Enquire, the Investor Relations podcast
Enquire, the Investor Relations podcast, is hosted by Equitory founder and CEO, Clara Melia. The purpose of Enquire is to bring together Investor Relations and Capital Markets professionals to share their experiences, best practice and offer listeners insights and ideas in the dynamic world of Investor Relations. Clara and occasional guest hosts from the Equitory team have the pleasure of having fascinating and informative conversations with some of the most experienced and well-respected people in the world of Investor Relations.
Enquire, the Investor Relations podcast
Episode 52: Oskar Yasar - Compensation, Trends and How to Stand Out in Investor Relations
In this Enquire episode, Clara sits down with Oskar Yasar, Managing Partner at Broome Yasar Partnership and author of The Global IR Revolution. With three decades in capital markets and more than 580 senior IR and corporate affairs appointments, Oskar is an influential voice in investor relations talent and leadership.
Oskar shares how IR has transformed from a back-office function into a strategic, board-level career path and why today’s IROs are increasingly moving into financial planning and analysis, strategy, corporate affairs, and CFO and CEO roles. He discusses the perfect storm of talent shifts, why boards now treat IR as mission critical, and how personal branding can make or break a candidate’s chances in a competitive landscape.
From compensation trends and career pathways to interview techniques and the impact of AI on the profession, this conversation offers an inside look into what great IR really looks like and what ambitious professionals should do next.
Whether you’re early in your IR journey, a senior director evaluating your next move, or a business leader shaping your company’s IR strategy, this episode is packed with practical insights and future-facing perspective.
In This Episode:
- Oskar’s career journey from financial communications to global IR headhunter, and how IR has evolved into a strategic, board-level discipline
- What defines a top-tier IRO today, from rising expectations of leadership to a deeper, more competitive talent pool shaped by bankers, analysts and high-EQ communicators
- How the IR function has transformed over the past decade amid activism, globalisation and greater CEO/board involvement in hiring
- Compensation trends post-COVID, including salary inflation, negotiation tips, and why companies often underestimate the cost of securing elite IR talent
- The power of personal branding in senior IR roles and the common pitfalls Oskar uncovers through his interview “trap"
- Emerging career paths for IR professionals, including increasing movement into strategy, financial planning and analysis, corporate affairs, CFO and even CEO positions
- Practical advice for candidates to stand out, from networking and professional development, to using headhunters as strategic partners in long-term career planning
Quotes:
- “What makes great IR isn’t just company messaging. It’s personal brand, presence, and ambition.”
- “We are in the middle of a perfect storm: boards suddenly recognise the importance of IR just as a newer breed of ambitious, sophisticated candidates are entering the profession.
- “If you want to move into IR, you have to do the work: read the book, join the IR Association, go to events, meet people.”
Resources
Connect with Oskar on LinkedIn
Welcome to the podcast, Oscar. And it's wonderful to have you here with me today.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's great to be here with you, Clara, and thanks for having me on this podcast. Also, congratulations on putting together a really good, dynamic programme as well. So congratulations and really exciting to be part of your journey here as well.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. Let's start by understanding your background and your experience. So tell me about your career, why you transitioned from being a financial communication advisor into recruitment.
SPEAKER_01:Two things really. Firstly, I started my career at a company called Citigate George at the time. Citigate were the doyens of financial capital markets communications. And I think we came up with models of privatizations and IPOs. And I worked with some amazing people and also some incredible clients. This is before a lot of your listeners and viewers were still at school, possibly when I worked on the Orange IPO. And at the time I could see the first real shoots of the elevation of the role of investorations and financial communications. Again, the likes of Orange IPO and the acquisition of um PowerGen by Eon and lasting.com. These are really, really great clients that took IR and communication very, very seriously. And I having done that for many years, I decided to, because I could see the first shoots of this growing cadre of very senior, sophisticated individuals and working in the IR space. I thought, I thought, I and also during which time I had a vast network of um of individuals in my family as well. So I decided to make the move into executive search. And um, and this was 20 years ago, and also this year I'm celebrating my 30th anniversary of working in the financial capital markets. I had a lot of big black hair before I uh when I first joined, and uh, and now you can see I I don't have that much. But I think what's really interesting is um that move into investorations and corporate affairs, executive search, I think it was at the perfect time because of the role, has now become much more elevated in recent years as well. And and I really haven't haven't looked back. And uh, since I became a head hunter uh 20 years ago, I've now helped to appoint nearly 600 senior IROs and corporate affairs professionals. And it's a really, really exciting time, I think, to be in the world of IR on corporate affairs.
SPEAKER_00:And can you offer listeners a brief description of how Premius R partnership works and what makes it different to other recruitment agencies?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, the funny thing is when I before I became a head hunter, again, uh as a candidate, you're exposed to a number of the other recruiters and head hunters who supposedly did I our recruitments. And and I thought they were missing a trick because as someone like me who was ambitious and keen to really strive ahead, I felt that there was no one really nurturing and developing my career. So one of the reasons I became a headhunter was to really help others to nurture and develop their careers, and something that we do quite differently than most other of the lifestyle um recruitment businesses that we come up against is that that we are focused on heightening and elevating the role of investor and corporate affairs. And that's one of the reasons we put all these great thought leadership pieces together. We put a number of papers together really to assist our our candidates to really to showcase the transition of the newer breed of investigation and corporate affairs uh cabinets out there. And I think ultimately how we do things differently is because of my background um in uh in IR and financial comms advisory, you're exposed to meeting some of the world's most powerful and um high-profile CEOs and CFOs and chairmen. And um one is used to going to board meetings and telling them what they need to know rather than listening and doing what they want you to do. So I think having that level of gumption and confidence and that real sense of knowing what makes great IR, I think that's that's how we add value, significant value to our clients. And I also have to say that something that I think sets us apart is I think my candidates are as important as my fee-paying um clients. I I spend a lot of time nurturing and really developing um uh a really ambitious number of uh candidates out there. So I think that's how we do things differently. We're not just a recruiter, I think we do things very differently. We also have a great professional development arm as well. So I really work very closely with these um um ambitious uh IR directors and co-fair directors to really elevate their positioning and their and their own personal brand awareness as well.
SPEAKER_00:So let's talk about your book, The Global IR Revolution. And this captures experience and philosophies on leadership and success. Um, it really has been global because I've seen you all over the world um talking to IR professionals globally. Um, so tell me about the book, how writing it shapes your own perspective on the talent landscape.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, as you say, that the book has gone down um incredibly well. And I'm still very humble. It's still baffling that after these speeches in whichever country I recently came back from Johannesburg and uh Bulgaria and Copenhagen and seemed to go off to Zurich for the IR Association conference and this number, and it's quite baffling that there's a line of people, a queue of people waiting to waiting for you to sign your book. And that's still I have to, that's a real pinch me moment. Um, but I think what I've really picked up um over the past couple of days writing this book is it is that there are an amazing number of highly ambitious, incredibly sophisticated IR cabinets out there. And meeting, again, knowing thousands of IROs as I do it really excites me that there has been a significant rise in the talent pool of incredibly ambitious and sophisticated I directors. And I think one thing I've also picked up on is we my only critique of IR directors is we tend to have our heads down focused on making our CEO, CFO, and our company shine, to the detriment of knowing all these massive tectonic shifts that are happening in the marketplace. And one thing this book has definitely done is really brought people together to and to validate their roles and really to make sure that really to help people realize that their role is incredibly important. Another thing I've picked up on is how in recent years, particularly since COVID, boards are now taking IR much, much more seriously. I mean, gone to the days that IR was deemed to be a glorified bad carrier role or even a back office function, it's now front and centre of a company's position. And that and meeting CEOs and CFOs that I do who now take IR much, much more seriously. It happened recently with with a big FTSE 10 search. Um normally the CEOs don't engage in the search process, it's normally done by the CFO and the chair and the HR director. And it's what's fascinating is how many CEOs are now fully engaged in the the search process. So that's been a really exciting thing to see how many boards are taking IR much, much more seriously as well. And I have to my my final point is it's global. I think we we tend to think that individual countries do their own um IR programming. It's a global industry, and so uh meeting people all over the world and um and from different cultures and different backgrounds and different languages, obviously, it's fascinating how we all all doing exactly the same thing. So it's been a really exciting thing to bring the global IR family uh together, and I think that's something that's definitely uh resulted, I think, from for out of the book, and I'm really very excited to have done that.
SPEAKER_00:Just to pick up on, because I couldn't agree more that IR has really changed as a role and its recognition within companies from the top hasn't increased exponentially. And just interested, do you think there's a better recognition of the value that IR brings to the table, or do you think it's better candidates that have moved out of investment banking, for example, from the sell side into investor relations, or perhaps a combination of both that's increased that prominence and recognition of IR?
SPEAKER_01:No, you've definitely answered the question. I think it's we we we've created what I call a perfect storm in that only recently there's been a realization by the executive boards of the importance of investor relations, coupled with the fact that you've got an amazing newer breed of IROs coming to the marketplace. And and I think we at Brew Mazar have been part of attracting a number of research analysts and bankers and buy-siders. I said it because it's all in my data. My again, out of my 580 odd um appointments, a third have come from actual research and banking. My first ever placement, I uh I worked with Thompson Reuters 20 odd years ago, uh, 20 years ago, and um uh and it was a time when research analysts didn't really think IR would be a career um platform for them. And I managed to convince a high-profile uh sell-side analyst to move into the world of IR, and that that IRO is now uh a CEO of a soon-to-be listed um entity. So we've come a long way as a marketplace, but that perfect storm is incredibly exciting in that, and I say this in my book and uh in some of my speeches IR is now an incredibly attractive profession. It's incredibly amazing how many uh resumes and CVs I get from from highly intelligent and sophisticated individuals, particularly from the sell side and the buy side, as well as banking as well. But again, obviously since MiFID 2, the the dynamics and the structures change where a lot of research advisors are now looking to move elsewhere. But uh but that's why I think it's been a perfect storm. Uh, and also I think what's really exciting is the impact that these um newer breeds of candidates are making. And something that's also in in a book that came out of the data interviewing, having interviewed thousands of IROs for this for the book, is at least a third of my IR candidates are now keen to make the move into senior leadership roles. And that that that figure is now double that it was 10 years ago when we asked that same question. So a third of our IR candidates are keen to become the next CFO, in fact, also the CEO as well. So we've come a pro long way.
SPEAKER_00:And what excites you most about your business and what you're doing today?
SPEAKER_01:Gosh, a great quote, great question. I I think three things. It it's it's it excites me that what we're doing is working because when you are doing active search and you have to draw the marketplace to come up with a short list of between eight and ten candidates for the clients, you invariably know what candidates are going to do very, very well. Um, but also something that always fascinates me is the brief from the client ends up being completely different from the actual candidate that we find at the end of the in the process, in that because we know what really good IR looks like, and because we know the ambition of these IR candidates, it's really up to me and my firm to convince the CEO and the CFO to look at these candidates. Even those candidates were completely different from the original brief, and similar to the role I mentioned, the Thompson Reuters role, the the CFO is the CFO never never thought about bringing it, bringing a self-side analyst into the equation. So, and that's what really excites you about us making a significant difference to elevate the IR profession, coupled the fact of because we're so high profile and we're well known in the financial capital markets globally, is the number of people that come to us to um to uh get career advice and who want to be nurtured and who want to be developed, and they look at our website and they see all the great thought leadership reports and papers which we publish really to help them to navigate uh their their careers. And that that's the other thing that really makes it fun. A couple of the fact that we're now global. So I think um again, it's a pinch-me moment when I first became an IR head science. I wanted to be global, I didn't want to just be UK focused. We've placed countless people into European uh territories. We're now very big in America, uh, we're big globally. Um, and because of knowing what makes good IR, we're also very good at actually um helping IR associations as well to again to elevate their positioning within their uh within their membership base as well. So again, it's an exciting time to be in IR, and I'm very, very excited to continue to continue to be part of that uh elevation.
SPEAKER_00:So let's pick up on some of the themes you've touched on already, uh, specifically about how the role of IR has evolved during your career. And what would you say has been the biggest change in IR over the last 10 years?
SPEAKER_01:I think two really big things actually. I think the the massive shift has been the demands uh that are now put on um IR directors. I think um there has been a significant rise in uh the level of questioning from analysts and from investors. The the role of IR has shifted because of the the the demands on the time. I think you and I will uh remember when IR was just basically a financial communications role, and that you just basically drafted a press release, you sent the press release out, and then you just waited for waiting for the results uh to come through. I uh it has shifted in that the markets have changed how they um view rest relations that comes through the Excel um research, which uh which which fascinates me in that the number of research analysts and investors now how they view IR is has completely shifted. Again, coupled with the fact that I answered this before in terms of how CEOs are now fully engaged in the IR process. That's been fascinating. And the reason it's been fascinating is I I I predicted this several years ago when I worked at City Gage Russian, in that uh I now realize that the careers of CEOs is now dependent upon how they communicate to their financial stakeholders. So gone are the days that um CEOs and CFOs were just wheeled in and wheeled out every three to six months to do their earnings uh reports. It's now fundamentally shifted in that CEOs now again realize that their careers are dependent on how they communicate, which is why they need a robust, sophisticated, punchier investigations direct. So that's been a fascinating development as well. So I think it and that's likely uh to continue because of the elevation of the role of IR externally and internally, a lot of organizations now understand the importance of investorations, but there are still a lot of organizations that do not understand the power and the potential of investorations. And invariably, actually, I think um, and it's going to be in our press release, which we'll be uh sharing very, very soon, is that the number of companies, listed companies has gone down dramatically in the space of 20 years, particularly in America. I think the number of listed companies has gone down by 43% and it's gone down by half in the UK. And I think one of the reasons for that is the lack of a robust and punching sophisticated investigation director that can go on the attack when an activist shareholder is attacking them. So that's been a fascinating realisation in recent years as well.
SPEAKER_00:And actually, just picking up on that point around, because I mean in the UK we're seeing a trend of significantly more delistings than listings. And maybe just ask in a bit more detail how does that impact the IR job market? Because presumably there are candidates whose company is being taken private. And are we in a situation where there's a surplus of candidates and not enough roles? And just interested in what you're you're seeing around the sort of IR market right now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, there is definitely a much wider, much deeper pool of credible candidates. And for every one of my uh short lists and happens happened recently with BAE systems and and Halion and Trustpilot and Smith and Nephew and many, many others, is I I there is an abundance of incredibly sophisticated and incredible candidates out there. Um, but that that that counterpool is is is becoming much, much deeper in recent years because, as you mentioned, the number of companies being taken over. However, the flip side is the number of other organizations that necessarily wouldn't have had an IR director and now bringing in IR directors. Um, so I think it, yes, the number of listed companies have gone down dramatically, but the number of companies that now have dedicated significant IR resources also increased significantly as well. But that comes back to points in terms of another area that I'm passionate about. You asked me a question about what really excites me about my role is is helping our candidates. And something that really fascinates me about my um senior IR candidates is not all of them, a lot of them absolutely get this, but a number of my IR candidates, because they have their heads down focused on making their companies shine, as I as I said, is that they lack awareness of their own personal brand. And most of my um candidates, nearly all the candidates that have got through to the final stages, are fully cognizant and aware of their own personal brand. What is it about me that's basically going to be bought? We're all commodities at the end of the day. And if you realize that that the the the career landscape is incredibly competitive, again, for everyone on my candidates, um short lists, I can put 12 incredible cabinets. So what do you need to do as a candidate to stand out amongst the amongst a busy crowd, a very competitive crowd of other candidates? So and that's something that's I'm also helping with a lot of my candidates as well. So I think I think we we mustn't panic too much about the number of companies being taken over. I think what what excites me, and I'm hoping, I've been praying for the past 10 years, uh, that the IPO marketplace picks up. I think we we're seeing the first shoots of the IPO marketplace are picking up, and particularly across uh Europe and the UK and America. So let's hope that that that continues as well.
SPEAKER_00:So you and I both, I think, about the IPO market. And in terms of some of the key trends and how companies are approaching IR resources, again, just maybe to pick up on something you said earlier. I've seen a trend, for example, when I see job adverts on LinkedIn, that they specify they want someone who's got sell-side experience. Um, is that a particular trend you're seeing? And then you mentioned often you'll put forward candidates who maybe don't match the brief but actually end up being far better suited to the role than the job spec sort of was initially seeking. So just really interested in in your thoughts around these things.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, it's a great question. I think what's really interesting is um um firstly, there are a number of IR directors that have come from Ectresearch. I think it's in my data. I think that there are 28% of my UK candidates, particularly, have come from ECT research or the buy side. So if a CEO says I want someone with someone with um sell-side ECT research experiments, yes, there are, but there are also a few of them who've done in-house investigations um who have in-house IR experiments as well. I think what's really interesting is that um the the dynamics have shifted in that what really what's really interesting is how the role of IR is viewed differently in every organization. There's no one model that fits everything. It really fascinates me how the role of IR is is is viewed completely differently in a lot of organizations. And that's reflected, I think, in the compensation um uh salaries, compensation uh again, it's all in data. Uh my my con my average salary has gone up by 30% since COVID, which is a lot of money. And I think also my average IR compensation, base base salary is now about 380,000 US dollars. That's that's completely shifted in recent years. But but the reason I say that is it happened recently with two big FTSE10 um appointments. I can't give the name the name of the organization because it means I'm going to share the candidates uh compensation with you. But the similar market capitalization, the one CFO offered the candidate£360,000 base salary. The similar size market capitalization organization offered the candidate£195,000. And so again, what there's again, there's no such thing as the average I salary, but again, showcases that similar market capitalization, how the salary compensation varies dramatically as well. So I think I think coming back to my point that I mentioned, having um having had a lot of experience, and I I'm now over the hill in terms of I just really say what I really genuinely think. I don't say things that that's going to please please people. It must be an age thing, I think, Clara, but uh but having the gumption the confidence is tell to say to a CEO, you are you are wrong on this occasion, you're wrong because this is the kind of pool that we can present to to you. And again, it happened recently with a with a pre FTSE5 organization that um that we found someone from the the buy side, even though the the client was very, very keen on having someone with in-house IR experience. So again, uh to conclude, every company views IR differently, and um and it will continue to do that way. But I get again the likes of me who's able to showcase what good IR looks like, I think that that's that's our our USP here, I think.
SPEAKER_00:And you you touched on compensation and a very broad range in compensation, base compensation for IR professionals, just around the subject of compensation. What should I professionals negotiate or be thinking about in terms of their broader package, uh, particularly when it comes to alignment with performance when it comes to L tips, for example?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, invariably, um nearly 95% of my offers um are um the LTIPs are part, options are part of the the conversation. Again, uh it's not just um base, but also bonuses have increased significantly in recent years. My average bonus is now uh 45 to 50 percent of base salaries, and that's reflected also in the similar number, uh the similar percentage of LTIPs as well, um, plus a car allowance. Um, and it happened recently where the client was stuck on offering 20% bonus. And I said, you're not going to be able to convince this candidate to join if you're offering 20% because the average bonus element is 40, 45%. So, again, there's been a lot of um negotiation, a lot of us uh uh uh advising the the HR director about um the level of compensation that's now required to attract very good candidates. And I have to say also with compensation, it's an important role. Why are we why are we horse trading over 30,000, 40,000 pounds? This rot this this is such a critical high for you guys that you should be offering 40, 50, 60 percent in bonuses. It's an absolute uh no-brainer. But I think coming back to the facts of uh coming back to the point about what we advise our our our our our accountists is is basically work with good headhunters, um, work with good hunts, head hunters that know the value of investor relations uh via compensation. So I think uh it's a question that I love answering because obviously it's it's my bread and butter. I mean, I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't get any, get it, but get it, get a fee of my of my clients. But I think what's really exciting is salaries have definitely increased and salaries will continue to increase, even though, as you as you mentioned earlier, the number of candidates um, the number of um companies are diminishing and the candid pool is is is widening. But again, salaries are still continuing to increase significantly.
SPEAKER_00:What are your tips to candidates preparing for an interview at senior level?
SPEAKER_01:Um uh speak to speak to ossias R. I think uh I think it because I directors are so so busy, and again, corporate directors are so busy with their day jobs, they tend not to focus on their own um brand awareness, their own messaging. I mean, you you it happens, um, it happens all the time. In fact, my my my next book, once we've got this uh the Global Isle Revolution out of the way, and once we've got the updated edition, we're doing an updated edition in 2026. The other book is called uh The The Power of Personal Branding, Stand Out or Stand Aside. In that you you I always play a trick with my candidates, I'm sure the candidates realize this, and I admit, I admit that I play a game with them where I ask them to tell me about their company, their key messaging from the company and their relationship with the markets. They could talk for hours about the company messaging, about the relationship with the CEO, and then I let them talk for five or ten minutes. Then I ask them, right, tell me about your brand key messaging. There's always a pause and there's always a splutter, and there's always a bit of hubris and denial that they've never asked that question of themselves before. What am I bringing to the table over and above the rest of the can that uh can it pool? And as soon as they they realize that that's that's a question that it should have asked themselves, and they go away, then they speak to our professional development art, they read our paper. There's a great paper on our website, um broomzar.com forward slash insights about the power of personal branding, which is uh again, I'm not just saying this, it this comes up in lots of conversations. It has helped candidates to redefine their own messaging, which is just incredibly exciting. That we have helped candidates to to push ahead with their careers. I think also what candidates have to realise is but I think that this isn't the critique more of an assessment in that that a lot of my senior candidates have a lot of EQ. They need to have a high level of EQ in terms of understanding their role vis-a-vis other people in that room. But I think those candidates show a level of uh commercial awareness, uh heightened level of questioning, but also uh a high level of awareness of their own brand awareness. So again, it's not just what you uh say and how you say it, it's how you look. And it's it I know it's awfully rude of me to say, but it still fascinates me how many people I interview, particularly over VC, who wear t-shirts to these interviews. If you're wearing a t-shirt to one of my interviews, how the hell am I going to be able to sell you into a client that's looking for a sophisticated, ambitious, punchy IRO? So there's a certain certain little tweaks that cabinets need to deploy to really to be aware of their own personal brand awareness. And uh and it happens that they come to my offices here in here in in London, uh, and uh you can always tell those individuals that really know what they're bringing to the table because they they've they have a they have a lot of confidence in articulating that as well. So that would that would be a that would be my my biggest trick, being fully engaged and cognizant of your own personal brand awareness.
SPEAKER_00:I think that's brilliant advice. And actually, IR professionals are generally articulate, and there's a skill that you acquire in IR where you answer the same questions from every investor in exactly the same way. And I think there's merit in practicing your biography and describing your personal background, and it's a skill I acquired when I move from in-house IR into consulting because suddenly I'm pitching myself and my credentials to sell into companies, and it does take a period of time to sort of be able to be as fluent in explaining your own background as you are in explaining your company's change in revenue for the quarter. So I think I think that's a really brilliant advice.
SPEAKER_01:And I've instructed club, I always um it is quite uncomfortable talking about yourself. Um and I always advise my my candidates to when you're looking at yourself in the mirror, as invariably we always do after we wake up, you you have to really practice at least five or six of your messaging on a daily basis. It's the most uncomfortable thing to think about or do or or talk about, but um, but I know that those candidates that are getting the bigger roles, the bigger compensation, the bigger visibility, the heightened high visibility at the board level are those that not only are great communicators and not only are great at coming up with a great IR program, but also great at positioning their own personal brand awareness. And you see it, you just you feel it, you see it. And then when I meet these candidates, I get incredibly excited about these candidates. And then it's easier for me to sell these candidates into my clients over and above someone who's wearing a t-shirt for an interview with me. Uh simple equations, and I think uh IRAs need to be be more cognizant of that simple equation.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm horrified by the t shirt comment. But is there anything else that candidates should avoid doing? Anything, do you have any stories from sort of the experiences you've had with candidates maybe over the years?
SPEAKER_01:I mean it's uh I I I tend not to I mean you again the simple thing with a t-shirt and never never works for me. But I think what really interests me also is how I mean not not I mean again, it's only only a small number of times is how unprepared candidates are for meetings with headhunters. I think there's also been a lack of education from our into from the from the head hunting industry about um our role in the process. And again, I'm not arrogant, I'm not obnoxious, I'm hoping I'm not obnoxious in any way, but we are in fact we're the gatekeepers for some of the most exciting, high-powered, um, highly valued roles out there. And my role is to be the gatekeeper for those searches. And those candidates that are prepared in advance of meetings with me are those that are going to do much better in the in the process. I think also what's interesting is um uh what what candidates don't do, I think, is they don't know many other IROs. They don't know who their competitors are basically. Um and again, this is all in the data. It's it's fascinating how the fact that every single R director or IR manager should be a member of the IR association in whichever country, whichever territory that you're in, you have to believe that you're part of that industry. But if you don't go to events, if you don't go to seminars or conferences or talk at these events, you're not actually seeing who your competitors are. Um, so you're basically going into these interviews completely blind. So I think it's uh it's a three-dimensional thing, being fully aware of your own personal brand awareness, understanding the company culture and what the clients like to ask you, but as well as actually knowing who the competitors are as well. And ask me, um, and when you're going through these interviews, who the the the back but the background of some of the competitors on that short list. I'm very happy to, I won't give too much away, but I'm very happy to give it sort of generic um feedback on that as well. So um, but I think it's it's it's it's really interesting. I think that we don't really we we have to congratulate ourselves as an industry in terms of how far we have come, but we we're still we still have a long way to go. And I think the more that we know and meet other people and really learn from other people, one of the reasons we put these great events together, in fact, we had, of course, we had our our book launch at Goldman Sachs uh a few months ago, which you uh obviously came to, and very uh thrilled that you were there as well. And uh, we had 320 people in the room, and and admittedly, a lot of those people that were in the room had said they'd never been to an IR conference or they've never really been to an IR event before. Why are you not going to these IR events, not just to learn about best practice IR, but also to learn from others and really to see your competitors are basically?
SPEAKER_00:Great advice again, in terms of just broader sort of IR skills. And I think that is an overlooked point. I would never have thought to ask who else was in that sort of process, whereas as a consultant, I always ask who else is pitching in the process. So I think that's a really, really great tip there.
SPEAKER_01:As you're talking, I I think what's what's also fascinating is how few senior R directors focus on professional developments. Yes, personal brand is something that we can all work on, but uh professional development is actually it's it's it's a process that a lot of very senior R directors don't go through. Um CEOs have professional development, they have lots of coaching. I don't mean just coaching, but professional development advice. CFOs and HR directors, board level directors have a lot of professional development um uh advice and and and uh uh and education. But how few IR directors bring in my professional development arm or know that there's a professional development organization that can really elevate their career. So that would be my big, big um advice to to really go out and and also invariably your your company will likely have a budget for professional development. So if you don't ask, you're never going to get, and but the the feedback is oh, I'm too busy to do any professional development, I'm too busy to do these courses. You have to make time for yourself, even if it's three to four or five percent of your of your of your daily daily work.
SPEAKER_00:And how should on that subject, how should I candidates, and also on the flip side, companies and boards think about succession for the IR profession? Where do you see candidates ending up in their careers? And I know you touched on this in the book.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, one thing really again, when I started 20 years ago, I could see that there was a heightened elevation of um of an understanding of the power of IR. Again, I mentioned um working on the Orange IPO and many, many other IPOs and privatizations and uh and uh and MA deals. And it it seeing this merging talent of incredibly ambitious and sophisticated IROs, I uh inherently knew that there was only one direction for them to go in. And I knew that my again might mention the Thomson Reuters, my first ever placement uh appointment, and that that account then became a CFO of part of the organization, Thomson Reuters. And there is there is now a route, a path that a lot of ROs can take to become either the next director of FPNA or the next head of strategy or the next head of development, or even invariably the next CFO, and in some cases, even the CEO as well. But I think what's what's fascinating is how few IR candidates know that there's that path for them. So, one of the reasons we put we wrote this book and also published a study which I did I would encourage a lot of our ambition directors to read, which was from IR to business leadership, that showcased how many candidates were making the move into senior business leadership roles. And uh, that that that study went down very well. In fact, we're going to publish another updated um study on that next year. Um, so there was definitely that there is definitely a path, but if you don't ask your HR director or your CFO about actually engaging on that path, about actually knowing that you can become um again director of an FPNA or director of strategy or even deputy CFO, then if you don't ask this question, then no one's really going to think that you've got the ability to do that. So I think it's it's a two-way thing. There should be an internal succession planning process, but also you should have, as an IR director, you should have the gumption and confidence to be able to articulate that that that that that um that career path. But one thing also, it's um I touched on the career path to very ambitious and sophisticated IRAs is FPNA or or strategy or development. A lot of my directors don't want to go down that path. That's too sometimes can be quite esoteric and quite parochial. But a third of my IR candidates, this is really fascinating, a third of my IR candidates who don't want to be the next director of FPNA or strategy, they're taking on corporate affairs as a mantle. So historically, I'm sure you you will have seen this in many organizations. Um, a few years ago, IR used to be headed up by the head of PR, head of communications. Um, that has obviously completely switched on its head, in that a number of highly um numerate and highly sophisticated I directors are now taking on the role of corporate affairs. And I predicted this 10 years ago, and it's really exciting, it's happening more and more. Um, as a case in point, my recent, not so recent uh appointment, um, Matt Johnson who I placed into point, help to point into Vodafone as their new director of IR. He came out of, we talk about a whitbread. Within a couple of years, he then became the chief of staff to the CFO. He then, obviously, the CFO then became the CEO. He now heads up corporate affairs for one of the world's biggest telecommunications organizations. So if Matt Johnson can become the director of corporate affairs overseeing IR, then a lot of candidates can do that. But he got that role because he asked the right questions. And again, it's happened recently um with the director of IR and a trust pilot. She's now the director of IR and Corporate Affairs and Trust Pilot. Again, one of my um, I was gonna say my oldest person, but she she'd hate me for saying this. She'd probably slapped me for saying this. But uh, we helped to appoint Nadia Rita Jameson into her role at Experian many years ago. Nadia now is a board director overseeing corporate affairs for one of the world's biggest organizations and probably the world's biggest organization in the sector. So that's happening more and more. So that's another part of that succession planning about which direction cabinets can take. And I'd encourage all cabinets to look at our insights page because there's a lot of um career-defining papers on thought leadership um studies on there as well. So, yeah, so I think again, uh my final point is um, and I mentioned this in my book, and I mentioned this, in fact, I mentioned this at the end of one of my speeches that I've I've given again, global speeches all over the world, and um that um IR careers are now only dependent on someone's ambition. So, again, similar to the the IR industry, our future is now dependent on our own ambition. So um IR careers are now only dependent upon individual ambition. So if you have a level of level of ambition and sophistication, then the world is your oyster. So I think it's an exciting time to be in IR because of that.
SPEAKER_00:Some great insights there, and of course, we've had Matt from Vodafone on the podcast as well. It's a fascinating.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, he's great, isn't he? Brilliant, yeah. I'm just gonna add in a bit of the book as well. It's also I think he's got a he's got several quotes in the book as well. So I definitely encourage people to read the book as well.
SPEAKER_00:I'm just gonna add in a slight bit of caution. I I heard a Nile candidate was going into every interview for a Nile role saying they wanted to be a CFO. So I think there is some sort of EQ here where obviously it's great to have that ambition and once you're embedded in the company and the role to express and articulate that ambition, but obviously for candidates to be mindful in an interview process that you are interviewing for the investor relations role. So not to show too much ambition to change out of that role too quickly.
SPEAKER_01:I agree, I absolutely agree with Clara, but I think you have to, I mean, I'm I'm very good at asking my before the interviews, I always ask my CFOs and CEOs, if this candidate wanted your role, CFO's role next three years, how would you respond to that? And depending on how they respond, I then go back to candidate and say to candidate, don't mention you want to be the CFO. But invariably, if uh I do say, yeah, mention that you want to be the CFO, not immediately, but within the next three, four years, that that tends to go down very, very well as well. So again, use and abuse uh me and your head hunter because head hunters again are that gatekeeper, that conduit between the role and the organization.
SPEAKER_00:And just in terms of sort of broader career advice, do you help coach candidates? So, for example, of the merits of being a number two role in a very large cap, large investor relations team versus maybe being the head of in a smaller listed company. Do you kind of help candidates find the right next step for them, which may be a different level of seniority, but within a bigger context, uh, for example?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's a great question, Claude. I think again, uh because I've been a candidate and I know how it feels being a candidate and not having really anyone to nurture and develop your career, I think I'm I'm I'm passionate about my candidates, as I said at the outset. Um, but because every IR role is different and all every organization's view of the I role is different, it's up to me to convince a candidate who is who can be a number one in a say in a FTSE 250 or a mid-cap DAX or mid-cap um Fortune 500 um that maybe going in as a number two within a big organization might in fact elevate your career going forward. And uh invariably actually there aren't really many IL candidates with with big egos. Um, but I I always advise candidates to look ahead. Is this role going to elevate your your brand? Is it going to give you a bigger salary? Is it going to give you more visibility? Invariably, if the answer is yes, then I then convince these uh astute candidates to go for number two roles. And then coming back to the point I mentioned um a few minutes ago about as an example, um Matt Johnson or Anadi Ridley Jameson. Now, these people have become corporate affairs directors, and therefore there is now a gaping hole for a bigger person reporting to these individuals. So that is definitely happening as well. So again, it happened recently with um um with a with a in fact actually happened, yeah, it happened with a big organization that we found the corporate affairs director overseeing IR, but that we've realized also that there's a gaping hole to fill this IR role. And uh, we took a head of IR from a footstep into this role, and then I think the rest is history. So I think, yeah, it is it it is yeah, it is up to the head center to try to convince candidates about whether this role is going to um is going to basically strengthen their visibility and strengthen their their branding uh going forward.
SPEAKER_00:And we always talk about measuring success and the challenges around demonstrating value in investor relations. Do you have any views on what IR professionals should be thinking about when they're communicating with their board to really sort of demonstrate the the value that they're bringing to the company?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I think um I think firstly, as an IR candidate needs to be aware of the understanding of the role at the board level. If there is a lack of awareness of the role of IR at that board level, and IROs tend to know all the uh board directors and the NEDs, I think it's up to that IR individual to go around the table, not not at the same time, but maybe take them out for coffees and lunches, about um enabling them to understand the power and the potential of investorations. Because ultimately CFOs, CEOs, board directors, they've got their day jobs. IR is probably only, in some cases, only five or ten percent of your role. So I think as an IR individual, it's up to you to convince the board about the importance of investorations, and that's happening across the board and rural organizations. I think secondly, you can go through measurements about um uh about whether your share price has increased because of the role that you have uh done within the world of IR. And that that's an equal simple equation. But I don't encourage my candidates to focus on that because when the share price goes down, then they're the first person to be criticized and to be attacked at the board level as well. So I think it it it's it's much more than that as well. But I think also in today's markets, there is a heightened level of activism out there as well. So I think as as IR directors, we have to stop being reactive and being more proactive by actually going out there much, much more rather than being reactive to certain situations. I think that's also a key level of measurement as well. But I think also what's what's another level of measurement for me is um how many more responsibilities this IR director is given. That to me is a surefire um positive sign. If an IR director is given sustainability or ESG, or in some cases, even you have R directors now overseeing strategy or even um, in some cases, even corporate corporate affairs. That is another surefire sign to heighten the positioning of investor relations internally as well. So I think measurement, you can measure all sorts of different things, but I think it's about doing your internal audit and making sure that the board actually realised the importance and the potential of what you do for a job, basically. It's as simple as that.
SPEAKER_00:And you shared a lot of fascinating insights, and as we we're unfortunately running out of time.
SPEAKER_01:Oh no. Talk for hours, I'm sure you know Clara.
SPEAKER_00:So as we start to wrap up the conversation, just to summarize perhaps some of the points you've already made, what's the best advice you can give someone who's looking to move into investor relations?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, firstly, firstly, read the book. Um again, uh yes, I the book's best seller on Amazon, which I'm incredibly um thrilled about on both sides of the Atlantic. And the book is actually a great tool, the mechanism, even for people who work in IR. A lot of IR candidates. I mean, I get uh scores of emails on a weekly basis from our candidates from all over the world saying what a what a great overview of the role of IR book is. So I'd encourage um candidates coming to IR too to read the book. Also, it still fascinates me how few people who want to make a move into investigations know about the IR associations. The IR Association is there as our um as our support mechanism, in effect. They're basically a banging the drum for investigation officers. So, therefore, if you want to, if you ultimately want to make a move into the heady world of investigations, you now need to be part of the world viral. You need to now become a member of the IR Society. You should become, you should go to their seminars and go to their best practice events and go to their conferences and potentially go to their dinners. So the more that you ingratiate yourself within the world of investigations, the easier it is for you to make the transition across into the world of IR. And again, I mentioned this um t-shirt analogy. I think uh Ken, I'm interviewed recently, um, had was interviewed, uh was wearing a t-shirt, um, desperately wanting to make a move into the world of IR, hadn't read the book, had didn't know anything about the IR society. And I and I said to him, at what stage do you think I'm gonna be able to help you make transition into world of investment? So you have to do a lot of your own research and ultimately meet with IR directors. Um, IR directors aren't going to say no to a coffee, um, particularly if you're highly ambitious and sophisticated wanting to make a move into the world of IR. I think meet meet with meet and for coffees, again, do as much as you possibly can with the IR associations. Those associations are there for for the R community. And also, again, simply read the book. That's always uh always a always a helpful helpful helpful thing you can do.
SPEAKER_00:And final question, what excites you the most about the future of investor relations?
SPEAKER_01:Oh gosh, brilliant question, Clara. I've been around, I've been around for a long time. Again, I mentioned at the outset, it's my 30th anniversary working in the city, and we have noticed a significant transformation, not of not just of the world of IR, but also the candid port as well. And that's happened in the space of 20 or 30 years. I'm equally confident and excited about the future of IR because the trajectory is there in our favour. Again, we mentioned a few minutes ago about how boards are taking reputation and IR much, much more seriously. We mentioned how CEOs, CFOs now realize that their careers are dependent on how they communicate with their financial capital market stakeholders. So I think the trajectory is there. I think also with the emergence of AI technology, that is going to be the most incredible um addition to an IR armoury because ultimately, again, CEOs, CFOs don't really, they only spend 20% of their time uh on the IR program. But if if AI is going to significantly transform how companies operate and how companies communicate to the marketplace, this is a fantastic opportunity for the investor relations uh officer. So I think I'm I'm excited because I've been excited. Um, again, my some of my friends think, well, how can you be so excited about investor relations? I mean, come on, it's an amazing profession, it's an incredibly exciting industry. What role is there that has significant exposure to the board level plus the exposure to the external marketplace? There's no other role like it, particularly also for those highly ambitious and sophisticated art directors that can become, in effect, the next director of corporate affairs or even the CFO, and in some cases, even the CEO. So I'm I'm incredibly excited by the by the future of Investor Relations. I won't be around for too long, but uh I think whoever's going to take over the mantle is going to be uh on a on a winning wicket, as they say, in here in here in the UK.
SPEAKER_00:Well, Oscar, thank you so much. Thank you for sharing your insights. Uh, your passion for the career of investor relations couldn't come across more strongly. So I really enjoyed having you on the podcast with me today.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you so much. Thank you for having me, and good luck with the rest of your podcast. Thank you.