Enjoying Life OTR

#67 You’re Already Negotiating—Here’s How to Win More Often

• Cindy Tunstall • Episode 67

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You're already negotiating—whether you realize it or not. Every day, you're making deals, setting terms, and advocating for what you want. Whether it's negotiating pay, home time, freight rates, or just convincing your family where to go on vacation, the skills of negotiation affect every part of your life. The question is—are you using them to your advantage?

In this episode of Enjoying Life OTR, Cindy Tunstall and Brian Wilson sit down with Kenny and Elizabeth Long, trucking industry powerhouses who run a brokerage, a fleet, and know exactly what it takes to negotiate with confidence. And here’s the best part—negotiation isn’t just for certain personality types. It’s a skill anyone can master. Getting out of your comfort zone and improving these strategies will benefit your career, relationships, and everyday interactions.

You'll learn:
✅ How to negotiate higher pay, better loads, and preferred routes
✅ Why who makes the first offer has more power than you think
✅ How to read the other person’s energy and mirror it to build rapport
✅ The #1 mistake drivers make when negotiating—and how to fix it
✅ Simple strategies to make negotiation feel natural (even if it makes you nervous)

Mastering negotiation isn’t about being pushy—it’s about problem-solving, building trust, and confidently advocating for yourself. And in this episode, we’re giving you real-world strategies that work.

🔹 Connect with Kenny & Elizabeth Long:

📢 Challenge: Try just one of these negotiation techniques this week—whether it’s for a raise, a better load, or a family decision. Then come share how it went in the Enjoying Life OTR Facebook group!

🔗 Join the conversation: Enjoying Life OTR Facebook Group

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Enjoying Life OTR—because LIVING WELL is worth the effort. We’re sparking curiosity, adventure, & resilience while honoring drivers and embracing a healthier trucking life. Discover creative life hacks & practical strategies to make the most of your time on the road. Join the movement!Explore, enjoy the food, snap the pic, and share tips on saving money along the way.

This podcast is for new and veteran drivers looking to stay mentally, physically, and financially strong while embracing the freedom of the road. We bring you real stories, expert advice, & practical tools to help you thrive, not just survive, in the trucking life.

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For questions or to be a guest, email our host, Cindy Tunstall at EnjoyingLifeOTR@gmail.com #HealthierTruckers #EnjoyingLifeOTR #TruckerWellness #OTRLife #WorkLifeBalance



Brian Wilson:

Welcome back to Enjoying Life OTR. This is Brian Wilson, your old hand with a new plan. Hey guys, have you ever felt, you know, like you weren't being paid what you're worth, but you actually like everything else about your job? Maybe you didn't think you had any other options other than jumping ship to another company. And, let's face it, that takes time, and in our business, time is money. What if there was another way? What if you could negotiate what you want without losing what matters most? You see, negotiation isn't just for freight rates or high-stakes business deals. It's everywhere.

Brian Wilson:

You ever haggled for home time with your company, pushed for a better bonus. Here's when it hits home with me. You ever worked out family vacation plans. Sometimes that can be a nightmare, but that's all negotiation, and if you're not improving your skills, you might be leaving money or even sanity on the table. So today we're diving into the art of negotiation with two experts who've mastered the game. They own a brokerage, run a fleet and know exactly what it takes to negotiate with confidence, without sounding pushy or burning bridges. Stick around. This episode is going to be packed with real, practical strategies you can start using today.

Cindy Tunstall :

Brian, you nailed it. Negotiation is everywhere, from working out our bonuses to our preferred lanes with dispatch, and even figuring out our bonuses to our preferred lanes with dispatch, and to even figuring out our vacation plans with family. You know we're going to go here, we're going to go there. What time works for everybody? You know, every conversation is an opportunity to advocate for yourself. And here's the deal If you're not improving your negotiation skills, you're settling for less in ways that can impact your relationships, your paycheck and even your sanity. So let's get better at this, starting now. Welcome to Enjoy Life. Otr. My name is Cindy Tunstall and I'm your host.

Cindy Tunstall :

Today's guests are two of my absolute favorite people Kenny and Elizabeth Long. These are two powerhouses in the trucking industry. They own a successful brokerage, they have a fleet of trucks and they both have their CDLs, so they're not just talking the talk, they've actually driven the miles too. Now here's the deal they know just about everything there is to know about the trucking industry for real. They have mentored me. They've helped me with so many oddball, random questions that I needed help with, and they help so many people to thrive in the industry, whether you're a brokerage, a carrier or thinking about getting your MC authority.

Cindy Tunstall :

If you've got questions, they've got answers. But one of the things that I really really admire about these two is their negotiation skills. They're respectful, they're firm and they're so effective, and if there's a way to find a way to make this deal work, they're going to find it, and they do it without sounding super pushy or aggressive, and so I'm so excited to have them on the show to talk about negotiation. Welcome to the show, kenny and Elizabeth Long. I'm so happy to have you here.

Kenny Long:

Great to be here. Thanks for having us.

Cindy Tunstall :

Thank you, Cindy. Well, why don't you do us a little favor? I've kind of given some highlights about your position in the freight transportation industry, but why don't you begin by telling our audience a little bit about your career and how this topic of negotiation resonates with you?

Kenny Long:

Let me get started. I have been in the industry 27 years. I got my CDL back when I was 18 years old. I've never really had a company job per se. I've always been an owner-operator or had my own business in some form or another, whether I was used to another carrier or just running my own authority, and I've been a driver since then.

Kenny Long:

We're currently running our company, patriot Star, and we have a carrier that we started in 2012 and a brokerage that we added to that in 2017. And we did that because we had a customer base that we needed to make sure that we had the coverage, for we didn't always have the trucks in the places that we need them for our customers. So, you know, and that led us into a whole new perspective of the industry. And you know, of course, elizabeth and I doing this together, it's been great because we do have different tactics, different methods about going about the sales and negotiation process, and you know. So having her on my team has been great and we kind of come at it from different angles, and so she really focuses on the broker side and I focus more on the carrier side, but between the two of us we are able to pull it together and make things happen, so it's been great.

Cindy Tunstall :

Well, that's awesome. Y'all make a great team for real. Elizabeth, why don't you tell our audience a little bit about yourself and your career and so that we can get to know you a little bit as well? Sure.

Elizabeth Lo:

So, um, I met Kenny and uh, when I did, I had no idea about the trucking and transportation and logistics industry and uh, because he had a CDL and a truck, he said why don't you get your CDL and we'll go over the road together after we got married. And so he taught me how to drive. So I have my class A CDL. I've been a driver since 2012.

Elizabeth Lo:

And Kenny and I teamed for many years where we got to see the country together and go on a lot of adventures, which we've talked about on a previous episode with you, and we also started to grow our business and as we did, I found out that I really enjoyed talking with our customers and growing those relationships and helping them solve their logistics problems and then working to find good drivers to help me fill those needs when our own trucks can't do it. So, as Kenny said, he's kind of taken over the carrier side and I focused more on the brokerage as a driver to begin with, and understanding that side of the industry and looking for loads and negotiating and you know just the challenges of arriving at shippers and receivers and the issues when you're not given all the details by brokers has really helped me become a better broker when I'm finding trucks and helping to serve my customers.

Cindy Tunstall :

Well, I have so much respect for y'all For one. I've come to y'all for so many questions that I've had, you know, regarding the industry, so many times, especially when I was starting out, and y'all have been a wonderful resource for me and, honestly, for so many people. But we're going to let people know how to get in touch with you so they can follow you on your socials. We'll do that before we wrap up. How to get in touch with you so they can follow you on your socials. We'll do that before we wrap up. And I'm so very grateful for the expertise that you bring to this conversation and this unique perspective that you have from sitting on the carrier side and the broker side. So we're going to be talking specifically about negotiation today and y'all have so much to offer, but I could probably have y'all on the show five or six times a year and get great contact from y'all because you're so knowledgeable, so I'm really grateful that you came on today.

Cindy Tunstall :

But as far as negotiation, I've always told Elizabeth that you know as a carrier, you know her as a broker. She's had loads for me and so I've worked for her in some capacity and we've negotiated many different trips and I always love the way that you negotiate, elizabeth, and I love the way that you do it. You're respectful in your firm. So we're going to get into the nuts and bolts about what I love about your negotiation skills specifically, and I honestly I wish every broker would negotiate the way that you do. But before we get into that the nuts and bolts of things how would y'all define negotiation? Like when we talk about that topic, it's pretty broad and far reaching. So how would you define negotiation?

Kenny Long:

Problem solving, communication. I mean, that sums it up right there. That's the whole negotiation. Everybody comes to the table with a problem to solve, and communicating between two parties is what negotiation is all about.

Elizabeth Lo:

For me. I actually think what Kenny said is great, but I'd like to add that I believe that it's two parties that are coming from different spaces with different ideas of how something should go, and the negotiation is the point where they can get together to find a place where they can both exist and be happy with the outcome and work together.

Cindy Tunstall :

Well, I love both of those definitions. You know I was going to say you know we're coming to common ground without severing the relationships, but honestly, that's not really true, is it? Because sometimes we do need to sever the relationship. So, anyway, but coming to common ground and finding solutions that work for both parties, and I think that's all good. You know, one of the things that I have loved about the way that Elizabeth negotiates we're going to talk about that. I've got a story to tell you. But and I have a lot of quick, great questions for y'all so, um, but one of my favorite stories about Elizabeth is um, I was negotiating a lane.

Cindy Tunstall :

She called me and she said she had a load out of Austin. And at this point she and I had run many trips before and negotiated several different um situations. And so she called me. She goes hey, cindy, I've got this load out of Austin. Where are you? Could you pick this up? Could the schedule work?

Cindy Tunstall :

We talked about that and I was like, yeah, that could work. She was what, what do you need for this one? And I said um, I looked at you know, I was looked at my, you know my deadhead. I had some deadhead that I had to include in my Um. That makes sense from you know where you're sitting. But honestly, I could cover this for a lot less than that.

Cindy Tunstall :

Um, is it really your, your, is that really your best rate? Um, I thought about it for a minute and I was like, uh, yeah, it really is. I really can't do it for less than that. You know I do love working for her, but you know we were to make money Right. So I was like, yeah, I really can't, I can't run it for less than that. She's like okay, no problem, we'll run the next one. I'll talk to you later. Have a great day. You know we hung up no harm, no foul. You know she didn't come up with some big line saying, um, you know, hey, this really matter of factly, very respectfully, Cindy, honestly, I could cover it for less than that. Is that really your best rate? You know it was so great. I'm like instantly become a huge fan of Elizabeth Long.

Elizabeth Lo:

I love that so much. I love that that made an impact on you. It's just something that I try to do when I'm negotiating with any driver and just to be fair and honest, I think that negotiation there needs to be respect in it to have a good negotiation. And I think that carriers we need each other to be able to work effectively, because carriers don't always have the time to go out and do all the sales calls and to manage all of those customer relationships and brokers don't, you know, can't drive all of the trucks that their customers need. So I think that there's a real need for both parties in in the relationship a lot of times, and I I think that you know, just being honest with each other as you're negotiating is a helpful thing.

Cindy Tunstall :

One thing I hear you talk about is mutual respect and, of course, because you're a broker and a carrier, so it's really, you know, natural for you to see value in both sides of you know the negotiation. You know because you have you sit on both sides. But you know, even for me, like I'm a carrier, but I've always seen a great value in what brokers bring to the table. You know cause I you know even I'm not as dependent on brokers as I once was, cause I've developed some relationships and so I'm not using them as much as I was.

Cindy Tunstall :

But for a while, when I started out, I was running, you know, purely running spot market. So I was very dependent on brokers and, like you said I would, I didn't have time to make all the sales calls and establish those relationships in the lanes that I wanted to run. So especially like I might get a really good rate going into a city, but I'm in the city now that I don't really have any connections or relations. So I was dependent on load boards and brokers to find me, you know, good loads coming out, and I was dependent on load boards and brokers to find me good loads coming out and I was happy that they had done that work and that that was an option for me. So one of the things that I think is so important in a discussion about negotiation is having a mutual respect for the other person and being able to see their side of things, and I think that's an important part of this discussion on negotiation. Great place to start. What do you think? I agree 100%.

Elizabeth Lo:

I agree 100%. I couldn't do what I do without having great drivers that I can trust descend into my customer to represent me and help get the job done, help solve the problem for my customer. I couldn't do all the work that I do without my partnership with carriers.

Cindy Tunstall :

Well, I'm going to reframe this and shift gears just a little bit because I want our audience to stay engaged. Even if you're not a owner operator, you're not negotiating freight reins. Negotiation actually affects all of us every day, even a company driver. Think about it like you're negotiating your home time and you're trying to decide I have this appointment but you need me to stay out longer. That's a negotiation. Or even if you're talking with your high school student and you're trying to establish what's a fair curfew at their senior year versus how it was in their junior year. These are all topics of negotiations and I think it's important for us to reframe the way that we think about our negotiation so that we all have a desire to improve our skills. So what would you say about a good way to reframe the way we're thinking about this topic?

Elizabeth Lo:

I think you nailed it when you said that negotiation is something that we all use every day. I mean, I think that negotiation sometimes sounds like a scary word to people and they correlate it with sales and sales and negotiation, but it's not. You know, we've all been negotiating since we were babies and toddlers, and so this is something that is natural and it's something that we need to do in all aspects of our lives.

Kenny Long:

And I think Elizabeth nailed it when she said that she tries to work with the other side. When you're negotiating, you're not the person on the other side of the negotiation table, it's not your company, they're your counterpart. You both have a mutual problem to solve. So if you are looking to get a job and you're trying to negotiate your pay or you negotiate the terms of your agreement with this company, the company needs you as a driver. You need the job. You both have a mutual problem and you need to come together to solve that.

Kenny Long:

So what is the best solution? Right, and both of you have to come up with the best solution for your side and it needs to be a win, win. And that, especially if you are looking for a job where you will have a relationship with this other party long term. It has to be win, win. If you feel that you've lost in the negotiation on day one you are unhappy with your job, happy with your job. If the other side, if you get a company job and you kind of hold them hostage you're the only employee, the only person that's applied and you are their only option and they had no choice but to hire you day one, they will feel that they're not necessarily happy and they're going to be looking for somebody to replace you from day one. But if you go into it and both of you, both sides, have a mutual understanding, you're both comfortable with each other, you have a level of trust with each other, then it will be a win-win for both sides and everybody's happy long term and it'll be a long-term relationship that can last.

Elizabeth Lo:

I think you said that really well, kenny, and I just want to go back, cindy, just to what you had said about how you enjoyed the way I negotiated with you. What you'd said about how you enjoyed the way I negotiated with you, and I think that um Kenny really expressed why that worked so well, because we are not always going to come to an agreement every single time. I'm not always going to be able to pay you what you want, and you know you're not always going to be able to do it for the price that I would love for you to be able to do it for and for me to get one of my favorite carriers on the job. But if we can treat each other with respect and allow each other to express what we really need and know when there's times that we can connect and negotiate to an outcome where we work together or negotiate to an outcome of. We're going to have to go our separate ways on this one, but we will be back to talk on the next deal.

Cindy Tunstall :

I think that's so important. I don't know how. I have a sales background so I've always been a little bit interested in negotiation and I've had the pleasure of working with some people that were just really masters at negotiation, where I was like, oh my gosh, I don't even know how you got that person to agree to do that and it was so fascinating to me because it was done with such finesse and so much respect and they brought that other person on board to the vision and you know, they just made everybody want to go in that direction and go, yeah, let's do this. I was like, wow, it's just fascinating.

Cindy Tunstall :

So you know, when I was early on in my career in trucking and I was working the spot market, I somehow just realized that you know, maybe this load is not going to work out and but I know that this broker has other loads. You know, like maybe this one. You know they were rejecting my offer and you know, but they had other freight, you know. So like maybe this one was just a little low paying deal, a partial or something, and they really didn't have a lot of money in it. But I wanted to still maintain that relationship because I knew that there were other possibilities, and I needed that door to stay open. Whether you're negotiating your salary or a new position with a job, rejecting an offer doesn't have to be ugly. We can still keep those doors open, and I think it's important part of negotiation coming to some mutual understanding that we still could have a future together, and I'm really thankful that in my career, elizabeth, that you modeled that for me really well, and so I'm really grateful for that.

Elizabeth Lo:

I'm so glad that you and I can work together like that, on the same page, on the same level. That it it makes me very happy. There's nothing that makes me more sad and frustrated is when I'm negotiating with a driver or a carrier and they get mad. You know they get mad or upset, or insulted, you know. Or. Or if I'm on the carrier side and as I'm a driver and I'm trying to negotiate and offer someone a rate, then they hang up on me or are rude. That stuff just infuriates me. There's no need for that in the negotiation. Yeah, yeah.

Kenny Long:

And there are different levels of negotiation as well. I mean, if you are a driver trying to get that job, that will hopefully be your career and maybe you retire from this company. It needs to be a long-term relationship. This is not a transactional negotiation, right? So that relationship is more important necessarily than the individual details, the rate that you might get, the price that they're willing to pay that could maybe be negotiated more down the road. The price, the rate that's not always the most important thing to negotiate, especially in a long-term relationship.

Kenny Long:

When you're dealing with getting a job, it's a long-term. When you're dealing with a broker for a one-time load, that's a transactional relationship. Now you still want to maintain the long-term relationship for the broker to do other loads in the future, but that one load is transactional. If it doesn't work for this one load, that doesn't mean you might not be able to work with them later on. So there are different techniques and different ways to approach different types of negotiation but in any case you always want that win-win outcome because you want both sides to be happy and if both sides get what they want or are agreeable to, then both sides walk away with a sense of trust for that next transaction or the long-term relationship.

Cindy Tunstall :

I think talking about the win-win, even just that simple mindset shift, is important, you know, because you could tell a lot of people they don't come into the conversation with that as their goal. You know they have that idea that they're going to crush you. And you can tell, and it just it feels so adversarial and aggressive and hostile. And you know, rather than having the mindset, hey, we have a common problem, we want to solve style. And you know, rather than having the mindset, hey, we have a common problem, we want to solve and I'm willing to compromise on this and this and this and come to terms that we can agree with. So I think even just having that mindset shift is important to coming at it as a win-win and you can really tell the way. You know people think about the goal of negotiation while they're talking in their level of aggression and it's just not all necessary.

Kenny Long:

Elizabeth and I used to go to a lot of trucking industry events and conferences and things and you know we had talked a lot about negotiation in those and I remember we were standing out in the parking lot, we kind of after hours, you know, just kind of doing mingling with other people. All the trucks are out there and everybody's know showing off their equipment, everything, but this one guy particular was trying to negotiate with a broker on the load and he's standing there, his fits are quenched. I mean he was even punching the side of his trailer because he was just. That was the attitude that he had. He is going to win and this, this broker, is not going to get the best of him. He is going to win or he's not working with this guy and I've seen it so many times where the broker will remember that and the next time you go to them they won't work with you. Like I said, if you are trying to get that long-term job and you hold them hostage somehow and you demand more than they necessarily are willing, they will be looking for your replacement on day one. You don't want to go in there with the attitude of I must win everything. There will be future opportunities, even in working with a broker on a transactional basis. Brokers have a lot of other loads that you may want to work with and they will remember you. Your employer, your potential prospective employer, will remember how you acted when you negotiated your initial job terms.

Kenny Long:

Right and, and everything is negotiable. Again. It's not just price and rate and rate of pay, whatever it's, it's everything. It's appointment times, it's scheduling, it's, um, if you get home time, uh, if you're trying to get your job, it might be. You know how long do I need to be away from the house? You know how many days on the road versus how many days at home, that type of thing, all of that stuff which may be a trade-off to how much pay you get. I know there are companies that get drivers home every single night. They don't pay nearly as much as the drivers that are out on the road, companies that send drivers out for six months at a time. It's a whole different tradeoff and that's part of the negotiation process. Bring all of those details in and negotiate all of the terms, and then you want to talk about price.

Cindy Tunstall :

Well, what are some ways that you have really strong relational skills, that you have really strong relational skills and really early on. You and I have talked about this in the past, about building relationships in the very beginning of the conversation. So how do you find out? Are there tips or techniques, ways to find out what's really important to the other person versus your values, and how you're going to process these things really practically? Can you give us some tips about that?

Kenny Long:

Yeah, 100%. I mean definitely. There are ways to do that. The number one, the biggest thing, is always ask open-ended questions and get the other side, your counterpart in the negotiation, to elaborate as much as possible. And what I mean by that is if you ask, how much does this load weigh? That's not open-ended. That's well, this load weighs 40,000 pounds. There's no elaboration. You don't get any information off of that, right. But if you ask, can you please give me more details, well, now you're going to hear, yeah, this driver just fell off. It's 40,000 pounds. I had a hard time covering it, you know.

Kenny Long:

And you start to hear the desperation in their voice. You start to hear the details of why they're trying to cover it or why it's been, you know, on the load board for three days or what you know. All these different things are coming out because you asked an open-ended question and now you have more information to use to build that relationship. Because, again, you're trying to solve a problem, but you need to know what the problem is. You have to identify the problem first.

Kenny Long:

And to identify the problem you have to ask a lot of questions and open-ended questions and, of course, if there are specific details that you need that you're drilling into, you can ask those specific questions, but when you're on the information, information gathering uh portion of this quest, right, you need to ask just those open-ended um questions or phrases to try to get them to elaborate more. One another way to do that is to just kind of mirror them. You know they say something, you repeat it back to them and they'll just elaborate more. You know, this load weighs 40,000 pounds. Oh, it's 40,000 pounds. Yeah, the last guy couldn't sail that much, so now we're looking for another truck, right? So you just ask those questions and try to follow up, get them to give as much information as possible.

Cindy Tunstall :

I hear two things in what you're saying. You know asking the open-ended questions, which I think is such a valuable tip, and honestly, that takes practice. It's really not a comfortable way of normal communication unless you have a sales background. So it takes some practice and there are some resources where you could practice and learn to do that. But I also hear you saying that you're listening to their response because they're telling us what their needs are. You know, if you're talking to your high school student about curfew time and you know you're talking, you're listening to what they're saying is important to them, and then you're also communicating. You know what your needs are as well.

Cindy Tunstall :

So you're asking open-ended questions, you're listening to responses. So how are you going to respond next? So you've kind of gotten an idea of what their most important thing is. You know, like, say, the, it's the time. You know it's an urgency because it's been sitting on the dock. You know they had a driver drop off and they just need to get this picked up. So you realize now what their hotspot is. So what's the response from there? So you've got a great piece of information. How do you adjust and begin that negotiation process once you've realized what's most important to them?

Kenny Long:

Well, keep in mind that their answer, their specific words, is one part of this, but also their attitude and their frustration, that they might express or nonchalant, I don't care attitude that gives you a sense of how important this is to them, right? How important is it to them that, yeah, this load has been on the load board for three days? They just told you it's been there, but they're like, yeah, it's been like three days, or it's been there for three days. I'm struggling to get this moved. Right, it's a whole different piece of information based on how they give it to you. Okay, so you use that as well. And now you understand more about the position that they're in and how important those problems are to them. So you respond with again you want to provide a solution. So well, I know it's been there for three days. My truck is there empty right now. I have an instant solution. You've been struggling for three days. My truck is there empty right now. I'd have an instant solution. You've been struggling for three days to get a move. I can hear the desperation in your voice that you've been struggling. I have an instant solution done right now.

Kenny Long:

Right, and if you can provide a good answer, a good solution to their problem, because their problem is to get the load moved, but they have other, you know sub problems for a stay, right. So they have this load to move, but they also have an urgency to it. Or they have a problem like the load is too heavy for most trucks or, you know, maybe it's only one pallet, right? And so these guys have 53-foot trailers that don't want to take just one pallet. They think that they'll be more profitable with a whole 45 45,000 pound trailer load versus this 200 pound crate. Okay, well, I will offer my services to you. I have a truck right now and, yeah, I have a 53 foot trailer, or I have a box truck, whatever it is, and I am the perfect solution for what you have and I can provide that for you. You know, like doctors will say you know, take two of these, call me in the morning, right, this is what you do. This is, this is the solution. You take my truck. I am the perfect solution to solve that problem. And here is why right. But you respond to them in kind.

Kenny Long:

So if they have a sense of urgency, you need to respond with a sense of urgency like oh, I completely understand, I'm ready right now. We can make this happen, or I'm only two hours away. I mean, whatever the case may be, maybe you're not going to be empty until this afternoon. They need to truck right now. I'm empty this afternoon, but I'll be. I'll have fresh hours and I can get it done. I'll have it there first thing tomorrow morning, right, but notice what I'm saying and how I'm saying it. I'm saying it quick. I'm saying it quick. I'm saying it fast because I'm trying to mirror their attitude as well. Right, if they say it's been a little more than three days, I'm running, I've got 10 calls I've got to make. I got to get this done. You don't want to respond with? Well, let me think about it. I might be able to get it done later, because that's not the urgency that they want. They want urgency with everything.

Cindy Tunstall :

Right, so we provide that solution for them. Okay, so just to recap, because you had so many jewels in there and I don't want to miss something. So what I hear you're saying is that you're asking open-ended questions and you're listening for their response and then you're responding in a way that tells the other person I hear what your problem is, and that you're able to repeat back to them and match their urgency or their level of laid-backness, because you know, whatever the deal is, you're matching that energy, so to speak. So what you're really saying is that this is a way of building rapport. So you let that other person say I see you, I hear your problem, I have the solution. And before you start doing all that, before you start asking what you need because you're saying I see what's important to you, that you feel seen and heard and understood, before we start talking about money, for example, would you say that's a good recap?

Kenny Long:

Absolutely, and that's called mirroring right that, matching their tone, matching their urgency and all that. And that's called mirroring right that, matching their tone, matching their urgency and all that, and that's called mirroring. You want to be like they are and I can take to kind of learn where you fall on that, but the key is to kind of recognize where the other side is on that and match it. There are, you know, there are four main categories. You have the doers, which are always that urgent attitude. You have the talkers, which Elizabeth, kind of falls into the talker category. She, you know well, well, she'll ask you how your day is going, ask how your kids are, ask all that before she even talks about a load, right. And your stinkers, which are the ones that want every little detail. They're going to ask all those very, very specific questions. And then you have your um, they call them guardians, which are the ones that will give you their shirt off their back to make you happy, right, and different business models will attract those people. Brokers are rarely guardians, to be honest, because brokers are more sales-driven, which are usually more doers and talkers, more doers and talkers. So if you go in and you are and I recommend that you take one of these tests.

Kenny Long:

Anybody that's listening take the personality test.

Kenny Long:

One of them is called the Myers-Briggs personality test evaluation test.

Kenny Long:

Anyway, if you take that test and you kind of learn where you are at on that scale, if you find out that you are a thinker or you are a guardian and you go off and you are facing a doer or a talker, you're at a disadvantage because they do and you will not feel comfortable talking to them, right? So, um, you want to try to match what they are and come out of your own shell to try to uh be on the same level ground as them. It will make them feel more comfortable. It'll also make them feel like they have their equal footing with you and they don't have the leverage over you. Again, like I said before, if they come out and they've got that sense of urgency and they want to go, go, go, they are usually a doer, right? They have that driven uh mentality of get it done and they are usually the ones that, like elizabeth said, they take it or leave it as you say, yes or no, they just hang up, they don't need to talk about it.

Kenny Long:

They don't care about the details yes or no done but if you need to respond with quick yes or no questions, be on the fly. But if you respond with slow drawn, I need more details on this and I understand. If you have that, they're more than likely going to hang up on you or you will necessarily get what you'd like out of the negotiation. So, again, that's nearing, nearing their attitude, nearing their questions, understanding the problem and trying to match them on their ground.

Cindy Tunstall :

I think you said some really important things there and I think it helps me understand why some people really hate negotiation because they're having to step out of their own comfort zone and match the other person's vibe and it feels so uncomfortable and unnatural. Honestly, it's just not the preferred way that we really want to do Right? So you're saying, to be an effective negotiator, you have to be willing to do that just a little bit.

Kenny Long:

Absolutely. You have to be willing and you have to be able, and I will say that this is more of a Western civilization problem. In the United States, canada, even England, europe, we don't negotiate. We expect to walk into a grocery store. There is a price sticker on the item we want. That's the price we pay. We take it to the front counter and we just pay whatever they tell us. We don't negotiate on anything.

Kenny Long:

I was in the military. I went to the Middle East. The Middle East, not like that at all. They'll have these bazaars set up, everybody's selling stuff. They have stores and markets just like we have here. You walk in, there is no price. What do I pay for this? And sometimes they'll get offended if you ask them because they expect you to negotiate right.

Kenny Long:

Here's a Monty Python clip that I've shared before that illustrates this. Well, the guy walks up. He's like how much for this thing? Well, it'll be 50 shekels. Okay, here you go. No, you have to negotiate, you have to haggle right, and in other cultures that is not just kind of how it's done, it's expected and people get offended if you don't. But here, somehow, it's the other way around. We are uncomfortable trying to haggle with people trying to negotiate and it's really just a mindset issue, right? I've heard people say that it's human nature, but it's not human nature, because you see different cultures do it differently. It's not a human nature thing, it's a cultural thing and it's a mindset issue. So you can overcome this with practice.

Cindy Tunstall :

Well, I love that and I think it's such a great reminder because it doesn't come naturally and it is a skill and it's something that we can learn, and we are going to talk at the end about some ways that we can improve our negotiation skills and offer some resources, but I do want to talk about some more nuts and bolts about negotiation.

Cindy Tunstall :

So I have a question. So you've asked the open-ended question. They've shared their pain points, you've mirrored back to them and now it's time for you to start talking about the actual deal. Do you think it's best that you make the first offer, or should you let the other person offer first? And why do you say so?

Kenny Long:

Elizabeth, you want to take this one? Okay, I got it. So I think it depends on what your mission is on that particular call, okay. So if you are finding a mission and you are trying to find out, you know when we're working, we have our broker hat on. We need to find out what we will need to pay for trucks, right, I will call various trucks and get quote, and we get bids from customers. You know, we've got them on our desk right now for next October, right? So 10 months out from now, and I will need to know what is that going to take. So we have some trusted carriers that we work with and we've asked three or four different people what would you bid on this? And they're all within a few hundred dollars one way or the other, and so that gives us a ballpark of where we need to be.

Kenny Long:

Now, when I go to book a load with a truck, as a broker, I want to be the first to put the number out. And, as a broker, I want to be the first to put the number out. As a broker, I want to be the first to put a number out, why? Because I will get closer to the price that I want. So, as a carrier, you should want to put the first number out, and I know most of your listeners are on the carrier side of this. You should be willing to put the first number. And this is probably the most disadvantaged part of the negotiation for carriers is they will not or are unable to, or don't have the knowledge or confidence to put the first number out, and it's a process called anchoring, and it's a proven fact that the first person to drop an anchor will get closer to the number. And the problem that people have the reason that they're uncomfortable with it and I know this is another thing that you wanted to touch on, cindy is called fear of missing out, fomo. Right, People are afraid to put that first number out because they're afraid what if I leave money on the table? And if you put the first number out and they agree to your number? You didn't leave anything on the table, right? You got exactly what you asked for. You got what you wanted. Did the program have more money in it? The customer could have paid more, maybe, but you left nothing on the table. You got what you asked for, right?

Kenny Long:

I think you have to stop comparing your business to what everybody else is doing. I have some good friends that they rely on the analytics from the load boards that say what the average rates are, and that's the only thing they use to set their rates. They have no idea what they need to run from point A to point B. They base it entirely on the averages and, as a broker, I look at the averages because, yes, this is what trucks are charging roughly on this lane. This is.

Kenny Long:

You don't expect to pay a truck but as a carrier, that should not even be parkways and you should have your numbers. You should know the market, you should know what they're and what you're capable of doing. Right, you need to be competitive, but if you're in a market and it's, you know, paying a dollar a mile, should you offer a dollar a mile to be competitive? That's something that you have to look at and you know goes to more than just the rate.

Kenny Long:

I've been in dollar a mile markets before and I've gotten two or three times more than that because I negotiated other terms, right. Um, yeah, I remember there was one that elizabeth had uh, she negotiated and it had been on the load board multiple days and had special requirements drop trailer and different things and they wanted to pay, you know, average rates or below average rates. But because it had all these other details of the time frame involved and special requirements that it needed all of those, we convinced the customer that, yes, you pay more and we ended up getting two or three times the average rate was. But that was because we come to the table with a solution and it's not just based on price.

Cindy Tunstall :

Well, going back to the first offer, I mean this applies even when you're negotiating your salary. You know you're coming to your company and you know maybe, for example, you were hired in at a lower rate because you had, you know, a less experienced driver, but now you've been driving for a couple of years, you've got a great safety record and you really feel like you should be earning more, like your peers who have a little bit more experience. So now I'm in the position I can ask for more money. So what you're talking about is you know, give that first offer, say to them you know they might come to you and go hey, what do you have in mind? You know you should be willing to ask for, and you know to say it respectfully, because you have enough relational equity built in. You know because you've been talking about what their needs are and you've been saying I acknowledge that. You know safety is important to you and you know staying out and wouldn't I need to stay out is important to you and you've done all of these things to build that relational equity. So now you can ask for what you need. You know you have past your expectations. You take great care of their equipment and you know you've been able to solve problems as they come up over the fly. So you have something you know and mention those things, you know, bring those things up in the conversation.

Cindy Tunstall :

But you know, even with that situation in mind, you need to be willing to respectfully and boldly ask for what you need. And you know it is scary to put out that first offer because there's always that risk of rejection and you know, nobody likes that feeling. But we need to be mindful that that's what's. What's the problem is that you know that feeling of being rejection, just know that that's what it is going in and still be willing to fight through those, um, those feelings of um, you know that that might happen and just still be willing to make that first offer and, um, I think that's so important to um, just put that out there and just call it what it is, what the real problem is, why you're not willing to make that first offer and then to think it through and have a plan and a strategy about why you're justified in asking for what you need and what you want to make the deal work for you.

Elizabeth Lo:

I think you have some really good points with that, cindy. No-transcript. Or they ask for a raise and they completely get shut down. Um, and I think that the important thing when you're going into negotiation is, each time you're going into negotiation, start with a fresh mindset. Try and wipe out your previous um, uh, your previous rejections from your mind and go into it with a fresh set of eyes. And, you know, don't let those preconceived ideas of how this is going to go creep back in. And, you know, start this fresh because every situation is different.

Cindy Tunstall :

Well, I think that has a far-reaching application too. I mean, I even think about I hear these stories from drivers, you know, they've been out for weeks and they get home and they just want to chill and veg and their spouse has a big, you know, list of honey do's that they want to for them to accomplish when they get in. And maybe that conversation didn't go well last time. You had it, you know, but really is a negotiation right? So I mean, you could just start with a fresh conversation and start with a fresh experience with that conversation. And, you know, keep a mindset that you know this one is different. It's a I don't it doesn't have to be like it was last time, but just work from a different perspective this time. You know, and I also think about, you know, there's so much emotions that we have thinking about negotiation. I hadn't really thought that we were talking about this, but you know the feeling of rejection but also the fear of missing out. I think about that fear of missing out.

Cindy Tunstall :

I've been negotiating on a load and maybe I've been sitting in an area and I keep bidding rather aggressively and keep getting my rate gets shot down, shot down, shot down, and then all of a sudden, there's a load that pops up on the load board and it's going exactly where I am. The load's ready, my truck is empty. You know, this is a perfect load for me. I don't want to miss this, and I can feel because I've had all that. You know, my offers have been rejected. My tendency in that and I've seen myself do this many times is that I will lower my rate. This is a load that I want. I do not want to miss this load.

Cindy Tunstall :

So I make an offer and, you know, maybe my load is even accepted and they take the offer that I give them and I still feel that struggle, that fear of missing out. So they gave me exactly what I wanted and I find myself oh, I left money on the table, they took the offer too quickly and I didn't even try to see what their you know what their values were and what you know what their values were and what you know things were important to them, what kind of timeframe they were on, and I still feel like I missed out, even though I got exactly what I wanted. So I think being aware of how our emotional responses are being triggered while we're negotiating is an important part of this conversation. So both fear of rejection, fear of missing out or whatever it is that we need to go into each conversation fresh. So that's a really great point and very helpful mindset, I think.

Kenny Long:

Absolutely, and the worst I can say is no. If you throw out a number, they could say no, but negotiation is part of the bigger sales process. It's one of many steps and as a salesperson you learn that every no is an opportunity to find a yes right. So when somebody tells you no, you figure out why no, the price is too high, no, you're not qualified. No, you haven't been on the job long enough. Whatever it is, you point out why Okay so. But if you set the anchor and say just use round numbers, you're making 50 cents a mile. You want to be at 60. Boss, I'd like to be at 60 cents a mile. How can I make that happen? Right Now, you put the ball in their court and remember I said how can I make that happen? They have to explain to you and it's human nature to respond to that what you need to do to make that happen. Well, if you've been here another six months, we'll look at it. If you've done this many loads, we'll bump you up to 55, and then another year, we'll get you to 60. Well, now you've got that information in your back pocket. But you made the offer. You threw out the number. The anchor of this is what I want. This is what I need. How do I get it there Right? And you can do the same thing if you're negotiating on the load. I need $2,000. How do we make this happen, right? And oh, that's just way out of our rate. But what do we need to do to get there Right? What do you need special equipment? You Do you need special equipment, do you need scheduling? And I completely understand, like you and Elizabeth have been talking about before, if we're just not the right truck for the job, that's fine too. But I'm giving an offer. How do we make this happen? How can we get the load moved? How can we make this $2,000 happen? That's what it takes.

Kenny Long:

Maybe you need to go back to your customer and talk to them about why we are the best truck for their job, about why we are the best truck for their job. And I will tell you, as a broker, we do not always hire the cheapest truck, which is the common theme in the industry. Everybody thinks brokers are just looking for the cheapest truck. We absolutely get lower prices. Cindy, I know we've had opportunities where we have hired you and paid you more than we could have hired off the spot market. If we posted on a a load board because we have a level of trust with you and we know that you'll get the job done and we don't have to chase you down afterwards.

Kenny Long:

Right, we will pay more for certain reasons. Trust, you have special equipment, you have the best truck, you're, you're closer to it than somebody else, whatever it is. So it's throwing out the first number and setting an anchor, asking how to get there. If you get a no, you learn why and you can move on. And this kind of goes back to you know, if you're on a fact-finding mission or if you're really trying to book the load or you just have to get the truck moving, or whatever it is, I always try to get the other person to give the rate first if I'm on a fact-finding mission, but when I am actually ready to pull the trigger on something, I always want to give the rate to set the table, set the anchor.

Cindy Tunstall :

Okay, that's good. So there are times when it's beneficial to let the other person make the first offer.

Kenny Long:

Absolutely, just because it's a way to get more information and you might ask them. You know the reasons why or how they justify it. And again, before I book a load for one of my trucks, I try to make it a rule of mine unless I get a grand slam offer on the very first load, I try to call at least 10 or 12 brokers and I never book a load on the first call again unless it's a grand slam and I know it's a grand slam. Um, I never book a call in the first load or book a load on the first call. I always call 10 or 12 just because I first want to do that fax writing mission.

Kenny Long:

Yeah, I'll look at the load board, see what's listed. I call 10 or 12 of them. Then I might call some back and give another offer or what have you. But I don't like to just call and book whatever. It is real quick and I know the industry is kind of shifting to the quick to accept type load boards and there's no negotiation and that is a race to the bottom In my it takes all of the quality out of the service and focus only on quantity or cheapest price. And the cheapest price is not always the best solution, so it's important to understand again where you're at in the stage of negotiation.

Cindy Tunstall :

That's so good. Just even listening to you, I still have so much to learn about negotiation. What would you say are some good ways that people could improve their negotiation skills? Say, maybe this is a new topic for somebody and they're really just starting to see a need for improvement. Where could they begin?

Kenny Long:

First of all is practice, the more you can practice, even if you do some role-playing practice with people. If you're a carrier, you've got a couple of other carrier friends and one of you pretends you're a broker and starts going back and forth with some of the rejections that you've had and do that. The other thing, as a driver, you have 11 hours a day on the road, 14 hours a day in the truck that you're working. That's a lot of windshield time with nothing to do but listen, right. So there are a lot of audio books and when you shut down for the night, if you prefer to read it on paper, there are a lot of print books. So that is an excellent way. And let me give you two great books right off the bat. I wrote these down on my paper because I want to make sure that I put these out there.

Kenny Long:

How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie is probably the number one book that I'd recommend everybody read. I think this should be required reading in school, like in high school. Everybody should read this. This book was written in the 1930s and just about every self-help book about any aspect of your life, be it money management or attitude or negotiation or anything, just about everything since has been just an expansion of one of the topics in that book. How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie, best book ever written.

Cindy Tunstall :

Great book.

Kenny Long:

And the next book that I would say really applies to trucking, because trucking is very transactional, with the negotiations every day on different loads or what have you, and it also touches on the long-term relationships as well. It's called Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss, and Chris Voss was an FBI negotiator, like a hostage negotiator like you see in the movies, right? So very much like a one-time thing, but it's called Never Split the Difference. He says it in the book If you're in a hostage negotiation you can't say you know, there's four hostages, give me two, you take two, we'll call it a day, right, it's all or nothing. Right, you have to get everything that you're asking for. So you know Never Slip the Difference is a great one as well, because it's very transactional based. It has a lot of great information about that. So listening to those books, reading those books another great way to improve that. And there are thousands and thousands of other books out there, but those are the two that are on the top of my list.

Cindy Tunstall :

I love both of those books and I'm a big fan of both, and I totally agree with what you said. The other one that I would add is Negotiation Made Simple. That's one that I've listened to recently. I don't have the author in front of me, but maybe I'll put that in the show notes. But yeah, both are great reads. Chris Voss's book is so good and he's a great storyteller. He has so many great examples of some really high-stakes negotiation and I have a really. His teaching on negotiation is really practical. So I'm a big fan of both of those books.

Cindy Tunstall :

The other thing that I would think, too, is when we take time to consider what happens when I negotiate.

Cindy Tunstall :

So, like I said, I'm learning from each experience, and so I'll make a study of what I did well in negotiation and I study and think about what.

Cindy Tunstall :

Well, when somebody was negotiating with me, like when I'm talking to a broker or a car salesman is a great example. Both of these individuals do negotiations for a living and all different levels of skill in those positions. But when I watch somebody who does negotiation really well they negotiate all the time and I want to study what they're doing, what works well on me and also paying attention to what people did or said that actually made me shut down in my negotiation in the process. So you know, learning from what didn't work well, you know, like they made that comment or yeah, when they made that approach, then I knew that the situation wasn't going to work well and it shut it down. So I definitely think it's important to you know to read and to study because I do those things as well but also to think back every time I've had a negotiation what I did well there, what didn't work, what did well, what they said that worked well on me, and just observing Definitely.

Kenny Long:

I actually have a whole class on negotiation that I teach in seminars and stuff. But there's three basic kind of headings for negotiation and there's concepts, techniques and tactics, right, and concepts is the overall big picture of like why are we negotiating? You know negotiation is part of the sales process, communication and problem solving. You know negotiation is is part of the sales process, communication and problem solving. And then there's the techniques, which is kind of setting the table for how the the whole negotiation will go. And then there's tactics. It's really like the hand-to-hand and kind of gets more into haggling. And most books like how to win friends and influence people. That is the concepts, that is the big picture stuff. And then there are books that focus really on individual Like you take one chapter out of that how to win friends and influence people and you write an entire book on it and it's either going to fall under the techniques or the tactics heading. Most books that you read are going to be this is just tactics or this is just techniques, and I think people will look at some of this or they'll see people negotiate different ways and they only catch one part of this right and they lose the bigger picture.

Kenny Long:

One point I always like to make is haggling is not negotiation. Haggling comes after negotiation. It's a completely separate part of that process and if you are haggling, negotiation is done. You can't really negotiate anymore. When it comes down to haggling back and forth over numbers, I could set two computers, one to start at $1, one to start at $1,000. They're going to go back and forth until they meet at roughly $500. And it happens the same way every single time that's haggling there's no negotiation there. And it happens the same way every single time that's haggling there's no negotiation, there's no give and take, there's no communication, and you know so. Try to focus on the bigger picture, set the table, mirror the other side, learn the problems, identify, you know, ask the open-ended questions.

Kenny Long:

Sometimes you have to create the problem as well in this. If you've ever watched like a late night, you know midnight 1am you turn on the TV and then Ronco is on there and he's got some super duper special countertop oven that slices and dices and the whole thing. And it's like you turn this on and you see like what the heck is that thing? I don't want that thing on my counter, but somehow you're stuck to this commercial. You can't change the channel. And 30 minutes later you've already ordered three of them. I want to get one free. And you ordered one for your neighbor, right, because they've created the problem. You didn't even know you needed this when you first started looking at it. You didn't even you wouldn't even consider it. But somehow, during this commercial they've shown you all the great features and all the things that it can do. And it's like now you're thinking how did I ever live without this thing? I need it, right? You've created a problem or you've helped the other side identify the problem.

Kenny Long:

So sometimes there's a bit of that that needs to happen in the negotiation and that is part of the sales side. So this whole process kind of starts with, you know, the marketing of your business, the first contact, which might be a cold call or a referral. Then you get into the ask of will you give me this load for this price? Then the negotiation of the details of the scheduling and so forth. Once all that's done, now you start haggling. That's the flow of how it works. Once you get to the very end, once somebody throws a dollar amount out there, once you've got $1,000 for this load, nothing else matters but the money, because anything else you negotiate on well what if I do this time or that time? Now you've already got the money out there. So everything is tied to a dollar value and anything you try to change will change that value. So you always want to talk about money last, and because that haggling has to come last.

Cindy Tunstall :

Okay, that's a great tip because it really does shut down a part of the negotiation process, doesn't it? When you're just, it becomes solely focused on money. So that's a great tip. Thank you for that. Okay, so before we hop off, I feel, like you know, I have to ask because you know, I think there's carriers out there listing drivers and now that we have a broker in the hot seat, I'd really love to hear what it takes for a carrier to be a preferred carrier of yours. So obviously, money comes into play. You know we all want to make the most money that we can on each of our loads, but I mean you had even mentioned that there's times that it's not just about price, that you know paying for a carrier is worth that. What does it take for a carrier to move themselves into that position to be considered a preferred carrier and somebody that you really want to try to work with as much as possible? Would you mind sharing those things with our audience?

Elizabeth Lo:

Absolutely so. I actually wanted to mention a book that I'm reading right now. I've read it before and I'm reading it again. It's called Speed of Trust by Stephen Covey, and trust is probably the most important thing that I'm looking for when I'm building a relationship with a driver or a carrier to move forward and continue to work with them. And I want to mention that when you negotiate the first time and you deliver on what you say you're going to do and you prove yourself to be trustworthy, the negotiations start to get easier the next time and subsequent times as you continue to prove who you are. And that is super important to make sure that you're acting with integrity and providing the service that you say you're going to do, because you don't want to have to go into a hard negotiation every time.

Elizabeth Lo:

And what this book talks about is how decisions can be made a lot faster when both parties are able to trust each other. And if I call a driver and I need a load to be moved and they give me a price and it's somewhat in line with what I was expecting to pay maybe it's a little bit more, but I know that I can trust them to get the job done, you might not need to actually negotiate with them very hard. You know we might just be able to move forward and let's just get it done, you know, and that is valuable to both of us. So some of the things that I look for to help build that trust with drivers are answering the phone when I call, doing what they say they're going to do as far as showing up at the particular time that we've agreed on, letting me know if they run into a delay, sending pictures of the freight and showing how it's been secured.

Kenny Long:

Making a good impression with the customer.

Elizabeth Lo:

Yes, yeah, making sure that their equipment is in good order, it's clean, it's presentable, they look clean and presentable and have proper work clothes on, not flip-flops, closed-toe shoes that they're able to present themselves. As I'm here to handle this shipment, they communicate well with me. They communicate well with the shipper and the receiver.

Kenny Long:

Good or bad. Let me throw that out there. Good or bad, yeah. If there's a problem, communicate that as well. Don't try to hide it. Don't show up and there's damages and you restack the pallet to hide the damages or you just drop the product off and you just don't say anything. Good or bad, we know stuff happens but we'll trust you next time. When we have absolutely had people that have had issues, claims or whatever, but they told us about it, we were able to rectify it right away. It resulted in minimal damages. We didn't charge anything back to the carrier. Had they not told us, it would have really destroyed our relationship with the customer. We would not have trusted them and we probably would have been faced with a huge claim. You know high dollar amount that we would have had no choice to go back to the carrier to to address. So good or bad communication is extremely important. If you're running late, let us know.

Elizabeth Lo:

Yeah, maybe you overslept. You know things happen. We are all human, we've all made mistakes. You know things like that happen. But communication is is really super important and building that trust so that we can move forward is so valuable because, you know, we both want to be able to work with people that we know and can trust and work well with. So that would be what I'm looking for.

Kenny Long:

So that would be what I'm looking for, and I think a good phrase is say what you'll do, then do what you say. Right, just give your offer, explain how your services work, and then do that. Don't deviate from that. Don't say, absolutely, this is going to be a dedicated load, I'll have it there tomorrow, and then two days later we find out you're on the other side of the country because you've put some other parcels on the tail of this and there were problems, and now you're running late and everything fell apart. It's not what you told us, that it would be like that, you know. So make sure you say what you do and then do what you say.

Cindy Tunstall :

Yeah, I love that so much and it's so helpful. You know we have to think for the long term, right, Because our reputation matters. And you know, do you want this to be a one-off deal and you're never going to see this person again or never work with them, or do you care about the relationship and you keep in mind that? You know, maybe our paths are going to cross and reputation is important? So I love the things that you shared. Anything else that you want to add? Before we tell people how to get in touch with you, Do you have any other parting words of wisdom?

Elizabeth Lo:

Yes, I do.

Elizabeth Lo:

One other thing you said your reputation is so important and I think that you know drivers and everyone needs to remember that that is super important and we only get one, and the only one that's going to represent your business or you as well, or represent you in the best light, is going to be you.

Elizabeth Lo:

I see, especially in the transportation industry, a lot of drivers have outsourced their dispatching to a dispatcher and instead of representing their own company and making their own calls and I just want to encourage drivers not to shy away from finding their own loads and negotiating their own calls and I just want to encourage drivers not to shy away from finding their own loads and negotiating their own loads, because that is really how you're going to build these relationships and how you're going to build the trust. And you know the drivers that I have as regular drivers in certain cities. When I have a load that comes up, I am not calling a dispatcher, I am reaching out to those drivers directly and I appreciate the relationships that I've built with those individual drivers. And you just don't get that when you outsource one of the most important aspects of your business.

Cindy Tunstall :

I'll have to jump in here, Elizabeth, because for me, as a female driver, I'll tell you when I make a call on a load and I start negotiating and I'm talking, we're sharing the details, my MC number, and I'm telling all about this and that, and as soon as I can, I try to tell them that I'm the driver and that this is my trucking company. I cannot describe to you the level of change in the attitude and tone when they realize they're talking to the driver. So I know firsthand that drivers really you know I say this to female drivers all the time too so work it in as quickly as you can, because you know they assume that I'm a dispatcher because I'm a woman. And it's not that they're being sexist or anything, it's just that there are fewer female drivers. So they make the assumption that I'm a dispatcher. But as soon as they find out that I'm the driver, the tone changes.

Cindy Tunstall :

So I know that that makes a big difference to the broker in the relationship, because they could tell the way that I talk about this, I care about this, this is my company, this is my business and I'm the driver. So when I say I'm going to be there, you know there's a level of trust that's built in just right away, even just knowing that they're, you know, dealing directly with the driver. So it makes a. It's a big makes a big difference. I could tell when I'm speaking to brokers and shippers yes, I'd say that that applies to everybody male, female.

Kenny Long:

I do the exact same thing as the owner of the company. If I'm, you know a lot of brokers now want you to email for the first contact, so I'll send out an email and I'll put all my information at the very end. The bottom line is I am the owner of the company, not a dispatch service, because there are so many dispatch services out there that we all know are probably the cause of a lot of the fraud in the industry. They're hard to communicate with. A lot of times they don't have the information.

Kenny Long:

As a broker, we do not like working with dispatch services at all. If we had the opportunity to work with somebody that can direct versus somebody that's got a dispatcher 100% we want to work with the driver. So it's important for everybody to put that out there. If you're the driver or you're the owner of the company, or even if you're a dispatcher but you work exclusively for that company, say I am a part of this company. If you're a third-party dispatcher, they will find out, they'll know it and it's just not a good start to the relationship.

Cindy Tunstall :

Well, I think it ties back into some of the tips that you've already shared about. You know, negotiation is understanding the other side and what their needs are. So if you're being proactive and you're addressing those needs as they come up, so you're saying I know there's a potential concern here, but let me just go ahead and reassure you, I'm the driver and it's not going to be a problem. I'm the owner of this company. So, being proactive, expressing that you understand the other side, and those are all just more great ways to build rapport, so love that. So do you have any more tips or anything additional that you'd like to say or to share with our audience?

Elizabeth Lo:

before we wrap up, I'll say one thing I don't want to say that dispatchers are completely the enemy.

Elizabeth Lo:

Some people feel that they need to use dispatchers, and that is their choice.

Elizabeth Lo:

Some people feel that they need to use dispatchers and that is their choice. And you know, for dispatchers who have started that as a business, you know that's also great that they're being proactive in doing that. And I think for the dispatchers out there who are negotiating, I think it's really important that you loop the driver or carrier whoever you're representing into the conversation quickly and make sure that you know we are all able to be on the same page, because I think that is one of the hardest things with working with dispatchers is not having that full information where a dispatcher says, yes, we're going to do the load, and then I speak to the carrier and the carrier says, no, I'm not going to be able to do that, or I'm actually 200 miles away, not 20 miles away, and so you know, if you've chosen to be a dispatcher, it's not a problem. But make sure that your information that you're providing is accurate, because it is now on you to start to build that trust and, you know, make sure that you're as upfront with everything as possible.

Cindy Tunstall :

I love that you shared that because, again, revisiting that relationship, it's understanding the needs of the person that you're negotiating with and overcoming and being proactive so that you can meet those needs. So not saying that it's impossible, but it's a concern that they may have and it's legitimate. So, understanding why the other side has those concerns and then being able to address them in a way and say I'm the solution, it's not going to be a problem with me, this is the way I'm going to meet that need. So again, just great negotiation.

Kenny Long:

But make sure that you are truthful and honest about it. And if you don't have the information, tell the other person that you don't have the information and you can go back and get it. I remember when I was in the military, if you'd go before a promotion board, they would ask you questions that they know you don't have. The answer to the proper way to respond was I don't have that information, but I will get it and report back to you. And if you are dispatching for yourself, or if you're a dispatcher, do the same thing. Don't say, oh yeah, the driver can absolutely be there in 10 minutes. And then when, after the load's booked, you got everything filled out and you spent half an hour doing the paperwork, you find out the truck is three hours away. Right, Be honest. If you don't know, tell the person you don't know and then report back. This is what we came up with.

Cindy Tunstall :

Yeah, I can't say it enough building trust and rapport is so important and all those little things add up. So, um, you know it builds up into the you know the relational equity that we have an account. So to build trust. So, whether you're talking about negotiating a lane or um home time or negotiating your salary, um, doing everything you can to build trust and to keep those things on the forefront of everyone's mind. So so very good anything else that you can to build trust and to keep those things on the forefront of everyone's mind. So so very good Anything else that you want to add.

Kenny Long:

Let me leave with this. Before we started this call, I just started writing down just kind of notes of things that I thought we might talk about. Right, I have a whole page of stuff here and I checked off about 25% of the things. There is so much more, so much more to learn and reading books and participating in these. There are negotiation seminars, and there are so many different ways to get this information. We barely touched on it. I personally will put on a half a day class just on negotiation. There's so much more to it and it's not 100% stuff that you can learn by reading and listening. You have to practice it as well. I would not trust a master mechanic because he just read it in a book somewhere. You have to have some hands-on experience as well. So get out there and do it, practice it, and there's so much more. Never stop learning it. Read more books, talk to more people and just keep practicing.

Cindy Tunstall :

Well, that's a good lead in to tell everybody how they can get in touch with you. I know you have your YouTube channel and then you're on Facebook and you have some groups, so can you tell everybody how that they can get in touch with you and follow you and devour your content?

Kenny Long:

My Facebook group, Rates and and lanes on Facebook and my name is Kenny long. I started the group. You can find me personally on Facebook but rates and lanes group, we talk a lot about this stuff and then my YouTube channel you drive you, uh, featuring Kenny long. Um, that's a whole other training uh consulting company that we have. You drive you and I have not done a lot of stuff on that channel actually in a couple of years, but as we started the new year, I am working on stuff now. I've been setting up my studio and in the next week or two I am going to start putting out a lot of new information. Uh, there is a lot of questions that I get all the time that have gone unanswered. I am going to start answering those. So you find me on the on youtube. You drive you and that's why you drive letter. You like you drive university and that's where I'm at right.

Elizabeth Lo:

You can find me on facebook as elizabeth long, and company is patriot star. We have a facebook page for our company and we do also have a Facebook page for our company and we do also have a website, patriotstartruckscom. And you can find us even on Google as Patriot Star in Cleveland, tennessee, or Patriot Star Logistics, which is based in Apopka, florida, and feel free to reach out to us. I'm always interested in connecting with quality drivers and carriers that I can partner with to help move my shipments that I can rely on, so I'd love to hear from you. Or, if you're looking to have something shipped anywhere in the US or Canada, I'd be happy to help you with that as well.

Kenny Long:

Or owner-operator opportunities. If you have a truck and you're looking for something new, let us know.

Cindy Tunstall :

Okay great, I'm glad that you said that, because I was just going to ask you if a driver's interested in leasing onto your trucking company, is that an option as well? You'd be interested in having those conversations.

Kenny Long:

We're interested in the conversation and this year we made some company positions. We're still on the fence about that, but we have some new customer directions that we're headed so we may add a few opportunities. So feel free to reach out to us.

Cindy Tunstall :

Well, thanks again for coming on. I'm just delighted to hear this conversation. I know this is a topic that I could revisit over and over, so I know I'll listen to this conversation again. And thanks so much for the additional resources and we look forward to staying connected with you. And thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm so grateful that you took the time.

Elizabeth Lo:

It's so great, thank you so much for having us both on here. I really enjoyed talking with you, as always.

Brian Wilson:

Man this year was eye-opening. Huge thanks to Kenny and Elizabeth Long for breaking down negotiation in a way that actually makes sense, whether you're an independent owner negotiating some rates or a company driver looking to improve your pay, your home time or even just the way dispatch works with you. The biggest takeaway You're already negotiating every single day, whether it's your paycheck, your schedule or even just convincing your family on that vacation time. These skills do matter. The key is to stop thinking about negotiation as a battle and start seeing it as problem solving. Ask the right questions, mirror the other person's energy and don't be afraid to make that first offer.

Brian Wilson:

So here's the challenge. Let's try this, whether it's asking for a better load, setting expectations with your dispatcher or having a conversation with your box about what it's going to take to get you to stick around. Take what you learned today and use it. And hey, if this episode got you to thinking share with another driver who could use these tips. The stronger we are as negotiators, the stronger we are as a trucking community. So make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss the next episode and come hang with us at Enjoying Life OTR Facebook group, where we talk about real life challenges, real solutions and how to make the most of life on the road. So until next time, this is Brian Wilson, with your old hand with a new plan. Catch me later, right here at Join Life OTR.

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