What is ‘maple washing’ — and why are grocery stores getting fined for it?

The ‘Buy Canadian’ movement is still going strong — and federal food inspectors say they’re determined to help ensure shoppers know exactly what’s in their grocery carts.

The Canadian Food Inspection Agency recently revealed that over the past year, it has fined five stores a combined $47,000 for misleading country of origin labels.

“Canadians have been clear that they want to support Canadian businesses and buy Canadian products,” the agency says. “Consumers deserve origin labels they can trust so they can make informed choices. Accurate origin labelling creates a fair marketplace that benefits both consumers and businesses.”

Joining us on tonight’s Closer Look podcast to discuss the ongoing crackdown is Richard Leblanc, a professor of governance, law and ethics at York University.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Back on closer look on uh this Wednesday, the twenty-fifth day of March. Hoarse today. Are ya? I am losing my voice. What a funny story. You sure. So what else you got? I'm ready for a laugh. So years ago when I worked in radio, religiously, once a year, for whatever reason, I would lose my voice. Just wake up in the morning, voice is gone. Same time of year? No, various times. I'd feel great, you know, no running nose, no flu or cold. My voice would just be gone. I would always get a note from my doctor, who is a family friend, to give to my program director. And the doctor would always write on the note please excuse Scott from work. He needs lots of fresh air and exercise walking, i.e., golf. I used to golf with my boss, and it would upset him that I'd get a free pass for a week. Was it like a six-week letter or from a couple of years? No, it was just for a week. A whole week. But he would literally write on there, Scott needs to play some golf and get away.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

So you just didn't go on the air for a week? Couldn't. I had no voice. But you know what I could do? Swing a golf club. I don't want to say that joke about face for radio, but it might apply here. You were not the first to utter those words, let me tell you. Did you read any gambling ads? They didn't have those back then. Touche. You know, we ran a poll on that uh post. I wanted to ask you, what were the results? Last I checked, 88%, hundreds of people cast a vote. The question was should we ban gambling ads from the airwaves? Wow. And it's overwhelmingly uh 90%. 88 to 90 percent last I checked. It's interesting too, some of the comments are people a lot of people agree, and a lot of people are saying, hey, it's your life you need to figure yourself out and navigate the world. Yep. If there's an ad saying you should, you know, use drugs or drink alcohol, you don't have to do those things.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Which I guess is a fair point. But uh for me, it's more that it's the annoyance of trying to enjoy my sporting event on TV.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Yeah, yeah, I hear you. Uh I wanted to uh ask uh Bruce yesterday, and and maybe you know the answer. There was a shift a couple years ago where celebrity endorsements were concerned that they had to include um uh a bit of a help component to the weren't allowed to to uh advertise the product per se.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

They had to advertise responsible gambling, but they could still mention the product on there, right? All right. There's the Connor David commercial with the guy in the Zamboni in his backyard. That's yeah. Because everyone has a Zamboni in their backyard.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Anyways, uh Proud Canadians we are, and we shop Canadians certainly when we can. Is your grocery cart full of uh Canadian ice? I always try and uh support uh locals, support the uh maple leaf. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Yep, I try to support uh local breweries. But you know what I have? I haven't bought I haven't bought a beer at a beer store in years. I I really like the let's try to support that's a one way to support Made in Canada. But the Buy Canadian movement, we've talked about it on the show in the past, we've had different guests talk about it, and it has maintained itself. It had didn't it wasn't like a real popular thing that then quickly died out. It's been consistent. Consumers still care very much about it. A year after Trump first brought in these tariffs, it got everybody so upset and the threats of annexation and all his 51st state rhetoric. It stayed, and it stayed so much that the Canadian Food Inspection Agency put out a statement the other day saying that they acknowledge how much Canadians care about this and they've really cracked down on misleading labels. And they want to make sure that if people are seeing a made in Canada or a product of Canada sign or it's under the maple leaf, that they can trust that it's actually Canadian. And uh they announced that they've fined uh five grocery stores since last April for a total combined amount of 47,000. Uh and they've actually investigated more than a hundred other complaints and had some other remedies, whether it be, you know, some some change in their practices but without the fines. Right. Uh so it's an issue that they're taking seriously. That's what they wanted to get that point across. And uh, you know, it did strike me at the this whole idea of uh when you're trying to buy Canadian, you also have to watch out for the maple washing. That idea people are taking advantage of their connections to Canada or alleged Canadian connections. So we're gonna talk some more about because the other angle, too, is some people saying, well, that's not a very high fine for a big grocery store. What's that gonna do? But it's there's some reputational, serious reputational damage. Oh, yeah. So we're gonna talk all about that today.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Who's our guest today? Our guest today is Richard LeBlanc, who's the uh professor of governance, law, and ethics at York University. At a time when more Canadians are trying to shop with intentions, scanning shelves for maple leaf labels and choosing products they believe support the domestic economy, some of the country's biggest grocers are being fined for getting that label wrong. Two Ontario stores owned by Loblaw were recently hit with fines for mislabeling products as Canadian. The dollar amount relatively small, but the implications potentially much bigger, because this isn't just about a sticker on a shelf. It's about consumer trust, corporate accountability, and what happens when a marketing push collides with regulatory reality. Richard LeBlanc is a uh professor of governance law and ethics at York University, and he's been watching how companies respond to exactly these kinds of risks. Richard joins us tonight from Toronto. Richard, welcome to Closer Look. It's great to have you.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

My pleasure, Scott. Nice to be here.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Uh Richard, you said uh this moment uh is unlike anything you've seen in terms of Canadians uh wanting to buy local. Are you surprised that the movement has been sustained for so long?

SPEAKER_00 5:33

No, I think it is caused uh uh by the by the U.S. tariffs. And I think uh uh Canadians uh are exercising their pocketbook and they're saying, listen, I not all Canadians, but many Canadians are saying I I want to support Canadian companies. And um and when it comes to groceries, which every Canadian has to buy, right? They they want to be able to rely that on the um the labeling, you know, products of Canada, made in Canada, the even the use of the maple leaf, they want to be able to rely on that in an easy, seamless way to exercise and support Canadian companies. And if if that label is incorrect, um and uh the effect is that the regulator is saying, listen, you need to get it right. Um and my point is if the label is incorrect, Canadians are mistakenly enriching unjustly other companies that are not associated uh or or or produced or or made in Canada. So uh so it it uh the use of mislabeling uh opens up, you know, reputation risk, financial risk. And you you mentioned Scott,$10,000. Um, you know, that's not a huge amount of money, but it's not insignificant if you're a small shop. It also introduces the potential for maple washing uh class action lawsuits. And there's one that was uh filed in Quebec recently. It's not approved by the court yet, but it alleges very similarly that that uh Lobla's Sobies, Metro, and Walmart um are mislabeling. So I think Canadians are are seized with the importance of this and they they want to be able to support Canadian-owned uh companies and and Canadian employees.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Well put. I want to get into some of the issues you just mentioned there, but I want to ask you personally, has it changed your shopping habits at all?

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Yeah, it has. I mean, I I I shop online and I I uh I uh you know I look for the maple leaf and I look for produced in Canada. So I uh yeah, I think it it just it's it's it's a small way of supporting Canada. Um and I think I I I don't think I'm atypical. I think there are many Canadians that that do the exact same thing.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Uh Richard, just for everyone's uh benefit, can you explain the difference between made in Canada and product of Canada?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

The product of Canada is a much higher threshold. 98% of the total direct costs need to be uh Canadian. And that's uh processing, ingredients, and labor. So that's product of Canada. Made in Canada is a lower threshold. 51% of the total direct cost of production must be Canadian. And also a substantial transformation must have occurred in Canada. Um and you can use the maple leaf for either one, product of Canada or made in Canada. But the regulator goes a little further, Scott, and they they talk about, you know, roasted, distilled, canned, refined, processed, prepared. So the regulator has got uh very specific uh regulations on how Canadian a product has to be for a company to be able to benefit from that Canadian brand. It's sort of like a passport, right? The Canadian passport is one of the most respected in the world. The Canadian flag is is similarly. So um, so I think there's there's a market value attached to uh being a Canadian product. I think that's what the regulator is really saying.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

That's a great explanation. Thanks so much for that. And just to bring our listeners up to speed, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency put out a statement the other day acknowledging that this is an important issue and that they're on this. They want to make sure that the labeling is accurate. And they did say there's been five fines since last April for a total of 47,000. Just some examples, Professor. What are they being do you know some specifics of what they're actually finding when then why why they're leveling a fine?

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yeah, there was in one instance, there was inconsistency between the product was not mislabeled, but it was on a shelf, and the signage on the shelf was inconsistent with the product. Um in another one, in the class action one I mentioned, there there were uh it is being alleged that onions uh uh from uh from Egypt and Guatemala were were uh represented as being Canadian. So uh so it it's you know it's not uh uh uh serious in the sense that you know uh it it's it's ingredients, but it it where it where it can start costing real money is if this class action lawsuit is approved by the courts and it's Canada-wide, because the average grocer has thousands and thousands of products, and um lawyers are very good at asking for books and records. Um, and uh this reminds me of the uh the bread, uh, the bread price fixing um uh litigation from three or four years ago, uh, where um uh grocers can can ultimately pay in the millions of dollars. So I think it's important to get it right. And um, you know, my area is boards of directors, and boards often talk about legal risk, regulatory risk, reputation risk, and they cross-examine management teams and say, listen, what are the controls so that we're not offside? Because we don't want to be splashed across the news. And and even when a company is splashed across the news, like Loblaws, for example, other peer companies will say in their boardrooms um to management, show me that this will not happen to us. What are the procedures that are in place so that that we get this right? So I think it's it's percolating across Canada. And that's all it takes, uh, gentlemen, is is a few fines for for it to catch people's attention.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Well, let's talk about that uh for a second, Richard, uh the fines. 47 grand spread over five companies uh doesn't seem like uh much. Should they be more?

SPEAKER_00 11:21

They should be, um, because not not all companies are the same size, and it might be a rounding error for a large grocer. It might be uh uh uh uh you know more significant for a small shop or a mom and pop shop. I think this reminds me of FinTrack when when uh FinTrack were were the financial crime agency in Ottawa were giving very low fines and the legislation was changed, and now they're giving fines in the hundreds of thousands, in some cases millions of dollars. I think legislation needs to be changed to enable the regulator to impose larger fines, commensurate with fault and commensurate with the size of the grocery.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

But as you mentioned too, the other important thing is it's not really just about the fine amount either. It's about the fact that your company name is in the headlines and the reputational damage. That's pretty significant, too, right? That's that's as, if not more significant. Yes, absolutely. Trevor Burrus, Jr. That's a great point. Um the other the other issue is it's not just the fines either. We're seeing that the CFA, CFIA has announced that they've had at least uh they've investigated about a hundred or so complaints, 104 complaints, and they've done some other things as well. Uh this might be a difficult question, but are you surprised that they're paying this much attention to it, or is this what they need to be doing?

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Aaron Powell This is food is very important. It's not just labeling, it's also ingredients and and and language and you know the metric system and it's it's health and safety. So I'm I'm not surprised that the the food regulator is seized with this. And I think um uh as I said, it's it's so widespread that every Canadian has to buy food in one way, shape, or form. So I think the regulator uh uh uh is uh this is not going away. And I think there's going to, and in fact, gentlemen, I predict that there's gonna be more fines. So I think you know it's incumbent on companies to uh you could even use, if you're clever, you could probably use artificial intelligence and um blockchain to associate from um from the so-called from from from farm to field to plate, so that you you actually get it right. So that by the time you get the package, if you're a retailer, by the time you get the manufactured package, you're comfortable, you're confident that we have gotten this right. And I'm I'm also starting to see uh uh contracts with contracts with third parties, manufacturers and designers, et cetera, to get this right so that everybody in the supply chain, uh there's no weak link in the supply chain so that you Canadians can be comfortable when you go into a grocer or when you shop online, you can grab an item and it shouldn't take you a long search. You should grab an item and it should be right there and you should be able to rely on that. You can you shouldn't be uh uh taxed with uh with uh uh uh uncertainty. It should be clear, it should be accessible, and it should be seamless.

SPEAKER_02 14:06

Richard, is the by Canadian movement uh having a real impact, or is it really just a feel-good thing?

SPEAKER_00 14:12

No, I think it's uh it's it is having an impact. When you look at the surveys of the uh number of Canadians that are going south of the border, that are spending their money in Canada, and you look at uh tourism, you look and all that affects jobs. Um you you look at even attractions like Las Vegas and and and even you look at laws like federal, provincial, and municipal laws have all changed now to compel companies. If there is a Canadian supplier in first instance, and I'm generalizing, but these are what the laws are saying. If there is a Canadian company in first instance, you need to buy Canadian. And and so I think politicians are seized with this. I think regulators are seized, and I think uh uh Canadians are, and I think it it is it is it's a mixed blessing with Mr. Trump. This actually has has got the perhaps unintended effect of strengthening our resiliency, our resolve, and our solidarity. So I I do think, Scott, that there is a direct relationship between buying Canadian and strengthening our our our uh our capacity to to to uh to uh feed ourselves and and and to and to and to buy Canadian. We're not a large country, so we're competing. And when you bring up dairy, for example, you know, we have very different regulations and safety and health, and we don't have long production lines like the American food company. So we it's in Canada's interest to start to develop this critical mass so that we can be self-reliant when it comes to food.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Do you think it's enough that President Trump was actually noticed? Well, he was noticed? No, do you uh do you think we it's been enough of a movement that President Trump has noticed?

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Yeah, I think he he watches television and he he sees uh Carney doing trade deals. I think there's been over a dozen deals in the last uh number of months. He's he's he's at any given day. I think he's in Ottawa this week, but he he had a uh uh deals with India, he's been to China, he's been to uh Indonesia, he's been to the Nordic countries. Um and I think Canadian businesses should be following suit so that we can begin to diversify our trade. You know, a worst case scenario, gentlemen, is that we we right now we're sort of living in a bit of a bubble because 85% of our goods are are tariff-free. They're Kuzma. And if if Trump and Trump can very easily, and he's already mused about this, he can very easily walk Kuzma back, uh, Canadian US uh Mexico Free Trade Agreement, and and impose a tariff like other countries of 10, 20, 30 percent. So I'm telling my boards that I work with, uh, listen, chances are you've got Kuzma, uh uh you've got it, you're under the Kuzma umbrella, but in the next six months, your your management team should should be bringing to you uh uh plans uh if there is a uh a walk back from Kuzma and if there are tariffs imposed on what were what were formerly tariff-free goods. So we're not out of the woods yet. We need, we, we have to negotiate Kuzma. And I think the Canadian public is really giving Carney a long leash because they realize that Mr. Trump is erratic and unpredictable at the best of times. But in a worst case scenario, we we might we might be we might our our tariff beyond the sectoral tariffs, our tariffs might be getting worse uh uh sooner than better. That's a later.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

That's a great point. I'm glad you brought that up. I appreciate it. What's the best case scenario for us, I see, a year from now then, Professor? I mean, is it to try to to drag this out as far as we the long as we can, these negotiations?

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Yeah, I think what I think the the c and I can't speak for the Canadian uh politicians, but I think the strategy is to wait this out and to and to hope that the midterms turn around the Senate and the House. And we we just had a a seat yester overnight that flipped to Democrats. So I think but but there there is a bit of a clock for Canada. I think um mid summer, June or July, um all three countries have to indicate whether they what they wish, if they wish Kuzma to continue or not. Um and there is there there are things that follow. So we can't indefinitely wait out the clock. Um uh, but we we we uh we we should be prepared for uh all uh scenarios. And you know, I just mentioned the worst case scenario. The best case scenario is that um we renew Kuzma in a way that gives Trump a win um and gives obviously Canada a win. And I think Carney is clever enough and the people around him that they're not gonna have a bad deal. So I think uh, you know, a best case scenario is we get an acceptable deal uh for another uh uh five, 10 years um so that we can continue our trading relationship with the United States. But at the same time, I think the rel, and these are not my words, these are Carney's words, I think the relationship between Canada and the US, the former relationship is over. And I think Canadians and regulators and provinces and territories have all come to realize that we can't have 85% of our trade with one country. And we never had, and this this started. You you remember in in 1989 with Brian Mulroney and and John Turner, the the the free trade agreement that started. I mean, over the last 35 years, we've been progressively intertwined with the United States. So I think we have to really um de-risk from that and and and become a little more resilient and have trade agreements with other countries.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

That's a great point. It's been a great conversation. Thank you so much, Professor. I do have one more question for me. You are a professor of governance, law, and ethics, and obviously a very smart guy. Ethics, I just think, Professor, has it ever been crazier the way the world has changed so much to be an ethics professor and thinking about ethical dilemmas we're facing as a world? You ever been ever had to put more thought than you do now?

SPEAKER_00 19:39

I I try not to use Trump in my classes uh repetitively, but I, you know, there's no shortage. It's it's on an hourly basis, right? So it's it's it's it's you just you read the news and I tell my students, right? Like I don't read my textbook, read the newspapers and and come to class and talk about ethical dilemmas. And and I said, okay, so what's our ethical dilemma for today? And uh and all the hands go up. So yes, it's it's a it's a good time for comedians and it's a good time for professors.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Great stuff. Uh on that note, uh Professor, before we let you go tonight, uh any final words?

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Uh well, I'm I'm glad that uh that you that the that the story is being pursued. I think it's important, and I think it's the thin edge of the wedge when it comes to Kuzma negotiations. But I think the stronger that we band together and support Canadian companies and Canadian workers, I think that uh nothing bad can come from that.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

Good stuff. From Toronto tonight, there's Richard LeBlanc, Professor of Governance, Law and Ethics at York University. Uh Professor, appreciate your time. Good to see you.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Thank you, gentlemen. Have a great day. Bye now.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Imagine being an ethics professor today.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

You wouldn't need a textbook. No, I couldn't even imagine, right? It's like I think we he'll he might argue, but I think we've reached the end of ethics. There's no more ethics anymore. No, no, there's out the window. Ethical frameworks are uh out the window. But it's interesting because you think of the he said he advises a lot of boards and talks about these and it is reputational damage is so important, right? And your reputation is everything if you run a business, right? So people are all up in arms about oh,$10,000 fine. That's nothing. That's peanuts for these guys. Yeah, it is. But their name on the cover of the newspaper or on closer look, I mean, that's you can't come, you can't recover from that. Priceless. You can't recover from that. So put a price on it. Great conversation. I was nice, glad that we got to meet Richard and that our listeners and viewers got to meet Richard. I asked him if we can keep him on our Rolodex, and so I'm sure we'll have him back for some other ethical discussions down the road.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Absolutely. All right. Uh that's it for uh us uh this evening. Closerlook at villagemedia.ca. That's our uh email address. Reach out anytime. And of course, you can uh sign up to receive episodes straight to your inbox free of charge. Closerlookpodcast.ca. For uh Zach Tronzo, executive producer of this evening's program, and Michael Friscoletti, our editor-in-chief. I'm Scott Sexmith. Uh, thanks for joining us. Oh, don't forget, Dan Schulman, tomorrow night. Seven o'clock prior to the start of the baseball season. Let's go. Let's go. Go Jays. See you tomorrow night right here in Closer Look.