalates, and so any advice look, I don't think there's anything you could say that's going to stop people from doing what they're doing it would be like me being Nancy Reagan, just say no kids, it's going to fuck your life up. Excuse my language.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, Mother, welcome to you.
Speaker 2:I don't swear a lot these days. I used to swear all the time. We can only sort of show people, but do we? Because, look, the majority are not drug addicts and they'll probably grow out of it. Yeah, that's the thing that's it.
Speaker 1:Because some people can use, yeah, recreationally. I think that's the misconception around drug use. Not all drug use leads to dependency. No, no, there's a lot of people, I think, talking about adverse childhood experiences, traumas, depending on the reason for substance, misuse. Some people, in the same way that I can pick up a beer after one and be fine, I'm aware that people of alcohol dependency uh, alcoholics can't do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, some people can just do a line of cocaine every other week and it not turn into a dependency, definitely, and and you can have and this is where it gets, maybe, blurry you can have a hard drug user and a drug addict. They both look the same on paper, they're both using the same amount of drugs. Let's say a lot of drugs and say the doctor said to them if you continue using I don't know, something's going to happen really bad to your body, whatever. So I know what I'm going to throw you in a detox unit. They come out of the detox unit.
Speaker 2:The hard drug user, on that information from the doctor, will be able to stay stopped, but the drug addict won't. Because the drug addict's got this mind that will eventually always twist and in that moment where I'll say, oh, I can just have one, it'll be different this time. They're unable to bring that information from the doctor like, yeah, but if you do that you'll die, unable to yeah, the mind can't save them at certain times, whereas the hard drug user that the brain isn't like that.
Speaker 2:they're able because I I used with with guys over the years in my 20s and 30s that went at it hard but when they kind of fell in love, had kids, they grew out of it. As the drug addict grows into it, regardless of the consequences that are happening in their life. They just cannot stop and cannot stay stopped.
Speaker 1:I like that they're growing out of it and growing into it, because that is something that does happen, that I don't think we give enough attention to.
Speaker 1:So you've worked in treatment centers, uh, experienced multiple rehabs, as you mentioned earlier. Um, if you could change one thing about how addiction treatment is approached today, what would it be? And do you think the system truly supports long-term recovery, thinking of services like this? You talked about that experience you had in the reception area earlier. Looking at the bigger picture, so not just, I suppose, ark House and where you're working, yeah, sort of frontline.
Speaker 2:That's a big question, isn't it? That's a big question.
Speaker 1:Luckily there's no wrong answer to it. There isn't, is there?
Speaker 2:because if, if we could work it out, yeah, it'd be done.
Speaker 1:It's so complex, isn't it?
Speaker 2:so complex. What always breaks my heart? When I see people parked on methadone for years and years, you know it really does. I, I think shouldn't we be aiming higher? Shouldn't we be? Because it just keeps you in this mindset of a drug addict having to. You know the dignity that's taken from you when you have to wait in a chemist and you have to go in a special room or people are watching you while you have to take it, and I know, look, it's no one's fault, it just is what it?
Speaker 2:is. I'm not blaming anyone, but for me abstinence is the way forward, and I understand harm reduction. I get that. I get that there's a space for all of it, but yeah, it's a really difficult question, isn't it? Have you ever worked in prisons?
Speaker 1:I go into them to speak, but I haven't worked in them Because one of the things that I again, no one's ever really answered this for me, but when people are in prison for like five plus years or whatever, and they come out and it's a transfer of care on a methadone program, Now I know you can get drugs in prison. I'm not naive to that, but I often think surely that's an ideal place to get off a methadone prescription. Absolutely I don't understand how that happens. That's something that I personally think is a massive failing of the system, and I'm not.
Speaker 2:I was going to say I'm not right wing, I'm not any wing, hopefully, but this might sound. It might sound really harsh If it was down to me, if it might sound really harsh. If it was down to me, if someone went into prison, I would be mandatory that they have to go for a detox. You don't get a choice, mate.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, because I just think it makes sense. There's less of the temptation, there's less access to it, and I think you can really, if there's ever a time to work on yourself, it's ideal In those environments, isn't environments?
Speaker 2:ideal. You've got nothing else. What else are you gonna do? Watch tv and waste a few years and but it's, it's. Yeah, it's a question that I I'm a bit like I don't really know. Do you know what?
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know, I, I, there's just me sat here expecting you to know everything, about everything.
Speaker 2:But you know, things like we've got to look at what's been working and what hasn't worked for all these years. Things like, okay, keep a Drinks Diary, how's that going? But that's the best we can do. I'm going to just repeat something that hasn't been working. So let's put the stuff on the table what's working and because, what are we seeing as success? You know, I know there's a lot of figures and that to get funding and everything, but really, if we delved into it, who's clean and sober for five years, 10 years, 20 years, or is it this series of? Because it costs a lot of money, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:You know, I've cost the taxpayer a lot of money. One of the things that I'm doing today by me helping all these people. It's kind of my amends to the taxpayer and society. Yeah, give back yeah, but you know, so many are dying right, so many are dying from this illness, absolutely, and they don't have to. That's the thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, going back to yourself working as a DJ. Do you know? That was your identity? It was tied to being a DJ, a drug dealer and an addict. How did you navigate that shift in identity and was there ever a point where you struggled with who you are without drugs? And the reason why I say this is because I had a guy I was working with before and he said once he'd got clean, he went. I feel naked. He went. I feel like everybody's looking at me. I said the chances are people were looking at you more when you was on drugs. He went, yeah, but now he said I just feel bare. Does that resonate with yourself?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't know what I was going to become. I didn't know. You know, like you said, I'd used drugs and alcohol from the age of 11 to 43.
Speaker 1:That's what I mean. It was a massive part of my identity.
Speaker 2:I didn't know a different me, you know, and when we say a huge part of my identity, particularly before the heroin and crack cocaine, it was like this real, you know, on that, on the acid house scene and and all that sort of stuff, we were like a tribe, it was new, it was no different from the mods and the rockers and all this when at first we we would just felt this real like connection and it was all kind of a tapestry of of drugs going all through through it and so.
Speaker 2:But like we've talked about, we've we've kind of talked about. You know, the majority of people can, can use that without it being a problem. But I'm a drug addict so it starts being my medication for life. So when I take out my medication, think about it. Any illness that you have. If you were taking some medication to stop an illness and now you just decided to stop taking it, you're not going to suddenly feel better.
Speaker 3:You're going to feel worse.
Speaker 2:So my experiences of being coming out of detoxes or other treatment settings where I hadn't been through this change or didn't continue to go through change by living this new way of life, I did feel very naked and I did feel very exposed and I relate to what your friend talked about. And this time I didn't feel like that so much but I still I was a bit unsure of what am I? What's my identity?
Speaker 1:What was that process like then, in finding yourself, I guess? What sort of things did you? You talked about yoga and, I guess, going back to the spirituality of it. But what is that process? Was you surprised by anything that you found out about yourself during that sobriety? I?
Speaker 2:was, and I still am, absolutely, absolutely, especially coming out of so many years of really dark, hardcore drug addiction and alcoholism almost you know I use this phrase a lot. I feel like I've been reborn, literally, like coming out of some water like wow, breathing yeah. You know I talk about this a lot. You know I talk about this a lot.
Speaker 2:What it feels like is I have the eyes of a five-year-old child today like looking at a rainbow for the first time. Oh my god, wow. I feel like that. On one hand, I do. I feel like I get like that.
Speaker 2:But I'm finally a man, not just like in a man's body, but with a boy's brain, like a child's brain. Yeah, because it's said a lot, isn't it the addict alcoholic? We stop our emotional development and we see that working amongst people in it. We see it, yeah, yeah, yeah, I react like a kid and oh, I don't want to do this and you know I fight.
Speaker 2:But this transformation, and that's what I'm amazed at, I used to take myself so seriously, life so seriously. I used to feel like the life was just this heavy burden to wear. Oh, my God, have you seen this? What's happening in the world and all that. And so I'm really surprised by these new eyes that I've been given. I didn't expect it, I didn't know what to expect. I just wanted to stop relapsing and stop ending up in places like this and treatment. And then I guess what happened, as I started to kind of wake up a little bit, I guess, is that I started seeing that there was more to just being sober. There was more on offer, almost like the light switch is going on. The dimmer switch is going on. Maybe I could have a normal life, maybe I could pay tax.
Speaker 1:Well, I didn't say that, but let's not go too heavy. But it's starting to think about those things, spirituality being one of the topics of today. What does spirituality mean to you today, in this moment?
Speaker 2:Okay. So it's the most important part of my being today. On a most basic level, it means that every single person I'm going to come across today, I'm going to try and be kind, loving, patient, tolerant and useful. In a real nutshell, it's not all about going up a mountain praying or whatever. Yeah, that'd be great, but how am I showing up in life, in with the people around me? Can I find compassion in the person who's really challenging? Can I see through their humanness and see them as just a really sick individual rather than an annoying individual, you know?
Speaker 3:can I do that?
Speaker 2:how useful am I being today? How am I growing on these spiritual lines? And I didn't know I was going to end up in this place when I came in. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:With 12-step programs, there is obviously the spirituality element of it. Some people really struggle with that. Was there resistance from you at first? Because I think when we first spoke about it you'd gone through, you'd gone to some meetings, then you stopped and then you relapsed and obviously at one point it works, doesn't it? The penny drops Was there resistance from you with it at first? And if so, what did?
Speaker 2:that look like so, for those 10 years when I was just going to meetings, relapsing because, remember, the meetings are not the program.
Speaker 3:They're just one part.
Speaker 2:I didn't understand what the program was. I didn't even really think about those 12 steps where it says the word God, because that's the word that people are so resistant against. And when people say to me because because, look, I'll say god all day long. But when I say that word, what does the mind automatically go to? If I said god, christianity, christianity I'm not, I'm not talking about a christian god. I'm just using it as a word to try and describe the undescribable.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know what?
Speaker 2:I mean, I like that. Yeah, and we talk about this is a spiritual program, not a religious one, because often people will go straight well, I don't like God and I don't believe in God. And I'll say well, what is God? You know well, I don't like God and I don't believe in God. And I'll say well, what is God? All I know is that this time, going back to your question I had no resistance. I was so broken. And why I had no resistance?
Speaker 2:Because when I go to one meeting and someone is saying I used to be broken like you, young, I live in these 12 steps. I've had a spiritual awakening which just means transformation and change. Like I've said to you, I used to be very angry and I'm not. There's transformation and change. I used to struggle with life. I don't today. When one person says it, I might be because the words seem strange, and then I go to another city and another geyser says it, and then I go to another city and then I get on these beautiful zoo meetings and I go to a meeting in new york and another, oh, maybe what I do know? I don't know this thing they're talking about, but what I do know is I don't want what I've got anymore. That's all I know. And someone said have your own experience young. And someone said this to me and I say it to my guys that I work with.
Speaker 2:He said if you launch yourself in to this program, what we do here with as much enthusiasm as you did when you were out there using and drinking if you do that for six months and you don't like the sobriety, joy, peace, sense of purpose and direction and meaning that you'll find in your life the drug dealer's still waiting for you. They haven't shut up shop because oh, let's stop selling crack, because young stopped using the boozer's still on the corner. You can have your misery back, young, if you want it.
Speaker 2:Don't have to have it, and this is the thing Not everyone is going to be. You have to be desperate man, and this isn't new, is it Like? There's many instances documented of people not even drug addicts or alcoholics who who've had like near-death experiences and have had spiritual experiences and their life has been changed Many, many, many, many. And I think it's like that with us drug addicts and alcoholics, we have almost near-death experiences which kind of help us to seek something we don't really understand.
Speaker 1:Since your first episode aired, we had nearly a quarter of a million engagements across all platforms on your preview clip, and by far one of the most talked about topics has been this idea of being recovered rather than being in recovery. Some people found it inspiring, while others challenged the idea, saying addiction is a lifelong battle. One thing you said that really resonated was I love being in this state of recovered, so I don't take my foot off the spiritual ghast, and it doesn't mean cured. Can you expand on what being recovered means to you and how do you balance that mindset while maintaining the work needed to stay in a good place?
Speaker 2:and it's a very good question and it and it's one that comes up a lot. So in the book Alcoholics Anonymous I'm not saying I'm in that fellowship, I'm just saying in the book, it only uses the word recovered.
Speaker 2:So if you study the book and you see that it doesn't use the word recovering, the first page when you open it up it says the story of how 100 men and women have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body. Now I think where the confusion lies with people is that they're mistaking that word for cured. I'm never going to be cured and what that means is I've always got the allergy what we mean by an allergy. If I put that into me and it's vodka now, I couldn't just have one and be satisfied. Something would go off in me and I would want more and more, and then by the end of the night I'd be smoking crack cocaine. So I'm not cured of that.
Speaker 2:What we recovered from is this mental twist of the mind that used to always, because that's real. When we talk in 12-step circles about powerlessness, often if I speak to people and I say, what do you understand by that? They will always say, well, once I put one in, I can't stop. But that's not the real power, that is a powerlessness. But if that was your problem, what would be the solution? Just stop, yeah. Well, why can't you? Because I've got a mind that that would put this thought into my head and convince me I can just have one today. That's the real powerlessness I've got. You know, a drug addict and alcoholic take drugs and alcohol out of them. They're like a ticking time bomb. They've got no idea when that's kind of come into their head. Did I use my Terminator analogy last time? I don't know.
Speaker 1:Just go again please.
Speaker 2:So I often talk about this powerlessness and I relate it to the Terminator. You know the film from the 80s Great film yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1:Terminator 2 is one of my favourite films. It's great, great film.
Speaker 2:Now the Terminator didn't care. If you're having a good day, a bad day, what your emotions were, Didn't care. You'd had enough. Please leave me alone. What was his catchphrase?
Speaker 1:Hasta la vista.
Speaker 2:No, leave me alone. What? What was his catchphrase? Hasta la vista. No, the other one, I'll be back. I'll be back. There we go. Yeah, his catchphrase wasn't, I might be back. Yeah, oh, you've had a detox now I won't be back oh you've had six months in rehab.
Speaker 2:I want it was, I'll be back. Yeah, now any drug addict or alcoholic will know that's true. Without, without a recovery program, right, I take drugs and alcohol out of me. And drugs and alcohol have never said go and have a lovely life, I'm going to leave you alone now. You've learned enough about relapse prevention. You've learned enough about triggers and all these kind of nonsense things. The thought always comes back. I'll be back, just standing at my door. You know, I can't even remember the question we were talking about.
Speaker 1:I suppose it's. When does recovery become?
Speaker 2:recovery. Oh yeah, oh, that was. I went off on the right tangent there.
Speaker 1:No, no it's right, though, what you're saying is all relevant.
Speaker 2:So it's very different from being cured, recovered. A drug addict and alcoholic relapses because they're a drug addict and alcoholic. Without a program, I I relapse. My mind twists, you know I'll be back, sort of thing. Yeah, um, I've recovered from that twist of the mind. That's what we. We say yeah. Now when people say, oh, you'll get, I'll always be recovering. If you got shot in the arm, would you always be recovering from your gunshot wound? No, it would heal.
Speaker 1:It would heal.
Speaker 2:That would be a horrible place to always be recovering, having to watch out where I go. I wouldn't like to live like that myself, and I know you don't have to if you want this.
Speaker 3:You don't have to.
Speaker 2:And, like I said last time, because people might say, well, isn't that being cocky, saying that word? Well, it's really not. I know what I am, because when people say once an addict, always an addict, or once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic, I misunderstood what they meant. I thought it meant I'm always going to be struggling, I'm always going to have to be on guard, I'm after. You know, and and any, any method that that that tries to um shield the drug addict or alcoholic away from the substance is doomed to failure, because we live in a world when it's here right yeah, and and and and.
Speaker 2:so, going back to what I was saying, I work with enough drug addicts and alcoholics every day, either in my place of work or outside of work, to see those guys Because you can be recovered and then you can become unrecovered. Yeah, yeah, I've seen that happen to people, a lot of people. They're in recovery, doing the things they need to do, but then after a few years the job gets more important, yeah, the kids more important, the new girlfriend, all those things that never kept them clean and sober before suddenly become the most important thing.
Speaker 1:so I'm under no illusions that you know that if you don't practice that daily routine, you yourself could become unrecovered as well, definitely and I'll tell you how we become unrecovered.
Speaker 2:I had a chat with someone in an early recovery on the way up here and they were saying why do I still feel like this? And I said you've been using for so long, you've only been clean a few months. And what I said to this person was me, without things I do each day, my natural outlook on life can be quite negative and be can be quite anxious and and can become a little bit irritable. So how we become unrecovered suddenly I don't see those fears that come into my head Suddenly. When that little old lady cuts me up, I beep at her. It's the little pebbles in my shoe. Maybe the relapse is going to happen in four months' time because I'm going to continue. You're starting to move towards it now?
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah, yeah. What are some of the things that you're doing in that daily routine then? Like, obviously is there a bit of advice that you wake up in the morning. You talked to me a little bit about your routine this morning. God up hell, you've helped a few people already. What are the things that you're doing on a day-by-day basis, then that you think is keeping you grounded?
Speaker 2:um, so I wake up very early in the morning, like very early. Yeah, um, I just wake up naturally early. Um, I pray, I meditate, I read some spiritual literature. Sometimes I take a few words and I just meditate on those words. Um, I take people through through the 12 steps. Yeah, um, I speak to a lot of drug addicts and alcoholics every day. This is my work, is not my recovery. Yeah, so I've got to say that because I see a lot of guys in the field relapsing because they think their job is their recovery.
Speaker 1:Someone said it before. They said so many people think that working in recovery is recovery. It's not, and that was something I found really interesting?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really not. It's really not. I think in some ways and I'm going off the subject slightly people who work in recovery have to have even more solid recovery than the average joe out there, because we're around the illness all day. We have to have this force field, because else it will seep into us. Yeah, yeah, because, remember, the illness comes in the attitudes and the behavior and the reactions to life um, I asked her just a quick one.
Speaker 1:I had a friend who worked in recovery. He had a relapse and I should have saw it coming because one of the questions I had someone again as the reason why I do this podcast very inquisitive person. I asked him. I said what do you think when you see people like coming in and in the state they're in and you know the influence that they're under? He went sometimes. He said I feel like a pity for him, but he said there's other days where I think, god, I could do with a bit of that. Wow, and I thought that was an interesting point because, as as you just said, then, working in recovery isn't recovery because the temptation's there. You're hearing about the euphoria that people are experiencing oh, there's a new drug out, it does this. If you're in recovery, that could be triggering, couldn't it?
Speaker 2:Look like we see a lot of people in recovery and working in the field, going back out there, people that have been um, clean and sober for years, not necessarily. Well, there's a difference. Yeah, huge, huge difference, isn't there huge difference?
Speaker 2:absolutely yeah, um, so I. I. I speak to a lot of drug addicts and alcoholics throughout the day. I do a practice where I'm constantly watching out for things like resentments, fear, worry, anxiety, and when those things crop up in my mind, I pray I speak to someone. Do you know what? I was just feeling a bit angry and I get that out. And and another when I say another person and not another person on the same path, because, say, for example, if I got a resentment, I got angry at my, my ex, let's say that if I phoned up someone who wasn't in recovery an old friend they would perhaps because they like me say oh, isn't she horrible to you?
Speaker 2:doesn't she know what you do for the kids and what that does? Is it if it throws petrol in the flames of my resentment? Yeah, so I feel justified in being angry, and that can be the worst place for for a person in recovery. This justified anger because then my eyes start changing again and I start seeing things in a quite a negative way.
Speaker 2:So I do things like that and and I think it's key you know this, this wanting to help others, not not because I have to do it or I think it's part of my recovery, but just just wanting to do it, yeah, um, after work, I'm quite lucky I go into this hotel where they have the spa and and, and I meditate in, in and, and I really notice how people not just drug addicts or alcoholics have a tendency to live life outside in, and what I mean by that is when I meditate in their sauna. People come in and start talking and I spot it because and I'm not looking down because it's me without living the way I live, and they always are moaning about something. Right, it's like oh my God, it's almost Christmas. How am I going to afford this? Or have you seen the American election? And I think and this really, I ain't looking down.
Speaker 3:I used to be like that.
Speaker 2:And I didn't know. I was like that and it's almost like you're in this beautiful surrounding and all you can focus on is what is wrong or? What might cause you a problem, rather than we talked about being in the moment and enjoying the now. So if I'm living life by looking outside, that all comes into me and then into my head.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think there's something with that in the generation we live in, the products of mobile phones, because it's almost like every time I open my phone, something's going on somewhere that is now suddenly affecting my mood in some way. You talked about the election, reading things about that going on somewhere that is now suddenly, and you know, affecting my mood in somewhere. You talked about the election, reading things about that and it's like, oh, and it's oh, this is happening to the economy, oh, god, and then and you're constantly getting this fed to you, whereas previously we never had that unless we sat down and watched the telly you know there was something going about a meme, um, that I saw was before.
Speaker 1:The internet was a place where we escaped, and now the idea is that we come away from the internet to escape, because it's just constantly everywhere. One last thing that I want to ask from yourself is one of my friends who was in recovery said something quite interesting around the idea of addiction being a disease. He went it's not a disease, cancer's a disease. He being a disease. He went it's not a disease, cancer's a disease. He went. You know, addiction's not a disease. And he talked about um. He said people, um, don't choose to have cancer. And I was like I get what. I got what he was saying, but it still didn't sit right with me and I couldn't really verbalize or explain why it didn't sit right to me. As someone with your experience, what's your opinion on the idea of addiction being a disease? Do you agree with that? And two, how would you sort of counter that argument when people talk about comparing it to something like?
Speaker 2:cancer. Yeah, I think it's an illness. Yeah, and you understand, you understand his position. Yeah, because on the outside you've got people robbing, stealing, you know, causing havoc on whatever straining to society, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And again it's easy to point the finger and say look at these sort of people.
Speaker 1:Well, I think what was interesting about that one? He's the one that's in recovery from cocaine addiction Right, but it was me. That one that's in recovery from cocaine addiction Right, but it was me that I'm not in recovery, but I'm the one who was like this doesn't sit right. So look, that's what made it even more confusing.
Speaker 2:Well, you know what that is those cocaine addicts looking down at the heroin addicts.
Speaker 3:It's interesting though it is, it is the hierarchy within the drug use. We can laugh at it, but there is, there is that, yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, it's like, well, I'm not that bad. Yeah, but what about your friends and family that are still as worried about you as they are the heroin addict? But I guess, going back to the question with, say, a cancer sufferer, no one's getting down on them?
Speaker 2:yeah, no one's saying you've got cancer, pull yourself together. You made a choice and we understand why they do that with drug addicts and alcoholics? Because because we cause havoc in people's lives and they don't understand why. And and sometimes if you'd ask the drug addict and alcoholic why do you keep on doing this, they would say I don't know. Yeah, now are you really telling me someone chooses to drink themselves to death? Are you really saying, like I've worked with guys over the years, the doctor has said if you continue drinking, you will die. If you continue, you'll die. And they haven't been able to stay away.
Speaker 2:These are people with children, families, loved ones. Are you telling me they've chosen? Or they couldn't not drink. Now, of course, when we first pick up that first drink or that first drug, we're choosing yeah, yeah. But then I think we cross an invisible line and this illness has got us. It's like our master. When it comes calling, I can't not go to it Because, look, let's think about it, you know those addicts and alcoholics who get clean and sober and they're a few years down the line now in jobs et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2:They're all able, intelligent, lovely people. If you saw them a few years ago, you're telling me those guys chose to burn their lives to the ground, chose to sit in crack houses nodding out, selling their bodies, et cetera, et cetera. Or was it this just illness? They had no power over stopping? Because if they weren't powerless, why didn't they just stop?
Speaker 1:Young, thank you so much for coming on. I've just got a few questions that I'm going to ask. I'm just going to try and find them actually, because there should be some. So let's end all our podcasts with these questions and nothing related to what we've spoken about so far, Just some quickfire questions. What's your favourite word?
Speaker 3:It always throws people off when we go into everything we've spoken about.
Speaker 1:And then we come into this my favourite word, recovered, least favourite word Triggers.
Speaker 2:Tell me something that excites you, what excites me? The Indian Ocean.
Speaker 1:Nice, tell me something that doesn't excite you. What?
Speaker 2:doesn't excite me. I'm a very excitable person these days. What doesn't excite? Me something where you just go, oh god, just I don't know a middle of the road car.
Speaker 1:I just couldn't think of anything. It sounds boring. I can see how that's not excitable at all. Tell me a sound or noise that you love.
Speaker 2:I love drums and bass.
Speaker 1:Tell me a, a sound or noise that you hate. Duck, quack. What's your favourite curse word? Cunt nice and if you wasn't doing the profession that you do do, what would you like to attempt?
Speaker 2:I might make music again nice young.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for coming on the believing people podcast. You have been absolutely fantastic. Thank you, guys. I love that, and if you've enjoyed this episode of the believing people podcast, we'd love for you to share it with others who might find it meaningful. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode. Leaving a review will help us reach more people and continue challenging stigma around addiction and recovery for additional resources, insights and updates. Explore the links in this episode description and to learn more about our mission.
