Should Canada ban all kids from social media?

Three months ago, Australia became the first country in the world to ban social media for kids under the age of 16. Many other governments are now eyeing the same idea, including Greece, Denmark, Malaysia and Norway.

Should Canada legislate a similar social media ban?

Prime Minister Mark Carney said he hasn’t made up his mind just yet, but he agreed it’s an issue that “merits an open and considered debate.”

As we wait to hear what the federal government decides, it’s the perfect time to revisit our recent podcast interview with a leading expert on teens and screens: Katherine Martinko, an author, public speaker and contributing columnist at The Globe and Mail.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:16

It's another installment of Closer Look on this Wednesday, the 18th day of March, across the Village Media Network and wherever you get your favorite podcasts, welcome back. I'm Scott Sexmith. Frisco has the night off this evening, but he'll be back here tomorrow night. Three months ago, Australia became the first country in the world to ban social media for kids under the age of 16. Since then, numerous other countries, Canada included, have said they're considering a similar law. Earlier this month, Prime Minister Mark Carney said he hasn't made up his mind on whether a ban should be implemented, but he said it's an issue that, quote, merits an open and considered debate. As we wait to hear what the government decides, it's the perfect time to revisit our recent interview with a leading expert on teen screen time, Katherine Martinko, an author, public speaker, and contributing columnist at the Globe and Mail. Kids and smartphones, when is the right time to give them one? Or is there ever a good time? There's definitely no shortage of opinions on this topic and no shortage of arguments between parents and their kids. Our guest tonight is someone who has given plenty of thought to this contentious issue and even wrote a fantastic book about a childhood unplugged practical advice to get kids off-screens and find balance. Catherine Martinko, thanks for uh taking some time to chat with us. Uh, good to see you again.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

All right, uh, for those who may not remember, uh, Catherine was our guest uh on a podcast a couple of years ago. At that point, uh her son was 14 years old and he wasn't allowed to have a cell phone. And then this week I opened the Globe and Mail, and there's a column from Catherine talking about how her son is now 16 and finally got that cell phone. Catherine, what changed?

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Yeah, well, it's a question that he's been giving to me for years. I'm sure many parents can relate to this. The kids are just relentless asking, when can I get a phone? And for the longest time, I just said I didn't know. And it was a truthful answer. Um, I really didn't know. I just knew that it wasn't time yet. And even when I wrote my book, I had explained that, you know, my sons are growing up and I still didn't quite have a firm answer. I was waiting for enlightenment to strike, if you will. Um, and then it did. It came in the form of an interview that I heard with Dr. Jean Twengi, who's a social psychologist at San Diego State University and a work colleague of mine. We both are working in this uh sphere of how to deal with kids in tech. And she has three teenage daughters. And she explained that she feels that giving a kid a smartphone should be on par with getting a driver's license in terms of the level of maturity that's required to handle one. And this just made perfect sense for me. Uh, she explained that 16 is significantly older than 14, which is the age recommendation made by Dr. Jonathan Haidt in The Anxious Generation, which is already a lot older than what many kids are getting their smart their first smartphones at. But as she pointed out, there's a great deal of maturity that happens between 14 and 16. There's a real a reason why we don't put kids behind the wheel of a car at the age of 14. Their risk assessment abilities improve drastically over that two-year period. Uh, they can cause a lot of harm to themselves and to other people, even inadvertently, both behind the wheel of a car or with a smartphone in their hands. So it's just trying to, you know, create these friction between kids and this very powerful device that can do many wonderful things, don't get me wrong, but we're just trying to delay access, wait for them to gain that little bit of extra maturity to be able to handle it in a way that doesn't cause harm to themselves or to other people.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

So I have to ask the uh question, uh, Catherine, what did your uh son think of the column?

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Well, he wasn't super thrilled. I mean, he's heard me talk about this a million times, so he's pretty used to it. Um, but yeah, when we, as I explained in the column, it's not a free-for-all when you give your kid a smartphone at the age of 16. Ideally, um, you know, we gave a contract, we we explained to him, by we, I mean my husband and me. We explained to him uh the rules. So there's expectations for use, there's clear consequences laid out for violation of those rules. Uh so we own the phone, we have the password, we can do sporadic checks at any point without needing to give him a heads up. Um, he is not allowed to have social media still. That's another um line that we draw on the sand. Gene Twenge adheres to the same thing. Also, John Height encourages waiting on social media as long as you possibly can. And the one big one is he's not allowed to take it to school. And I'll add, actually, not taken into his bedroom at night. So those are kind of two big rules that um I think, again, add that friction that's needed to just have a healthier relationship with the device.

SPEAKER_03 4:42

I respect that so much because that having that healthy relationship is the key term. We we fight that same fight. Our sons are exactly the same age. And I follow some of those rules. I'm a big believer. The phone's mine. I get into it, I have the password, I read it all the time, I see what's going on, but I haven't gone as far as you. Maybe I don't have the guts, but he's on different social media apps. Uh, he does take it to school, which drives me bonkers. We're gonna talk a little bit about that later, too, about the the what happens at school. Um, but I think what I guess what I want to ask you, Catherine, is people might hear this anymore and think, oh, you're totally anti-technology, anti-self. That's not the case. It's about finding that balance here, right? That's the key. Can you speak to that?

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah, absolutely. So I tell people I'm not anti-tech, believe it or not. Uh, I very much uh love modern technology. It's enabling this entire conversation that we're having right now. It has made my career happen. But I see it as a very powerful tool. It is not a toy, it should not be our children's primary form of entertainment. And we need to teach them to respect this tool and to use it in wise ways. So I think that with that comes modeling very good habits as parents, not constantly using the technology. With it comes delaying access. So again, that age 16 comes into play here. So we don't have trouble age gating all kinds of different things in the world for our kids. We don't let our kids buy alcohol, we don't let them gamble, we don't let them jump out of airplanes to go skydiving or go get tattoos, do all kinds of things. And even though there's a broad spectrum of children's ability, I mean, I'm certain there's probably 10-year-olds who could do some of those things, and there's 20-year-olds who can't. We are comfortable with selecting an average age at which most children are capable of doing these things and sticking with that. And so I think that that's something that we very much need to start doing more of uh with our teenagers and just saying this is the age at which we think most kids are prepared to handle this device. There will be expect exceptions to that rule. I totally understand it. For sure. You know, it doesn't hurt to pick an age.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

Absolutely. It makes total sense. The column makes sense. If you haven't read it, you should check it out. It's in the globe. Uh everything it ran on Monday. It was great. Um, I just like to know before we get into some specific questions, the book was obviously excellent. It came out a couple of years ago. Well, how what's it meant to you? Obviously, you're doing some other things now as well, besides being an author.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yeah, the book has led to some fantastic opportunities. Um, I was contacted last year by Jonathan Haidt at the Anxious Generation campaign, and I've become a speaker on behalf of his organization. So I do quite a bit of traveling around Canada and the United States, giving presentations to audiences of all sizes about practical strategies for getting kids off of devices. So I've really been enjoying that and then writing a monthly column for the Globe and Mail newspaper as well. And I'm working on my second book, which will be coming out uh next November, 2026.

SPEAKER_03 7:10

Give us a give us a preview. What's it about? For sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Well, it's looking at the role of the parent and how do we basically build a world. Why we suck at being parents? Far from it. I don't want to be judgmental. I think parents need to feel empowered. So many parents are feeling very overwhelmed right now with this situation and they feel it's too late, that they can't claw back the technology that they've already introduced. And I feel like they shouldn't. There's so much that a parent can do right now to make a difference in their child's life. It's never too late to reevaluate the rules surrounding screen time in your home. So the the next book will get a little bit more into depth about um that layer of the solutions that we need. Because, as you know, this is a very complex problem. We need solutions at all kinds of different levels. Um, parents are the grassroots, they're the foundational level, they're the gatekeepers uh when it comes to their kids.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

All right. So the uh first book really delves into this. But for parents with kids who desperately want a device, uh, what's the one thing they can do today to push back without isolating uh their child socially?

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Yeah, well, that is the big question. And that is why so many parents are inclined to give their child a smartphone prematurely because they are worried that their child is not going to be able to communicate with their friends. So I would say while you're holding out for that age 16, or maybe it's going to be 14, whatever it may be, you have to come up with alternatives for your child to be able to communicate with friends. So you're not trying to prevent that communication from happening, you're just trying to find workarounds. So in the case of my family, we have a landline. Uh that might sound a little bit archaic, but um I know many families that have reintroduced landlines into their homes. A more um tech-savvy solution that we have is my kids can log into a desktop computer using an Apple ID and they can send iMessages to their friends. And most of their friends have iPhones. So this has never gotten in the way of them having independent individual texts or even group chats. They get their fair share of ridiculous memes and videos, believe me. So they're getting a lot of that, but it's restricted to a physical location. It is on that computer. It's not living in their pocket, accessible every single minute of the day. So that's been a good workaround. They could borrow my phone anytime they needed to call a friend or FaceTime someone. Um, and I just encourage them to make plans in person. They see their friends at school, they can decide to meet up, they can come home, tell me, and then go off to their friends' house and uh meet with them. So I think that, you know, waiting till 14 really is not, or 16. It's really not as dramatic a delay as it seems. Those years are here before you know it. And you suddenly realize that those years of pushing back and trying to come up with these slightly less convenient workarounds, but still effective options really isn't as challenging as it may seem.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

That's right. As if you as you've made the point, you only get these years once, right? You only get to be a kid once. I mean, there are days I wish I could be a kid again and not worry about the stuff that we worry about. You do mention parents being the grassroots, that they're the number one, they're the first gatekeepers. But then there's other things like schools, for example. I want to get your thoughts on the Ontario quote unquote cell phone ban. I mean, I don't really think there is a cell phone ban from what I could tell from what's going on in my kids' high school. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Yes, well, I think the quotation marks are key here. Uh I do not think that you can call something a ban if kids are still allowed to carry it on their person. Yes. Uh, it seems a little bit insipid and a bit feeble. And certainly now that it's been in place for over a year, uh, that is quite evident. I hear anecdotally from my own kids and I hear from friends who are teachers. And of course, I've read many articles uh that talk about how it has been rolled out, but generally it's ineffective. Uh kids can still excuse themselves from class, they can go to the bathroom, they can spend a lot of time on their phones. Um, one of my kids' friends has a whole gaming computer that he carries every single day and sets it up at the back of the class and just plays. Uh, you know, they're all snapping their Instagramming, they're TikToking, they're doing it all in class. So really, it is worthless. The only meaningful form of a ban is one that physically uh separates children from their devices for the duration of the school day. So kids should not be able to access their phones from 9 a.m. until 3:30 at the end of the day. Some schools that are even more progressive are banning phones even during extracurricular sports and activities after school. So kids can't even get it back until 5:30 or 6 o'clock at night when they leave the premises. Uh so there's different options, there's different ways to implement that. Some schools in the US, a few in Canada, are using magnetic pouches. Um, but others are just straight up banning phones. There was one headmaster at a private boys' school in Texas a few weeks ago who banned phones and then purchased a metal grinder that he set up on his desk and said that if he found a single phone on the premises, he was going to grind it up. And he had all the parents warned, wrote a letter, had warned the students, and he hasn't had a single infraction since. So this is not an impossible standard. I'm not advocating for the widespread destruction of the city.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Oh, I am. I think that's a great idea. That's perfect. I mean, what the hell? Might as well bring back the strap. Yeah. That's great.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Well, I do say in my talks, we wouldn't let our kids set up personal TVs on their desks.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

You're right.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

We wouldn't let them walk into class with a TV. And yet when we let them go in with a smartphone, it really isn't that much different. No.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

Catherine, I'm wondering uh from the time you know that your son was maybe 14, 15 until he he got his phone uh back in the summer when he turned 16. Was there ever a moment that you and and your husband kind of said, and and and you wanted to cave, but didn't? Did did that thought ever cross your mind?

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Not seriously. I think every parent wants to please their child. It's distressing to you as a parent if your child is upset with you. Um, but it's not my job to please my child. It's not my job to be their friend. It is my job to do what I know to be best for them. And I do have to remind myself, I mean, it sounds very easy the way I'm talking about it and you know, now, but it's hard. It's not easy to go against the status quo and to be the parent who's sort of inflicting this unorthodox philosophy on a child who then has to go out into the world and be the one who faces his friends and is the one without the phone and has to actually live out my philosophy on a day-to-day basis. Uh, so I think that that's that's hard. It is a burden of sorts to place on a child. But as I've explained to my children, families choose to do many things differently for various reasons. Like there are kids who are vegetarian, who can't eat meat and have to turn that down. There's kids who dress differently because of religious adherence, uh, and they're gonna stand out in their class as well. And you just teach your child that that is part of our philosophy. That is how we approach our life as a family. And for me, this is a philosophical thing. Um, I happen to know too much when it comes to technology and the negative effects of excessive screen time and constant access to smartphones on teenagers and well and younger children as well. So um, I found solace in the knowledge and in the science and in the research and also in providing the workarounds. So always ensuring that, you know, I could loan him my phone, I could give him another option if he really needed to communicate with someone, um, drive him places. I would really encourage lots of in-person hangouts, uh, sort of offset any sense of isolation that might occur.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Absolutely. And I'm sure you're gonna delve into this in your next book, and I can't wait to read that one. But that notion you mentioned of pleasing your kids, it drives me crazy. Because that's not our job, is to please our kids, right? That wasn't my grandmother's job to please her kids. Her job was to raise her kids and make sure they had food to eat and they learned how to exist in this brutal world we live in. Is that part of we we've almost gone way too far, right, Catherine?

SPEAKER_01 14:10

I would say so. I think it's uh to be clear, it's well-intentioned. You know, parents want to connect with their children. And I think that we do have, in many ways, better relationships than perhaps previous previous generations did. Um, but it's true that many parents want to be their child's friend. And I don't think that that does their child any favors because a child's job, especially teenager, is to push up against boundaries, to test those limits. And children ultimately want to know that someone is in charge, that someone is looking out for them and that they can trust that person to, you know, hold the line when it is needed. Um, I've had conversations recently with Dr. Jean Twenge about this. Um, and she agrees that certainly um this generation of parents has been raised to see everyone is equal, even their own children. And that loss of social hierarchy within the family can be quite harmful to some kids in a developmental sense. And so there's nothing wrong with reclaiming that authority, especially when it comes to technology and sort of asserting the fact that you are in charge. Uh, you understand the situation a lot better than your child does. You know that it affects their development more than it hurts you as an adult who has a fully formed prefrontal cortex and other well-established lifestyle habits that will hopefully override the urge to just doom scroll. Um, and so you are well positioned to be able to make these decisions on behalf of your kid and it won't ruin them. If anything, you are giving them back a chance to reclaim their time and their attention. You're giving them a chance to have that childhood that they are entitled to have and that many kids are tragically missing out on right now.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

Exactly. Absolutely. All right, uh, let's Chef Gears and uh talk about Australia for a moment. Uh back on the uh 10th of this month, Australia kicking millions of kids uh off social media. This move uh will prevent anyone under the age of 16 from accessing their existing profiles and communities and signing up for new accounts on Wait for It, 10 different platforms. Uh Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, uh, Snapchat Threads X, YouTube, Kick, Twitch, and Reddit. Australia's e-safety uh commissioner has said the list will change, of course, uh as technology evolves. Uh, Catherine, what's your take on this move?

SPEAKER_01 16:08

I think it's great. I think that this is they're setting a precedent. And I hope that the rest of the world will be playing, paying close attention to see how it rolls out and hopefully doing the same thing. Uh, there's it's it's drastic in the sense that no one's actually done this, no one has actually changed the law and kicked kids off of all of these platforms, but it's it's not drastic in the sense that it aligns with the science. So two years ago, the U.S. Surgeon General issued an official advisory against social media and said, we do not have adequate evidence to determine whether or not these platforms are safe for our children. And the general consensus among many experts is to keep kids off it at least until the age of 16, if not even 18. In fact, the longer you delay, the better the mental health outcomes for many kids. So I think that what Australia is doing is just common sense. Um, I think that there will be loopholes. I mean, the critics say kids are still going to find their ways back onto these platforms, and maybe they will, but I don't think that that matters. It doesn't have to be perfect. You cannot be so caught up in it being perfect in order to avoid the progress that can actually happen. And I think the message that's being sent is powerful to children. And it also is going to give parents something that they can lean on because a lot of parents, like we discussed earlier, are uncomfortable with that sense of authority and telling their kids no when so many other parents are saying yes. And so now that they are backed by a law, they might feel a lot more comfortable saying, no, you're not going to be on these platforms. And to think of it almost as pressing pause, you know, this is not forever. These kids will be back on these platforms at some point. It's just recognizing that it's not benefiting them right now at the age that they're at, with the kind of content that is that proliferates on these platforms, and that they just have to wait until they're that much more mature and ready to be able to handle it. So I'm a big fan and I hope that we see it in a lot more countries soon.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

Yeah, maybe in Canada. What strikes strikes me about this couple things. One is that it's happening right as they go on their two-month uh school break, right? Right. And there's kind of this fear and loathing around, oh my what my goodness, what are people gonna do? Like as if there's nothing fun to do in a beautiful place like Australia. And second of all, that the there's kind of a guide put out by Australia's e-safety commission basically helping people to prepare, young kids prepare for this with advice like explore other ways to connect and belong, build your community, go outside, hang out with people. It's it's refreshing to read that. It's a little sad in a way that we have to get to the point when someone has to write that down because no one had to write that down for us when we were kids. But it is refreshing to see, I think, Catherine.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Yeah, I would agree. And I've read through the whole guide. I think that they had some really great pointers there, just common sense advice that it almost makes you realize it's ridiculous that no one's saying this to the kids, you know, before this. And the fact that it's happening in summer, I think is good too. You know, um, boredom, I often talk about in my work, is a profoundly rich and creative state for kids. And kids have to be bored and they have to sit in that state of temporary tension and discomfort in order to move through it and get to the other side. Um, and on the other side exists all kinds of fun things, you know, new hobbies, new interests, new relationships and friendships and experiences. So I think that doing this to the kids, you know, in the at the beginning of their summer break could potentially set them up to have the best summer of their lives. Not for everyone. I'm sure it's gonna hurt. There's gonna be a letdown, a come down that happens, just it's sort of tied to the addictive nature of the way that these platforms are designed. But we are opening the door for them to discover all kinds of other opportunities, which is fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Uh Catherine, could we could we do this here? And and have you talked to uh any politicians here in Canada about implementing the same kind of program?

SPEAKER_01 19:30

That's a great question. I have not spoken with anyone here. I think that this is such a novel concept. Everyone's holding their breath and just kind of waiting to see what happens. I don't see why it wouldn't work. I think that many parents would welcome uh legislative change. And and that's one of the things I talk about in my presentations when I referenced earlier the various levels of change that we need. So we do need the high-level change. We need legislative changes, we need new laws, we need to um, you know, raise the age of internet adulthood to access social media, which is exactly what Australia is doing. That's something we need. That takes a long time to roll out. We also need to hold tech companies accountable, uh, which I think that this law is also going to do somewhat. It's going to encourage the tech companies to re-examine how they design their products and how they roll them out. And then we need schools to participate, and then we need parents. So there's there's all these different levels. Um, and it's just really great to see the high-level changes starting to come into play.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Uh, when you're on the uh speaking circuit, I know there is a uh powerful quote from a 15-year-old that you like to uh reference uh when you're giving talks. Uh, can you share that with us?

SPEAKER_01 20:30

So it's a young 15-year-old boy who says that he has no hobbies, interests, goals, or ambitions, and all he does is waste time on his phone. Um, so at the at the very end, I just I pull out this final line. I say, so the boy is saying, My screen time is almost 11 hours a day, and I just feel like crying myself to sleep. How do I stop this crippling addiction that I have with my phone? And this just hits me every single time because I mean, my automatic reaction to him is, where are his parents? I don't know where his parents are. Um, I don't know this boy's backstory, but this is a kid who is crying out for adult guidance, for boundaries, um, you know, guardrails in his life. Someone to step in and basically say, enough is enough. You've got to get off this device and you need to have a chance at living and discovering yourself and getting to know who you are instead of just consuming everyone else's memories and ideas of what a good life may be. Um, so that sort of reflects this idea that that I have, also based on the conversations I've had with many teenagers, that the kids want help too. So this is not just something we're inflicting on them as adults, although we certainly have the right to do that, I think, in this context. But many kids describe sort of this vague, nebulous sense that they're missing out. They don't know what it is because they don't have the benefit of retrospection, like we do as adults. They don't know what it's like to grow up in a space without these devices constantly competing for their attention. But they have the right to experience that and they want it on some level. And I think that they'll understand how beautiful it is if we give them the opportunity to discover that.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

For sure. We're gonna let you go in a moment. We appreciate all the time you've given us. I do want to ask you you've become A more high-profile figure on this file and talking and being public about it. Do you get some haters out there? I even notice in the Globe call, there's some people kind of, you know, with some sarcastic remarks to what you say. Do you get that a lot or is it pretty minimal?

SPEAKER_01 22:12

It's pretty minimal, to be honest. I think that, especially at my talks, I'm lucky in that people who come to hear me speak are looking for advice. They're looking for some guidance. They're looking for empowerment and inspiration. Um, people who are not worried about their kids' screen time habits are probably not listening to this message. And that's fine. I'm not out to convince them that they're doing things wrong. Each family has to figure out how they how they want to live and how they want to raise their kids. But I'd say the vast majority are relieved. They feel heard, they feel um validated. I often have very emotional exchanges with audience members after my talks, people who come up and, you know, there's hugs, there's tears. You know, people are just feeling very overwhelmed and glad to have someone to talk to. So for the most part, I think that the time is ripe for this national conversation, international conversation for that matter. And people are desperately looking for guidance. And I hope I can offer some help. I know that I'm I talk about what I'm doing with my own kids, I talk about the research. Uh, and I hope that it sparks a conversation that doesn't end with mine.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

All right, good stuff. Uh, before we let you go, Catherine, uh, any final words of advice or anything else that we should know?

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Well, uh, I I would just reiterate it's never too late. Uh, you know, you can feel totally bogged down and overwhelmed by your kids' screen time habits. But I think that, you know, every little difference that you can make at home can, you know, affect change, can be a positive um influence in your kids' life. And don't give up. You know, you've got limited time to really make the most these years with your children. Uh, so don't be afraid to make those changes if you are feeling like you want to.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

All right, very well said. The uh current book is called Childhood Unplugged: practical advice to get kids off screens and find balance. Uh, Catherine, remind us again when book number two is out.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

It'll be out in November 2026.

SPEAKER_02 23:53

All right, looking forward to it. Book you for the podcast again, Catherine. Darn right. We will. Wonderful. It'll be a great read. Uh, always great to see you, Catherine. Thanks for your time tonight. Our thanks again to Catherine Martinko for the conversation. That's all for Closer Look this Wednesday. Reach out anytime at CloserLook at villagemedia.ca and subscribe to our nightly newsletter at closerlookpodcast.ca. Tonight's show was produced by Zach Tronzo for all of us at Village Media. Thanks for watching. We'll see you tomorrow night at seven, right here on Closer Look.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Fresco and Scott's wardrobe, provided in part by Moore's Sault Ste. Marie.