As retail theft soars, some businesses are eyeing drastic measures

A recent report found that retail crime in Canada “has escalated into a national crisis” that costs businesses across the country a whopping $9-billion a year.

The situation is so dire in Winnipeg that some businesses are considering drastic measures — including asking customers to hand over their ID before they shop, or demanding that diners pre-pay for food.

On tonight’s episode of Village Media’s Closer Look podcast, we revisit a timely interview with Rui Rodrigues, a loss prevention advisor at the Retail Council of Canada.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:18

Welcome back to Closer Look Across the Village Media Network and wherever you get your favorite podcast. With Michael Friscolenti, our editor in chief. I'm Scott Sexmith. Welcome to the program, everyone. March 20th. Welcome to spring.

SPEAKER_03 0:31

It's officially you wouldn't know it's still looking outside here. It's something. I had my big boots on. I was almost slipping and falling out there.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Oh my goodness. 1046 this morning. It arrived, and certainly here in northern Ontario, expecting up to uh 12 centimeters over the weekend.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

And just to point out what a good guy Scott is, he actually put a message in our office chat this morning warning people to be careful as they walked things. It was so slippery.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Wasn't that this morning? And the temperature was at minus two. There was a lot of slush. Happy spring. And it just I was, you know, kind of slipping and sliding. Perfect spring. You're going to get three weeks of golfing before the winter comes back, I think.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Let's hope it's more than a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

There is good news, though, Scott. Yes, there is. Take it away.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

Yes. Today was the uh announcement of the National Newspaper Award nominations. Uh in our world, in our industry, it's a very prestigious award. The National Newspaper Awards have been around for a long time, uh honoring the best in uh in printed journalism. Um we have two nominations. Our team at Village has two nominations. I'm gonna take my glasses off so I can read it. So you can read it better. I do the same. I know, I know. Um Our team at the Trillium, who we talk about all the time on this show, Jessica Smith Cross, Charlie Pinkerton, and Jack Howen were nominated for the John Wesley Defoe Award for politics for their relentless coverage, is the best way to describe it, of uh power and influence in Ontario politics, uh namely all the scoops and all their research into the Skills Development Fund, who's getting funding based on what political connections they have. So it's their series and their ongoing coverage of this that has been nominated for this award. So that's a huge honor. Uh only three other only three people are nominated for this award, uh three uh teams of journalists. And to be to be in that group is pretty special. So a huge shout out to them. Our listeners and our viewers obviously know all those faces pretty well because they come on the show quite a bit. Absolutely. Talk about different issues issues. So we're super proud of the team at the Trillium, uh, our group at Queen's Park, so congrats to them. And then we have on the flip side, we have one of our great local journalists. We have 27 local news sites across the province. Sudbury.com is one of our biggest and best and longest running. Uh and Jenny Lamutt is uh a wonderful human being uh and a great reporter. Uh she's uh she's at uh Sudbury.com. And she was nominated for the Core Hind Award for Local Reporting for exposing the plight of seniors who had left stranded by broken elevators in these apartment buildings in Sudbury. Uh and of course, how the landlords and city officials were basically doing nothing to fix the problem. So imagine you have like a bunch of senior citizens living for weeks on end without an elevator in their bills. If you live up on the 10th or 12th floor, how are you gonna get downstairs to go grocery shop? And she she too was relentless. She kept reporting on this story and made lots of headlines in Sudbury, uh, and she covered every angle of it. And so to see her name in there, nominated for a national newspaper award is pretty special. So, you know, I I think I say this all the time uh when I were on here, but it is a grind what we do. It is it's not heroic, we're not doctors, we're not saving lives, but we're really committed to telling the truth about what's happening in our communities, what's happening in the province. And we're we are we're we do it 24-7. We are always thinking about this job. We get phone calls in the middle of the night, we get tips all the time, um, and to take us on crazy adventures and the stuff that we're working on. Um, but it's super rewarding. And we don't think about awards, we don't do it for awards, and I'm not nominated for this award, but I'm so proud because this is a team that I work with. And to see their names on there, uh the National Newspaper Awards is not a small thing, to be honest. So huge congrats to all of them. And uh I think they'll both they'll all win, but I don't want to say that. Well, I just I guess I just did.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

As you did. Uh but as they say, it is uh an honor just to be nominated. Absolutely. Uh before we get to uh tonight's program, uh quick question. Did you watch uh Pierre Polyev on Joe Rogan?

SPEAKER_03 4:15

It's funny, I haven't watched it yet, but I've read tons about it. Because I wanted all the different people saying, Well, you hear the big takeaways from the interview. I know Justin Ling and the Toronto Star had some things to say about Pierre Polyev. But uh you watched it, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:26

I watched most of it. Uh it's a completely different Pierre Polyev uh than what we have been used to uh over the past uh number of years. Um I was impressed uh overall with his performance. I like the fact that he was very respectful of the Prime Minister. Uh and I think you and I have talked about this. I think there is deep down there is a mutual respect between the two of them. Uh in fact, he said to Rogan that while he's in the U.S., he has been texting with the Prime Minister to get him apprised uh of what he's doing down there. Also interesting when Rogan pressed him on uh Alberta separating uh possibly from Canada, uh Polyev shut that down right away and said it's not going to happen. Uh of course, born and raised uh in Alberta, he knows that they're a hard-working, uh, you know, passionate uh crew of Albertans out there. Um but he said there's no way that it's going to happen. Uh and he also had some choice words for the president. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

Yeah, it was interesting. I think I read that uh he he said that he wishes Donald Trump would knock that shit off when he was talking about um the Canada becoming the 51st state. So he's pretty honest about that. There was also a moment I read about that I think um uh Rogan Challenger talked about this, you know, long-standing rumor that Fidel Castro is actually Justin Trudeau's father. And I'm gonna say it because it was on the podcast. Yeah. And uh he shut that down right away and said that's not true. Uh didn't buy into those, you know, kind of conspiracy theories that are going around. Um look, Paulie Ev has been honest about this, uh speaking with Peter Mansbridge a couple weeks ago, just about how they're gonna try things a little differently, right? Um he's gonna do a lot more speaking to people, a lot more uh maybe showing himself a little more, right? And uh, you know, I'm not a political strategist or even a political expert, but you know, Carney's gonna be there for a little while. So there's a bit of a runway here for Polyev, right? To to sort of show America, show Canadians who he is, maybe in a different way than people know him, right? And uh it is it it is interesting that that relationship too. I've never really heard uh prime minister and an opposition leader kind of talk about each other in that way. They but there is a mutual respect there, right? And I guess they both exist in that political arena where you don't really know what that's like to be in the spotlight, to be the prime minister, to be the leader of the opposition, unless you're actually in that job. It's quite a spotlight on you. Um I am gonna watch it over the weekend um and listen to glean some more things from it. But uh it's certain if it was to do one thing, it it's gotten attention. I mean it's everywhere. It's all everybody was talking about yesterday. Well, it's the biggest podcast in the world. Yeah, and biggest podcast in the world. Well, second biggest, isn't it? Well, aren't we the biggest? Have you been lying to me? Have you been lying to me the whole time? The numbers don't lie. Zach, is he not telling me the truth? So yeah, I mean it is, and and it did get uh I think it was a line story for a time in every major news organization in Canada. People wanted to know what he was saying. So uh I think it's uh it'd be interesting to know. Do we know like does are those numbers public? Do we know how many people I guess it's on YouTube, right? So what's the viewership?

SPEAKER_02 7:19

I think I I I don't know specifically, but I saw a line where it was something like ten times the audience that the CBC would ever achieve. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. Yeah. That's I guess yeah, that's that's fair to say. But is it close to ours? It's I mean Joe is catching it. We have more followers, don't we, though, on YouTube? It's close.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

I feel you guys have really been lying to me. It's neck and neck.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Uh you talk about the runway uh that he has, depending on how these three upcoming by-elections go and whether or not there's any more floor crossing.

SPEAKER_03 7:46

It could be three years with uh uh three more years with Kearney. It could be. And so that gives that's some time to kind of reboot and reset and figure out. And and uh you know, we're all kind of really nervous right now about what's gonna happen in the economy. We're all we're talking about it every day. We are so who even know who even knows where the country will be a year from now in terms of job losses, in terms of the state of the economy. Yeah. And and so there's just what when the by the time the next election happens, it's gonna be a different lot of different things going on here, I think. All right, good stuff. It was the last thing I'll say was interesting. I think it was it was Justin Ling and the Toronto Star who basically made the point of like we often are told that politicians don't have two and a half hours to sit and have a long, a lengthy, in-depth, you know, nuanced conversation about things. Well, they do. They do. I mean, obviously, yes, you make time, I guess, for the big the second biggest podcast in the world. In the world. The biggest podcast in the world. Yeah. But but it's the truth, right? We were we're so often told that no one's available to talk. Yeah. Um well, they can talk and they're very good at it, and they're capable of showing that they're a lot like us. They're a lot like everybody else. They can they're sit and have a conversation. And you're gonna love the part about the Apple. I will. That's all I'm gonna say.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Oh, I will I'm looking forward to that. You're gonna love that part. All right. Uh Dan Schulman, by the way, from Rogers Blue Jays Baseball joining us uh Monday at seven. Okay, let's do it. That's exciting. That is very exciting. Opening day. Six days away. Well, a week today at Rogers Center.

SPEAKER_03 9:11

Is it? Friday.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:13

They're not opening on Thursday? I don't believe so. We're opening on Thursday. All right, we as the Detroit Tigers are opening on Thursday. You know, it's interesting back to Pauliev, because what we're gonna talk about today is something that Pierre Poliev would definitely have a lot of opinions on. It's about it's about retail theft in this country and the crime rate, how much that particular crime has gone up. Um, we've talked about this uh on the past in the past on the podcast. I'm gonna take my glasses off again so I can see this tiny printing that I put off. We had uh Rui Rodriguez from the Retail Council of Canada was here. He's actually been on the show a couple times. Yeah. And he's a very intelligent guy and knows this issue inside out. And what we've seen in the last five or so years is just this huge growth in organized retail crime where it's not just petty shoplifting. It's like this is their industry. These guys are going into these stores, they're getting big ticket items, they're getting it at scale, they're going back and they're reselling it. So it's a huge criminal operation. I think we had them on once to talk about didn't someone stole a million,$1.3 million of booze from the LCBO, right? And so it's kind of continued to be in the headlines. In Winnipeg, actually, uh a couple business owners were in the Winnipeg Winnipeg Free Press talking about how they're considering some measures, including asking customers to show ID when they come in their store, like give their ID. Like if you're gonna shop here, give us your driver's license. Wow. And then you get it back when you pay, right? Because it's gotten so bad. Another idea they're throwing out is just prepay. Like if you're gonna come to the grocery store, you gotta prepay, like you prepay for gas, yes. Like gas, right? Which is crazy that it's gotten to that point. But that's how desperate they are, how bad the situation's gotten. So those are a couple things thrown around. And there was a guy in Brampton, the Peel Region Police couple weeks ago arrested a guy, series of targeted thefts against major retailers. Uh, stole approximately 30 grand worth of stuff. So this is like this is his day job to do this, right? 300 bottles of alcohol. And in Aurelia, the local detachment there, the OPP, had a recent press conference talking about how they're seeing the similar increase in retail theft, and they've chalked it up, which is fair, I think, to unaffordability and the position that uh some communities or people in the community are feeling. They're just struggling to eat, they're struggling to pay the bills. And they've resorted maybe maybe five years ago, they would have never resorted to shoplifting. They're doing that now. And so they're seeing that. And they add that the police there actually said that they play a part in how you know we're going to manage the needs of individuals to minimize this problem, right? To help people in other ways so they don't feel they have to do that. So there's all kinds of angles to this story. Um, but I think it's a it's a great opportunity to revisit Rui's interview with us. It is, yeah. Because it's very detailed. The guidance, I think it was at$9 billion was the figure he put on how much losses there were in Canada over a year because of organized retail theft. And he really has the nuance, and he talked about how what actually will work when it comes to legislative changes, what we can actually do. Um so I think it's worth uh worth watching that again.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

The Retail Council of Canada has just come up with a brand new report that highlights retail crime in Canada and the impact it's having, not only on business, but also on communities and safety in general. Here to talk about the report is Rui Rodriguez, who heads up loss prevention and risk management at the Retail Council of Canada. Rui, welcome to Closer Look and thanks for joining us tonight. We appreciate it. My pleasure. Uh Rui, the uh new report says retail crime in Canada has become uh more violent, more organized, and more costly than ever before. Just how bad has it gotten?

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Yes, I'll take that in uh in uh three parts. So costly. Uh last comparison we did was about uh it was in 2018, uh, where we did a survey to measure retail crime. And based on respondents, at that point, uh retail losses was estimated about five billion dollars. Most recent report, as you know, uh states it's 9.1 billion. Now that's on based on responses from uh those for the survey. I actually believe it's a little higher than that. Uh so it's double in almost five years. So losses uh certainly a concern. Uh and then of course there's the economic impact that as those losses occur and these goods are being stolen and resold through resale markets, online marketplaces, that's taxpayable taxpayer dollars not being collected. So it does have a quite a large economic effect, uh, as well as you know, retail prices uh and how those shift. Uh so that's a concern. The violence uh and the prolific nature and organized crime is probably the biggest uh concern post-COVID. Uh, we saw this impact and effect of people becoming more brazen when they commit their crimes, more violent in nature. We've seen our um population of unhoused individuals go up, people dealing with mental health, drug addictions, and so forth in many communities across Canada. Um so when you put all this together, coupled with the fact that coming out of COVID, the prosecutions of these types of individuals and the perception that retail crime is victimless crime, it's property crime, it really doesn't have a victim. Uh, we've struggled judicially and from a court's perspective to hold these people to account. Now we're not talking about the first-time offender, we're talking about somebody who makes a living of this, a professional thief, andor those that are chronically stealing and are violent in the nature when they steal. We've seen a massive increase of violence, 300% as reported by retailers. We've seen much more utilization of weapons. It's a daily occurrence that we hear about weapons being used in retail, whether it's bear spray, knives, in some cases guns. You know, five years ago that might be reported once every few months. It's a daily occurrence. Uh, and yet, retail criminals, these individuals perpetuate these crimes. Typically, these matters are placed down to just the theft rather than the robbery or other involved, because it's easier to plead down a matter. So you have these serious offenders that are perceived to be just shoplifters, where reality is they're violent individuals. They are running retail crime enterprises or organizations, they're having a massive impact. And from a community perspective, if you think about the young person or person in general working in retail who signed up to have a fun job, maybe it's their first job, certainly didn't sign up to have somebody pull a knife or bear spray on them or have somebody spit on them, it's having a massive impact on the worker. Uh, we have uh members who report a much higher degree of people off on leave as a result of a violent incident that could have been either physical or verbal in the retail environment. Uh, in addition, you've seen retailers and some that have closed up their locations in these more prone areas for crime, which creates an effect. You have a vacant location that's boarded up with graffiti and all, and creates and invites a criminal element, andor potentially a retailer that was supporting that market with goods that is no longer there. So it has a great effect. Um criminal system hasn't modified enough to deal with it. Uh, we we absolutely, our criminal code, the legislation that is in place, bail reform, uh, we need changes. Today it's a revolving door. The criminal in retail gets arrested, they're released the same day or next day, mostly the same day, and they're back reoffing. Um bail reform was amended last year with the LC48 coming out in January, where it does call for amendments where those individuals involved in violence and or weapons, they now have to have a burden of proof to show cause why they should be released. Yet we still see way too often those individuals that are repeat prolific offenders involved in violence are still being released the same day or next day. So we don't even see the legislation that is currently in place being used to the best that it can. Hence, my opinion, and I think it's shared, that we need much more prescriptive um uh sentencing guidelines for criminals so that it's not left to chance. When somebody is offended multiple times, there should be a graduated sentencing uh as for punishment. And it doesn't have to be just incarceration, uh, but whether it's a no-go back to that retailer, there's different uh cities doing electronic monitoring with uh uh anklets and different natures, but we need to prevent these criminals from re-offending, and if they truly can't be a good standing citizen, uh incarceration may be that choice, but uh that's where I I believe now we're at the press precipice of making sure we're tougher on crime, and this isn't perceived as shoplifters who aren't causing any harm to anyone. We need to make sure the perception is real that there's an element of retail crime that has prolific criminals that are having a massive impact on our communities, our people, and they should be not lumped in with the opportunistic thief who steals an item for the first time.

SPEAKER_03 18:04

Yeah, it's a good point. When you think of the why, is that that's the major reason, the fact that it's it seems to be easier, the punishments are severe, they're getting out the same day. Are there other reasons of the why, Rui, that's driving this?

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Yeah, supplying the mend is certainly one of them. Uh, let's face it, as public citizens, we look for a deal and the online marketplace and the ability to go directly from uh market to social media to sell goods uh and reselling of goods uh is also made it very easy for organized criminals to hide behind it. The fact that we have a lot more individuals who can be leveraged for it. So if I'm an enterprise that's criminal and I know that there are consumers out there that are willing to buy goods off me online and I can set up a platform that looks legitimate, uh when there's the demand for that product, and I can send somebody to steal those goods from me and then ship them to their door using any one number of last mile couriers as a criminal, I can hide. So there's also that element where organized criminals used to take more risk. They had to go in and steal themselves and could get caught. Now they're using other people's steel for them, and they can sell it through these online marketplaces and never have to meet the individual so they feel safer. And when the consequences to those actions appear to be non-existent, uh I think the combination of supply and demand as well as the lack of consequences just gives people confidence to do it.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

Ruby, you talk to uh retailers all the time. Any uh any anecdotes that you can uh share with us?

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Yeah, listen, generally uh most retailers, and I if not all, the galvanizing concern is their people, their customers. The fact that from a safety and security of the employees, their staff, and customers coming into the store, uh they want to work together on changing that to make sure people feel safe in a retail environment. I think there's a lot of great work that is being done across the country. Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, uh, Winnipeg is a great story. Starting to see some great collaboration in Ontario where law enforcement and retailers are coming together to make sure people feel safe. So I think that is uh a big story for retail. Retail is not an unsafe environment. We have a crime issue, but people are working hard to try to minimize and impact it, but we need more from a government perspective. The other is the losses, and you know, when people say, well, there's a lot of big retailers with deep pockets who make a lot of money. Well, here's my answer. I think if you're a retailer and you operate your business well, you should make money. That's why you get into business. So when people get criticized for making money, I think that's the wrong approach. Because what I see is those same retailers at the table with their colleagues and with law enforcement wanting to make an impact and taking the communities back. Uh, they are all there at the table saying, we are willing to work on solutions. What else can we do? And retailers, by and large, over the last four years, have made significant investments in how they merchandise, how they retail, whether it's changing their storefronts, realigning the ins and outs of their stores, hiring more people on the floor. The use of guard services across this country has gone up probably tenfold.

SPEAKER_03 21:21

Yes. You see them everywhere. You never used to see them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Well, and you know, that's to protect primarily your people, right? You want to send an assurance to your staff that you have someone there to protect you. In some cases, they're there to arrest the bad guys, but a lot of retailers are hands-off, so there's the element of deterrence and protection, uh, but it's that utilization. So retailers continue to make significant investments at their cost. These aren't funded by government to protect their people, their premises, and their products. Um, and they want to see government and the judicial system step in and do as much as they can to start to impact. Recidivism to reduce the amount of offending and take a more firm, direct approach on the criminals that deserve it, not the first-time offenders.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

And Rui, there's been a real shift uh in that regard, right? It used to be years ago, you know, a thief would walk into a store in a mall and steal something and run out, and 17 staff would chase them down the hallways uh of the mall. Now that just doesn't happen. They're told stand down and just let them go.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

Yeah, so it's a complex story. Some retailers still apprehend, but when you're doing that today, you have to be very prepared for the risks that that brings. The general retail worker is not prepared for that. Some of the LP, loss prevention, asset protection, even guards, there's an additional training because today you're dealing with individuals that could be under the influence. They could be dealing with mental health issues, and the symptoms are the same. And you need to be able to recognize that and have empathy for those individuals that may not be aware of what they're doing, and a firm touch for those who are uh very aware and are violent. And when you do decide to go hands-on, you don't know what that person is going to do. When we see higher realizational weapons, you know, you know, somebody pulling out a needle out of their pocket. Uh, so that whole hands-on approach has to be treated much more carefully because the risk has gone up when you are uh and the criminals know that. So, to your point, where a criminal might before run in and we call it a grab and run. Grab items run out, and a lot of times most companies don't allow you to chase, but you could try to detain the individual. Uh whereas now we see evidence of individuals just walking in. They walk in in, they make threats, they grab items, they walk out, knowing that nobody is going to detain them. Uh, not just because it's policy, because of this fear. And even if they do get arrested, it's further amplified by the fact that they get arrested, they might spend the night in jail, get a nice meal, and they'll be back again tomorrow. And that gives them that confidence that, oh, I can re-offend. Uh and the consequences weren't that bad. And, you know, that is not a good recipe right now. Uh, so even as retailers contemplate how to engage, as I said, they've made a lot of investments to try to protect themselves. But when it's about engaging, if you're gonna apprehend an individual and take that risk, you want to know that on the other side, our prosecutions, our justice, our laws are gonna be utilized to hold that criminal in place and they're not coming right back to re-offend.

SPEAKER_03 24:29

Because for sure, we've seen cases in all of our communities where the people show up at the same store the same day or the next day. You know, Ru, you talked about your report goes into great detail about how much um retailers are struggling to contain these crime levels, right? They're limiting store hours, they're locking high-priced items, um, they're even closing locations in certain areas. Is there sort of a uh a horror story that sticks out to you? You don't have to name names of what the business is, but an example of a business that really epitomizes the struggle that they're all facing?

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Yeah, I think some are more prone to activity than others. Um and you know, if I lump that in without speaking out, you know, if in the grocery world, you know, you have a lot of volume within. So from uh accessibility, it's not just grocery. A lot of grocers have apparel, they have pharmacy. Uh so from a volume perspective, an organized criminal can get a lot within that. So obviously there's that pronus to that. Uh, and then there's organizations that may have less of an obvious defense that become more of a target, uh, right, because they don't necessarily have the means to employ guards and continue to spend and all that. So the retail sector, you know, I think it's a very diversified lens. As far as horror stories, you know, there's been examples and they've been in the media where, you know, individual uh who clearly is not in his right mind based on the example goes into a retail location, uh, sets some items on fire to create a distraction tactic, um, because they think if they do that, that's going to be the focus while they steal. Meanwhile, they burn down the location and there's life's at risk. Uh and when you think about that, the individual may not have done it with the intent of causing harm of life, thought this is funny, it's a distraction tactic, or but it's the severity of what impact that has. And if that happens to be a retailer that is a focus of that community that supplies that community, uh, and they need to now repair or reopen, or potentially decide, do we even do that? Uh, there's a backfill that is gone from that community. So what may start out as some person um, again, ill-intended for sure, but does something that they think, I'm just gonna create a distraction here while I do this, can have a fairly large impact. Uh, and then, you know, there's a number of incidents where we've had uh we've had several security officers in the last couple of years who've died uh in the retail environment as a result of retail criminal incidents. Uh that shouldn't be happening, right? That should not be happening in a retail environment.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Rui, the uh report concludes that better coordination is needed between retailers, law enforcement, and government. Where's the biggest gap right now and what would you like to see change first?

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Yeah, and I don't want to blame anyone, although I'll call our government to task. Uh the collaboration with law enforcement is in good place. Retail Council of Canada hosts a national task force every month, and it is open to everyone. We started three and a half years ago. We have over 34 law enforcement agencies across the country and retailers that collaborate on projects, whether it's targeted enforcement, uh, sharing intel, uh, and working together on solutions. Uh so I'd say that collaboration with police and retailers can continue to improve. And we certainly want to advocate with the Canadian Associated Chiefs of Police to make sure all police agencies are connecting and networking with the retail community. Justice, we've seen some growth in the Crown's areas as far as Winnipeg. Again, a perfect example where we have the executive director of prosecution at a provincial level, as well as a supervisor in Winnipeg who are part of our working group, therefore creates that connection that when they see the same individuals, they know it, right? As part of being that collective, they start to see and build the expertise of we know who those offenders are, so it creates a great connection. So I think where the gap is and where we start to now move forward to is at a provincial and more federal level, looking at legislative changes, uh, criminal code amendments, and clarity and language on making sure that these type of crimes, retail or either, that are naturally perceived as low-level crimes, that we look at it from the criminal lens, not the type of incident. Rather than shoplifting, uh, we need to look at it from what is the nature of that criminal and their past, and the legislation needs to support that. So more prescriptive, because frankly, it can be a bit ambiguous the way we look at things. And just a quick example theft over and theft under$5,000 does not really help a crown with indictable offenses for the type of criminal we're talking about. You know, a violent prolific offender who steals$100 every day would be plaid out because they fall under theft under if you use that as an example, versus a criminal who re-offends and is a recidivist who's hit a certain threshold falls into a different pool. And that's what I think we need to define more. And there should be very prescriptive actions as far as what the dispositions or consequences are. And if they fail, based on demonstrating you you didn't stay away or you breached your contract, then it needs to continue to escalate in consequence versus the same old, same old, we're gonna let you go, promise to appear at court. We may never see that date because of Jordan limits, and the individual is free to re-offend. It just doesn't work.

SPEAKER_03 29:57

It's interesting. That's a point I hadn't thought of. I appreciate that. Rui, can you speak to the impact all this has on prices of goods at stores? I mean, are the are prices by default have to go up because of the amount of money the retailers are losing?

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Yeah, and it's a complex question. I don't know that one directly affects the other, but it has an impact for sure. Uh losses, of course, will have an impact on price. I think also when you think about the retail market and how competitive it is. You know, if I have a toothpaste, Colgate toothpaste, and it normally sells for four bucks, I can't sell it for six bucks just to try to make up my losses because consumer will go where it's four dollars. Uh so I think market-wise, certainly has an impact 100%. I don't think there's the opportunity for somebody to recover their losses by playing with their individual prices because you would price yourself out of the market and you've got the online market that you have to compete with. But it does absolutely have an impact, you know. And we have a campaign that we collaborate on with Toronto Crime Stoppers. It's called It Costs Us All. There's a website called It Costs Us All with a lot of different information, which is really about educating the consumer on the impact it does have, because eventually it does cost us all. Um and the market has to move up in order to not just recover the losses of goods, but it's all the extra expenses, right? If you're spending a ton more money on protecting yourself, if your insurance is now declining, your insurance claims because of breakage, glass breakage, and that because you've put in too many claims, uh, if you're spending more money on guards, that extra labor, at some point, your PL, if you're in the red, you're not going to survive. So retailers got to make up uh enough revenue and enough profit in order to do all these things. So if we can curb this, where retailers having not having to take so much of these other additional expenses, I'm sure that would also have an impact.

SPEAKER_02 31:52

Uh, Rui, before we let you go, uh, anything else about the uh report you'd like to add or or the situation itself that retailers find themselves in?

SPEAKER_00 31:59

Yeah, so one, I would say it's the public education. I think it's important that the general public understand that retail crime is not a victimless crime. Uh be educated. Two, be aware of where you're buying your goods. Yes, it's great to buy stuff online, but if the deal is too good to be true, it likely is not. You know, a thousand dollar drill and a brand new package that you're paying$100 for likely isn't somebody who's reselling it because they got too many gifts. Uh so be aware of where. Don't support organize retail crime because it is supply demand. And the last would be collective. Uh speak to your MP, speak to your officials, be part of the message to make sure that we're working collectively in Canada, be tougher on crime. And, you know, I'm not talking militant. I'm just talking as a collective, we need to make it a focus to take our communities back while dealing with this complex issue of unhoused individuals that are falling into the mix. Uh, it's a complex issue, and everybody should be aware and trying to do their part to help.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

All right, there's Louis Rodriguez. Uh heads up loss prevention and risk management at the Retail Council of Canada. Uh, Rui, appreciate your time uh tonight. Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

My pleasure. Thank you, gentlemen.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Interesting uh statistic that I read earlier this morning as it relates to uh retail theft. The province of Ontario right now has over 41,000 security guards. Forty one thousand. That's crazy. For that very reason. Job of the future, right there. Job of the future. For it doesn't work out. You know, yeah, we could really chase those same guys. Yeah. Uh okay, thanks to uh crack uh executive producer Zach Trunzo today, who has brought up the uh Rogan experience. Look at that right behind us. There's the number 1.538 million views in real time from last night's uh episode and uh 34,000 comments. So to answer your question, yes, he is catching us. Yes, it's getting close. Getting close. So uh we'll need to address.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

I may subscribe to 20 million? Wow. Yeah, I'm actually surprised it's not higher by now. Like because this is a day old.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

I can feel my heels being nipped up.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

Yeah, I know, I know. But I am surprised that only it's only at 1.5 million. I would have thought it would have been uh higher than that. But I guess other people also listen on wherever they get their favorite podcast. Yes, they do. Where you can also get the number one podcast in the world. Yes, you can.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

And you can also sign up to uh get our content every night. Closerlook podcast.ca. Uh and you of course can reach out uh anytime. 24-7, closerlook at villagemedia.ca. As uh Joe and uh Pierre Poliev uh play us out tonight uh for Zach Trunzo, executive producer of this evening's program, and Michael Friscolani, our editor in chief here at Village Media. I'm Scott Sexmith. Thanks for your time uh this week. Uh we'll do it again Monday night. Don't forget Dan Schulman from Rogers Blue Jays Baseball, right here, seven o'clock Monday on Closer Look.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Frisco and Scott's wardrobe, divided in part by Moore to St. Marie.