Here’s a winning bet: Let’s lose all those gambling ads before it's too late

Bruce Kidd, a now-retired professor at the University of Toronto, is our guest on tonight's episode of Village Media's Closer Look podcast.

Hosted by Village Media’s Michael Friscolanti and Scott Sexsmith, and produced by Derek Turner, Closer Look is a new daily podcast that goes way beyond the headlines with insightful, in-depth conversations featuring our reporters and editors, leading experts, key stakeholders and big newsmakers.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

My sense is that it means that people identify with sport on their phones. They're no longer physically active. They're no longer uh involved with other people.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Back on closer look on this Tuesday, uh, March 24th with Michael Friscoletti. I'm Scott Sexmith. Uh, for the record, I am sick and tired of winter.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Yeah, it's it just won't end.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

You know what? We woke up here, we're in the north, people know that. Uh HQ here in uh Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. Uh five centimeters again today. I'm just done. I'm I'm dare I say pissed off. And I will say that because I know everyone is thinking the same thing. Yeah. Maybe they don't want to say it. There you go. I said it for you. Even people who love snow are tired of it. It is uh it is a lot of snow.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

I think we broke a record, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:04

For the most snow ever in Sault Ste. Uh what did I hear today?

SPEAKER_02 1:06

It's more than five. Yeah. It's a lot of snow plowing, Scott. That's okay. Baseball's in the air, opening days in a couple days. It's a great March is a great time to be a sports fan. My goodness, you watch In The Madness? You have a bracket filled up?

SPEAKER_01 1:20

I do not. Uh was never much of a basketball guy, but you're right. You've got March Madness. You've got the baseball season uh starting up later this week. Uh OHL playoffs starting. The NHL is what, six weeks away. Yep. The Masters is coming. I mean, this is just time to work.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Trevor Burrus, Jr. It's a great time. And I actually filled out a bracket for the first time in a long time after the March Madness. Uh and uh I think and so they're all online now, right? In the old days when we used to hang out with our buddies in university, we'd all have we'd write it on paper, hang it on the residence wall, and there'd be a great but now it's all online. I think the other day uh there was there were 26 million brackets filled out online and there were only two perfect ones left, which was pretty crazy. Wow. But it did get me thinking about the gambling culture and the online gambling, uh sports gambling. It's an issue we've talked about on the show in the past. Yes, we have. But it's one that you see in the headlines every week because there's new research coming out saying that there's the the damage this is doing to people um that that's so easy to place bets. I think the latest research showed that calls to the Ontario helpline, I think, for gambling are up 300 percent or something like that. I I mean it's crazy. And I think I read a LinkedIn post from a well-known trustee, like insolvency trustee in Canada, saying that he's never seen so many bankruptcies that are driven by gambling. Wow. Uh because it's just it's like you're literally on your phone and you see the ads. So this is an issue we've talked about in the past. Um, and we're gonna talk about it again today with uh with a great guest. Oh Bruce Kidd. For those of us who maybe uh feel like we should be waving a Canadian flag. That's right, that's right. Just to bring me over to speed, Bruce Kidd was a uh you know a great athlete uh in his prime. Yes. In the 60s, he was the athlete, he was a traffic and field star, twice the Canadian press athlete of the year in the early 1960s, won the Lou Marsh Trophy for Canada's uh top athlete. Yeah. He's in the Canadian Olympic Hall of Fame, he's in Canada Sports Hall of Fame, he's an officer of the Order of Canada. For a long time, he was a professor at the University of Toronto as well. He's a lawyer as well. And uh and he's now kind of leading the charge, one of the people leading the charge to ban gambling ads. Uh what's the right title? He's uh the chair of ban ads for gambling, which makes sense. And he's very passionate about this. And you can imagine he's lived on both ends, right? Being the elite athlete he works for the city. Great perspective. Yeah, great perspective on not just what this is doing to people who are gambling, but what it's doing to the athletes who are in this different kind of pressure now that everyone's gambling on and betting on what they're doing. So uh we reached out to him, asked him to come on, and he said, of course, and we're really looking forward to this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

For years, gambling in Ontario was something you had to go looking for: a casino, a ticket. It was a conscious choice. Now it's everywhere. On your phone, during the game that you're watching on TV, even in the ads between plays, and as access has exploded, so have the warning signs. A new study shows calls to Ontario's gambling helpline have nearly tripled, with young men driving much of the increase. Bruce Kidd is a former track and field Olympian and the chair of Ban Ads for Gambling. He's been pushing for stricter limits on how and where these ads show up. Bruce joins us tonight from Toronto. Bruce, appreciate your time. Welcome to the program.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Well, thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Bruce, I think this is one of those topics that uh should begin with maybe a bit of a history lesson. There was a time and not long ago when gambling was not legal in this country. When did that change specifically here in Ontario?

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Well, that's hard to account for. Uh it changed uh in part uh in the late uh teens, 2017, 2018, when the U.S. Supreme Court legalized sports betting across the border. And uh some Canadians felt that we would have to do the same or we would uh lose tourists and others uh to the U.S. uh in the House of Commons, where bills to legalize sports betting had been presented again and again uh uh uh for many years, there was uh a similar change of heart, change of direction. And in 2021, a majority of parliamentarians voted uh to legalize uh sports betting here, to amend the criminal code to long no longer prohibit sports betting.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Can you take us back? What was your reaction to that when that happened, Bruce?

SPEAKER_00 5:43

You know, I didn't think very much about it at the time. I noted it, uh I wondered about it, but it really wasn't on my radar. It was only when, as a sports fan who watches a lot of sports on television, I was bombarded by the ads. Uh, I was grossed out by the way that it changed the viewing experience, the way broadcasters became shills, broadcasters that I'd respected all my life became shills for the betting companies, promoting the bets uh and and the odds. And then in the sports milieu that I inhabit, uh primarily at the University of Toronto and around Toronto, saw the extent to which athletes are betting, coaches are worrying about betting, uh young uh persons, particularly men, are preoccupied with their bets. And you could see that it was a crisis. It wasn't only offensive in the games that I saw on television, but I heard from athletic directors that athletes were using, losing their tuition money because they'd overextended themselves on bets and so on and so forth. And that's how I became involved. I was mostly concerned about the effect on sports and the way that it was changing the culture of sports. Uh, but um, as I became involved in it further and began to re read the reports from the Canadian Medical Association and Cam H and other bodies, I I began to see that it's it's primarily a health problem, really a public health crisis.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

So it is a public health crisis. We've talked we've touched on this in the show. I do we do want to talk about some of those issues about how it impacts the sport and the athletes, but let's talk about some of those health effects first, Bruce. What strikes you? I mean, we've seen so many problems with mental health issues, with major debt that people are racking up. What are some of the things that have happened because of this legalization that concern you the most?

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Well, uh the number of people who gamble and who gamble extensively has grown uh significantly. Uh in uh in the years before legalization, Statistics Canada uh reported, estimated that 1.3% of Canadians were involved in sports betting uh and were considered problem gamblers. The last Canadian survey by the Canadian Center for Substance Use and Addiction, November of last year, reported that that number is now 9.9%. Wow. The number of Canadians experiencing problem gambling, that's about four million people.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

That's insane. Yeah, that's beyond frightening. That's one in one in ten, basically.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Yeah, uh yes, one in ten. One in ten. That's crazy. And among and among you know, the age group uh 18 to 29, uh it's also very high, like 25 percent.

unknown 9:00

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Bruce, do we know how much uh the province of Ontario is pocketing from legal gambling?

SPEAKER_00 9:05

I don't know that number. Uh they they uh tax gross uh the gross revenue of gambling companies now at the rate of 22.5 percent. That's relatively low in North American terms across the lake, New York State taxes at 51%. But I can't tell you, although I could look it up, um what that grosses uh for uh the consolidated revenue fund. I just I don't remember everything these days.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

But it's in the billions, we assume, right, Bruce? They're making billions a year on this?

SPEAKER_00 9:41

I think so.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

In any event, it's a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

But is that money going into the treatment of those addicted? Is it going into public education programs? Uh that's the concern.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

So, Bruce, we know sports betting is now deeply embedded in uh broadcast odds, live bets, celebrity endorsements. What does that do to the way young viewers experience sports? What's the impact there?

SPEAKER_00 10:06

You know, I we need to research this uh in in detail, but my sense is that it means that people identify with sport on their phones. Yeah, they're no longer physically active, they're no longer uh involved with other people, uh, they're they're no longer outside training and visualizing themselves scoring a goal or throwing a pass or winning a race and so on. And they're not uh interacting with other people uh in the cultural sense and the way that you learn about other people uh in communities. It's all it's all on your phone. Uh some of the apologists for sports betting uh in the Olympic community argue that um it increases the interest in sports. And that is certainly true. And as the the the backers will tell you, uh, given all the prop bets, it um it encourages many people to watch to the end of the game, not turn off when there's it's a blowout or the uh the outcome is is is certain. But I I see no evidence that that increased interest actually leads to physical participation, which is where you develop the health benefits, the resilience, uh the social skills, uh the interaction with other people.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Yeah, it's certainly a changed world for sure. The other big concern we've seen it firsthand, really, Bruce, is that it's even though there's a le age limit to this, we know younger kids who are not of that age. They're still betting on, they're still finding a way to bet with it, use their phones. They'll be in the middle of a school day racking up the losses, racking up debt. That's a major concern just from a financial perspective, too, right? These kids, the amount of money they're losing.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

That is correct. But I I worry about the grooming of kids uh into a lifetime of uh of betting. Um I heard in a podcast uh recently organized by Canadian Mental Health Canada that um some of their branches had moved their education about gambling from grade nine to grade one because of the prevalence of children five and six who are uh engaging in sports betting or asking their parents and grandparents to help them bet on sports. That's frightening.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

That is crazy. Bruce, many will draw parallels here with tobacco and alcohol advertising, uh, and of course the associated harms. Are we repeating the same mistakes that we've already learned from?

SPEAKER_00 12:50

I would say so. And my colleagues and I, in the campaign to ban ad ads for gambling, model our advocacy on what an earlier generation did with tobacco. I mean, as a way of reducing the harms, governments uh eventually reduced the ads and they put warning warnings on uh packages and they conducted uh health programs in schools. I think that's what we have to do with respect to sports betting. We're not we're not uh calling for it to be uh prohibited uh again, but uh people should know what the risks are. At the moment, it's celebrated. At the moment, it's normalized. At the moment, uh people think there's nothing wrong with it, and we've got to change those perceptions.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

I hate to point out one person in particular, but the ad I keep seeing features Connor McDavid uh for whatever one he's uh advertising for. How much does that concern you that such an elite athlete like Connor McDavid is pushing this product? And have you ever had a chance to speak to any of these athletes? You're an athlete yourself, to speak to these athletes about what this the harm that this does?

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Not to Connor McDavid, and uh not to any current athlete, and I'm I I'm sorry about that. Uh there are athletes, uh, you know, former former Olympic athletes, former professional athletes who certainly agree with us, uh, but uh the current generation uh and part of this is their collective agreements with the leagues that are part of the industry, um that uh that they won't they won't say anything negative about betting.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

Bruce, uh what impacts uh does legalized gambling have on these athletes? There must be all kinds of uh different pressures now.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Well, uh yes there are. Uh uh number one, there's enormous pressures to manipulate the results. Uh not so much, I I can't imagine. I mean, a guy like Carter McDavid making what he's making is has no financial incentive uh to uh manipulate the outcome or throw a game. But you talk to people from the RCMP and other uh uh investigators of of crime, what they point to are players who are not paid very well, uh who are in induced uh to make some extra money uh by manipulating uh uh a game so that someone can win a prop bet. And uh to the international conferences that I go to, the sport that's most frequently uh affected is tennis, uh where below the top 100 players don't make very much. They have to pay uh their travel and other expenses out of pockets, and uh it's easy, it's easy to fix a game. Uh lower tiers of soccer is another one that's targeted for that. So so the corruption in the form of cheating, in the form of game manipulation, is now a huge risk. I would say the other factor is the abuse of athletes who disappoint betters and uh and and betters scream at them or threaten them. Uh often uh when they're athletes of color in racist terms, and there are a number of well-documented cases uh in uh in Canada uh with professional teams. It's now a big concern in in the U.S. talking about uh March madness. It's a big concern in the NC2A uh in a sport like basketball. And the NC2A is now campaigning to ban prop bets uh on college athletes because of the abuse that athletes have received from disappointed betters. It's a safe work issue.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

It's a great point, right? Because we see it kind of it goes to the heart of the sport, the spirit of sport, right? Now people look at these athletes as if someone that just represents their financial fortunes. That's it. If I bet that they do what they need to do, I'm gonna win this bet, as opposed to looking at them as we have for so long, as just the people we idolize for their ability to play that particular sport.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

And you know, I would if if if if an athlete who's over 18 decides as part of a collective agreement to allow themselves to be objects of betting, uh I guess that's okay. Uh what I find really upsetting and offensive is that uh some of these betting companies accept bets on levels of sport where the athletes don't even know that they're the subject of bets uh until someone abuses them for not uh realizing a prop bet. I think that that there should be a regulation that says unless the athletes uh involved uh agree to being subjects of bets through a collective agreement that uh betting not be allowed upon them. That would be an important safeguard.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

You're a former elite athlete yourself, Bruce. Maybe you still are. I don't know. I shouldn't assume that you're not still an elite athlete. But uh, you know, you were a track star in the 60s, well-known Olympian. Do you have ever thought to put yourself in the shoes what it must be like if someone had approached you when you were racing or you were running and say, hey, Bruce, you know, this is what I'm thinking of doing. Could you imagine the pressure that would have been? And do you sympathize with the athletes of today who deal with that?

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Well, I would just uh I mean, I I can't think of anything more offensive. Now, I was an amateur athlete and I was lucky enough to grow up in a middle class family and uh at a good university, so I was able to look after myself. But uh I cannot think of anything more offensive uh to the spirit of sport than someone asking you not to do your best to give somebody else uh a chance to win some money. Um I I cannot tell you what I I I just it's incomprehensible to me uh that someone would have the effrontery to do that.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Yes, and it's happening, right? We know it's happening. We we see we once in a while we see the headlines about someone who's been arrested or charges laid or allegations made. It's definitely happening. It's a legitimate concern, Bruce.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Bruce, uh, so what now? What do we do?

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Well, we're campaigning for Bill S211 to regulate advertising for sports betting in Canada. We're also campaigning that Canada sign uh the Macklin Convention against uh the manipulation of sports competition so that in the criminal code there would be pro prohibitions against the fixing that we're talking about right now, and would give the federal government uh more powers of public education so that it would have a better legal framework in this complicated federal country to uh to do what the tobacco uh uh uh regulations now do, allow um messages, truthful messages about the risks to be inserted in uh in messages about sports gambling. Uh or so that's what we're trying to do, and we're working with community agencies to try to develop effective education about the harms of sports betting to to uh denormalize this mystique that currently exists that it's a harmless form of entertainment. I mean, if four million people are addicted, uh we've got to address that. Trevor Burrus, Jr. That's a major issue.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

So just to be clear, in a perfect world, there would be no gambling ads from as far as your organization is concerned. There'd be none. None allowed.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

That is correct.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

That makes sense. And uh who who in the highest level of power have you been able to sit down and speak to about this, Bruce? You've been able to get a cabinet minister's year in Ontario or in Canada?

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Aaron Powell We've talked to, I mean, we're lobbying the federal government. It's an interesting uh the the the bill was initiated by Senator Marty Deakin, uh a former Olympic leader, uh, and unanimously approved uh by by the Senate, uh and it's now in the House of Commons. Uh we would like to see it a government bill, but we are told that uh given the polarization of the House of Commons right now, uh it's probably better if it's a private member's bill so that members from all sides. can vote on their conscience and uh it's going ahead on that basis. We have um we've talked to people at the senior political and civil service uh level about implementation when passed uh so we're encouraged.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Well you are a marathon runner so you understand how things can take some time so that's that's a good background to have. Can I ask you, Bruce, what about the argument that we just banned this gambling, say it was a terrible mistake. We should we shouldn't have done this. We're gonna do it, stop doing it. Is it do we not do that because people will just find other ways to gamble online and use other platforms and not ones regulated by Ontario, for example?

SPEAKER_00 22:39

I wish we had a real a serious public debate about that. I think the consensus is that um the horse is out of the barn and we'll never be able to put it back. So let's talk about uh minimizing the harms rather than reversing that um I don't so that's the position we're taking I wish I wish somebody would raise the question you're raising in parliament that would be a good discussion.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Well sometimes we go all the way to Parliament Bruce we have that kind of sway and I'm just kidding we don't at all but but actually having you on the show is good it's a great educator educational opportunity people a lot of people listen to the show watch the show will listen and maybe think about things that they didn't uh beforehand.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Anything uh else to add uh Bruce before we let you go tonight no thank you very much if your listeners if your listeners agree uh with uh the the idea of of limiting the harm by reducing advertising they should get in touch with their MP and make their views known there's Bruce Kidd the chair of Ban Ads for Glam uh gambling joining us uh from Toronto tonight uh Bruce appreciate your time good to see you thank you very very much and and thanks for having me on here here's what I don't understand about the you know buying of players right to change the outcome of games and Bruce is right a guy like Connor McDavid who makes what 12 14 million bucks a year plus plus plus plus he has the ability and the skill to change the outcome of any game that he plays in but does a fourth line winger who's making 750 8500 bucks who gets limited ice time who you would think would be the one that you would go to and dangle that carrot but they can't really make the same kind of influences that a guy like but I think it's the prop bets you can bet on any of the you can bet that this person's gonna lose this game in tennis for example like a single game or a single single point right that they're gonna double fault here.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

I don't know can you bet on that? I assume you can I'm sure you can I'm sure you can so it's those little things and we have seen there's been some some some criminal charges in the U.S. against kind of bit players the guys who aren't big big names I think there was uh guy suspended in the NBA recently so it's always out there and I'm sure you took he mentioned the RCMP I'm sure investigators have told him on the side hey we've seen this we've seen that that kind of stuff has happened I it just go for me it goes back to what he said at the beginning of the beginning of the interview is just just how much has changed the enjoyment of watching sports. Yeah and he's right about the broadcasters like the the teams that I enjoy watching uh I enjoy their broadcasters and then it drives me bonkers when in the fourth inning they start telling me what the odds are and it's like you've kind of ruined all your I want it's credibility in a lot of ways. I think I read a stat um and I want to make sure that I get this right that 20 percent of CBC's ad revenues are directly related to uh gambling I think that was in Bruce's he sent us some material before the interview yeah he has like he has a slideshow that he uses slide deck when he's still 20 percent 20 percent it's crazy but it but it's it's it's huge money right it's it's massive revenue and I think there's almost a hundred uh regulated um what do they call platforms you can bet on in Ontario alone right? And to me it's it's it's it's this it's the kids and I hate to be there because I'm an old man now right well the kids are going to be in big trouble. But but it's true, right? Like you're 16 years old and you're on you're on school and you're betting with your dad's credit card or whatever you're using to lose money. Yeah it's it's crazy. And he the grooming is the right word. Bruce said you're you're grooming these young kids for a lifetime of this behavior and this belief that you can actually make a living doing this. You're gonna lose no house always wins man if you're if you're a big if you've won big money and you've won send us an email nobody wins. There's no way that someone's bought a nice house you won a little just to keep you but no one's bought a nice house and a nice car playing what are they I don't even bet 365? How many people on Bet 365 have won more than 50 grand.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Nobody don't know there you go there's my bold prediction all right bet on it bet on it uh and I bet we'll be back tomorrow uh at seven o'clock here on closer look closer look at villagemedia.ca uh your thoughts on gambling ads we would love to hear from them uh for Derek Turner executive producer of this evening's program and Michael Frisco Lanti our editor in chief I'm Scott Sexmith thanks for your time see you tomorrow night at seven here on closer look and Scott's wardrobe provided in part by Moore's Sault Ste Marie