#68 Thinking About Getting Your Own Authority? The Realities of Running a Trucking Company

Thinking about starting your own trucking company? Before you take the leap, let’s get real about the costs, challenges, and strategies for making it work.

In this episode of Enjoying Life OTR, Cindy Tunstall and Kyle Hutchinson break down the real steps to going independent—from getting your own MC authority to securing freight and building relationships with shippers.

Kyle shares insider strategies on negotiating rates, finding the best lanes, avoiding bad brokers, and how he built relationships with brokers and shippers to secure higher-paying freight—without relying on load boards. He also breaks down how to determine real market rates (not just what brokers tell you!) and how to negotiate fair layover fees so you’re properly compensated for downtime.

Cindy talks about her biggest lessons learned in launching her own authority and the biggest mistakes new owner-operators make. Plus, they tackle the age-old debate: Is it really the right time to start a trucking company?

If you’ve ever wondered whether owning a trucking business is for you, this episode will give you the clarity you need.

Get Cindy’s Free Guide: A step-by-step checklist for launching your own trucking company. Just click "Send Us a Text" in the show notes and send Cindy your email address.

Connect with Kyle Hutchinson--Follow The Tall Garage Facebook group and Youtube Channel.

Enjoying Life OTR Podcast drops new episodes on the 1st and 15th!  Hit subscribe and keep rolling with us.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introducing Kyle Hutchinson, Independent Trucker
• 6:47 Type of Equipment and Available Freight
• 16:09 Estimating Cost Per Mile for Business Planning
• 25:16 Negotiating Rates, Lay-Over, Protecting Your Company
• 44:15 How to Determine Market Rates in Different Areas
• 58:44 Factor Invoices or Wait for Payment
• 1:02:11 Checking Credit of Your Direct Shippers
• 1:05:14 Hire Dispatcher or Self Dispatch
• 1:08:41 When to Expand Your Fleet
• 1:11:04 When to Know if you are Ready to Go Independent
• 1:13:10 Kyle's Contact Info

Transcript

Brian Wilson: 0:06

So you're thinking about starting a trucking company. Maybe you're tired of giving up a chunk of your paycheck to the mega carriers, or maybe you're just ready to call the shots and start booking your own freight. But before you start filling out paperwork for your own authority, let's get real. Owning a trucking company isn't for everyone. There are plenty of benefits to being a company driver, just like there are plenty of perks to being an owner-operator or even going fully independent. This episode is all about giving you the clarity you need to make the best decision for you and your lifestyle. Hey y'all, I'm Brian Wilson, your old hand with a new plan, and this is Enjoying Life. Otr Today, cindy Tunstall and Kyle Hutchinson, both experienced trucking company owners, sit down to break down the real steps to running an independent trucking company. Whether you're just thinking about getting your old MC authority or already running trucks, this episode is packed with insight on what works, what doesn't and what they both wish they'd known sooner.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:13

Welcome back to Enjoy Life OTR. My name is Cindy Tunsell and I'm your host, and we have a great guest today. We are going to be talking about the steps and what it takes to get started in the freight transportation industry and specifically about how to start a trucking business and when to know when you're ready to get your own MC authority and go out on your own. And there's a lot of steps involved and I knew I couldn't cover it all on my own, so I invited a guest. He has his own successful trucking company. His name is Kyle Hutchison and we are going to go through all the steps for you. So welcome to the show, kyle.

Kyle Hutchinson: 1:47

Hi Cindy, how are you doing Beth?

Cindy Tunstall: 1:49

I'm so excited for this conversation. So I know you and I have some similar ideas about things and some differing ways that we do things, so I'm excited for our audience to get to hear from you. Before we jump into the nuts and bolts about starting a trucking company, why don't you give our audience a little bit of a background about your role in the industry and how you got started in trucking and you know what kind of freight you're running, all that kind of good stuff, just so they can get to know you.

Kyle Hutchinson: 2:16

Oh, no problem, I started around 2016,. I believe I worked two jobs when I was 18, saved up enough money, bought my first truck, started driving when I was 21. I was leased out as an owner for two years. Then I went and started my own authority because I was tired of somebody taking 20% from me. I felt like they were robbing me a little bit. Then, on my peak, I had six of my own trucks and two of our operators, and then a couple of unfortunate events happened and now I'm just down to one truck I haul box freight in Midwest East Coast and I kind of just go ahead and do my own thing and it works out pretty good.

Cindy Tunstall: 3:00

Well, I love your story. Mine's kind of similar. I started in 2020. And so, yes, I am a COVID trucking baby. I started with my own authority, but I drive a box truck and I was new to the industry myself. I did a lot of research and I had some mentors that were helping me get started. So I had some good, wise counsel and did lots of research, but I just jumped right in. I've never worked for another company and I kind of like that, but it's not for everybody.

Cindy Tunstall: 3:29

But I often have people ask me about starting their own trucking company. Either they're a company driver or they actually own their own truck and, like you were, they were leased onto a mega carrier and you know they're paying. You know sort of up to 30%. You know fees to be able to lease on, which I think when freight is thriving, that probably is very doable. But in a market like this, I often wonder how you know drivers and owner operators are getting paid. You know getting by paying those kind of extravagant fees and I think there are some benefits to doing it that way, but it also presents some challenges.

Cindy Tunstall: 4:10

If somebody asks you about starting a trucking company, I want to pick your brain and see what kind of advice that you would give somebody I know. Myself. I almost always say you know, don't do it unless you have freight lined up. And it's a terrible time to do it right now because trucking is really struggling and I know you have some different opinions about your advice. If somebody asks you that question about the timing, what would you say to that?

Kyle Hutchinson: 4:37

if somebody's interested in making the leap right now, Well, that makes a little bit more sense about you way. You said because you came into trucking during covid, during almost all-time high rates. Um, I came in. It was I'm not gonna say the bottom, but I think I started. I was getting a dollar 78 a mile and I was making it work. So to me the best time getting into trucking is when the rates are not at an all-time high. If you can operate a successful trucking company when you're getting normal to low rates when it starts to boom, you'll really be able to save money back and then expand your business.

Cindy Tunstall: 5:18

It is a challenging time and I think you're right If you have a good, solid business plan. A part of that to me is having freight lined up, so that's kind of why I make that little disclaimer If you've got freight lined up, you've got a good plan. You know you can make it work. And some people are hustlers and some people not so much. So what advice do you give for starting out Like you want to write that business plan and you want to start preparing? You know, maybe we're talking to a company driver and it's their dream to be independent, own their own truck and, you know, have their own authority. Where does somebody begin to writing a good solid business plan.

Kyle Hutchinson: 5:55

So you know that you're in a good position to succeed from the start. Well, I would say the first thing you'd want to do is to know where you're at in the country and where you're willing to go. So let's say you're in Columbus, ohio, and you only wanted to go. You wanted to stay in Ohio or Illinois or Indiana and you didn't want to go east. Or you didn't want to go to Chicago, you didn't want to do major cities. You would have to base your cost per mile around the rates that you could get in those lanes and as long as you can do that, you're going to be fine. But if your cost per mile, let's say, was $1.85 a mile, but your average line haul is only going to be average at $2.05, you're not going to be very successful in that. So sometimes being independent means you have to go where nobody else wants to go, because that's where you can make the money to actually succeed.

Cindy Tunstall: 6:50

Well, I wonder, wonder too, even back to the very beginning of the basics. I mean, do you need to establish what type of um freight you're going to be running, like reefer, flatbed, drive-in? I mean, are those important decisions to be making initially? And um, you know, because you have to think about equipment and the cost, and um, even think about what. You know how to run. You know, like I wouldn't know how to run a reefer obviously I haven't done that or a flatbed, you know I've been running a box truck. So I mean there's a lot to learn in the different types of industries. Is that going to be super important in the initial planning?

Kyle Hutchinson: 7:18

I'd say that would be selective to where you're at. So a lot of areas in the country in my opinion have good freight for pretty much anything you want. And there's certain areas like if I was in Texas I wouldn't run van, I would want to run a reefer or flatbed. And same way if I was in California I would want to run a reefer trailer, pretty much. Only it depends on where you're at.

Kyle Hutchinson: 7:40

A lot of markets have a lot of leeway for a lot of different types of equipment. They all have their own perks to it. You know, van is a little bit cheaper but you'll have more access to more loads. Refer you have a lot of waiting time but it pays a little bit more. Slot bed you have a lot of manual labor but it tends to pay a little bit more than van, but not as much as refer. So it kind of really depends on where you're at and what you want to do. You can make pretty much anything work in any area if you're willing to go to places that have the freight to make the money. That's how I look at it.

Cindy Tunstall: 8:18

Well, that's great insight. How would somebody educate themselves about the regions where they're wanting to run? How would you find that information? Where would be a good place for them to look?

Kyle Hutchinson: 8:29

I would start looking at load boards and I would search by van, flatbed and reefer, depending on where I was at, and see how many outbound loads you have in certain areas. And then, in those areas that you're taking the outbound to, you want to see how many inbound loads are coming from that area back to where you're at and so that way you know. Like again, I'm in Indiana, so if I run out east of the flatbed there's not a lot of loads out east of the flatbed. Now that's not saying I couldn't do that, but I'd have to get a lot more of my outbound to make it worth it because I'd be deadheading a lot back outbound to make it worth it because I'd be deadheading a lot back. So it's really like if you go to the load board you shouldn't be able to see in your area there's, like you know, supposed to for seven days there's a thousand van loads and 800 reefer loads and 37 flatbed loads. Well, you probably wouldn't want to haul flatbed out of there. That's how I would look.

Cindy Tunstall: 9:22

That's great information. I think that you made a good point too about checking out. You know, like you're in Indiana, I think that you know Midwest is a great area to run freight and there are lots of options going out there. But you know, say you're, you know, looking at a load going into Florida and that's, you know, getting all you know appears to be getting all this great money. But if you don't do that next step of what's it like to get out of Florida, you know where you're only getting a dollar. Or you know if sometimes you're not getting a dollar getting out of Florida, so you know they're going to look at a deadhead to get out of there. So that rate going into Florida needs to be paying to accommodate the rate getting out. So there's a lot of research that needs to be done.

Kyle Hutchinson: 9:59

A lot of research. Yes, yes, yes. I have come out of Florida for 90 cents a mile many times in my career and that's why I don't run to Florida anymore.

Cindy Tunstall: 10:12

Yeah, I only go in if I'm getting a really good rate going in, because it's rough getting out. And then just availability the sheer volume I'm afraid that's coming out of there is just a struggle. We're such a consumer. Okay, so let's talk about how to set up a business plan. So they've done some research about the types of freight that they want to run. They have an idea. Maybe they have experience running flatbeds, so they're going to go with that or reefer or whatever, and they have a decision on that type of freight. Actually, putting down on paper the expenses that they need to save for and plan for. Can we maybe rattle off some of those expenses for somebody so that in case there's things that they're not maybe haven't considered?

Kyle Hutchinson: 10:55

Oh, of course you have tolls. You have your IFTA stickers that's done every quarter. You have your license plates, your fuel, your maintenance, oh, your log books. I don't know. Cindy, can you think of anything else to add on top of that?

Cindy Tunstall: 11:13

Well, I would say your regular maintenance, but also, I would say a savings fund for emergencies, because in case you have a big repair on the truck or you have regular freight you're running and they have an emergency and they have to shut down the factory for the week or you know. So just a fund set aside, you know, for just in case, and I think that needs to be a pretty significant number. What number would you say would be a good cushion to have in savings before you get started?

Kyle Hutchinson: 11:43

So I like to look at it. This is how I do it myself. The most expensive thing to fix in your truck is going to be an engine, and so, depending on what truck you get, that's going to depend on how much it costs for a shop to do an overhaul on your engine. So anywhere between $25,000 and $35,000 is what I like to keep in my maintenance fund at all times, and I wouldn't even consider getting into my own trucking company or starting my own business without that in the bank.

Cindy Tunstall: 12:10

Well, that's a similar number. I say I used to say $30,000 for that same reason and I say either you have the cash on hand or you have a really good available credit and so that you have access to funding if you have to do something major like that. Also to think about if your truck is being repaired, you have the cost of the truck being repaired, but then you also have that downtime where you're not earning any income and you know your truck payment is still due, your insurance payment is still due and all these other you know little subscriptions that nickel and dime you to death. You know all of those things are still coming due even though you're not earning income. So that time when the truck is down, that eats away that $30,000 super quick.

Kyle Hutchinson: 12:52

I think that if you get into this, you really need to be set up financially, because a lot of things can happen in trucking and you could buy a brand new truck and still have issues with it in the first month you have it. I had that happen to me. I bought a new one in 2016 and it was in the shop for two weeks on the first month, so you can't really rely on that. I would say you need a six months emergency fund for your business, and that includes your payroll, your license plates, your IFTA, your insurance, and then you also need a maintenance fund on top of that and that way, if anything happened to you and you were broke down or COVID happened a lot of times during COVID, people were going out of business because there was no freight. So if you had a six-month emergency fund, you can pay yourself for six months and make sure you paid all the bills for your company as well.

Cindy Tunstall: 13:43

So, with having said all that, you know, you have somebody come to you that's a company driver and say you know they're earning 60 cents a mile, you know. And they don't. You know they're, you know, on a dedicated lane. They don't mind, they're still getting home time when they want it. What's your advice to somebody in that situation, with all these expenses that you just said? Do you advise somebody to make that leap or just say what do you say when somebody's wanting to make the change?

Kyle Hutchinson: 14:09

I have one question why? I want to know why they want to make the change. If they want to make it for more money, then there's only one way that you're going to make more money and you have to come in with. You have to have your savings fund, you have to have your maintenance fund, you have to have your emergency fund and you have to have your savings fund, you have to have your maintenance fund, you have to have your emergency fund and you have to have paid off equipment and you can weather any storm with that setup right there. If that's what you want to do is to come in to make more money then I would say if you had that setup, you had a reliable truck and a trailer that fit the region you were in I would tell them to go for it. If they came in and said they wanted more freedom, I would tell them to find a different trucking company that is more willing to accommodate them.

Kyle Hutchinson: 14:58

When I had drivers, I was really good about when they said, hey, I need to be home for the 17th for a doctor's appointment. Okay, no problem. Hey, I got to take two weeks off for this. Hey, I get my daughter every other weekend. So I want to be home for five days for that weekend, but I'll run the rest of the time. And you really have to find a company that's accommodating to your needs and what you want. I had one driver. He wanted to stay out for three months at a time and come back for one month. That's great. I had another driver. He only wanted to run local. That that's great. I had another driver. He only wanted to run local. That wasn't a problem with me. I got a local setup for him and he was home every night. And if you're working with a company and they may pay you really well but it doesn't fit your schedule, there's hundreds of thousands of companies out there that might have a schedule that will fit you better.

Cindy Tunstall: 15:40

I think that's good advice. I really like that. It's like that in itself. More freedom is not that it's a big thing to take on a short company no-transcript about that, because I don't think it's anybody's business but just speak kind of generally. How do you go about figuring out your cost per mile when we have fluctuations in certain things like our? You know our preventive maintenance is going to vary depending on how many miles that we ran that month. Or you know our fuel cost is obviously going to fluctuate depending on where we ran and you know how many miles we put on the truck. So how does somebody go about coming up to that figure of what their cost per mile is so that they, when they're negotiating, they have a place to start?

Kyle Hutchinson: 16:50

The personal way I like to do it is I like to use a year average. So the end of the year for me, my license plates are due, my fourth quarter is due and then I start working on my taxes. So I'll add up all my miles for my license plate and then I already have all my fuel and maintenance and poles and ISTA and all that already added up for my taxes. And that's how I come up with my numbers. That way I have a good year average of whatever the maintenance was and that changes every year because you're going to have different expenses. You might rebuild the motor one year, have to put a rear end in, or you might get lucky and have a couple years that nothing goes wrong.

Kyle Hutchinson: 17:30

But if you are just starting out, a good number I would say to use if you have a truck and trailer payment is $2 a mile because you have to include paying yourself. That's probably on the higher side but I would say that would be a realistic number to shoot for. So that way you know that you're going to be able to make all your minimums and keep your equipment well-maintained and to pay yourself. I just wanted to add that $2 a mile. I was saying you can use that for the first 30 days and then you can readjust from there. After that, then you can go off a month average and then until you get to the full year.

Cindy Tunstall: 18:16

And I would say to put that to paper, you know somebody has they're going to. Because I did this when I started I thought you know what do I have to earn to make this profitable? And you know, I was going to have a truck payment, I was going to have insurance, I knew some things were going to be fixed and I knew, kind of I could guesstimate how much you know miles per gallon my truck was getting. So I was guessing. You know, I would put a couple of different scenarios together. You know, say I'm getting, you know, 600 miles a day or 500 miles a day and I would just run some different numbers. Or if I was going to run local, you know I was looking at all the scenarios about what you know, I would put it to paper and say if this was the kind of trade I was running, I was doing local, regional, over the road, and I was getting these miles or these miles, I would just put all the scenarios on paper to see what is it going to take for me to you know, because then if I have the miles that I'm going to run I know the gas mileage, the fuel you know that my truck is getting I can make an estimate of how much I'm going to pay per full. So I just had a big range of you know options and I thought, you know, I think I can make this work.

Cindy Tunstall: 19:15

So, and then it was still scary. I was like I had to go and do it. And you know it's tough when you have a brand new authority, because you know brokers don't want to run with a brand new authority, especially now because there's so much fraud in the industry and they don't know if you're trustworthy or not, if you really are actually going to deliver their freight like you say you're going to do. So the fraud makes it really difficult for a brand new authority. How would you advise somebody? You know how do you find loads and what's the way to get started and start to build some relationships and network that can actually sustain your business.

Kyle Hutchinson: 19:51

When I first got started with my authority I kind of had a cheesy gimmick I would use. I would go into the shippers and receivers and I would say here's my rate, I guarantee delivery or you don't pay. Normally, the greed in the shipper's eyes, you can see it will take over and they will at least try you out.

Cindy Tunstall: 20:15

Well, a couple of things I love about that, for one, that you're going into a shipper.

Cindy Tunstall: 20:19

So you didn't say I'm just start calling loads on the load board, because I think that's the most challenging situation and I think that can work and I surely did that. But I think so many people don't realize that. Just go into. You don't have to have a broker. You can go in and meet those shippers and I'm sure those shippers when they met you, you have a confidence in your ability, you know, and that's very, that's very appealing to a shipper because their biggest concern is that their freight's not going to be delivered. When you say it's going to be delivered, and then also you went in and you made an impression, you know, on that shipper. You know you're aggressive, you're very assertive, which you know. I I'm assertive as well. So I mean, I think that that goes a long way. I don't think people understand the value of that level of communication and confidence and saying how much I'm going to, I'm going to do this for you, and you're looking them in the eye and you're going to say give me a shot, and people, people will say yes.

Brian Wilson: 21:16

You know, something Kyle said really stuck out for me how, when he walked straight into shippers and made his pitch with confidence that right there, that's gold man. We talked last week about how confidence and making that first offer can put you in control of a negotiation. By the way, if you missed that episode, go check it out, it's worth it. But here's the deal. If you're stepping out on your own, you got to get comfortable with talking numbers, setting expectations and just flat getting up and walking out when a deal doesn't serve you right. No one's handing out golden tickets in this trucking business. You got to go after what you're worth. All right, guys. Back to Cindy and Kyle.

Kyle Hutchinson: 22:01

Well, I will add that when you first start for the first six months to a year, you're going to be hauling a lot cheaper than somebody who's been around for five years, in my opinion. So you really need to know that. It starts off slower, but the more your company ages, the more pull you will have talking to shippers and receivers and brokers as well. Cards are very important and have a very good use. You just got to make relationships with a few brokers. You don't need all of them, you just need a couple of them in your lanes.

Cindy Tunstall: 22:38

that's in your corner for you. Yeah, I agree, I'm a big fan of brokers and I still run with brokers. I just don't do it as much as I once did, but I'm still a big fan of brokers and I still run with brokers. I just don't do it as much as I once did, but I'm still a big fan. I think they do have, you know, especially going into an area that you know I get a high paying load. You know, say, to Florida, I get a really high paying load into Florida. I don't have any connections there because it's so rare that I go into Florida, but this is a high paying load I can't not go.

Cindy Tunstall: 23:00

You know I'm going to, I'm going to take this load. So, um, you know I, I'm going to rely on, you know, brokers to help me get out of that city or that location where I don't. It's a place where I don't usually run and, um, I, you know I, I think that they're a it's a great partnership to me. I feel like I'm doing a service for them. They're doing a service for me, doing all've made hundreds and hundreds of calls to me to secure these relationships with shippers. So I'm happy to work with them. I feel like they're a partnership, so I don't have any problems with brokers.

Kyle Hutchinson: 23:31

Yeah, I'm in the same boat with you. I mean, they provide a service that we do need. Just don't rely on them 100% and don't only rely on one broker.

Cindy Tunstall: 23:44

Just a minute before I started really networking with direct shippers right away and if I look back on my time, I wish I had done that years ago. I didn't have the confidence to do it, honestly, and I wasn't sure. Even in the early on, I wasn't sure what rates I could promise them, or I didn't know what everybody else was earning. I didn't know where the places were to go and I also didn't know how to check credit. So I do want to talk about that. How do you know if a shipper is going to pay? So I think that's an important thing for us to discuss. But so I look back on that.

Cindy Tunstall: 24:14

I relied heavily on brokers in the beginning and I really made sure every conversation that I had I was trying to make a good impression so that that person, anytime there was a load that would fit in my truck and they were in my area I wanted them to think of me. You know, I just looked at every opportunity and every conversation as an opportunity to network and to build relationships that could, you know, turn into more freight. So even if people like I was bidding on loads and things that I, you know, I got, I lost a bid or I would always have it in the back of my head, you know, hey, maybe we can do the next one. Or, you know, I just did a show in negotiation. I talked with some brokers and you know, last week's episode was great and lots of really great tips for negotiating.

Cindy Tunstall: 24:55

But I always saw that need to build relationships and network. And then, everywhere I would go, I would want to. You know, I was telling everybody that I had a trucking company and people would just, you know, randomly tell me, hey, do you know someone says in shipping he has a warehouse over there and blah, blah, blah, and I was like I did not know that. I will be giving them a call.

Kyle Hutchinson: 25:17

I had a driver who was an auto operator, who wanted to be self-dispatched, and he didn't know you could negotiate rates. He didn't know you could negotiate anything. And it's like once I realized that I'm like okay, that thought never crossed my mind, that people didn't know how to negotiate with a broker.

Cindy Tunstall: 25:35

Even if you've been running as an owner-operator and I didn't know this, but my friends that have run as owner-operators with mega carriers they have a load board up there and they're not negotiating that you know those rates are fixed and they'll say, yes, I'll take that load to Utah or no, I will not take that one. I'm going to go to upper state, new York, you know, and they're just picking the rate that's on there. So I think, if that has been your background, I think that when you, you know, see, and you get on a load board as a you know, independent, you see that posted rate. There's no reason for you to know any differently that that's negotiable. So I don't think that's uncommon. I've heard other people say that like it's. You know when the load is posted, they act like that's it. You know I'm like the posted rate, that's that's. Just ignore that. So that means nothing.

Kyle Hutchinson: 26:22

Yeah, you call and tell them you're raped.

Cindy Tunstall: 26:24

That was helpful information. I think that's a common mistake that new owners make.

Kyle Hutchinson: 26:32

Everything is a negotiation and the law normally favors a trucking company versus a brokerage. Industry standard is a joke term. That's not real. There's no industry standard on anything. It's what you deem as a fair and reasonable charge as a trucking company. Again, when a broker says that's the industry standard, I hate that term so much because they always want to use it for layover or detention pay and it's like I wish you guys. People believe that and that's not what you should be getting. You should be getting your day rate. And if you don't get your day rate, I've been blackballed by two or three brokerages because they wanted me to sit and wait for three days for $150 a day and I just laughed at them and I wouldn't put that freight directly onto a crosstalk in their name and I went on about my life.

Cindy Tunstall: 27:24

For real, you did that.

Kyle Hutchinson: 27:26

Yeah, Wow, I love that there's. No, I want this much. Well, we can't pay that. I'm like did I mess up? No, Did you mess up? You're saying you didn't? So it had to be the other party that messed up and they're the ones paying for it anyway. So one's paying for it anyway, so I'm not going to save you $150 a day. And then they called the cops on me and then they came out and I explained the situation and I used masks to the officer to explain why I was charging this much. And he's like well, you're here, why don't they just unload you? I'm like that's exactly my point. And they're like okay, well, you have a good day, sir. I'm like thank you, I appreciate that.

Cindy Tunstall: 28:01

So what happened? Any repercussions for doing that? I mean, did you get freight guarded? Did you get paid for the load? Any repercussions?

Kyle Hutchinson: 28:09

Well, I got paid after like six months of fighting. I got a freight guard but I fought it and I won because I didn't do anything wrong. They have to pay you for that load because you completed your contract.

Cindy Tunstall: 28:21

Oh, wow.

Kyle Hutchinson: 28:22

Yeah.

Cindy Tunstall: 28:24

And.

Kyle Hutchinson: 28:25

I learned this was that?

Cindy Tunstall: 28:27

is that a problem? Or you already have relationships with brokers?

Kyle Hutchinson: 28:29

it wasn't a big deal um, it took a while to get cleared up, but I already had relationships with brokers. And these brokers I talk to and they're like it's laughable, because when I tell them I want $11.60 a day as my layover, they're like okay, cool. Because when I tell them I want $11.60 a day as my layover, they're like okay, cool, no problem, send over. Thanks, buddy, appreciate it. Or there's always the option of unloading me today, and that's normally the goal that I try to go for. So this happened like I'm telling you something that happened like three months ago. Three months ago I was delivering. I picked up out of Chicago and I was delivering. I picked up out of Chicago and I was delivering to upstate New York at Johnstown. There's a Walmart DC there, right, and it was two-day delivery. So I picked it up. I had two days to make it out there. It was 800-something miles and when I got out there, they typed my number and said, yeah, this number's no good, your appointment number. So I'm like, oh, okay.

Kyle Hutchinson: 29:20

So I went out to the parking lot, I called the broker. I'm like, hey, look, this is what's going on. I need a new delivery appointment. I need to get unloaded today. I have other things to do and they're like okay, well, hang on, it's kind of something simple, we'll get back with you.

Kyle Hutchinson: 29:34

Like an hour later I called them back. I'm like, hey, what's going on? I need to crosstalk and they're here on around and never ask for layover. All we need to make them propose layover to you. That's a better negotiation tactic because it helps you get what you want.

Kyle Hutchinson: 29:52

And so eventually they brought up layover and I'm like I don't want to wait here, I want unloaded. But if I have to wait here, I'm going to give you my rate, but you're not going to like it. And I told them I wanted $11.68. And they were appalled. They're like well, the industry standard says $250 a day. We might be able to do $400 a day. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm going to tell you right now that if you don't have me a rate con or a crosstalk or a new delivery appointment for today and the next hour, I'm going to go put this into a cross-stock. Or if I can't find a cross-stock, I'm just not going to deliver this load until you pay me. And we fought back and forth and about 30 minutes later I had a new delivery appointment and I got unloaded at Walmart that day.

Cindy Tunstall: 30:39

Wow yeah.

Kyle Hutchinson: 30:41

I took a ride.

Cindy Tunstall: 30:41

How has that worked for you? I mean, is that a one-off thing or this has been a thing that's been proven to be working for you on a regular no?

Kyle Hutchinson: 30:49

this works Okay, and they will say that you can't do that and they'll threaten to call the cops on you. Or again, they will call the cops on you, but the cops can't do anything, because the bill of lading is basically a contract saying that this freight is yours. You are in possession of this freight, it is on your truck. So listen, I'm sorry, officer, I'm here to unload right now. Here's my rate, john See, where it says I'm supposed to be here this time to unload. So they don't want to unload me. How am I holding it hostage? I want to give them their freight. I'm just not going to wait for three days for free. That's not how this situation works. I love it. And again you will get. Brokers will never work with you again, but if they're a broker that acts like that, you don't want to work with them anyways.

Cindy Tunstall: 31:40

Yeah, I love this and I can tell this comes from experience. You're at a place where you have relationships with people that you count on, so you're not dependent on the load board, so you have a little bit more leeway than somebody that was a brand new authority, would you say. That's true.

Kyle Hutchinson: 32:01

If you were brand new and especially because you don't know what it's like to run a trucking company, because when you were an independent, you're not a truck driver, you were a business owner and you don't have the experience to run that business. So if you were running for a broker that you haul three loads a week for, you don't want to do this to him because that's your bread and butter. So you want to do this to the random one-off. You get a message, you get an email, they call you and you say yeah, I'm 20 minutes away from pickup dude, this is my rate $3,300. Let's go. And they're like okay, no problem, Send it over. You got to be there in the next hour to pick it up. These are the brokers that you want to put to the ringer and get every dime that you're worth, Because, again, it's a give and take with people that you know, even your shippers. I probably wouldn't charge one of my shippers $11.68 a day layover, but I'm definitely going to charge more than the industry standard.

Cindy Tunstall: 32:51

Yeah, and those people when you have that relationship, they're willing to do that also. You, yeah, and those people when you have that relationship, they're willing to do that also. You know they understand that you're running a business.

Kyle Hutchinson: 33:02

Those are good people and those relationships are the best and an easy way to explain it to a broker of why you want what you want is well, listen, I hauled this 800-mile load for you and you paid me $3,200, and it took me two days to do it. So that's saying my truck is worth $1,600 a day. So I'm giving you like 33% off and 30% off, charging you $1,168, which is my fuel and maintenance. So if my truck is worth $1,600 a day to bring this load out here, why isn't it worth $1,168 a day to wait when somebody else screwed up, and not me?

Cindy Tunstall: 33:38

Well, the other thing, too, I'll use as a negotiation. It's like you're costing me my next load, my next load, for the rate, and I'll say the same thing you paid me this, they're paying me that. Like I've always established, this is what the value for my truck is. So, along that same line, that's strong.

Kyle Hutchinson: 33:51

And when you're dealing with carrier, 411, just make sure the first thing you do is send it's not a cease and desist letter, but you send a letter to the broker or the brokerage and tell them stop doing this, you're hurting my business, all this other stuff and get a lawyer involved. You should have a lawyer on retainer if you run a business because you're going to get into an accident, somebody's going to sue you. It's a good idea. And if he knows even the letterhead of a lawyer sending to a brokerage office when you have a carrier 411 report on there, it goes a long way.

Cindy Tunstall: 34:31

Yeah, that's good advice. You have to protect yourself because a lot of crazy shit happens in your life.

Kyle Hutchinson: 34:38

There is a lot of crazy stuff that happens and there's a lot that goes into it and it takes a long time to fight it and it's just better if you don't get one. But sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. You gotta make a stand, brokers will walk in. That is what I didn't know when I first started. That I wish I knew was that industry standard meant nothing, because I was just like cool, at least I'm getting something to sit here, you know. So I'm glad that eventually I learned that oh, that's a fair deal, that's a made-up number, you know.

Cindy Tunstall: 35:23

Well, and you know, I think one thing I hear when talking with you it's like you know the importance of having a mentor and really doing your own research about what the laws are, the regulations. There's so much that's in place to protect us as carriers and you know we need to be knowledgeable about that. So take your time to study and get familiar with the regulations. But even beyond that, I think, to have a mentor, so somebody that you can trust, that's going to be able to give you some real straightforward you know wisdom about how to handle situations because they've done it and they've been there and they know how things work. So get a mentor.

Kyle Hutchinson: 36:04

Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah, that's good.

Cindy Tunstall: 36:10

I have two things for myself what advice I would give. I guess I think I wish I had known about that trend lines earlier on, when I discovered that it's a free website, that DAT trend lines, and it'll tell you where the average rate that the different types of trucks are getting in the different regions. I think I would have liked to have known that earlier. That would have been helpful in setting up my planning about what their rates were, because I was kind of just guessing and going based on what I was hearing from other drivers. But I like that that statistic is out there and you can look and say can I really make that work? And those are averages. So that means I would take that to mean okay, yeah, some people are making more than that, and then there's people that are making less than that. So, but it was a good place to start. I think it would have given me a little bit more confidence early on. And I would also tell people you know, don't get frustrated that it's tough in the beginning, because it's going to be tough in the beginning as a new trucking company and you're going to get a lot of rejection, you're going to get a lot of people turned down, but don't. Don't just take no because, like Kyle said, everything is negotiable. But the bottom line is that shippers want to get their product delivered on time when you say that you're going to deliver it and that doesn't always happen. So if you can say, trust me, you know I'm going to do a good job for you and my rate is reasonable. I know that I'm new, but I've got a, I've got references and, especially if you've been a company driver, you should have industry references that you can share and just speak boldly about yourself and and just trust, like kind of understand what their pain points are and then be able to speak boldly to what those are, cause in the beginning I didn't know what their pain points were. You know my pain points were like I'm going to be able to pay my tax payment this month and next month and, you know, pay myself a salary. I wasn't sure what all those things were, but I was just focused on trying to make the money. But when I started to realize that you know they have their own set of concerns about what's going to happen with this load and I began to just talk with real confidence that listen, give me a shot, I'm going to do a good job for you, and just a little bit of rapport building. During those conversations it was surprising to me how many people would give me a shot and you know, just give me a chance to get in there and hustle and make some money.

Cindy Tunstall: 38:29

And then, after I delivered a load, I didn't do this in the beginning, but I realized pretty quickly. You know, there's certain brokers that I want to keep working with, so I would just follow up and I started to tell them where I would. You know where my truck was going to be. Like I would say, hey, I'm going to be in Chicago on Thursday. Keep me in mind if you have anything coming out of there. I still had two days to get there, so I had given them a warning that I was headed that way and that was really helpful. So do you post your truck on the DAT, load boards and things to let brokers know that your truck is available? Do you do that?

Kyle Hutchinson: 39:04

I have a couple things to talk and to say about DAT. Dat is a tool for brokers, not truck drivers. Don't believe their trend lines. They're not accurate at all and I know I do not post my truck anywhere because that helps shoot the rates down most of the time in high volume areas.

Cindy Tunstall: 39:24

Okay, I have some. I agree with that on one hand, and then on the other I don't. I also I think early on I might've been concerned about that, but I still feel like now that I have an ability to negotiate and being like that's just a place for me to look at what's happening, but it doesn't mean that's what it's going to be. You kind of have to take it with a grain of salt. You know that may be the average that they're booking and that they're seeing there, but it doesn't mean that that's not all that's available. So if it's saying that the average for that lane is paying, you know, $2.30, that doesn't mean that's what I have to offer or I have to accept. I still have to count on my ability to negotiate and bring that rate up. So I think it's just a piece of information. I don't think it's the end. All be all About posting the truck. I go back and forth about this. Honestly, I think there may be some truth to the fact that it might affect the rates in that area. But I've had so many times where I'll post my truck and one of my favorite brokers will call me with a load before they posted it on there because they saw me on there. So when that had happened for me a couple of times, I started going One of my brokers that I work with across the region to be able to know I was in their area and it actually served me really well and I continue to do that.

Cindy Tunstall: 40:40

My problem that I have with it most recently really this past year is why it's not posting my truck is that dispatchers now have access to DAT so they can get on there and they just start blowing up your phone. Hey, so they can get on there and they can. They just start blowing up your phone. Hey, I see you've got an empty truck in Atlanta and I'm like you know who are you and I always say what's your MC number? And they go I don't have an MC number, I'm actually a dispatcher, you know, but my phone will blow up with those calls.

Cindy Tunstall: 41:08

So that's the reason for me that I stopped posting my truck, but I still I'll post. You know I'll do email blasts and tell everybody hey, I'm going to be in Atlanta on Thursday, let me know if you see anything that works in my truck. And because I just have one truck. So I have to be really proactive to kind of keep busy, and you know, because they're not going to send me an email every time they have a load, because you know the chances are that I'm available. You know is going to be low, so I'm available. You know it's going to be low, but so I'm going to reach out to them and let them know where I am. So that's been helpful for me.

Kyle Hutchinson: 41:40

I would add on to that by saying if you really want to be really successful, you want to run the same lanes 24-7 and you want to get the relationship built up with the broker, then they know every week you're going to be in that area, so they will give you the loads before they go on the load board, because in my opinion, dat about 80% of their loads are. A shipper says I need a load picked up between the 7th and the 27th. Give me the cheapest truck possible. You want to be in the 20%? That is? Hey, I need one of your normals, one of your regular guys on this load. It picks up on the 7th and needs to deliver on the 9th. That's the kind of relationship I want.

Cindy Tunstall: 42:27

It's the biggest. You know it's a race to the bottom, so to speak. I mean it really is. It's like you're competing with. You know it's not good.

Cindy Tunstall: 42:39

So that's why, that's why building a relationship with email and, you know, letting them know where I'm going to be, and, um, and I, I agree with you the same, the time that I've been most successful is I'm running dedicated lanes and running in that same area, whether I'm, you know, I would.

Cindy Tunstall: 42:53

I had season where I was doing Dallas to Chicago and I just was tearing up that lane, just like, just went back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and, um, out of Dallas I might have one or two shippers that were running that lane and I would have a couple, um different brokers in Chicago that were, you know, hooking me up on the other end, and I was just constantly letting everybody know when I was going to be back. And I've done that with Atlanta and Nashville and just different seasons where I'm just constantly running. And then occasionally, like I'll be in Nashville, I'm like, okay, this is going to take me off my path, but as soon as I could get back to that rhythm, running that same lane, and it was most profitable for that reason, because I could have relationships with people that were running when I came straight out of those cities. So, yeah, that's great advice.

Kyle Hutchinson: 43:37

Yeah, in my mind you want to do 600 miles round trips. You want to do 600 miles there, 600 miles back, so you can do it in one day. You can do two and a half rounds a week and you'll be working with the same customers, same shippers, same brokers, over and over again and they will rely on you more and more and you'll gain their trust more and more and eventually you will be their go-to. You will be the one they call and say this little gentleman, I'll go ahead and give Kyle a call. I'm sure he'll want it for you know, the 12s or the 15s.

Cindy Tunstall: 44:12

Yeah, I love that.

Kyle Hutchinson: 44:17

I mean, how do you figure out market rates?

Cindy Tunstall: 44:21

well, I look at, I do look I know you said you don't like to look at that what the trend line is showing there, but I'm also, you know, I do look at that. I do look at see what that's paying. I don't think that it means that what I have to pay, and I do think there's some negotiation skills that are involved but I do look at that and see as a base of what's paying. I don't think it's set up just for brokers. I do think that it's the most reliable source for that information that you can get and not to say that there's not trucks making more than that. But I just have that in mind going in. So I look at data. I use the load boards for the load averages for the month. What about you? You say you don't trust those. How are you deciding where to go?

Kyle Hutchinson: 45:03

Again. I go to the same areas every week, unless I'm doing my local dedicated round trips. I do that in the summer. What I would do is if I wanted to go from Columbus Ohio to Chicago Illinois, I would call carriers in Columbus and say, hey, I'm Bob with XYZ Broker and I'm looking out of a dedicated account and I'm looking for a truck to go to Columbus Ohio every day of the week. How much would you charge to do that? And I'd do that like 10 or 15 times and take the average out of that and that would be the lane rate for that area and that would tell me if I wanted to do that lane or not.

Cindy Tunstall: 45:45

And so where are you getting the carrier information?

Kyle Hutchinson: 45:49

I just Google Columbus, ohio trucking companies and normally a lot of them pop up. Safer will pop up as well. That's how I would figure out, because that's how brokers do it. That's how brokers figure out what it's going to cost to haul a load from Columbus to Chicago. That's how they should do it anyways. A lot of these brokers are promising super cheap rates to these shippers to get their business, and that's why the market is so down. But if they did it the right way, they would call and be like hey, we're working on this.

Kyle Hutchinson: 46:20

How much do you want your truck to do it? And they would do that 10 or 15 times and they'd go back to the shipper and say here you go. This is what we should be able to get moved for.

Cindy Tunstall: 46:28

And are you finding that carriers will give that in, will talk to you like that, without knowing who you are?

Kyle Hutchinson: 46:34

Have you ever gotten a call or an email from a broker saying, hey, we have this load, how much do you want to haul it? Because I've had that happen every week and I always give them my numbers. Yeah, I mean. So it's very different. Right than that.

Cindy Tunstall: 46:48

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Kyle Hutchinson: 46:50

Yeah, because it happens. I'm going to say to me I get 50 emails a week with people asking me hey, we have this load, what's your rate? And then I get random phone calls saying hey, I'm with XYZ broker, we got this load. Are you interested and you want to find?

Cindy Tunstall: 47:09

I get so many calls from dispatchers I mean it's so ridiculous, so I don't. I won't talk to the dispatcher, so I always will. I'm always like what's your MC number so I can rattle off their MC number. I'm not going to talk to them because they're a dispatcher and I don't want to waste my time.

Kyle Hutchinson: 47:22

You know having that conversation, but you can, just you can just rattle off your MC number of your trucking company and they're not going to look it up. Yeah, they they're going to say, oh okay, cool, I mean again because you're not lying at that point if you just rattle off your MC number.

Cindy Tunstall: 47:37

Yeah, that's good. I like that. That's good hustle.

Kyle Hutchinson: 47:41

Kyle, that is a really important tip. That's how I like to do it, because then again, if you go off the DAT and that's why I don't like the DAT averages Because if you call trucking companies like that and do that to medium to small trucking companies, the DAT average is nowhere near what people actually want to charge and that's the rate you want is the rate that trucking companies want. Because right now, what's everybody doing Complaining about how bad rates are and all those people are taking loads off the load board. And what are all those people complaining about that? The brokers have the loads posted too cheap. So it all factors into. That's why I don't trust the 18.

Cindy Tunstall: 48:24

Well, and I think that the problem with the 18 number probably is accurate and you know people. When you're calling and saying what you want to run that lane, you know they're giving a number that's going to make them a profit. So I think probably you know that's going to build your confidence to be able to not you but you know just somebody negotiating that this is really what the lane is worth and to be able to stand firm on that. I love to tell somebody when they go that lane doesn't pay that much. I'm like, dude, I run this lane three times a week. Don't tell me what the lane runs. You know I'm like this is my bread and butter, so I know what this Lane pays, so you're going to have to come up. I'd love to be able to say that.

Kyle Hutchinson: 49:03

But a lot of trucking companies. They don't know their cost per mile, they don't know what their target rate should be. So they're out here running for what the spot market rate is. And I know this because I've asked in Facebook groups hey, what does everybody consider cheap freight? And everybody says the same thing. You say, cindy. Well, according to VAT, the national average right now is $2.06 a mile. So if you're above $2 a mile you're doing okay. That's not accurate at all. You should not have that mentality because that's not true. So if you don't know what the rate should be, then you can't tell your shipper what you want to haul it, because if you go off to the DAT they're probably going to be really happy because you're doing it for a dollar less a mile than anybody else and in six months you're probably going to be out of business because you're not making enough profit.

Cindy Tunstall: 49:54

It's not sustainable just to fly articy to your pants it's going to catch up with you.

Kyle Hutchinson: 49:59

Yeah, and again, most of the loads on the load board are from brokers that promise loads to shippers for way too cheap and they know that people are going to take it because it's almost what the market average that DAT says it is, so why wouldn't they take it? Everybody thinks it's slow right now because you know what's 20 cents, 15 cents a mile Just take it, it's fine. That's again. Do not trust what DHT says. They're a tool for a broker, not a truck driver.

Cindy Tunstall: 50:32

So how are you finding your load? Are you using DHT, or what are you using to find when you're on the spot market, when you're in that situation where you're in a random city or something that you don't have a relationship with, how are you finding your loads?

Kyle Hutchinson: 50:47

I only do the same area every week, so I have 10 brokers that I know. About 50% of my current freight is from brokers. Sometimes my outbound freight is even a broker. It's just the way it works out. That week I will just call them. They send me load lists over in an email or they know me and they're saying, hey, we got this load coming up next week. Do you want it? It's like, yeah, I want it, because they know that I will deliver around time, that I will be there and they know what my target rate is. So they know not to call me if it's not at my target rate.

Cindy Tunstall: 51:23

Yeah, so you're completely off the load boards. You're not using load boards at all.

Kyle Hutchinson: 51:27

I don't pay. If it costs me money, I'm not paying for it because they're not. They're financially, they're not worth it. Now, I used to be a gypsy truck driver. I used to do all the 48 states and I used to be on every load board and that was one of the reasons why I wasn't making enough money to keep all my trucks, Because I was going off of the load board. I'd have my outbound load and they're like, hey, we need you to go from here down to Texas. It's like, yeah, cool, I'll do it. And then out of Texas, it's like, well, I guess I might as well go up to Colorado, because it pays 75 cents more a mile to do that than I did to go straight back to Indiana. And then I'd use another load board and then I would sign another broker and eventually it's like I make more money doing a dedicated route than I do being a gypsy and just going wherever the highest outbound load takes me.

Cindy Tunstall: 52:19

Yeah, same for me, and I, really early on in trucking I knew that I would not enjoy doing dedicated freight, like that would be hard on me and it is a little difficult on me but so much more profitable running dedicated freight. So I agree with you 100%. So I am a little bit of a gypsy soul, so it's very difficult for me. But, um, I'm running a lot of the same lane. So, um, but for that reason, because I have good relationships and my shippers are taking good care of me and, um, I don't, they know, like you said, they know my rate, they know what I'm. I don't have to haggle every time. We know and if it's not a good fit for me, they're not gonna. They're not gonna, you know, mess with me. So it's like it works out great, but it's like, yeah, I kind of a little bit miss being a gypsy.

Kyle Hutchinson: 53:03

Oh, I do too, because that's what I used to love to do, because the thought of driving on the same road, the same direction, the same way, seeing all the same stuff every day of the week maybe not want to drive truck, but when I realized that if I do this I can take more time off, so it's actually going to be better in the end, and that's what really matters is how much time can you pay to take off? You can do the thing you don't want to do.

Cindy Tunstall: 53:33

Yeah, that's exactly how I resolve it myself. I just get more time off, and it does afford me to have a little bit more flexibility in my scheduling, because the pay is just significantly higher, so I just can't turn it away.

Kyle Hutchinson: 53:50

So I have a question how do your shippers handle you not being there when you take time off? Because I like to take weeks off every month normally. Normally in November through March I might only work an average of one week a month, so how do your shippers handle that scenario?

Cindy Tunstall: 54:12

Well, I'm not working part-time like you are, kyle, I do take some time off but honestly it's a little bit of a risk. So I'm not working part time like you are, kyle, I do take some time off and I honestly it's a little bit of a risk. So I'm always a little bit concerned that I'm going to lose my shippers but, you know, lose my relationship or somebody might. You know, I had to take a couple weeks and then right after I had to take some more time off and they've just been really great. And I think you know, honestly I think everybody talks about, you know, cheap freight and it's so competitive is for shippers to find trustworthy drivers and truckers that take care of their equipment and are going to be on time, communicate well and do what they say they're going to do, and I think that that goes a long way. So you know, knock on wood, you know, so far that's been working for me. So you know, any time that I'm available they want to work with me and I'm really grateful.

Cindy Tunstall: 55:13

But it does make me nervous, though I mean, I can lie Sometimes. I'm like I'm sitting on a beach and I'm like, well, you know, I hope they still use me when I get back. But you know, sometimes you know family stuff comes up and you've got to take time off and I just do that because I want to prioritize my family. But you know, yeah, it's a good. My shippers have been really good in the brokers that I run steady for, you know, have been really um, taking good care of me. So, um, I'm grateful. So, knock on wood, so far, so far, so good.

Kyle Hutchinson: 55:47

So when I look for a shipper, I like to look for somebody who ships something out one time a month go into where I want to go. So that way, you know, I'd rather have 10 of those shippers than one shipper that wanted to ship out every single day of the week. How do you feel about that?

Cindy Tunstall: 56:05

Yeah, I guess I like that. I don't know, I have mixed feelings about that. I like the steady, because when I want to work and when I want to run, you know I'm like I want to be busy. So I don't know, I have mixed feelings about that, so I don't know, that's rough.

Kyle Hutchinson: 56:22

I mean, I was just looking at it from a standstill of again. I like to take time off. So if I can keep two shippers that ship out once a month, that's, you know, a little bit better. So other ones don't want to continue to work with me after that, because from March until October I will work seven days a week if I have to. So that's, I keep those every year. That's never a question about it. It's just the ones that are in my off time. That you know. That's what I like. It's just find the shipper that ships out once a month, twice a month, and you can be their guy. You'll be the first one they call. That's what I feel more comfortable with. Then if you lose one shipper, you don't lose 50% of your business. Yeah, yeah, I like to diversify.

Cindy Tunstall: 57:06

Well, I worry about that too, and myself I sometimes wonder, like, am I running for just so few people now, because I'm running regular? You know so many regular lanes. So, and it makes me, it does make me a little bit nervous. I think you need to say um, with a variety of shippers and brokers, so you know something happens to one, you know you lose that relationship for whatever reason. You have, you know another place to fall. So I think the variety is very wise actually. Well, tell me, about what do you run regular like? So what's your busy season? So what kind of freight are you running? What's your steady work?

Kyle Hutchinson: 57:44

I do LTL whiskey, so I'll do 6 to 12 stops a night oh, wow yeah, and then I'll do that 5 to 7 days a week and I will do that between March and October and that normally right now pays $3.59 a mile, plus fuel charge, plus stop pay. Wow, very nice, and that carries me through the rest of the year, and all my shippers know that they're like between this time and this time. He's gone Between this time and this time. We call him and he'll be here and then that is what gives me the ability to take off three weeks out of the month every month, and that way I don't got to deal with it.

Cindy Tunstall: 58:29

Yeah, that's nice. That's a sweet gig. I like that. Well, how are you doing your invoicing? Do you do factoring? We didn't talk about factoring. Do you do that? Are you doing your own invoicing?

Kyle Hutchinson: 58:44

I do my own invoicing.

Cindy Tunstall: 58:46

Yeah, I do too. I factored in the beginning and then I just slowly stepped away from it. I did it when my factoring company was like 2%, which I thought you know honestly. You know I was running so much variety of brokers and so I kind of thought in my head I was like you know, 2%, it's worth them doing it for me, honestly. But I kind of I hate all the administrative part of it. You know, I don't like that. So I didn't mind paying 2% and I had negotiated that rate to get down to 2%. So I thought you know, it's not worth it to stop. But then after a while I started running for the same handful of people. I was like there was never any worry that they weren't going to pay and I just thought I got to a place financially where I could just wait for that two-week 21-day payment to start rolling in and I just switched over and and I just switched over and it's been pretty great.

Kyle Hutchinson: 59:38

I mean again, I think factoring when you first start out wouldn't be the worst thing, but out of every three loads you haul, one of those loads shouldn't be factored more. And then you slowly start to rotate it out and that way you have a constant revenue coming in. I mean unless especially things to watch out for is if you're working with a broker and their quick pay option is we won't quick pay you unless you've hauled three loads for us, I would stay away from that broker. You really got to watch out for stuff like that. And one of those loads is check in with the factoring company, check in on DAT, what's their credit rating, and because some factoring companies will say, yeah, we're not going to pay that, so you can't really hold for them unless you want to take the chance yourself. So that's something to watch out.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:00:21

For I was new I really liked the idea of having my factory company be able to check credit for me, because I just wasn't sure about all of it. I was still learning the industry, so I kind of relied heavily on that and now I think I would. You know, dad always has a factory company they're partnering with. So they'll have a little check mark on there and they'll say I kind of just trust that. You know, if they feel like you know, they'll give them a pass. And I'm like oh, you're big, I'll trust your credit check. If it works for you, it'll work for me. But again, I'm not running spot market like that anymore. So I'm running with, just like you are just a handful of steady brokers. But in the beginning I relied on that being able to do a credit check. And you know, I was just so worried about getting burned by somebody and I wanted to get paid.

Kyle Hutchinson: 1:01:08

That's why you can go against their bond. So you know that's always a plus. And most brokerages have quick pay options and most of those quick pay options are going to be very competitive with a factoring company anyways. So if you're working for CH Robinson a lot, you can trust that and use their quick pay. You don't have to factor those. But if you're working for a broker that's only been in business for six months to two years, I would be a little leery of that, Especially because they probably only ship out two, three, four loads a month and that is where it gets a little nerve-wracking. Like, yeah, this is like a quarter of your monthly income right here while you're taking off this load, so you might want to be a little worried about that. If they don't get paid, you're definitely not getting paid.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:01:55

Yeah, that would make me nervous. It's like that's too shady, like I don't know. I'm like there's too many options out there. It's like I'm not going to take that risk. So anyway, it's all good. So I mentioned checking credit. When you go with direct shippers, do you have a way that you check if you have a new shipper, that you can check credit? Or how do you know if they're going to pay you? Because, say, you have this load that's going to pay you $2,000, but then you deliver and the shipper doesn't pay, and so obviously that was not such a good deal after all. So how?

Kyle Hutchinson: 1:02:30

do you go about knowing if a shipper is credit worthy? I'm being really honest, I have never checked a shipper's credit and I have never gotten a bad check from them.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:02:39

Okay, okay, that scares me, but okay, I'll share. I'll share for me, cause I haven't. I had just a little basic form that I had them fill out about their credit and I asked for references I think I found it online and um and asked their DUNS number so I could look up their um, their credit score there. And then I asked them for people you know, both um carriers that had shipped for them, and then also their banking references. And I just called and I honestly I wouldn't have done this early on, but I know to do this now. But I had considered for a while opening a brokerage and one of the things I had looked into was I know you need to make sure they're credit worthy. So I did a little bit of research for the broker side, because I was considering doing that for a minute, and so I learned that shippers that's very common practice and I don't think carriers you know drivers realize that that's a normal part of their transaction and each time I've asked if I could fill out a credit form, you know I give them my form. They don't even bat an eye. That's just totally normal in the industry that they would fill out a credit check. So you know, it's just the easy one little thing.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:03:42

And then they never felt. I never had anybody say what you don't trust me, you know. You know they never responded with offense. They go oh yeah, sure, hold on, I just have to. And sometimes they have to go through corporate or sometimes they had me send me down to accounting or send this email to somebody. But it was super quick and I just made a few phone calls and I'm like, yeah, these people are solid. So it was just a really easy way for me to have peace of mind that I didn't do that. Honestly, if I did not want to start a brokerage, I hadn't looked into that, I wouldn't have known that that's even such common practice. So anyway, that's a little tip for you there, kyle. So anyway, that's a little tip for you there, Kyle.

Kyle Hutchinson: 1:04:18

Have you ever did a credit check on a shipper and it came back as I'm not going to work with them? Or have you ever gotten stiffed on a load?

Cindy Tunstall: 1:04:25

No, I've never gotten stiffed on a load, but I always check credit, even when I run with brokers. I had a factoring company. I don't factor anymore, but when I did I would always check their credit. So I would never run for somebody that didn't have established credit, because to me I felt like it wasn't worth the risk. And, um, there's so many, so much shady stuff going on, I just thought I'm not gonna risk getting burned, and so I've. I've literally been paid 100% on every load that I've run in the last five years, so, um, I guess it's working for me. What about you? You been burned.

Kyle Hutchinson: 1:04:58

No, never.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:04:59

Okay, good, I like that. Okay, so let's talk about another. This is a controversial issue. Do you use a dispatcher to help you negotiate freight, or do you do all of that yourself?

Kyle Hutchinson: 1:05:16

I negotiate everything myself. I never sell a point in a dispatching service when they take 5, 10, 7, 15, 20% for something that I can do myself. Now if I wasn't good at talking with people or talking with brokers, or knew the inside and out of a brokerage, I might lean a little bit more towards using one, but I just don't think they're worth it in the end.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:05:41

Well, my concern always is so you know I do a great job for this. You know my company is, you know, secures this load and I do a great job. I show up on time, I secure the freight, maybe solve some problems, you know, and you know, save them some time and money. And you know, save them some time and money and you know I just do a great communicate, you know, with excellence, let them know where they are. There's no worries, everything's on time and I do this great job. And my dispatcher, you know, has booked that load for me and actually that load comes up again and I think a dispatcher has an opportunity to give that load to one of the other trucking companies and granted, fmcsa has, you know, said they're not supposed to be doing that, but you know they're still doing that. So, you know, I, I just like, why would I, why would I risk that relationship, not that that my good work.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:06:30

Coming back to you know them calling my dispatcher and my dispatcher potentially maybe giving that to another trucking company. The idea of that makes me crazy. And then I also hear these stories of this crazy batshit stuff. These dispatchers will go off on somebody and you know they'll tell them the truck's going to be there and the truck's, you know, hundreds of miles away. We talked about that in last week's show.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:06:52

But you know it's like it's so risky, like they're putting your reputation on the line. And you know it's like it's so risky, like they're putting your reputation on the line and you know you can get pissed and say, okay, that's it, I'm, I'm, I'm fire you. You know that's fine, there's go work for another truck company. There's no harm, there's no reputation damage for them. You know they're just going to go and get another carrier, but yet all of these marks, you know, maybe you get a freight guard or you know, maybe a broker decides to blackmail you and put you on the do not use list.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:07:19

And you know, so it's like to me it's so risky and it's such a I guess I wouldn't do it unless it was in-house, like if I had a fleet of trucks and I was, I could supervise and, you know, be monitoring the way that they're communicating on my behalf and having that dispatcher be only working for my fleet of trucks. So I'm just too. Maybe I'm just too controlling, but I think it's too important. So I'd be hesitant to do that myself, but I like to hustle and I like to negotiate. That's one of the favorite parts of the job for me.

Kyle Hutchinson: 1:07:50

I like talking with people and working out the deals. I would definitely say don't be afraid to get blackballed by a broker as not that big of a deal and most of the time it's because you're seeing your ground and you're getting what your truck is worth. So just a little point on that. But yeah, dispatchers, they really don't have the best interest of you, the trucker, in mind most of the time, I think, because I would much rather get that call from the broker saying hey, two weeks ago you did this load for us. Do you want to do another one again? Of course I do. Why wouldn't I? This is my rate. Okay, no problem, send it over Versus with a dispatcher, as you said. They can say yeah, we have a truck that can do that for you here. It isn't available right now, but this other truck will do it for you, no problem.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:08:37

Yeah, that would suck. Well, let's talk about when to expand your fleet. Like I know, you said that you had several trucks in the beginning. Your fleet has been bigger now down to one. How did you know when it was time to add more trucks and what made you make that decision, and maybe tell a little bit about what happened, what you learned from that experience?

Kyle Hutchinson: 1:09:01

Well, I can tell you, apparently I didn't know when to expand last week and that's why it didn't work out so well. If I had to redo it again, I would say, when you have a maintenance fund for your truck and the second truck, and then you have a maintenance fund for your truck and the second truck, and then you have an emergency fund to pay for all the expenses of that second truck as well, you should add a truck on and a driver. Try not to get anybody you know. Try not to get anybody that you don't want to fire, because you're going to have to fire three or four drivers before you find one good driver.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:09:39

And how do you go about finding a good driver? That's a good question.

Kyle Hutchinson: 1:09:44

It is a good question. If you're a small person, you're just looking for one driver, you will know somebody who knows somebody that can vouch for them and say, yeah, I know this guy, brian, he's a real good guy. He lives like 30 miles from you. He's looking for a job. That was my best luck, and, honestly, my best luck was training people and having them start out riding in the truck with me for six months, paying them the pay that they would get, and that way I knew they would take care of my equipment and handle it exactly how I would handle it. That's not for everybody, though, so I wouldn't recommend that, but that's how I had the best luck.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:10:22

Yeah, that's a big investment into your driver. So I can see I know most companies don't do that spend that kind of time with the driver before they let them have the keys. So that's a pretty big investment. I mean, it's a risk, You're giving them your truck and your reputation, so it's a good investment.

Kyle Hutchinson: 1:10:45

Well, anybody can keep up a charade for a couple of weeks when you're training them. Well, two or three months in, when they get tired, or they get mad, or they get cranky, or they just want to go home, or they're just over it, that's when you really see, you know it shines through of are they really going to be a good driver for your company or not?

Cindy Tunstall: 1:11:04

so somebody's been saving up their money, they've got the emergency fund. How do they know when they're ready to make that leap? What advice do you give, like as far as the readiness to make that leap, anything else that you would add for somebody considering making the jump?

Kyle Hutchinson: 1:11:21

If you do it, just do it. It's either going to work or it isn't, and you'll learn a valuable lesson about yourself in the end.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:11:30

Yeah, I like it, just do it.

Kyle Hutchinson: 1:11:34

I mean there's no, either you're going to do it or you're not. If you can afford to let your truck sit for six months with insurance on it to aid your DOT number, that would be amazing. But not a lot of people are going to have the ability to do that. But if you could, that would work out really well for you.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:11:52

Even now it's hard with new authorities Because even like, say, you let your authority age that in the past I think was the biggest deal you know, because you didn't have any time on your authority. But now they look for inspections. So even if you had your trucking authority for six months but you didn't have any inspections, I think you would still have the same struggle now with brokers. So again I would go back to the thing now with brokers. So again I would go back to the thing you got to be able to go into shippers and, you know, set up, make arrangements to haul freight, even before you know your authorities. You know active, start hustling and start looking for ways to you know relationships that you can haul.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:12:30

For I had a friend that started a trucking company that actually had freight lined up. They were, you know, hadn't even applied for their authority yet and they actually, like the shipper was like, yeah, I'd love to use you, but you know, go, go, get your own authority. You know, get a truck and come run with us. I'd love to work with you, and you know. So it's like you don't have to be the same model that everybody has followed, but you definitely have to be creative, and you definitely have to be willing to hustle and keep thinking outside the box about ways that you can set yourself apart from other people, because it's challenging, but not impossible, but challenging.

Kyle Hutchinson: 1:13:06

That is very true, Well.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:13:10

Kyle, you have a lot of wisdom and I know that our audience is going to wonder how that they can get in touch with you and if they have questions I mean, if you want to share your socials or do you want to how can people get in touch with you If they had questions they wanted to ask you, because I have a feeling there's going to be some people want to pick your brain.

Kyle Hutchinson: 1:13:29

They can reach out to the tall garage on Facebook and that's my Facebook group for my shop that I run. I do mechanic work and that's probably the best place to reach me If you have any questions regarding trucking.

Cindy Tunstall: 1:13:42

Thanks for coming on the show, Kyle. This was great. I learned a lot. This was a good conversation.

Kyle Hutchinson: 1:13:47

Thank you.

Brian Wilson: 1:13:50

I appreciate that. One thing is quite clear there's no one-size-fits-all path in trucking. Some drivers thrive as independent owner-operators, managing their own business, while others enjoy the freedom yeah, I said freedom of being a company driver. You drive, you deliver your freight, you don't have to worry about the stress of taxes, breakdown costs, payroll and all of that. The key is knowing what works for you. That's the important part. Hey, huge thanks to Kyle Hutchinson for sharing his insights. If you want to connect with him, check out the Tall Garage Facebook group Link is in the show notes.

Brian Wilson: 1:14:27

Starting a trucking company is a big decision. Cindy knows how overwhelming it can be. That's why she put together a detailed guide with all the steps to help make the process easier. And remember, as always, we're just sharing our opinions here. Nothing we share is meant to replace professional counseling, and that doesn't mean a shrink. I'm talking about lawyers. That is specific to your needs. If you'd like a copy of the steps to starting a trucking company, just click the send us a text link in the show notes and send Cindy your email address. She'll send it over when she's not trucking. If you found this episode valuable, do us a favor share it with a fellow driver. They may need to hear this too. Let's help each other level up and don't forget. New episodes drop on the 1st and the 15th, so hit that subscribe and keep rolling with us. Well, as always, guys, I'm Brian Wilson, your old hand with a new plan reminding you to keep learning, keep growing, keep asking questions and, most of all, keep enjoying life. Otr Until next time. Thank you, thank you.