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AI, Agile & The Future of Work: ALI Labs
Jason Yip - Tactics for influencing leaders at different levels - Agile Lean Ireland Meetup
There are different levels of leaders, each of which require different tactics to influence. Jason will describe the differences he's seen between leaders at different levels (leaders of individual contributers, leaders of leaders, leaders of leaders of leaders) and then explore different tactics that seem to work better or worse for each level.
Speaker's Bio
Jason is a Staff Agile Coach at Spotify NYC and has been there since 2015 supporting Spotify Advertising, mostly around managing the effects of scaling and supporting leadership teams. Prior to Spotify, he was a Principal Consultant at ThoughtWorks since 2001, mostly in Australia. While there, he supported and was a committer on the CruiseControl Open Source continuous integration server. He first encountered Extreme Programming in 1999.
He mostly writes on Twitter (@jchyip) and Medium (https://jchyip.medium.com). His most popular writing seems to be "It's Not Just Standing Up: Patterns for Daily Standup Meetings" (https://www.martinfowler.com/articles/itsNotJustStandingUp.html) and "Why T-Shaped People" (https://jchyip.medium.com/why-t-shaped-people-e8706198e437)
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Three primary leader levels of leadership that I'm going to talk about and kind of where I'm mostly exposed to level 1 leaders of teams and individuals, Level 2 leader of leaders Level 3 leader of leaders of leaders and it can keep going. So I don't talk about. 4 and up, but like my kind of convention here is I just add another number every time you go another layer. Sure, but depending how large organisation is, you can have leaders of leaders, of leaders, of leaders and so on and so forth. Sometimes that hierarchy shifts and almost always it shifts just because you start getting a problem with scaling type issues. So usually there's some kind of adjustment here for the most part with any. I think the kind of L1 to L3 thing which people might say like a manager, a director of EP type structure tends to be quite common, so I'll stick with that. It starts getting into things that I'm. As exposed to so I don't really want to comment too much about that. OK, so. Given that, that's just kind of give a sense of what I'm talking about of different levels of leadership, let's look at tactics for influence at each level. Starting with the L1 leaders. So if we talk, think about and I don't know what kind of. I actually assume everyone has exposure to a leader as long as you've ever been exposed to like reporting to someone. So if you, what do people wear like? That's first level. What they tend to do, like what occupies their time. What I typically like these are kind of the. The typical things that I've seen fills up most of the time 1. They're growing individuals or they're growing teams, so whatever that might look like in terms of how how they do that development, but they're spending a lot of time growing individuals and teams, they're engaged in hiring and firing depending on the higher rate of the organisation that may eat up a lot of time or not that much time. They're typically involved in facilitating delivery, so given this is like the first level of management, they're still pretty close to what is required to deliver outcomes. So they may be involved in that. Depending on the organisation, they may be even accountable for that, so they spend a lot of time on it. Or not. And finally, they will be the first point of contact for any issues. Meaning if there's an escalation, there's questions, some larger change occurred and people are asking like getting support or whatever for that, I'll one leader is the first point of contact for the vast majority. Obviously, if you are a leader, your first point of contact, whoever you report to, but the L1 leaders. Are the the vast majority of the organisation will be reporting to this because most people will be individual contributors rather than managers hopeful. If your if your organisation has mostly managers and not a lot of individual contractors, then there's probably some bigger problem which I don't. I'm not going. To bother talking about. OK, so this is the the this is where they occupy their time. And these are the. These are the problems that I. Think I've found typically show up because of these are where they spend their time and which also are opportunities for leverage to influence so. Depending on the level of experience with the this leader to like, if you are a first time leader, you're very likely to be a Level 1 leader, right? Because you've never let anyone before, so you're going to be just leading teams and individuals, not leading other leaders. That's unlikely. So which means that a lot of these things are associated with learning. Proud to be like your first time leader type stuff, so growing individuals teams like maybe you had experience with that doing as an individual contributor or this could be your first time starting to be the person that is listening asking questions, getting giving feedback to people. That sort of stuff. This might be the first time you're dealing with hiring and firing and generally like that is probably the most severe version of things, but things that require like they're very strong emotional context and high stakes type situations. So how do you deal with that, which you might not have been dealing with as much? The facilitation of delivery, a kind of typical problem I see is. Just shifting from oh, I I just as an individual contributing, you could just do it yourself and but now you're that's not what you should be doing cause you're facilitating you're not driving delivery per say or like running delivery. And then when you're the first point of contact, so something large happens in the organisation. Maybe you weren't even involved in that, and yet you're still the first person people talk to. How do you deal with that? And these kind of are the forces given these are the troubles that typical for the L1 leader. That means my tactics here tend to reflect those things. The general theme I have for when you're trying to influence a Level 1 leader is you're trying to help them learn how to be more effective as a leader from the baseline level. So three things, three things here. The first one is the facility, how do you effectively facilitate delivery? Second one is how to delegate and empower. And the third one is how to deal with difficult conversations, especially the emotional aspect of it. OK, so this this one the. Facilitating the delivery as in like I say here, this is where you share or apply useful agile lean concepts and practises to help them solve delivery problems. This is typically what I've done to influence level 1 leaders. I don't really intend to talk a lot, I'm not well, I'm not going to. Talk a lot. About this mainly because I think even for this. Crowd, this is. Typical stuff, right? We're an agile lien meet up. This is normal. Stuff not, not nothing particularly interesting here, but this is where you go. OK, there are these sort of things that maybe these are kind of easy for us. They're actually most useful when you're talking about L1 leaders who are concerned about facilitating delivery like considered delivery problems. OK, I've got tricks that I can share. And then you find the useful, that kind of stuff. This is where that fits. I'll talk later about, like this. Doesn't this problem or this concern doesn't hold later on? So that's why some things just don't work as well. OK. The second thing because hey, they're trying to learn how to empower and delegate, et cetera, sharing useful models for empowerment. So hey, I'm a new leader. I can help you work out how to think about empowerment. So not just as a one line word, but how do you structure it such that you can gradually increase the ability to delegate? And be able to trust that people do stuff. That's the one I the model that I've typically used and I like is called the ladder of leadership. This is by Al David Marquette. He wrote a book called Turn the ship around. Actually, how many people have read turned the ship around? I'm curious. I see one hand, but I can only see one hand. OK, I saw a couple. Oh, yeah, if you you raise the. If you use the zoom thing, then I'll see your. I'll see it pop up. So that actually helps. OK, so it's a good book to read. It is about. Creating more leaders, which is effectively what the like a good OL1 leaders, that's what they're trying to do, right? So they're trying to free up time, build people up. And I like this thing, it kind of says, hey, no matter what level someone is at, you can always move up to the next level. So if they're, if they're kind of someone reporting to you and they always want. You to tell them what to do. You can at least get them to start sharing their observations of what's going on, and then if they do that, then they get them to to share what they're thinking about, what they're seeing, and then if they're thinking. About things you asked them, what they they would like to do and if they're able to say what they would like to do, you ask them what they intend to do and then if they talk about what they intend to do, you you, you essentially say why haven't you already done it really so and then if they are doing things like then you kind of move on to their reading. So this is all. Step by step, how do you get someone from tell me what to? Due to taking their own initiative, being more independent, growing into a leader themselves, that sort of thing, and this is this type of discussion seems to happen quite a bit more at the L1 leader side, especially with newer leaders. But even with more experienced ones, because this is a very common thing. General idea here is doing. This means that they find you useful, and then you can influence various things. The last thing that I think a technique that seems to be or a tactic that seems to be most useful for influencing our leaders, is sharing useful models for and helping them practise for difficult conversations. So the picture here I have is from crucial conversations like they talk about conversations that. Or have differing opinions, strong emotions, high S. Which is the most difficult conversations to have and how to go about that? I found like helping someone learn how to deal with something like that, which is quite scary if you're not used to it, even if you are trained and used to it it it's not. It's it maybe still be a little bit scary. So having being supportive there being ready to help them with that including role play simulation to help them practise that does buy you a lot of influence. And so then they one like they they go, OK, this person is helping me do my job more effectively. But also you're already into now you can talk about serious things because you're both understand a model for. How to do that? OK, Karsten, you raised your hand.
I forgot to lower it after you asked about who.
OK. Thank you. OK. Yeah. OK. Thank you. Yeah, perfect. Makes sense. Thank you.
I have more kind of. A personal question, Jason, why did you decide to unpick this subject?
It's just kind of a. Sorry, I was just getting echo there.
Thank you. Yeah, I enjoyed. It very much thank you.
Uh, I guess, Erin, you have your hand.
Yeah, I have a quick question so.
You talked about. You know, working with L3 leaders to help them become L2 leaders, L2 to become L1.
This other way around? Yes. Sorry otherwise.
Yeah, maybe an infinite number. The L's can go on forever.