Shane Hastie - Introducing the ICAgile Principles of Lean Portfolio Management - Agile Lean Ireland Meetup

Talk Description:
Adaptive/Lean Portfolio Management (LPM) is key to effectively becoming an agile organisation and can be considered one of the pillars of business agility. In this talk Shane introduces the key ideas around LPM, discusses the 12 principles of Lean Portfolio Management from ICAgile, how they translate into an adaptive strategy and from there into effective execution and some common pitfalls to avoid when shifting to an adaptive portfolio.

Speaker's Bio:
Over the last 35+ years Shane has been a practitioner and leader of developers, testers, trainers, project managers and business analysts, helping teams to deliver results that align with overall business objectives. He spent 20+ years as a professional trainer, coach and consultant specialising in Agile practices, business analysis, project management, requirements, testing methodologies in Australia, New Zealand and around the world. He has worked with large and small organisations, from individual teams to large transformations all around the world, across all levels of Information Technology and software intensive product development.
Shane was a director of the Agile Alliance from 2011 to 2016 and was the founding Chair of Agile Alliance New Zealand. He is co-chair of the Agile Alliance Agile Coaching Ethics initiative, working to produce a code of ethical conduct for agile coaching. He is an ICF registered Professional Coach.

He leads the Culture and Methods editorial team for InfoQ.com where he hosts the weekly InfoQ Culture Podcast. He is co-author of the recent book #noprojects - A Culture of Continuous Value, available on Amazon and from InfoQ

He was the Director of Community Development for ICAgile from 2017 to 2022. He has re-joined SoftEd as the Head of Global Delivery from February 2022.
“I firmly believe that humanistic way of working and the agile mindset are desperately needed in organisations all around the globe today. Taking agile values and principles beyond software is important and making sure they are properly embedded is absolutely crucial for success – we’re in an industry that touches every aspect of people’s lives and massively influences society as a whole and I want to be a part of making sure that industry is both ethical and sustainable.”

Find us here: www.agileleanireland.org

Transcript

Thank you very much for joining and a few words about Shane. So Shane recently added join global delivery lead as a global delivery lead and he joined the team in software. Before that he was a director of Community Development in IC Agile. Before that he was board of directors with Azure. Aliens. He has loads of experience and loads of hands on, you know, practical. It's it's not academical but it's hands on experience changes, also qualified coach. And very kindly agree with us to share with us today the principles of Lean portfolio management according to ICR curriculum. Shane, would you like to add something about yourself with what whatever I missed or whatever you would like to share with our community?

No, just thank you very, very much for inviting me along. I suppose something I can share is. Aside from all of that, I am a father and a grandfather. I have five children, 7 grandchildren. So I've done my bit for the global population explosion. Excellent. So let's just get straight into things as sorry not Paula. Joanna as Joanna said. I recently moved on from ICC Agile, but one of the things that we did while I was there and still remain very much a part of the broader icy anti our community was work on the learning outcomes for the new LEAN portfolio certification. And when doing that work, we identified a bit of a gap. And we wanted to explore what were the underlying principles of Lean portfolio management and and came up with the A set of nine principles, which we'll go through today. But before we get to that. Let's have let's have some discussion and.

I'll I'll comment on this. I think it's because people are complicated and have different backgrounds on what lean means. Portfolio management means they have different levels of exposure to macro level strategy to tactical issues. So it's almost like it comes and understanding. And it's completely different for everyone involved. So people are complicated. That's that's my answer.

Thank you.

There's still a feeling that this is somehow an undisciplined approach to managing an enterprises resources we have to deal with the fact that for the last 40 to 50 years, people have been taught what is a proper, disciplined and responsible way to manage and. That's been A and enterprises, assets and resources and. It takes a lot to unlearn that.

As we measure people by by efficiency, give me a programming unit and keep it occupied 100%, yeah. Senior leadership paid to make decisions so they can prove their experience and worth it. Umm pushing products to the market. People don't like change personal priorities so. Yeah, the. Not an easy answer to any of these. But I wonder how? And we'll explore a couple, at least one organisation who's done this differently. Learning new stuff. But these ideas? I'm not particularly new this. This was something when we started doing the work. We definitely found that the the. There were organisations, there are pockets up there that have been doing this well and there are companies that have been doing this well for a long, long time. It's it's not as if this is a a brand new way of doing things that it that emerged magically in the last five years. In 10 years. It it it predates the the 21 years of the Agile Manifesto and in fact you can look there are examples that go back. To at least the the 40s, fifties and before. So these ideas have been mulling around in in this I think what's happened the the the radical changes over the last couple of years has forced organisations to to perhaps then tackle some of this hard change. And I hope. That these changes are going to be persistent and that we're going to see more and more organisations adopt the the the thinking that goes into this and the ways of working so. My agenda for our our time together and we have another 45 minutes left is I'll define what we came up with. From IC agile perspective of what we what do we mean by it? By Lean portfolio management and then we'll explore the 9 principles that make up the the core of this of this conversation today. We'll have a bit of a conversation then and then we'll look at examples of making it real and some anti patterns that we have seen and I'm hoping we're gonna have another couple of opportunities for conversations amongst the the group as well. This I want this to be a conversation, not a, not a monologue. So that's where we go. So lean portfolio management and enables rapid learning, adaptation and responsive change. So it it it, it isn't the doing so, but it does firmly enable this in organisations. It provides A mechanism for organisations and we come to some of the things that we're in the chat window there to fund and manage the flow of initiatives and activities and that that flow was a really, really important term when we were looking to distil this down. It's it is that, that constant. Continuous flow. Across the whole exercise, maximising value delivered to customers and other stakeholders. We made a very, very deliberate inclusion. It was not just customers. Yes, customer value comes first. But we need to one think about the, organise the the stakeholders within the organisation and we need to start being. Truly good corporate citizens, when we start to think about the stakeholders in the wider community, what is the impact of what we are doing on things like climate on things like diversity, inclusion and the the inequalities that are? Built into our system. And they this is about facilitating the alignment of work being done to the overall the organisation overall strategy. And that enables prioritisation of the most important work, and we've brought in deliberately while limiting work in progress. We know one of the. Biggest dysfunctions is is trying to push more work into the system and overburdening, and they continue starting new things all the time and never finishing. And respecting the team's capacity to deliver, knowing what that capacity is and not trying to overburden because we again, we know from all of the real world situations, it just doesn't get to that stage. The IT draws and this is acknowledging that these are not new ideas on lean thinking system thinking, agile development, business agility in general and it's about achieving business goals and rapidly adapting to changing circumstances. So that's how I see agile is defined. Team portfolio manager. And it gives us a really important frame for the principles, but also when we're having these conversations within our organisations, why should we bother with this stuff? Well, here is a pretty succinct we hope why Kelly, I see a a question. What are the companies, 1940s and? 50s What are the 1st? And we draw them all the time, Toyota and the. Toyota production system. I was privileged to talk to Jerry Weinberg when he was still alive and he was talking and this was. In software space about how they were doing things on the Mercury and Apollo space programme and a lot of these ideas were in play there and certainly the way he was. Describing it. And and he literally was there. So there are just two examples that that popped to my mind immediately. So the principles we came up with a set of nine principles which I'll go through now. So there are first of the of the 9 principles is shift to customer centricity and we added the within a larger. Conflict. So thinking about their organisational ecosystem, the the stakeholders beyond just the our, our organisation, but the stakeholders within the organisation too yes, put the customer in the centre. So the underlying driver to of adaptive work is the this fundamental shift that organisations need to make towards this customer centricity. To empathise with and to serve the customer in that larger social and environmental context, everybody in the organisation needs a clear line of sight to the customer. To the organisations vision and to this larger context, so that that that shift what Steve Deming talks about as the Copernican revolution, bring the customer in the centre, but also be responsible in terms of the the wider. Tom takes the community. Communicate the adaptive strategy with transparency. Today's organisations need needs, a strategy that supports their vision, their that that clarity about true north. To effectively respond to changing environments. They need to recognise that the path forward is fundamentally unseeable, and certainly in the last couple of years have have taught us that and nothing else. Making feedback, learning and adaptation core competencies for success. Building those muscles of feedback, learning and adaptation. Adaptive strategy embodies the flexible approach to a changing environment. Effective adaptive strategy is clearly articulated and communicated across the whole organisation. In ways that people understand and can resonate with to enable that local decision making that aligns with and is constrained by. The organisations. Clear golds. Push that decision making to the edge. Strategy is more stable than the approach to achieving it. But the strategy itself remains fluid. And this ability to think include strategy terms, it's hard. The tools one of them that helps us is about aligning around these common goals. And how they might change. This concept of the true north that guides organisational strategy, it's conveyed as a set of business outcomes across different time horizons. These goals are, are expressed and communicated and clear, measurable terms to make that strategy implemented. Every area of the organisation understand where and how to contribute to the overall mosaic that delivers on business outcomes. Mesh of things that come together, feedback loops ensure the needs of the organisation. No, sorry. The goals and and outcomes are depth to meet the evolving needs of the organisation. So the the this feedback is going up and down. And these changes are communicated transparently and clearly. Define, prioritise and deliver business value frequently. Articulate what value means in clear language using agreed upon metrics. To make work prioritisation clear and straightforward at any level where the work is being done. Depending on the scope of control workers delivered in the smallest increments possible as frequently as possible. To enable that rapid feedback, learning and adaptation that we're talking about. The entire organisation stays attuned to this feedback. Listening for the weak signals as well as the louder messages not being overwhelmed by just the the the loud but being attuned to what's happening under the surface feedback mechanism mechanisms built into every aspect of delivery. And are. Used to learn and adapt in those iterative cycles of work. Structure and value strings and this is the shameless self promotion. This is my book, even labelled and I my first book wrote the no projects a culture of continuous value shift to the the value stream approach. So traditional silo based organisation structures. Impede impede the the flower value through handoffs and dependencies. Lean portfolio. Is only truly effective when the people responsible for delivering value had end to end control of all the steps in the value train chain. This requires rethinking borders and structures around identifying and delivering value, rather than specialisation of skills. Cross functional, collaborative, stable teams responsible for achieving business outcomes, and they have the skills and knowledge they need to do so. These teams benefit the organisation by improving coordination, simplifying communication and sharing experiences to solve problems. And that moves us towards people taking accountability. For outcomes over outputs. So these are culture changes that that pervade the organisation. Value streams enable teams to take ownership and accountability for delivering value to their. Customers supporting these organisational outcomes outcomes are achieved when work is done that provide value, provides value to customers and other stakeholders in their value chain. Value teams are tasked with achieving outcomes and empower to figure out the best way to achieve them within realistic. Outcomes of the prime primary focus and outcomes are measured steps towards achieving them. It's not. We don't care about outcomes our outputs, but they are the steps along the way towards the outcomes that really matter. And optimise flow and reduce waste. Stop starting. Start stopping has been out there as a mentor for decades now. Systems thinking is a core competency for effective Lean portfolio management. That big picture of understanding, understanding how the different value streams converge to achieve organisational goals, identifying and minimising dependencies across value streams to enable. Prioritisation and adaptation waste should be reduced or eliminated anywhere it occurs in the system. Adaptivity to changing needs and shifts in context requires the ability to look across the whole portfolio and shift investments if needed. This adaptation can happen at any level from the backlog for a single for a single product. To the selection of value streams needed to achieve the organisation goals. And this. Ability to. Ruthlessly prioritised. Shorten planning and funding cycles. Effective Lean portfolio management requires shorter funding and planning cycles, moving away from the annual planning and long term funding to quarterly or more frequent planning. Keep the bank open. Rather than only allocating funds once a year to allow responsive funding for new opportunities in goals as they emerge. Fund value streams rather than projects and shift from permission based governance. To empower decision decision making with frequent feedback and value driven report. Funding enables innovation. When organisations shift from pure cost based accounting. To be value based and begin measuring those progress towards outcomes. The question of what will it cost and what will we get? Is central. What value will we get? Is central to this shift? So it's not just the cost focus. And the 9th principal. Balance, capacity and demand. We limit the work in progress at every level in the portfolio. The whole organisation has a finite limit to how much can be delivered and how much funding is available. In any given time frame. The same applies to every value stream. Don't overload the system with a top down push of work. Implement. A pull based flow. Where teams pull from a prioritised funnel of work. That ruthless prioritisation. Ensures that the highest value work is done first. Take an economic viewpoint, maximising value while managing cost. Really important. So those are the 9 foundational principles. Of Lean portfolio management. And I CHL has published this one pager and there's a a white paper that lists that that goes into and. Their explores each one of those nine principles. How well do these principles resonate with you?

I think 1 common theme we had the travels that were were in a breakout was that you know. We're both and organisations that aspire to many of those elements that you laid out in the the 9 principles. Uh, but one of the things you come up against terms of shortening planning time horizon. Is annual budgeting right? You know, for large organisations, budgeting is done on an annual basis and and you know you're you're fitting inside. Of that time frame. You know, even if you try to do it in smaller iterations, ultimately. You're you're part. Of the you know, there's an annual budgeting process that you're just not going to.

I want to challenge that you just are not going to escape. You can slowly overtime influence that. And the beginning of the COVID cycle certainly showed us that organisations can be responsive in funding. It was hard. But very, very few organisations stuck to their 2020 financial budgets.

Yeah, that's true.

We know.

And and look, I mean some of the way we can be depend obviously depending what you're doing, but. Like in the organisation I work on, budget effectively is headcount, so you can you can. You can work on the basis of assailants constant headcount even though you've you've yet to land inside of the actual annual. Budget allocation, right, you know. So that's the way we kind of work around that, right? But ultimately at. Some point whether there's an annual budget. You know, this is what we're giving you. What are we getting, you know?

Just to add to that little bit about headcount 1 aspect that in our our conversation was that we still most a lot of managers at the sea level and so still look at cost and obsessed with efficiency and that you know that becomes part and parcel the annual budgeting and what's measured and not what's looked at is. You know what is the cost to delay that we're incurring because of that obsession with efficiency? There's no. How do you account for it? No. One accounts for that.

Change you mentioned it can change and the pandemic did change how budgeting was. I guess the the type of culture we have around budgeting and more incumbent companies, but it's hard to feel as powerful as a pandemic to make a change in. People in charge of the money. Like, yeah, like like you're like. You're. I work with Jerry, for example. I can't tell him to be as powerful as the pandemic and infecting that change. Yeah. How about that? Yeah, yeah.

How do you?

Work on it. Slowly, elephant carpaccio. You know, one slice at a time. Alistair Coburn came up with the concept of Alastair of Elephant Car Park here. And chipping away at it. But we definitely do see that there are organised organisations out there that that. Achieve it and. I'm not sharing my screen yet so. Let me share my screen again. Let's get into it a little bit of making it real. And this is. One example of one organisation where I have seen. It in life. This goes back a number of years, but this these are the the walls of A room. The organisation is New Zealand Post Kiwi bank, so Kiwi Bank is a jury of New Zealand post. Which is a government owned organisation in New Zealand. And Paul Reid was the chief executive there, and he brought in the the idea. It's effectively it's a mboya wall aboya room for the senior executives of the organisation, and it was at the top floor of Kiwi Bank house. The building is was damaged in an earthquake. So it's not there anymore. And this was a. Small conference room that had been converted the the walls had been made-up like this and there were a few important. Characteristics and rules that they had in place around this one and this. There was a meeting in progress. The room was open all the time. And it was open to anybody in the organisation to walk into and have a look as they're radical transparency in in terms of the communication and the the availability, so the information radiators around the place. Their second rule was that if you were having a strategic discussion in this room, you have no more than two topics at a time. They were limiting work and progress. You weren't going to try and tackle everything going on, but what were they the the two important topics and that's that top left hand corner and the the metaphor here of the of the person in the in person's image was the health of the organisation was something that was constantly being looked at and broken into various category. Over there, we had the A portfolio compound wall. Showing in by the various streams of work, what is the current state, what's going on and again the colour coding each one. Each one of these is an initiative within a value stream. And then the. Initiatives were also mapped against the organisation goals, the outcomes that. They will look look to to achieve. And planning, yes, there was some stuff that was sort of two years away and you knew that it was going to change and it was all on poster votes because everything could change. The other very important protocol in this room was the is this picture on the back of the door here. So when a meeting was in progress, they would close the door. And and you can see the table there. It's a tall table with with stools around it, rather than a boardroom table where you sit and stare at each other. Most of the conversations are actually held standing up. A few people didn't want to sit. And part of the protocol was if you noticed. A conversation was avoiding an important topic. Your responsibility as a a participant as a peer in that group was to write it on a post it note, and stick it on the elephant. And they would not leave the room until the elephant topics had been dealt with. While this required levels of trust and transparency and safety in that executive team that took a while to get there. And it cascaded through the organisation. So in my experience, having seen this in action there, this is this is one of the organisations who really did that well. And it was the Paul Reed, the leader, who brought that into play. Let's throw things out here and we'll stay in the main room for this. What are some examples? What are? What have you seen well?

Yeah, we, we. The company that I work in and Kelly. Works in as well. We went big on walls and and and visualising the work and and it was very effective, obviously impacted instantly. When we all went working from home and we we tried to recreate them in various electronic boards and electronic ways. We never quite cracked that view right. The the portfolio view of the wall, it was definitely something we we've tried, right? We're starting. We're actually literally starting to do it in the weeks running up to work from home. We we tried to digitally you know during. This lockdown period, but the executive executive teams and people like the idea of the deck, right? They were always, you know, in terms of what they were looking for, they, they they needed something that they could. Which they felt that they could. They could reference subsequently. Now I'd love to be able to audit how many of them ever actually went back in and read a deck after we had covered it in some form of status meeting. But but. But that what what you showed there was definitely something we were aspiring towards, but we're never really able to fully achieve. We achieved it inside teams, we achieved it inside groupings of teams together, right, like value streams that work together, you know, groups of up to maybe. You know 50-60 people, right? You know, visualising their work at Epic or like almost project level, but never quite to that kind of programme programme view. It was definitely something we were we were trying to work towards, but we didn't fully crack.

I'll share an observation too. This is more cultural like I think German was talking about adoption, but I've been to war long enough to be pre comban and I know when it first arrived with like Kanban shamban, what is this? And then one or two groups did it and. And they basically got good PR, you know, and over time, I think the people who didn't adopt. It felt like. Oops, we better catch up. So it was just kind of interesting to see the adoption because in the beginning there are a lot of people poo pooing it actually. And then now like as German said, it's kind of became normal. Some of these practises. So yeah, you just have to. It it kind of? Felt like tolerating the people poo pooing it. Whenever you're bringing something new, you know I'm hanging in there.

Yeah, these are not overnight changes for organisations.

Years, yeah.

Alright, just being conscious of time. Respectful of your time. The next thing I want to explore, and I'm gonna have a conversation again. What are the the common anti patterns? Because we make mistakes, we bring this we're and we'll we'll we've seen them over and over again. These these common mistakes that organisation make. One example is the adopting of OK arts objectives and key results. But then trying to use them as a performance management framework. Another common one is we wanted to overlay Lean portfolio management on a hierarchical organisation without making the shift in structure to value streams. You're you're bringing in an extra layer of complexity that's gonna make it really difficult. We've we've hit the annual budgeting as a bottleneck over and over again. And if you want some really good references on how to address that one, the folks from the Beyond Budgeting Institute have actually been publishing stuff on this for decades now. And there's really good examples and ways to do it. Another common mistake is the is the cookie. Cutter pattern you know well. They did it like this, so we'll try and adopt it exactly like that. How many of your organisations have had squads and tribes inflicted upon them just because Henrik made a wonderful video not taking to the time to really understand and learn what the value streams are in your business, you need to when starting this you need to take a bit of time to figure out what are. The real value strings. Because otherwise you're going to be reorganising too soon and too frequently. You're not going to give people. Time to settle in the. Constant shifting of of people with no clear understanding of their capacity, their interests and their flow, and again too many reorganisations they're in some large organisations you can almost schedule the next reorg. It will be somewhere in the in six to nine months. There's no rhyme nor reason, it's just we're. Going to do it. One that really cripples things is hidden work. The secret agendas, the portfolio objectives overwritten by local work, and all the stuff that's below the line that's not made visible. Another one is the the lip service, the no transparency around the real blockers and impediments. That we can. Have the the courage and the ability to say, yeah, the reason we're not moving forward is because our finance system is in the way, gaps in the strategic vision or clarity, you know having that, that true north and make. And that clear and visible very frequently and what we call an outcome is really an output. And getting confused between the two and fine, we need to identify the real outcomes. Even for organisations that have got to the point where they've got the right structures, they've got the flow going and so forth. The managing the investment mix between the the run, the business, the grow the business and transform the business elements. Is actually an important balance to get right and you want to keep that balanced. What's what's enough of each of those aspects of the portfolio. And that's going to be evolving as well over time. So those are some of the anti patterns that we've identified and seen. And I will say that we've seen in the when we were putting it together, we definitely could point to examples of each one but wouldn't name the names. What have you seen point?

All of those, all of those things you mentioned. Yeah, it's the. Same particularly hidden work. You know we you. Know like teams don't have time or capacity to do something, and I mean, you try to look at what they're doing. There's. So much of it is. Just random stuff you don't know. Where? Where? Where it's come from.

The in the chat, the different names for the same thing.

Language the one I would throw in there is wishful thinking or magical thinking. The inability to, you know, it had this piles on with the. Dark work or invisible work is, you know, we automatically set. We set a deadline or an objective by Fiat with no regard or with respect to what the actual capabilities of of our capacity of our teams are.

This is a quote from Albert Zuki, one of the founders of IC Agile and current chief executive. The journey to business agility is a grind driven by an identity and requires persistent effort over a long period of time. With a growth mindset and it has no shortcuts. These transitions, these changes take time in organisations and. Patience is something that we as. Change agents in our organisations needs to build. It's a muscle. We have to. To build up. Just to pull things together to wrap things up, just a a couple of points. The the commercial pricing edge. Up the White Paper is there. The learning outcomes are there for the certification and yes, I see agile is a certification body. And these principles are a core foundation of that certification. And there are member organisations training companies around the world who are already offering training that incorporates and and provides people with the certification in Lean portfolio management. And I want to end the with just. I see agiles vision. Because this is inspirational. I've left the organisation but I'm still very firmly a part of the bigger ecosystem and I do find that this vision resonates with me. Is that organisations around the world enable and inspire everyone in them to create a better future for those around them? Their belief is that an organisations journey towards business agility requires shift to an empowered human centric centric culture that sparks creativity and innovation. Learning which is their business. That's their outcome, their their outputs has the power to transform people and by extension, establish the culture that enables people to create a better future for their customers, employees, partners and more. And that's a really powerful North star for an organisation and member organisations of the International Consortium for Agile also align around that vision. The training organisations who teach the certification so. That's it folks. I think we have a couple of minutes left for questions.

Yeah, we do. Anybody would have any question.

Yeah, you said it takes time, which I appreciate. And you know I've witnessed myself. It does take time and seeing things move successfully to becoming more lean as a culture you mentioned. That the 40s. And 50s like what companies have been doing. It since then. Is it like? Yeah, it's more that way, right?

The ones that the the two, the. Yeah, the two that popped to mind for me immediately and when we were looking at this Toyota production system was the mid 50s and that was that was one of the foundations. And they're from I I mentioned a conversation I had with Jerry. Weinberg. Where he. Was talking about how how they were doing. That inside NASA. In the 19 in in the Apollo and and Mercury Space Programme, because there was so much adaptation and learning going on there that they needed this style of working and that was he was talking about work they were doing in 1957. There are two that that pop straight to mine.

Thanks, Shane. OK.

In terms of. All of the different items your, your, your, your 9 principles. They all resonated with me in terms of different things that that we've attempted over our time. Is there any one of them that that you. In the organisations that you've worked with that you've seen that ultimately is the hardest 1 to achieve. Like are there some that come easy and then then there's like this last ninth one the you know the wait, the wait for 10. Minutes. Right, that's. The you know the final possible difficult.

The funding 1.

OK, right.

Moving away is often there's external, particularly public organisations. They have made commitments to that annual budgeting funding thing. It's a hard one to shift.

OK, makes me feel better.

And Shane, just a question, do you have an examples of public organisations that actually change the funding model?

Is it a public organisation? Higher would be one example. Yes, they are listed on the on the Stock Exchange. They would be one that just jumps immediately to mind.

Sorry, just one. Question about that. So when you're doing this change, do you have any experience that you involved the external auditor in order to? To be part of that change as well.

Yeah, with a large financial institution we worked with, I worked with we in order to shift some of the practises. We actually had to engage the external auditors and it was great we brought them in and we looked at this is the process, this is these are the practises, this is the way to that. We are doing this. What do you need from us? And it turned out that by asking that question, we were able to implement a very, very simple change to the process that kept it fully auto compliant all the way through and they were more comfortable because the. Earlier signals of of non compliance and so forth. But involving the external auditors definitely.

OK. Thank you.

And I have a question follow-up question on that. So would you, I presume would you work, would you look for auditors who have already previous experience or would you the same time educating auditors as you?

In that case, we were educating the auditors. They hadn't come across. This before this was 2000. 2011, 2012. OK, so it was it was fairly early the a lot of these ideas were were radical. They're not so radical today. I would say today most auditors have most of the large auditing firms have probably come across organisations that are trying to do this.

And Shane, thank you very much for spending that hour with us. Thank you very much and have a lovely day and evening everybody.