AI robots for seniors? Time we start talking about our aging population

In Ontario, the number of people over the age of 80 is set to soar — and advocates say we're not doing enough to prepare for the demographic shift.

We are definitely not alone. Countries around the world are grappling to prepare for the inevitable rise in elderly populations. 

Could AI dolls help combat loneliness among seniors? Are robots the answer, a hi-tech way to help elderly people perform basic tasks? Those options — and many more — are on the table.

On tonight's episode of Village Media's Closer Look podcast, we revisit our recent interview with Laura Tamblyn Watts, the CEO of CanAge, a national, non-partisan organization that works to improve the lives of older adults through advocacy, policy and community engagement.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

You know, in Canada we have one geriatrician for every twenty-one thousand seniors.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Welcome back to uh Closer Look. I'm Scott Sexmith with Michael Friscolani, our editor-in-chief here at Village Media, Zach Tronzo, uh, in the room as well. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

Do we call this breaking news? I don't know. I just I can't I just realize we're both wearing gray jackets. It's like we're hosting the Masters or something. Hello, friends. That's right. We have lots of friends on the show. We do. I would call it breaking news. I guess I think it's breaking news, yeah. Um we've been doing this daily podcast forever. Ever. Yeah. We've first a weekly, then a daily. Uh we started this in the summer, last summer. So it's been what we're going at this about eight months as strong. We've been doing it. Yep. And it's been a great ride. We've had uh uh uh some really fantastic guests, some really newsworthy guests, um, who've tackled a lot of big issues and it's been a lot of fun to do this day after day and really kind of pump this out and turn this out. I think it's been a great product across the village network. Um it's been well received, lots of traffic, uh, and uh lots of feedback from our listeners and viewers. Uh and I think it's the the journalism's been really good. It's but if it's been an opportunity for us to welcome some of our journalists and and introduce them to you and then hear what they have to say about important issues. Um but we're we're changing things up a little bit. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Shaking her up. Uh yeah. The the bottom line is we have a lot going on here. It's uh there's a lot of exciting things at Village. Me and you have a lot of things going on.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Well, we should be clear, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:45

This is not our only thing that we do. Because if it was, you'd wonder, oh man, is this all these guys doing? They pay them that much money to do that. Aaron Powell Yeah. And there is there are some days where it is a a scramble because we want to put out a good show. And so and we we we we do do that. Um but we need to prioritize on some other things for the next little while. So we're gonna change the show a little bit uh to a weekly show that runs on the weekend. Right. Um still focused on getting big important guests that we want to get and to tackle uh um you know issues that are on people's minds. Yeah. Um and so the plan is for the show to be a weekly episode that runs most likely on Sunday mornings. We'll have a little more details on that coming out. Um in a way I'm I'm excited about it. I think it's a I think it's gonna give us an opportunity to even dive a little deeper into some of the stuff that we do. Yeah. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Uh I'm excited about it. I mean, we know uh around here that the only constant is change. Uh we know that we work in a very fast-paced uh environment uh where there's lots of things to do. Things are changing uh literally daily. Um and you know, to your point, uh this is not all we do, and we have other you know tasks and responsibilities. So we just kind of need to pivot a little bit to uh focus on those things uh a little more prominently uh for the time being. Uh but you're right. I think uh I think the weekly show will be that much better uh and give us uh that much more time to uh, as you say, dive a little deeper into the content.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

Aaron Powell, I think so. We'd like to hear what you have to say as well. I mean, if you've if you've enjoyed listening to the show or enjoyed watching the show, reach out to us and let us know. What's the email again? I can't believe it. I still could. Every night I say it's closer look something at something.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

It certainly is. Closerlook at villagemedia.ca. So we'll have more on that. Uh likely Friday, we'll we'll do a much deeper dive in. Talk a little more about it for sure. Okay. To today's show. Uh no uh stranger uh to this uh program, certainly the topic AI. We seem to talk about it almost daily. Aaron Powell But now uh it seems uh we're gonna revisit a uh a discussion that we had, but uh AI as it relates to seniors and how it may help them. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Two topics we always seem to talk about AI on this show and seniors. And seniors. Yeah. Now we're gonna marry the two. That's right. Uh just because I've you've seen head we've seen headlines lately about how you know AI could be used in a lot of positive ways to help with an aging population. And we know that the population is aging. We've talked about this on the show with multiple guests uh and the different challenges that presents. Um so we've seen headlines recently and some, you know, some big research being done on like AI dolls for elderly people, uh robots that can help with daily tasks. That means instead of having a home care system, they have these robots. But basically the bottom line of all these stories is that this is a major, I don't want to say crisis, but it's a major wave coming. And that raises all kinds of questions about, you know, the uh having the resources in place to deal with the rising cases of dementia, for example, which we've talked about on this show, um, to make sure that there's enough long-term care places for people who will need it. But also if there's that there's things in place for people to continue to age at home, right? And the provincial government, uh, in their latest budget, the Ford government, I believe it's$1.1 million billion dollars more into stay-at-home care uh options where people can stay in their home longer. And it just reminded me of this conversation we had uh with Laura Tamblin Watts, who's with CanAge, which is an advocacy organization that really pushes for these kind of this kind of thinking. Like her one of their pitches is we need to have a minister of the elderly on the in cabinet or minister of aging, right? To make sure that everything we think about in our society should be thinking about how do we how does this apply to the aging population? Because it's it's going to impact everything from health care to all kinds of different resources. Um it was a great conversation. She was very engaging and super smart, and I thought, you know, in light of all the stuff that's going on, it'd be great to revisit that and let people who missed it have a listen.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

Ontario is about to get a lot older and fast. Within 15 years, more than 1.5 million Ontarians will be over the age of 80, part of what experts call a global megatrend on the scale of artificial intelligence or climate change. But while other jurisdictions are building comprehensive plans to prepare for longer lives, advocates say Ontario is still dealing with aging in silos, reacting to crisis instead of planning for longevity. Laura Tamblin Watts is the CEO of Can Age, a national advocacy uh organization, and she's joining us uh tonight uh from beautiful Whistler, B.C. Laura, welcome to Closer Luck. We appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Great to be here.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Okay, uh, Laura, we'll get into uh aging and and this megatrend uh as it's been referred to. Uh but let's start with your organization, Can Age. Tell us about it and the work that you and your team are doing.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

We want to make sure that Canada is the best possible place to age for all Canadians. Certainly we all know about the demographic shifts. And in fact, this year we became a super aging country with one out of every five people over the age of 65. So our organization works to support all kinds of initiatives at the local, the national, and even the international level to try to make sure that we have what we need in order to make sure that we age safely and well.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

All right, good stuff. I appreciate that description. Okay, let's get to the uh aging population. And we mentioned it off the top within 15 years, there will be more than 1.5 million Ontarians over the age of 80. When you look at Ontario right now, Laura, what's what's the biggest blind spot in how we're preparing for that older population?

SPEAKER_01 7:27

The biggest blind spot is that we're not preparing for it at all. What we do well in Ontario is crisis funding. And I think it has to be said that the Ford government has done a lot in little areas. They've done a lot of investment in long-term care. There's no question about it. But you can build a lot of beds. And by the way, a million dollars a bed right now for a new build. Wow, wow. But we don't have enough people to staff them. And it's not necessarily places that people want to be anyway. So what we what we don't have is a strategy for longevity. We need a ministry of longevity. It's actually a good news story, but it's bad news if we're not planning and we're just putting money here and there and trying to put out crisis fires. It's not the way forward.

SPEAKER_03 8:14

I think what you're saying, too, is we have to look and think way beyond long-term care. That can't be the only thing. Right. Okay, I'm gonna be over 80, so I'm gonna go live in a long-term care home, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

And that's actually not what people either want or generally what they need. Uh, in fact, very few of us will ever end up in long-term care. When we think about what we need for that ministry of longevity or our aging strategy, we need somebody who's empowered to look across the different ministries and say, okay, transportation, how are we building our systems to make sure that they're accessible and they get people to where they need to be? Okay, we're gonna look at municipalities and parks. How do we make sure that people can get out and about, that they don't become lonely and isolated, that there are enough accessible ways to enjoy different parks. We can put bathroom splaces and benches. I mean, some of them are really easy. And then at the more structural level, how are we thinking about our health and housing? Do you know we have about one uh one pediatrician for every 2,000 kids, 17 and under, about one for 2,000. Do you know in Canada we have one geriatrician for every 21,000 seniors? And we have far more older people than we do have kids. And those numbers are represented in Ontario as well. So we need to be doing some thinking about where we're investing and encouraging things in our healthcare system, our housing system, and our broader social system.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Laura, I know places like uh California and New York have implemented master plans uh for aging. What have they done that Ontario could realistically adopt?

SPEAKER_01 9:54

The good news is actually there's terrific things that they could have done that we could adopt. And it's not just the 22 US states that have done it, but actually every other jurisdiction in the OECD. You know, Canada is the only country in the OECD that does not have an aging strategy. And Ontario, in many ways, is a little country, right? It actually has such a profound population and GDP that it's fair to think of Ontario as its own jurisdiction like California or New York. So what they've done is they've got a person that really is charged to make sure that every single spend and every single strategic plan that's coming out of the government across all of the ministries is building out how aging and longevity is being thought through and where their money and their initiatives are focused. So that doesn't mean don't put money into hospitals. Of course we do. But what we need to do is shift so much of our crisis health funding to things like vaccinations, to things like preventive health, home care. We know that these are the cheapest and most effective things that we can do. And so each of New York and California and all of the other OECD countries in those 22 states have got this. And it doesn't just stretch in health, as we say. It's about things like building supplies. How are we thinking about building not just new communities but new residences? Are we using inclusive design? Are we changing those standards? If we don't have to design housing so that people cannot have to age out of them, people will stay in their own homes for longer, which is what we want and what we need.

SPEAKER_03 11:33

For sure, it's what so many of the people want. We've heard that over and over in different research, different surveys. Just back to the number you throw out there 21,000 um patients per one doctor who specializes in health. That's if they'd have to see 57 patients a day of 365 days a year. I just took out my trusty. That's that's bonkers. That's crazy. But my question, Laura, is what's the why isn't Canada with everyone else on this? Why are we so far behind?

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Now, this is a question I get up with and wrestle in the morning. I think we all do as well. I think it comes from a good sense of Canadianism. And I so I say this with generosity of spirit. We're really proud of our healthcare system, rightly so. We're proud of our social systems. We take care of each other rightly so. But what we're not always good at is planning. And I think that this federal government, and for that matter, this provincial government, is really having to confront, it takes a long time to make one geriatrician. So you have to think about that 12 years before. It takes a long time to change building codes. Well, it doesn't have to, but it does seem to change, take a long time to build in codes to change. And so these are things that take preparatory action. And we usually think about how are we going to get elected, right? Almost immediately. When's the next election? How are we thinking about our election cycle? But when you think about where affordability and what people want intersect, it's around these types of investments. So we need to simply make sure that we're encouraging the labor force, frankly, to stay and work longer because we're going to be in a major labor crisis. So we have to make sure that people can afford to do that and that businesses have flexibility. We need people to stay in their houses longer. So we need to make houses much more accessible and bring home care into those houses. Why we haven't done it? I think we just figured we would do it in strong Canadian spirit. We just sort of figure it out. And it's not what's working.

SPEAKER_03 13:25

That's a great answer. I'm fascinated by this issue of staying in your house because that's the key we hear from so many different people that want to stay at home. And you talk about making your homes more accessible or making sure there is housing that people can transition into. So it's not from the house they maybe raise their kids in to the long-term care home. There's got to be something else. Where is that working? Who's doing that? Is there any community in Canada that's doing a good job of that?

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Well, actually, there are really great examples. I'm here in British Columbia today, and British Columbia has been innovative, although this last budget wouldn't suggest that. But previously, BC has been very innovative. It's got a seniors advocate who is really that conscience of the government, arm's length, but part of the government that is putting out reports, that is reviewing what's important, that is actually holding government to account. It's been very effective, and they've had that for more than a decade. We're also seeing that British Columbia has some mortgage backing. So BC housing will actually help to uh support and fund some of the development of innovative housing or even health models. Things like dementia villages are out here and just starting in Ontario. So we're really seeing some jurisdictions pay attention to it.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

Dementia villages, I never heard that term. That's a thing.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

It's wonderful, actually. So if we think about how people need to age in a supportive and inclusive environment and what we don't want, you don't want the old nursing home warehousing model. We've all got that horrid in our head. It doesn't need to be like that. We have communities that are called a campus of care. And in the sort of first set of buildings, for instance, there's just independent housing, like your mom might want to live in. Maybe there's some great activities there, some really interesting opportunities to live a really vital and uh an independent life. And when they need help, some home care can come in. And then you move to perhaps the next building over or just more care layers in ideally, and you get that assisted living, that retirement home type of supports. If you need that 24-7 nursing care, again, it's on that same place. Maybe it's a slightly different building, but it looks the same. The people are dressed as regular people, they're not in these medical costumes that we always worry about. And part of that can be what's called a dementia village, where really everybody there has got significant cognitive impairment and it looks like a small town. There's a grocery store, there's a barber shop, there are all the different things that you find on Main Street, and it's all people who have specialized training. And so people go to work, if you will, they go shopping, if you will, they eat, they make their food. And what we know is that this reduces those aggressive behaviors. It makes people who have significant cognitive impairment feel really part of a great community. And staff like to work there. And that is a big piece because so often when we design systems badly, we can't keep staff in one place. And that's something Ontario has. About 18 months is the average amount of time someone will work in seniors' care. And unless we change that to some of these new models, we're gonna see that churn through. That doesn't help us at all.

SPEAKER_03 16:30

That's a great point. It's fascinating. We always talk about how we learn something new every day on this show. That's what I learned today. So thank you for that. We talk a lot too about whether whatever the issue is, whether it's the opioid crisis, for example, or mental health issues in in this country. We always talk about the goal of trying to keep people out of emergency rooms. We need to think outside of that, right? Can you speak to that in this in this case, Laura? That's the really the key here is to figure out how to not be in the point of crisis all the time.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

There's a few things that you can do, and this is the really recipe for success on this one. You know, number one, get every vaccination you possibly can. And I mean, I know people get tired of hearing COVID-19 and so on and so forth. But did you know that the shingrix vaccine, the shingles vaccine, is actually about 24% protective for dementia? Also, you don't get shingles, right? Um, and so when we're thinking about it, imagine if you had a vaccine for dementia, I mean, everybody would take it. And that's also one of the biggest things that we need to think about our aging population. And yet, we know across this country, getting the shingles vaccine can be a real challenge. We fought really hard in Ontario and we have it covered. In fact, many of the vaccines Ontario does cover, which has been the source of great initiatives for people, but get vaccinated. Number two, do not fall. And boy, you know, I was in Toronto just yesterday and it was minus 18, and either one was slipping and falling. Do not fall. The average amount of time a person who falls and breaks a hip, if they're over the age of 80, will live. It's about, you know, well, you got about 50% chance of living one year. And then if you manage to make past one year, your chances of, you know, living in the next year goes down again by about 75%. So your chances of dying is very, very high. And if you manage not to die, your chances of ever walking again in a really normal, able way is significantly reduced. So do not fall, right? Number three, stay socially connected. And it is so important. We know we think about things like, well, how does that a social connection, how does that connect with an emergency room? It absolutely does. The less socially connected you are, the less opportunity you have. You use your brain to use your body to feel good. It's not just a mental health issue. If a person is lonely, it takes up to about eight years off of their life and increases your chances of dementia by almost 40%. So staying socially connected is really a health issue. If you can manage to do those two, those three things, pardon me, you're gonna be ahead of the game and you're probably not gonna be in the ER.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Wow, that's great advice. I mean, you've fired up all the anti-vaxxers, Laura, but uh that's that's another episode.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Listen, I mean, it absolutely, and you know, it's so interesting that this is even a political issue because it is the number one best thing that you can do for yourself, for your community, for your office and for the country and for the health and social care system. Remember lining up for your COVID vaccines? I drove to a different part of Ontario to get mine, but uh now people are feeling hesitant, and that's just got to go away. The number one best thing you can do for your own health is to get vaccinated against every possible thing. All right, good stuff. Uh, what are some other upstream uh solutions, Laura? We know that housing is a huge issue for people. There's no question about that. And the idea of the big family house, uh it's okay. Uh, many people think, well, why don't you just move out of that and use that money to live somewhere else? You'll have more money because outliving your money is a real thing. It is actually not just a fear, it's a reality. The challenge is there's almost nowhere to move to. And they gotta take a minute to think about that. That's especially true in rural areas. A lot of Ontario's rural, a lot of Canada's rural. In fact, about 65% of people who live in rural communities are seniors. And so if you sell the big family house, which you've probably paid off and it probably has lots of stairs and it, you know, maybe have transportation issues and so on and so forth, there's nowhere to move to because the new building codes are not inclusive. And in fact, the costs of living in your own home, you can often defer property taxes. You can usually use some of the different tax benefits to be there. And the cost of moving itself is really prohibitive and really disorienting. So thinking about different ways of intergenerational housing, that's really coming back. Uh, granny flats, although I didn't use the name or no, use the name, those types of laneway housing or breaking into other types of intergenerational co-opting housing. The the Golden Girls model is really, really taking off where you buy a piece or take one person's house and you break it into different places and share some common services. Often folks will bring in some health care, some community care, a chef to help you. And so these types of housing with supports, thinking about what makes sense financially and physically. Well, we always say that health and wealth are only one letter apart. And that is a really good way of thinking about it.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Yeah, no kidding. Uh, okay, Laura, let's say that you've uh you've gotten the premier's ear uh and he says, okay, let's uh let's do this, let's put a plan together. What's the first step and what would you tell him the first year should look like?

SPEAKER_01 21:36

You need to give that person some power and some budget. What we have, of course, is a minister for seniors, and good people have been in that role. I'm not, I'm not criticizing that, but they're often token ministries with no power, or just they're a nice place to go and you give a handshake and you talk to senior centers. And that's important to some degree, but it doesn't have any power. And what it can often do is shunt off these issues. Into, well, that's a seniors ministry question. No, longevity is everybody's question and in fact should be the core of your business model. Premier Ford always talks about running the province like a business. All right, let's see your strategic plan for your business. Who are your customers now and who are your customers going to be in five and 10 years? And let's see that build out. So, what I would like to see is a robust strategy, but having every single ministry have to allocate some part of its budget to the longevity piece of it and to make sure that when they're making a decision, let's see that they're going to build some housing in Barrie or they're going to make investment in transportation up in North Bay. How is that affecting the aging population now and in the future? And again, we've got great models in other jurisdictions. We could just change them a little bit and make them Ontarian. And I tell you, the money that we're spending in crisis is burning hot and fast. What we need to do is, like a good business, strategize where those investments are actually needed and then follow through with those. More geriatricians, fewer pediatricians.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

Are people listening to you, Laura? Have anyone in the Ontario government, for example, reached out to you or have a conversation with you?

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Absolutely. This is not a new suggestion. And it's not only our organization, can age, but actually, this is one of those areas where really all organizations agree. In fact, if you look at the most recent budget submissions from even the long-term care associations, Advantage Ontario and OLTCA, home care associations, community-based organizations, dementia organizations like the Alzheimer's, we're all calling for the same thing. The question will be do they have the courage to confront the fact that they haven't done anything yet? It's okay. You know, the time to start was always five years ago or yesterday, but now is just as good in many cases because we are not getting any younger. That's the good news. But we're not getting any smarter, would be the bad news.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

Yeah, that makes sense. Last question from me, Laura. You did touch on you giving a lot of good advice in this conversation, but we have listeners for sure who are in their 70s right now, even in their 80s, listening to this show and thinking about a lot of the questions we're talking about. What's your biggest piece of advice for them?

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Take it seriously and plan ahead. I actually wrote a book called Let's Talk About Aging Parents. And one of the best parts about it is that it's not just people in their middle years that are buying the book. It's a handbook, really, about the 27 different things that you need to talk about and plan for and walk you all the way through it as a guidebook. What I've loved is that people in their 70s, 80s, and even 90s are buying it and handing it out to their kids and their grandkids and saying, here, I've put some tape flags on certain things. Don't forget that your own personal planning is critically important, right? That we can't just assume the government is going to do everything. And in this case, just by numbers, the government's gonna be able to do less and less. So don't assume that these things are all gonna be paid for. They're not presume you're gonna live much longer than you think you're gonna live. That's the good news. And actually make sure that you're keeping your money for the times that you need it, which tends to be the last two years of your life. Get your powers of attorney done and get your will done. It matters a lot. And those things you can do for free. I prefer you get some legal advice. That's the lawyer and me. But regardless, it's critically important that you take care of your own decisions and not just let everything happen to you.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Good stuff. Uh, Laura, before we let you go, anything that we didn't cover on this issue that uh you want to bring up?

SPEAKER_01 25:19

It's good news. This is actually a good news story, not a bad news story. We are living better and we know how to do it in other jurisdictions. We've got a great roadmap, and frankly, everybody agrees what needs to happen. So the best thing to do is to lend your voice as we're moving into this budget by saying, How are we thinking about aging and longevity?

SPEAKER_02 25:39

All right, good stuff. There's Laura Tamplin Watts, the Chief Executive Officer at Can Age. Uh Laura, we appreciate your time tonight. Thank you. Thank you. I always love revisiting uh great conversations that we've had in the past. And as I was listening to Laura, it was like, oh, yeah, right. She introduced us to uh dementia villages.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Yes, which is a thing that I didn't even know about, but apparently is a thing. Yeah, yeah. Where they kind of it's uh kind of a place where it's built over it still seems familiar. There's like places you there's grocery stores and restaurants, but it's really a place for people where people with suffering from dementia can live safely. And there's workers that want to be there, but it feels more like a comfortable space as opposed to a long-term care home. And apparently these are getting gaining more and more popularity, and these are the kinds of things they need to think about as the population gets older. All right, good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Uh coming up uh tomorrow night on the program, it seems uh some policy changes at uh Canada's Wonderland.

SPEAKER_03 26:31

Yeah, this headline caught my eye. I don't know if you saw it, but uh they're now introducing a chaperone policy. So anyone 15 and under after 4 p.m. has to have an adult chaperone over 21. Wow. So I guess you know, obviously in the old days, if you were a kid and you had a pass, maybe you lived in the area or you were visiting, you could just stay there till it closed if you were, you know, 13 years old with your buddies running around Wonderland going the road. But I guess there's been some incidents that have triggered this new chaperone uh policy. And uh we're gonna talk a little bit more of that with some from Canada's Wonderland. We'll have a whole bunch of other questions because I think Canada's Wonderland is a place that everybody's it's in their heart in some way. They all have a Canada's Wonderland story.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

I you know what? I I bet you just about every uh school kid in the province at at least once has been there. A lot of overnight bus rides from uh from faraway places, yeah. Can confirm. There you go. All right, we'll talk some more about that too. Looking forward to it. Closerlook at villagemedia.ca. That is our email address. Reach out anytime. That's it for us tonight for Zach Trunzo, our uh producer here in studio. Michael Friscolanti, our editor-in-chief. I'm Scott Sexmith. Thanks for your time. See you back here tomorrow night, 7 o'clock, right here on Closer Look.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Frisco and Scott's wardrobe, provided in part by Morris Clothing for Men.