Episode 55: Ross Hawley - Building Credibility When It Matters: Crisis, CMDs and the Craft of IR

In this episode of Enquire, Ross Hawley reflects on a 34-year career spanning banking, hedge funds, sustainability and senior IR roles across multiple FTSE companies. Now leading IR at Zigup plc, Ross discusses how credibility is built through judgment, clarity and a deep understanding of the business. He shares practical insights on crisis communication, capital markets days, narrative development, and why the IRO must balance facilitation with authoritative communication. The conversation also explores how AI is reshaping investor behaviour, what companies must do to make disclosures machine-readable, and why authenticity and long-term thinking remain central to effective IR.

What you'll learn in this episode:

• How a diverse career across banking, hedge funds and sustainability shaped Ross’s approach to IR
• What the “dual role” of the IRO really means in practice
• Why authenticity and structure define successful capital markets events
• How to communicate effectively in times of crisis
• What it takes to explain a complex business model clearly and consistently
• Practical tools for simplifying disclosure and enhancing accessibility
• How the buy side is adopting AI and what that means for corporate communication
• Why companies should avoid drafting with AI but embrace it for thinking and workflow
• Lessons from Zigup’s IR programme, rebrand and website transformation
• Advice for aspiring IR professionals and those moving from the sell side

Quotes:

• “When your CEO or CFO is in the room, you’re the quiet facilitator. When they leave, you are the representative of the company.” 
• “Answer the phone. How you sound really matters.” 
• “AI will help you think, but it shouldn’t write your CEO statement.” 

Resources:

Connect with Ross on LinkedIn

Transcript

The Dual Role Of The IRO

Ross Hawley 0:00

The impact of AI on the buy side and increasingly on the sell side is a fundamental shift, which I think has happened in the last 12 to 18 months. Because if you think about what the good parts of AI, the machine learning, the able to assimilate huge amounts of information to be able to search in those kind of ways. If your role is to try and cope with understanding a lot of industries, an awful lot of companies, track what's going on, et cetera, then AI is a massively helpful tool for you. And the more sophisticated ones are absolutely using it to help prepare for conferences.

Clara Melia 0:39

Welcome to Enquire, the Investor Relations podcast. In this podcast, we speak with senior IR professionals on their career experience, to share knowledge and learnings around IR strategies. We also speak with portfolio managers and sell-side analysts to explore their view of investor relations and what constitutes best practice. In today's interview, I'm delighted to be joined by Ross Hawley, Head of Investor relations at Zigup PLC, a FTSE 250 integrated mobility solutions business. Ross is an experienced IR professional with both an in-house and advisory background. He has over 25 years of in-house corporate experience, including at FTSE 100 businesses such as Rolls Royce, where he was an assistant director of IR, and at Mann Group PLC, where he was involved in a wide range of capital raisings and corporate transactions for over a decade. Ross has

Meet Ross Hawley And Career Arc

Clara Melia 1:34

more recently established and led the IR function for a number of smaller companies. He was sustainability manager for Virgin Atlantic before moving to his current role at Zig Up, during which he's won a number of awards for their IR websites. Ross has been heavily involved with the UK's IR Society, which we'll come on to discuss later in the podcast, alongside his work both professionally and for the IR Society around AI in IR. Welcome to the podcast, Ross, and thank you very much for joining me today.

Ross Hawley 2:03

Thank you, Clara. Very pleased to be here.

Clara Melia 2:05

Let's start by understanding your background and experience and talk about your current roles both at Zig Up and the Investor Relations Society in the UK. So you've had a fascinating and varied 34-year career studying different sectors and stages of corporate maturity. Tell us a bit about the pivotal roles that have shaped your approach to investor relations and corporate communications.

Ross Hawley 2:27

I think varied is a kind description. I think I've certainly had to sort of change my spots a couple of times. But how I think of probably the career is sort of a decade in investment banking, a decade of in-house corporate finance. And that was during an amazing period of growth at Largest Hedge Fund Man Group. And then really the last 15 years, I've been working both in investor relations but also in sustainability. So I suppose when I think about that, the banking taught me an awful lot about how the city worked, how to do MA deals and raise money. And also sort of sitting in the mindset of an advisor, obviously at a fairly junior level. And that was actually really

Banking To In‑House: Lessons Learned

Ross Hawley 3:02

very helpful. In truth, I don't miss it. And I did move in-house actually at about age 28. So I was quite keen to go into company at that time. And I was very lucky because Mann Group, which at the time was a relatively small FTSE 250, lots of agricultural commodities broking, uh had also involved in futures broking in a very small hedge fund. But while I was there, it was going through an absolute boom time in hedge funds and was kind of the largest hedge fund manager at the time. So still the city, but kind of I also had aspects like managing a 50% stake in a peanut processing plant in northern Greece. So really getting much more stuck into what life is like inside a company. And I think that role was probably pivotable for me becoming an IRO because I enjoyed that in-house side. And also it meant getting more used to really living with the outcome of the judgment calls one makes. And being close to the C-suite and board certainly gave me experience of what were the requirements of being a trusted advisor. So I think that's really what I took out of those kind of the different areas. And Mangroib absolutely was the 10 years was a great period to be there.

Clara Melia 4:08

And what would you say has changed most in the role of IR during your tenure in the profession?

Ross Hawley 4:13

Yeah, I've heard a number of your previous podcast guests talk about this. And in some ways, I don't have an awful lot to add. I mean, clearly it's become more professional. It's certainly a more attractive option for many of the equity analysts now, probably much early in their career than there might have been before. I'm sure we're going to talk about AI later on, but actually I don't think the core requirements of being able

Sustainability Mindset In IR

Ross Hawley 4:33

to communicate, to build relationships, to be able to write well, I don't think any of those have changed. I think in truth, there's probably more of a difference at the upper end of the FTSE 100 in terms of that role than where I probably have spent more of my time, which is in the FTSE 250.

Clara Melia 4:49

And you've also spent time as a dedicated sustainability professional at Virgin Atlantic. So how has that influenced your thinking as an IR professional?

Ross Hawley 4:58

I think certainly, if I was thinking about again that kind of difference between being an advisor or in-house, I think that's certainly been one element. And then when I think about that kind of sustainability side, it's impacted me quite considerably, both personally and professionally. And in some ways, I've actively looked for roles which incorporate sustainability as a part of the investment case. I think quite a lot of the elements in sustainability, it's about being focused on the longer term. And that's actually essential for any IRO's narrative for a company, even if actually the environmental impact, which a lot of people kind of think is the core area of that, is limited. So I do think, and I have always thought a little bit about the S in terms of social and the G of governance as well as the environmental side. I did actually go on one of the Cambridge SISL courses on corporate net zero, because I wanted to kind of do a bit more of that bottom-up and get a broader picture. And it's influenced me because at Zigup I've been the initiator of having a carbon literacy program. Because honestly, I think if you're going to describe the company as we do as an enabler of a net zero transition, and this is for like commercial vehicles, I think the business needs to be seen to be embracing that sort of thing. So I'm focused

Capital Markets Days That Land

Ross Hawley 6:08

on what's material for the business and what they can control. And that's true in sustainability as it is in any other part.

Clara Melia 6:13

And looking at your career at Rolls-Royce, you're part of a team during a period of intense operational and reputational challenge. What's your advice for IR professionals for a successful capital markets event and to how to handle some of the corporate governance events that took place?

Ross Hawley 6:30

I think a lot of people, when they talk about this, will say, you know, you need to be well structured, well prepared, and all of that, of course, one would endorse. So I think in some ways I found the most successful ones when they are smaller and kind of Dara set, slightly more intimate events. So I think choosing the audience where possible is good. So make them somewhat more focused. I will say I have done a 24-hour marathon dinner overnight and I've done a set piece for 200 people. So clearly you can't always make it work. But the way I've approached it is kind of I've gone out and I've asked analysts and investors right at the start of the process before we've announced anything to say, look, think about doing an event. And I kind of phrase this, what's going to make you happy leaving the room? What actually do you want to see and hear about on that? And that's been really helpful in trying to start to guide that. So that's one element. And the other really important part is encouraging passion and character from the divisional presenters. And so one sort of anecdote, the first event I did quite a few years ago now, divisional head, he said on the morning, you know, Ross, I've hardly slept overnight. And this is a guy who's run a 700-person division, been in the business 20 years. But he said, There's not much I haven't done, but this is completely new for me. So I'm really quite nervous about it. And I kind of talked to him about being authentic and it was a chance to show off his division, and it's not so different to talking to a prospective client. Obviously, I gave him guardrails in terms of the kind of disclosure restrictions, but really encouraged him to be himself. And when we were catching up afterwards, he was just over the moon. He absolutely loved it. And it's no surprise he's now CEO of that FTSE 250. But equally, the same experience exactly last year when we had a Spanish capital markets event with a team here at Zig Up down in Madrid, and they did an absolute brilliant job of showing why they're the standout leader in vehicle rental, the importance of customer service. And that was, you know, I was there a couple of days beforehand and just giving them the mandate. I gave them some of the English phrases as well because that, but just the mandate to be authentic and be themselves. Because I feel that the role of capital markets events and trade fairs and things like that is really to give an insight for the analyst or the investor into what is harder to take out of the results and stuff just that different aspects to it as CEO and CFO. And therefore having that passion and people who love their business is so important as part of that.

Clara Melia 8:54

And what do you think distinguishes a company that navigates crisis communication well versus one that loses investor confidence?

Ross Hawley 9:02

So this is something we ask and test on the IR Society Diploma course and talk about in IR Society training, et cetera. I kind of reduce it down to some simple things. I mean, answer the phone, handle

Crisis Comms That Keep Trust

Ross Hawley 9:15

the incoming inquiries from shareholders, be available. And I think this is the time actually where phone is most helpful because actually how you sound on the phone really matters in terms of making people and allowing people to feel that there is still thought going on and things are being managed. And I have to say, I've experienced C-suite departures and circumstances. We've even had a legal battle and a strike against our JV partner. So some things where ultimately answering the phone, making sure you're looped into how they're managing the crisis and progress, and being able to say, don't have any update, but giving some context. And also working really closely with PR advisors, I think in this part matters so much. And certainly, I think in the FTSE 250, I've found that IR rows typically manage the financial PR relationship as well. So that's kind of natural. But if you don't, and there's more of a pronounced PR team, you absolutely need to have built those relationships beforehand. So you should

ZIGUP Overview And Rebrand

Ross Hawley 10:14

talk to the PR team if you're somebody in in-house and make sure that you've got those relationships well ahead of time.

Clara Melia 10:19

You joined Zig Up PLC previously Ready Northgate about three and a half years ago. Could you please tell us a bit more about the company and your roles and different responsibilities there?

Ross Hawley 10:30

Sure. So the company is a market leader in light commercial vehicle rental, and that's in the UK and in Spain. We have about 130,000 vehicles across the two. And we're also a major provider of claims management and repair. So if you have an accident and you phone up your insurance company, they're one of the partners, we're highly likely to be the people who are answering the phone and sorting out your claim and the repair for you. The business came together in a merger in 2020, literally just as COVID hit, from FTSE 250 Northgate and Aim Listed Ready. We'd done six acquisitions since then. And I was heavily involved in the rebranding in 2024 to ZigUp. Investors were actually very keen for us to kind of move on from that legacy ready and Northgate into something new. So we've got a 180 branches, 8,000 colleagues, one of the largest buyers of uh LCVs in in Europe. But actually, as a B2B provider, none of our vans have Northgate branding in them or whatever. So we're one of those places I quite like being at, which is a market leader, but one which people don't quite understand. Because I think that kind of gives the IRO scope to really add value. I am yet again a team of one. Whenever I kind of run panels or otherwise, and I go, I'm head of investor relations, I always kind of go, but it's a team of one. And often when the IROs in the audience, I tend to get lots of nods and kind of build that kind of silent acknowledgement that that's quite a regular but quite a different profile. I sit on the group sustainability committee and I've also ensured I'm on the data working group, not because I love data, but actually I want to stay close to what matters. I've been wholly responsible for the website that was developing the new site and managing all the content

One‑Person IR Function Tactics

Ross Hawley 12:06

and the features. I need to be slightly humble, but you know, we've won a number of awards for our website. And I think that's really so much for the content, which I've tried to put on there, and then some of the videos and some of the other elements. Because for a company which is a bit complex and not well known, actually having a good website, I think, really matters. And I work very closely with the internal comms team. And we are a business which headquarters is Darlington. You know, even before COVID, it was a very disparate group. So managing those internal networks uh really matters. And Lisa, who runs the internal comms and I, we kind of have a very strong Teams relationship and she knows a lot about my family and everything, but it's all 99% over Teams calls.

Clara Melia 12:44

And tell us a bit more about your IR program. I mean, I personally enjoy following you on LinkedIn because I think you're quite innovative in your approach to investor relations, and it's interesting for our team to observe what you're doing Commons-Wise. And I know, for example, you publish a IR newsletter, and so maybe tell us a bit about your program and maybe some of the changes you've made to sort of innovate and around your communication.

Ross Hawley 13:09

Yeah, well, thank you. That's nice to know I have a follower. I think my background is as a historian, I'm not an accountant, but I do believe that narrative and storytelling really matters. And when I was at Page Group, uh recruiter, obviously they're very heavily using LinkedIn, and I did learn quite a lot about what you should be thinking about doing on LinkedIn from a corporate perspective and also from I don't sort of want to say a personal perspective, but one which actually helps people on the professional side. And then if you add on to that kind of my IR society profile and what I've worked there, I think

Storytelling, LinkedIn, And Newsletters

Ross Hawley 13:46

if you kind of look at the stages of my what I've talked about externally, I was very focused on talking about professional development for a number of years to support being chair of that committee, a bit less so on the policy because that's a little bit more complex, et cetera, but certainly doing that. And then about sustainability and particularly recently about AI, but I've always kind of tried to flagged it AI for IROs, so people who are following the company can read it if they're interested or not. I don't want to say I channel my inner Jeremy Clarkson, but I do think that you have to make, and I mean, from his time when he was writing at the Sunday Times, I always enjoyed, and I'm a complete car nut, the way which he brings certain kinds of extracts and elements together. But you actually get left with a thoughtful point. So I do try and make sure it's thoughtful, and I think there's so much to write about on that. I'm not a huge fan of just kind of saying, hey, I was here, or just publishing results, because I don't think LinkedIn actually works in that way. But I do think that that's useful. And you're asking about kind of the newsletter. And I think both of them, there's probably an element where I think the storytelling and this idea of investor relations, that some of that character needs to come through. I feel that investor relations officers, maybe it's just me, are highly schizophrenic. That when you have your CEO or CFO, whatever in the room, then actually you're just the quiet facilitator, you're making sure things are working well, but people want to talk to them. And I have a role to make that work, but not trying to do too much or just give them support in terms of maybe an anecdote or otherwise. But when they leave the room, you are the representative of the company and you need to behave in the way which actually is within that culture of that company. And so I think some kind of a persona or just genuine, natural, authentic really matters. And on the newsletter, it's not original. John Dawson, who hired me into Rolls-Royce when we were managing the fourth out of five profit warnings, a bit later on when I joined the team, he said, Ross, I used to do this at National Grid, just go and do it, do it your way. And it was a really good thing to do. Rolls-Royce, it was trying to reduce the noise because an awful lot of press releases going out, and investors couldn't capture all of it. So I was just highlighting what mattered. But fundamentally, there was also a FAQ at the end, which is incredibly helpful for people. I've done that again at Zig Up, where we don't have as much newsletter. So it's almost the other way around that it is kind of highlighting areas of the business which I think don't get a look in at results time. I like putting an interview in. I think also going out around the business, because I enjoy doing that and I think it's important, but that needs to come out. So being able to give an insight into what's going on around the business. But I do also know that investors really value that FAQ element. And to me, it's a fantastic way to get complex issues across. And truthfully, if you're a non-accountant like I am, it's a way to simplify and explain some of the quite challenging areas with examples for people to read. We went through huge R for S16 and 15 elements at Rolls-Royce. Here where I am, there's some complexity over how we've managed CapEx, et cetera. So I find they're really useful for that. And I'm always able to point investors to it. And things like AlphaSense or whatever, I've seen when I've reviewed their things, it gets picked up by then and digested in that way as well. So I think it's something which I'm surprised not many other people do. It's not a huge, onerous task. I do it two to three times

Inside The UK IR Society

Ross Hawley 17:04

a year, and there's been very good feedback.

Clara Melia 17:06

So let's talk about your involvement with the UK's Investor Relations Society. And you've been very involved over the years. So you were a board member for 11 years, deputy chair for two of these, chair of the Education Committee for nine years, and you were still chairing the policy committee. Just first, would you be able to just give our listeners, Dick Dow International Listeners, a quick overview of what the UK IR Society does?

Ross Hawley 17:33

Sure. So it is the professional body for the UK investor relations industry. And we have around about 800 members, relatively evenly split between IR professionals, but also those who provide support and advisors to the industry. So very much looking to try and serve both of those. And it's got core areas and core committees, which really think about education, as you noted, policy, as you've noted, because I've been involved in both of those and events as well, and some best practice. So it's always thinking about how it can actually serve that membership group. On a more informal basis, it does a lot of networking events, et cetera. And I think certainly when I joined, I was new into the industry. I was sole IRO for a company where I was the only employee in the UK, because it was an Israeli company, but listed on the London Stock Exchange. It's a bit lonely. And also I thought I knew what I was doing, but I was never quite sure whether some of the nuances. So actually having the Investor Relations Society there to go along to some events to support and those and to get some of the best practices, et cetera, was incredibly helpful. And it's not about paying back. I was invited to get involved in certain things, and I've very much enjoyed that throughout the last 12 years.

Clara Melia 18:45

And perhaps you could talk about some of the highlights from the last 12 years and then come on to talk about what your main focus now is at the society.

Ross Hawley 18:52

Sure. It does seem like rather a lot in terms of what I've been doing. But if I kind of sort of break it down a bit, I think the education committee, which I was asked to go and chair straight off when I joined the board, that was hard work. But I think it's really important to feel that we were delivering for members. And I suppose if I kind of just thought through a couple of highlights, I was heavily involved in the launch of the diploma, where for you know experienced IROs, quite testing. I'm an examiner still on that, but actually asking them to kind of demonstrate their capabilities in both essays and presentation, etc. So that not huge volume of people, but I think it's a really valuable thing for the people who've been in IR for a while. I was very heavily involved in development of the ESG course, no surprise given my sustainability interest. And that runs really pretty regularly because I do think it's an area which is important for IROs to make sure they've got the basics, make sure they're thinking about the right sorts of things. And then finally, the leadership course called Deliver. I was fortunate to be invited to the first of those by John back in 2013. And then actually, because it came under the education side, I've been involved in every single one since. Probably high. Highlight, if I can put it that way, was keeping it running through COVID, because I had to personally moderate all Zoom sessions of that, which was tough. But I was on furlough from Virgin Atlantic at the time, so it was a really nice thing to do. And then finally, I suppose at the policy committee, we did a large round table with government departments earlier this year, Department of Business and Trade, etc. And Liz, who's the incredibly hardworking policy lead, just her coming out of there going, that's kind of why I do the job, that was fantastic, was absolutely a huge highlight. We can talk about the AI side in a moment, but we've just done literally on Tuesday of this week, we did our first in-person event. It sold out, if I can use that word, in a week. So we had expanded to 100 people. We had 30 IROs and

Education Highlights And Training

Ross Hawley 20:44

60 or 70 service providers there, some great speakers we found, and the working group being able to talk about what we're doing. And so that I'm still kind of riding the crest of that. And one LinkedIn post to describe me as a genial host. And yeah, I'll take that.

Clara Melia 20:59

Just quickly to add from my perspective about the courses that the I Society offers, they are brilliant for different stages of an IR professional's career. All of our graduates or all entry-level associates will all sit the certificate in investor relations. Self-study course, there's a great sort of refresher training course in person as well, as part of that. And it's a really good foundation in the sort of regulatory and basic investor relations knowledge you need to succeed in the profession.

Ross Hawley 21:25

Yeah, I'm glad you do that. And I think, you know, I'm not surprised given where you sit in the industry. I was involved in redrafting because it did need upgrading. And back in 2019, we kind of managed the whole process. And I actually personally wrote the people, you know, I can say, did you read chapter one and chapter seven? And it's like, that sounds a bit detailed, but it was 40 pages on the principles of IR and almost the same on actually practice because they weren't ever there before, certainly not in that kind of thing. And I'm a very strong believer that, certainly for the service provider side, it's very hard for them to really understand what an investor relations officer does. And therefore, I really wanted to try and bring it to life. And it's as simple as, you know, what's it like to do a phone call with an investor or a meeting with an investor or how you plan the calendar? So people who are working and kind of may get pushed back by IRO saying, just don't talk to me at the moment, please. Understand the cadence of an investor relations life and just make sure you know when their fully results are, because you'll get a much more receptive audience if you time it right through the year. So I think the certificate is, and well, it's clearly very well respected because we've had probably lost track. It's probably 2,300

Why AI Became A Focus

Ross Hawley 22:34

people go through it over the past 10 years.

Clara Melia 22:36

And next I'm really keen to talk about AI in investor relations. So you've become one of the go-to IROs for thinking on artificial intelligence, specifically around the IR profession. You've mentioned you had a great event. So we're recording this in sort of early November 2025. So earlier this week, you had the events with the IR Society on AI. So talk us a little bit about sort of how you sort of positioned yourself in this area, and then perhaps we can come on to talk more about the event this week.

Ross Hawley 23:08

Yeah, um, finding myself in these kind of roles. So I do kind of often wonder how I found myself in this role. But there's a fairly one clear thing. I'm a non-executive director on a technology consultancy called Blue Hat Associates. It's run by my friend, and I've been involved with them for quite a while. And that's absolutely helped because I've got ready access to really some true experts in that. And they are very interested and focused on the AI spaces as part of what they offer. And so actually being able to ask the stupid questions, being able to understand and hear how they're kind of working with clients on you know some very interesting projects and actually understanding hallucinations in generative AI. And then when so says, without hallucinations, generative AI does not work. It's a core essential part of what it does. The critical thing is is the model got the right kind of controls and checking to make sure that they don't come through into the reality. And the answer is some are better than others. But just simple things like that, going, okay, it's a core part of it. Or machine learning gives you the same answer each time, generative AI unlikely to because it's really to do with probabilities, etc. And it just opens up in those simple ways better ways to understand. So that's one part. I think the other thing I've actually found myself more often not working at technology-led companies, if I can say that. And, you know, my background as a medieval historian, and I kind of studied things like medieval rabbits in Thetford in the 1320s. So quite how I'm now a go-to person on AI, I am still sort of waiting to be found out. But actually, my my perspective is the practical one, which is how can we actually engage with it and broadly know whether there are emperors' clothes around, understand whether you're actually talking to an advisor who understands it or not. And almost that goes back down to one of the early questions, which you said. I'm always trying and be very respectful to advisors because I think certainly for a small team, advisors have a great insight into how the industry is using things, and therefore understanding how they can help, understanding there are things and actually learning from them is really important. And AI is absolutely one of those.

Clara Melia 25:16

And as part of the event earlier this week, you've surveyed, I believe, the IR profession on adoption of AI

How The Buy Side Uses AI

Clara Melia 25:23

technology. Perhaps you could share some of the highlights from the survey.

Ross Hawley 25:27

Oh, that's asking me for numbers, isn't it? I think there is no surprise that more people are using it weekly in terms of in some way, shape, or form. I'm sure a lot of that is that the incumbent with Microsoft co-pilot, more people are getting access to some elements of that to use, and it's certainly got its place, but it's not that focused on its workflow stuff, which I think is true for any and productivity for any department. So I use that, I don't love it, but I think it's quite helpful. So there are definitely people who are thinking about using that in that place. There are less who are really engaging with it on a standalone basis. I think I wouldn't class people who have chat GPT or or whatever as stuff, and certainly we may well talk about some of the guardrails. If anybody listening is using ChatGPT, just move over to perplexity. It's a much more financially rigorous and better response on that. That's something I would often say. So I think it's definitely of the moment, given we had 100 people in the room. I think the advisors need to embrace this. And I always advise that people go and talk to your incumbents who understand IR and ask about that AI roadmap, just so you can understand what's coming through and you can benchmark them against others.

Clara Melia 26:38

And you've described AI as another stakeholder sitting between the IRO and the investor. And you and I have talked previously about what's more important, the adoption of AI by an I professional, or actually understanding the adoption of AI by the buy and sell side. So I'm kind of interested in your views on that.

Ross Hawley 26:58

Sure. I'm hoping a bit later you're going to say what is good and bad about generative AI, but I'm not going to go there now. I'm going to try and answer this question. So yeah, I had a couple people saying it's not another stakeholder group, you're misrepresenting it. But I would say it was an it's an easy way to just kind of change the way which people think a bit. I think if you go back when I was at a hedge

Making Content Machine‑Readable

Ross Hawley 27:16

fund and they were growing up, the the quants kind of grew there. And so much of our investor base are ones we don't talk to much at all because they're not the active managers. And we do talk to their, you know, clearly the you know, the corporate governance side of that. But so we lost a lot of that kind of part of the shareholder base 20 years ago. Algorithmics we've probably never spoken to, the really fast money, we never even know it's there. So the core area which are really our stakeholder group at the moment, you know, now are the active managers. And I think it's absolutely the case that the impact of AI on the buy side and increasingly on the sell side is a fundamental shift, which I think has happened in the last 12 to 18 months. Because if you think about what the good parts of AI, the machine learning, the able to assimilate huge amounts of information to be able to search in those kind of ways. If your role is to try and cope with understanding a lot of industries, an awful lot of companies, track what's going on, et cetera, then AI is a massively helpful tool for you. And the more sophisticated ones are absolutely using it to help prepare for conferences, et cetera. I was at one conference and uh sitting at dinner with an investor, I said, Are you using AI? And he said, Yeah, yeah, I use ChatGPT. I've got 30 companies going to see, I've asked it to give me 10 questions for each. And I went, Chat GPT, really? They said, Yeah, you need to understand. I have professional Chat GPT, I have my personas in there. We're very focused on the following five metrics. They know that. So all the questions are led around to make sure that they're asking the right ones on the stuff I care about. And again, my eyes opened a bit more on going, okay, there is so much which is being done at that level, even with let's call it basic in terms of chat GPT, which means that the way in which investors are consuming corporate output has changed significantly. So it's beholden on us as investor relations and the originator of that output to understand how that is changing. And we had the Goldman Sachs analyst on the panel who's saying, you know, they're being really being asked about getting APIs to plug in the information that are from what they're doing to provide that to, of course, a lot of hedge funds, but more than that. So the way in which our information and output is being disseminated as an IRO, you need to understand that.

Clara Melia 29:32

And can you give any high-level sort of tips about how information should be presented to optimize an analysis of that information by AI? And perhaps now's a good time to touch on Gen AI engines. And I know, for example, they struggle to download and analyze PDF content. So interested in your thoughts in this specific area.

Ross Hawley 29:54

Yeah, and I've written about this on LinkedIn as a route and done it as a public post because people were really quite interested in it. This issue about PDFs, I mean, it will improve, but it's Gen AI are sampling an awful lot of stuff. And if there's a specific query coming in, they will go and find

AI Risks, Guardrails, And Use Cases

Ross Hawley 30:11

the easiest source to do that. And there is no doubt that HTML, your website, is a very good trusted source, but so is the Wall Street Journal and so is Reddit and things like that. So if the information which you are wanting to get out there isn't in a very good structured format, then they may well look elsewhere. And that's what I've just been talking about, trying to avoid doing that. And so it's as simple as lots of people are sort of saying, go and do a micro site for your annual report and make sure that that is well structured. If you've got the money, fantastic. But I'm sort of thinking I don't have the money. But also, isn't that about three or four weeks too late? So actually, it's all about the press release on the day of results, make sure that that's actually being able to be digested on an HTML basis. Some of the PR newswares are actually then doing that themselves. I've actually put quite a lot of the press release portion up as an HTML. I make sure the data's already up there, et cetera, just to make it easier for people to digest. On the website, videos, the whole world is moving too much, well, that's digestible, but put a transcript on as well, an HTML transcript, because actually that's how it's will be digested by the AI agents. So there are ways in which you can just make it easier without changing the content. If you want to get really technical, talk to your Annie report provider, how are they building a page? Because if you look through the accessibility view, if they've built a page as a table, generative AI can go, okay, it's a table, and I know that's a heading and that's a number. If they've done some funky design but they're not connected together, it requires the generative model to actually go, okay, I think those two are related, and you absolutely can't rely on getting that right or wrong.

Clara Melia 31:52

And what do you think the biggest risk IR professionals should be considering from a sort of regulatory, a compliance, a governance perspective when it comes to AI?

Ross Hawley 32:04

I think there is some part which you need to go, the risks have not necessarily changed in terms of the principles. If you are emailing price-sensitive information, material information outside your group, you're already creating those kinds of risks. So for one part of it, it's actually the same kind of principles as one has in normal working life. You need to be very thoughtful about that. That's why the advice is never going load up price-sensitive information into models and certainly not ones which aren't kept at that enterprise level. I think the reality with AI is it's so fast and it's so you can't really, you don't really understand where all that information is going to. That being safe is perhaps the the more cautious and sensible view. But equally, that's a real problem because you do want to be able to use it. And so part of what the working group have done is provide some guidelines. And actually, this is my neighbor in Sussex who's helped write them because she's a governance, AI governance expert, is talk to your legal team about what the right kind of guardrails and how you deal with that and how you deal with the suppliers. So I do think that deal with it sensibly, think about how it is controlled, think about that price sense

Deploying An IR AI Site Tool

Ross Hawley 33:14

of information. I do think the other element is know what it's good for. And therefore, when you are using AI, maybe not quite on those compliance controls, but on your discipline as an investor relations person. Don't be lazy and use generative AI to write stuff for you, is kind of my just go down that route. Because I think the investor relations, the core skill set is being authentic voice of your company, that you're focusing on what is really material for your business, and that you're trying to simplify an industry you're in or a company you work for. And in truth, those things are not stuff which generative AI, best one in the world, are really any good at. They can help with your critical thinking, they can help with, you know, saying I'm a professional investor, what my take from the public statements of this company, et cetera. It's all really useful stuff. But actually, the core thing about creating that content, etc., should be kept with you. It will save me three showers and two dog walks in terms of trying to think what do I want to say in the CEO statement, but it's not going to write the CEO statement for me. And actually, I put into the ZigUp annual report, I checked with the providers of all the different sectors. Have you used generative AI for any draft or whatever? We made a clear statement at the back. We did not use generative AI for any drafting of this, did use it for, as you saw with the workflow and summarizing, et cetera, to help support that with picture editing. But I think people should consider at the moment, very clearly about that, the clarity of what you're using it for and what you're not using it for.

Clara Melia 34:49

Just on the same sort of subject, are you seeing many companies have got an AI policy specific to IR? And are you finding that boards are well or not well educated when it comes to AI?

Ross Hawley 35:02

Boards are needing to get more. I think IR is probably a slight offshoot of that. It's something which the working group are absolutely thinking about, and I think you know, we will by Christmas have published not here's an AI policy for you, but the kind of things which you ought to think about. Because honestly, it's not an area where we can really do best practice because it's out of date in in a week. But actually the principles of what you're trying to guard against and how you think about it, I think, are relatively stable. So we will certainly give some thought to that. But how it fits into the overall structure and controls of a business, I think, are ones which need to blend into some of the other areas. But I still go back to the don't allow it to do the writing or even encourage you to do the writing, but do allow you it to help you do the thinking beforehand. And I'm not sure that's to be written in a policy, but I just think it's it's good practice.

Clara Melia 35:54

And are there other ways in which you've adopted AI technology or other technology at Zigup?

Ross Hawley 35:59

I think we're very early adopter of this, and we use an AI

Choosing Providers And Agentic AI

Ross Hawley 36:03

web tool, it's actually the first time that that provider had offered it out and sort of embraced that. So it's been up and running for about a year, which people can see on the website. What's interesting is that it actually goes across the entire website, it's not just based on a document, but it's across the site, and all the documents are loaded up into it. And therefore, that actually gives a very good way to search across a website for whatever you're interested in. It's something which has actually gone down very well with areas I didn't expect it to. And so just to what I mean by that, is it of real interest and significance to our investor base? A little bit, I think. But we all ought to be realistic. As I said before, they've all the sophisticated AI users are going to be going and using their own models to interrogate. I think the corporate governance side, absolutely, where they do a little bit more of the analysis themselves, etc. What's been surprising is actually how much the internal team, the sales force, you know, our sales team around the place, my sustainability colleague, and again, I I got a message from him on a Friday night saying, I just want to say how fantastic the tool is. It saved me so much today on that because we're doing an RFP, and actually I know exactly what we've said on certain things, what's been public in there, so I'm able to use that. And the tool also works in Spanish, and we've got a large Spanish business. So therefore, again, it can manage those different languages. So it's actually been really helpful in ways I never expected it to be. But on Tuesday night, hearing about how the buy side and the sell side are using things, it depends where they are and their level of sophistication. But when we launched it, it was my uh good friend Andrew Nossi at Peel Hunt. Peel Hunt, I think, are very recognized as a smaller broker who really have embraced AI. He said, you know, your AI tool's pretty good because it comes up with broadly the same kind of answers as ours, and I know ours is excellent. So it was a worthwhile activity to do. I'm not sure it's massively moving the dial, but I think it's it's something which people should think about.

Clara Melia 38:00

And just to wrap up what's been a really fascinating conversation on AI, is there anything pertinent that we've not discussed that you think an IR professional should also be thinking about, or anything else you want to discuss around the

Careers: Breaking Into IR

Clara Melia 38:13

subject?

Ross Hawley 38:14

Well, at the frontier side of AI, I mean, first of all, do keep track of what the working group are doing. We are trying hard, and there's been some nice feedback from people to say you're actually helping people think about it in a sensible way. And Nick Stone, who is formerly at GSK, was a person I would sit in the audience and just listen to and kind of go, he's doing some really crazy stuff, because he had an awful lot of AI developers. And I'm now kind of fortunate to being kind of on the panels with him now. But you know, he's thinking about things such as building AI twins of the sell-side analysts who cover them, you know, with all of their historic public output, and can therefore test out results and potential responses to questions or things which really impact the industry. So I think that's a fascinating area, but it's not for me in the FTSE 250, but really interesting. And there's definitely elements around investor access and stuff. So I think really talk to your providers, but think hard about whether you rather have a provider who gets investor relations and then add some AI tools onto it, or ones who totally embrace AI, but may not really understand the IR industry. And you're going to have to make up your own judgment call, but I do kind of value those who understand IR rather than coming from a pure software technology perspective.

Clara Melia 39:27

I agree completely. And I think IR professionals should be aware that actually some of the tools that are being marketed to the IR profession are actually originally built for a different audience. So I've seen some tools which are designed for more for retail investors or for institutional investors to be scrutinizing information and they've sort of adapted them loosely for IR, but they're not quite tailored and specific to the needs of our profession. So always sort of consider the broader context of the tool that's been sold to you.

Ross Hawley 39:55

Yes. And I think just to add on that, so agentic AI is definitely going to be a very interesting. Space for everybody. And the people who I've been talking to have been basically providing it to the fund managers and research analysts. I go, that's absolutely fine. That's within my environment, which therefore I think that they they definitely get. I'm cautious of anybody who says, tell me what your workflow is. We can help automate it. We can get you 25% improvement in your productivity. And I sort of feel move on because if they're saying that, they don't understand the life of an investor relations professional.

Clara Melia 40:30

And as we wrap up, a question that I ask every guest is what is the best piece of advice you can give to someone looking to move into investor relations?

Ross Hawley 40:39

So if you're in a corporate, see where you can help out at IR-related events,

Closing Thoughts And Takeaways

Ross Hawley 40:44

results preparation, and your report, capital markets days. I think fewer IROs will reject another pair of hands if they can be trusted and can be, you know, relied upon. And that and that's clearly an important part of working out whether that's the right thing for you. So definitely I would say on that. If you are an equity analyst, and clearly that's where a lot of new entrants coming in, please do not underestimate the enormity of the change to moving in-house. Talk to your IRO contacts about those aspects of the role because it's quite a different mindset. I have seen analysts come in and be fantastic IROs and all that. And I've seen some who actually have gone, I had no idea that was the kind of stuff I was really going to be doing for 70% of the time. So I think those would be my two. In either route, I think what we talked about earlier, the IR Society certificate is a great way. Before you're even trying to do it, it gives some credibility, but also just reading that self-study guide, understanding some of the elements there, I think would be very helpful.

Clara Melia 41:46

And finally, is there anything you would like to ask me?

Ross Hawley 41:50

What luxury item am I allowed to take to the desert island?

Clara Melia 41:55

I think it should be an iPhone then, with internet access.

Ross Hawley 42:04

Yes. I think certainly one of the challenges for an IRO is switching off and coping with that. And certainly my family feel that the onset, I was an early user of an iPad when it came in because I was at an online gaming company. It was very digitally enhanced, etc. And it certainly has changed the 24-7 dynamic. And some of that is helpful, so you don't worry if you're anxious like me about what's going on without you there. But it certainly doesn't help in terms of ability to switch off.

Clara Melia 42:31

Very true. I have a one-year-old, so we're about to start navigating the journey, which you can already scroll, which is uh talk, but she knows how to navigate an iPhone page. Look great. Ross, it's been a really fascinating conversation, and I've really appreciated particularly your insights into your own IR programme, but also into the evolving world of the adaptation of AI technology in our profession. So thank you very much for your time today.

Ross Hawley 43:00

Thank you. I've really enjoyed being.

Clara Melia 43:03

And thank you for joining Enquire, the Investor Relations podcast. Please look out for our next episode.