The Lead Creative
The Lead Creative podcast hosts a series of conversations with great minds behind some of the leading brands, businesses, organisations and top ideas that we all love. From advertising thought leaders, forward-thinking brand leaders, innovative digital marketing minds to content creators - the podcast gives into what makes the world engage with some of the top brands. Founded and hosted by Mongezi Mtati, the podcast shares analysis, trends, and strategic intelligence.
The Lead Creative
Why Influencer Marketing Works for Some Brands and Fails for Others
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Influencer marketing investment is growing, but consumer trust remains uneven. What separates creator partnerships that build brands from those that generate a brief spike in attention and disappear?
In this episode of The Lead Creative, Mongezi Mtati speaks to Fluence Africa Founder and CEO Jolene Roelofse and content creator, storyteller and media personality Alphi Mkhwanazi.
They explore why long-term creator relationships often produce more believable work, why brands need to look beyond follower counts and how agencies help translate marketing objectives into briefs creators can use.
The conversation also covers creative freedom, co-creation, unclear expectations, campaign backlash and the role of AI in the future of content creation.
This episode was created in collaboration with our production partners, Soweto Media.
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What makes influencer marketing and content creator partnerships really work? In this episode, I talked to Jolene Rulofse, the founder and CEO of one of the leading influencer marketing agencies, Fluence Africa, who's also the founder of the Africa Creator Festival. We're also joined by Sipo Alfim Kwanazi, a content creator, storyteller, and MC, someone who's known for creating a piece of content on TikTok today and being at the Softas presenting awards tomorrow, from being on a Netflix movie or show today to showing up on another channel creating another piece of content. We talk about why influencer and content creator partnerships work and why they don't work. And of course, with AI growing so rapidly within the influencer marketing space, where we are seeing synthetic content creators also creating content and influencing on behalf of brands, we also discuss where we are with that today and where that puts content creators and the brands they partner with.
SPEAKER_01Understanding the concept of AI, how AI is being used is very important because you can't put your head in the sand and go, oh no, it's not gonna affect me. I'm good, I'm authenticity, I've got that on luck, you know, my numbers are great and all that sort of stuff. No. Understand what AI is doing, understand what's going on. And and when you find yourself in a situation where you can actually even seed it slowly in your content, why not?
SPEAKER_00This is The Lead Creative. I'm your host, Mongi Azim Tati. Please share and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Half of them have authentic content, but the content isn't very polished. It's you know, it's not the type of thing that you see on polished content out there. The other half have very polished, highly performing content, but it doesn't feel authentic. Which half do you go with and why?
SPEAKER_02Oh, do I have to choose uh uh uh a group? Because I would love both. I mean, both of them actually serve a purpose. You want the more polished version in order to attract a more aspiring crowd, and also that's how some creators create their content, and you do want the raw, unfiltered, really authentic voices that's giving you their version of the experience of a product and service or service in their, you know, in their flavor. So, yeah, can I choose both?
SPEAKER_00You have to choose one this time.
SPEAKER_02Um, the first, uh, raw, authentic, unfiltered. I mean, when I started the agency, we predominantly worked with um nano and micro influencers, yeah, and it's for that very reason. They your by word of mouth um marketing guys, you know, back in the day, you're you're where your neighbor tells you about a new product that they're trialing or they handed out um sunlight, new sunlight liquid, you must try it. That's what um influencer marketing is, just online. So I'd go with the first.
SPEAKER_00That's interesting. So what I've no what I've been noticing in recent times is that there are these content creators, influencers who started out in this unpolished kind of space a lot of the time taking you through their everyday lives. Some were living in informal settlements, some were living in you know townships, and then they of course they moved up in the world, but I've noticed that as they move up, they delete that past content, that authentic past content. What's your take on that?
SPEAKER_02I found it very sad because I think it's um it shows growth, it shows where they've come from. But unfortunately, when it comes to what you showcase for a brand manager or brand to discover you, some brand managers don't want to see that. They only want to see the nice polished version of you as opposed to you know your real authentic story. So yeah, it's a bit of yeah, it's I I'm not a big fan of it, but I do understand why some creators actually actually do that. Also, sometimes it goes back to what it represents to them. You know, maybe it was a really hard time. Maybe it's not which what you see on social media. Maybe they were going through a tough time, and that was their way of getting up in the morning and having purpose, right? So when they start experiencing a better time or in the then a new season of their life, maybe they don't want to be remembered, um, um, be reminded of what they've gone through or the journey that they've walked. So it could be a combination of both. But that's why we always say, and I mean I say to my kids, um, don't always believe it's in social media. You know, it doesn't matter how raw and unfiltered it might seem, that might be intentional. But yeah, we only see a half an hour of someone's death and their life, you know. So yeah, it's not always a true reflection of people and what they've gone through.
SPEAKER_00Alfie, here's your uh scenario. So you are called by your all-time favorite international brand. It's a global campaign. Um, you're the only one in Africa, once in a lifetime opportunity, but you know that the content won't feel authentic. It won't get it won't get, excuse me, it won't get people where your content usually gets people. It won't get them to act or do anything. On the other hand, you've got a fairly known brand, not very known. The content will be very authentic. You feel you believe in how you can create this content, but the brand isn't big and the reach won't be as big. Which one do you go with?
SPEAKER_01Based on my strategy, the big international brand is where I'm going to lean towards specifically because of what I'm trying to create within the content creation space. There's a specific story that I'm trying to tell. There is a specific narrative that I'm trying to push as well. Because once you've worked with that international brand, once you start getting all of those insights and how things are done within a global scale, you're then able to take all of those insights and those key learnings and apply them into working with all these other small brands. So it doesn't necessarily mean that you've now closed that door completely, but it now means that you're now able to pull because I think that we want to aspire to a certain level of content creation. I think content creators in South Africa are unmatched, you know. We're absolutely brilliant, we come with so much flavor, you know, and by virtue of that, it's still important for me to be able to appeal to international audiences and take what they're doing and put South Africa to the world, you know. And so that for me is very important. And I've been very, very um intentional about that to say, in as much as I am telling the story of a Davidson boy, yeah, I still want that David and boy to do something in the big apple. I still want that Davidson boy to be a JF Kennedy and say, I'm here, I did it, you know, because I know what that means for another young gentleman who's like, I'm living in a shack and I don't know what tomorrow looks like. Yeah, but Alfie's from the the shack next to us and look at what he's done. So it's definitely achievable. And then we're able to take those insights and say, guys, this is what's going on in the US. This is what's going on in Asia. Have you tried this? I was in Greece and this is what the brand, I hated it. It was terrible. I mean, there are moments when Joe has to call me and be like, Oh, I need this piece of content now. Client needs it today. And because of the nature of the brands that I work with, when I'm working with her, there's a specific standard and there's a specific way we create that piece of content. But now when I work with the smaller people, then I'm able to say, look at what we did with this. Now imagine what we could do to profile your story as well.
SPEAKER_00Sticking with you, Alfie, it looks from the outside looking in, it looks and feels as though content creators go with the big budget, the opportunity that a brand kind of brings. Whereas there's a lot that goes into that. Right. So, in your view, and again with your strategy, as you've just mentioned, what makes you say yes to this brand? And very importantly, what makes you say no to another brand?
SPEAKER_01One of the biggest things that I aim for with any of the brands that I work with is longevity. I always say to my clients, I do not do one-hit wonders, and I don't like one night stands. You know, if we're gonna do it, let's tell a true authentic story. And in order to be able to tell that story, there must be you don't tell a story just in one go. A story keeps unfolding over and over. So I am comfortable with working with three brands in a year and just calling it quits as opposed to now doing all of these small little campaigns. Yes, it drives my campaign managers crazy. It annoys them so much because they're like, Alfie, come on, this is such a great opportunity and you'd be such a great fit for this. But for me, it's a in order for us to be able to tell a proper story, I need more than four posts. I need us to take this through for a four-month journey. I mean, the stuff that we've done in the brands that we're working with, sometimes they don't even come with a brief. Jolene doesn't need to give me a brief anymore. She's just gonna say, Listen, I need a piece of content. Or I'll come to her and be like, hey, listen, this is what I have in mind. What do you think of this? She's like, you know our messaging, you know what we want to say, and you know what client wants to get. Do it, and we'll see what you come up with. And then I give them that proof of concept, and that's some of those pieces of content have outperformed the content pieces that have come with strict brief to say in the first seven seconds of the video, you must, you know. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02Can I can I add sure absolutely and I think also that's storytelling, right? Because you mentioned that previously, as South Africans and Africans, we are phenomenal storytellers, right? But you can't tell a story in 30 seconds, right? Also, in the life of a consumer, how many consumers actually just trial a product a product out once and then that's the end of it? You trial it out every other day, right? You either use it in the morning or tomorrow I'm gonna use it midday, tomorrow the day after I'm gonna use it at night, etc. So you've got to show how that product is showing up in your life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Different times of the day, different times of the week, etc. You can't do it in just one post.
SPEAKER_04For sure.
SPEAKER_02So it's also one of the things, and this is why we enjoy working with Alfie, is because he believes in that longevity, in that storytelling, in you building up to a moment. Like I call it like um treating um um the posts as a book, different chapters.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_02Every chapter is different, and that's that's how you've got to do the storytelling.
SPEAKER_00It's a it's a it's a marriage, not a one-night stand. I love that. I might just take that. Um and I think this opens up an interesting thing again for me because when I look at the stats, the research, the things that are happening in the markets, there are mixed sort of reviews and mixed stats, I suppose. One saying influencer marketing is growing, other saying influencer marketing is growing, but the trust is is kind of dipping. So GWI, for instance, would suggest that while influencer marketing is on the rise, consumer trust is uneven, especially when it feels as though the content is transactional, when it feels as though the content is very much this one night stand not marriage thing that Alfie mentions. Where are marketers getting it right in their approach to influencer marketing and where are they missing it?
SPEAKER_02Um, coming from a marketing background, the marketers that get it right are the ones that believe in having, um, like some of the brands we work with, um, a squad that is there always on a group of people that continuously tell the story. They play an ambassadorial role as opposed to just uh I'm an influencer, I'm a content creator. You know, they go to all of the events, they will do ad hoc posting, they really believe in the brand, and more importantly, they know the brand. Right. And once you know a brand, immediately your storytelling becomes a lot more authentic because I'm not being forced to now land the key messages that even as I say it feels foreign, you know. It's I really believe it because I also enjoy and I use the product on a regular basis. Um, the ones that are not getting it right are the ones that don't believe in building a tribe of content creators that you continuously use and want to hit for the big names or the ones that are popular at a particular time and also the ones that are not getting the mix right, where you have different groups of influences, like the question you asked me earlier. The ones that do beautiful, polished content as well as the ones that do raw, really authentic, gritty content. Because I think the other thing that marketers sometimes forget is you can't have one piece of content on all platforms. You need different people on different platforms. Like I always say, you've got to think of social media as a book. The covers, Instagram, beautiful image, polished, one-line caption with two hashtags, maybe at least. Then say it says, Um, click link in bio for more information. Were you directing them to your long form? Video on Facebook, video on YouTube, your website, your newsletter, um, your podcast. Yeah, on the back of the book, it is TikTok short. Again, directing people to the inside of the book, YouTube Shorts directing you to the inside of the book, X, etc. Once you use it in that manner with different pieces of content created by different creators who are specialists in on each of those platforms, different story. That's how you get it right.
SPEAKER_00And I guess that also increases authenticity and the realness of both the brand and the content as well.
SPEAKER_02100%. Like we do briefing sessions, for example. I mean, um, Alfie alluded to sometimes he doesn't even get a briefing from us because he just knows what's what to do, right? When we do a briefing session, we always say to the client, this is a guide. We are not saying, and we say that to influencers as well, please do not do this verbatim. Because I firmly believe that the job of an influencer is to, if they know their audience properly, is to show how the product or the service is changing their lives. It's showing how it's solving a problem that their community already has, that they know of. They're not telling you about this microphone. Everybody knows about this microphone. How is this microphone changing my life today, tomorrow, and in the future? And and once we get that right, authentic storytelling will follow. You can have the same briefing with five different people. Each of them have got a different way of landing the message. You'll have five different um content that come out that are all very authentic.
SPEAKER_00In our previous conversation, Alfie, you mentioned that you prefer working with agencies rather than brands because of how they understand the process or how the process kind of works. What is it about agencies that makes the process better for you that brands in some instances don't get right?
SPEAKER_01I'm so glad you're you you mentioned that this is in a previous conversation because my views have changed slightly. So, in as much as I I take on that approach, I've learned that it's always good to sort of streamline conversations and and and ensure that everyone sort of knows what's going on in the playing field. Why is it important to work with agencies? The agency has a bird's eye view on what is going on, the strategic objectives of what the brand wants to achieve, the budget, the timelines, and the key messaging of where we're trying to go with the story we're trying to tell and with this product or the service, right? And they also understand okay, if Alfie's going to produce a piece of content, it's probably going to take him seven days, the turnaround time, we're going to factor in two edits or you know, that sort of stuff, you know, whereas brand sees a piece of content and thinks, oh my goodness, this is what we want. This, yes, this is it. We want this exactly like this. Whereas it doesn't work like that. So it's always important to have those conversations um parallel in a sense, but always lean towards the agency because the agency knows how to manage the client as well. You know, they know how to say, okay, that's great. I know you want to achieve that, but now let's now work our way backwards. Okay, this is where we want to go. What do we need to make sure that we take off in order to get there? Whereas brand is very, very idealistic in their thinking they're already there, and it's like, yo, well, Alfie, you've done it before, you're gonna do it again, but let's go. Whereas agency will now put on the roadmap and say, Okay, cool. Actually, instead of you doing this, Alfie, let's pass this to this person because they're very good at this, yeah, and you will then come in from this angle. Do you get what I'm saying? Whereas brand doesn't necessarily see that, brand is just excited, they're in a shop and they've seen their toy, and their toy is amazing, you know. So I I try to I try to do that, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So one of the CMOs we spoke to who came from an agency. In fact, they both came from an agency. So we had a sort of three-way conversation, and they both came from agency, and they were saying that being inside the brand makes them understand even more that the agency understands human behavior better sometimes than the brand. And I think it's this balance that I hear you kind of referring to as well, that the one understands the brand, the other understands the human behavior and the ins and outs of that content creation process. Jolene, we were doing an automotive report, released an automotive report recently, and an interesting thing that we saw is that some brands are really winning with influencer marketing, other brands not so much. And these are our brands. I don't know, I'm not sure. Could very well be, right? So um so some brands are kind of winning in that space, some brands not so much, right? So I guess what why is it that some brands in the same category with similar budgets, fairly similar strategies, similar sorts of content creators, everything almost looks the same, but in the same category, some brands will see sustained momentum and growth, and other brands just don't have their message land as well. What makes that?
SPEAKER_02It's interesting that you asked this question on the back of the statement that you'd made about um brand managers not really understanding human nature.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and I think it's because, as a brand or marketing manager, your main job and role is to sell products and stuff at shop, right? And yes, to know and then understand and know who's the consumer that's gonna buy it. When you're on the agency side, you know you're closer to the consumer and you know what it is the consumer wants and who is the consumer going to listen to. The difference between those brands that that perform really well is they are working with agencies and they're giving them the freedom to allow to bring creators on board who can do authentic storytelling, but more importantly, bring creators on board who have access to the audience that the brand is looking for. Right? So, what some brands do is they like an influencer or creator. But what they don't do, and and they look at what their following is, and oh, they're big on TikTok, Instagram, it's perfect for our brand. However, the influence is the conduit that you actually want to access the audience.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I'm pretty sure. I haven't seen your report. I'd love to see the report. But I'm pretty sure that when we look at it, it will be it's because of the type of creators that they've used and because they wanted to access the audience. Sure. B, it would be the platform that they've chosen to um do the storytelling on. Because I know that automotive, having worked with the likes of um um Mazda in the past, is when people decide to purchase a car, they don't go into Instagram, or onto TikTok, they go into YouTube and they watch a whole lot of review shows, right? Reviews of cars. And you go and you follow specific influences for that as well. So you need your guys that know automate automotion, automotive, automotive industry. Then you get your guys that are lifestyle focused, the guys with the family, the guys with the dog, etc. Yeah, and it's the guys, it's the brands who use a mixture of those categories that are winning. Because that is what's resulting in not just authentic storytelling, but also information that's going to assist in selling the various vehicles.
SPEAKER_01Just to add on to that, I used to be an automotive writer at some point, and there was we we we we realized that there was a gap in the market. So you would have all of these writers speaking about the horsepower, the torque, the petrol consumption, the this, the that, the that. Yes, the tires and and how all of that sort of stuff. But no one was saying this is what it feels like to be in this car and the sunroof is open.
SPEAKER_02Oh, how big is the boot?
SPEAKER_01How big is the boot?
SPEAKER_02If you're expecting a baby, I'm gonna have to buy a prep. How big is the boot? That sort of stuff. I have two dogs, exactly. All of them are gonna fit into my car.
SPEAKER_01You see, and so I'd bring in that feel to say, actually pay attention to these aspects. Like when you're inside and you're playing the Apple CarPlay system, you know, does that is it how does that feel? And and we'd find that how easy is it to connect to that?
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_01So we'd find that those pieces of content would do so well because, yes, in as much as you are still speaking automotive, there's a different angle and a lens in which you are approaching that piece of content with.
SPEAKER_02And that's understanding your consumer, right? Because your female consumer buys a car very differently to a male consumer. Correct. And both of them, yes, will go do their research because by the time they get to the showroom, they've already narrowed it down to two cars. Yes, you're one of two brands that I'm buying from today. Um, but I've already done my research. It was either because I followed um Julia, and Julia showed me how big the boot is when she was transporting her dogs, or how many pieces of grocery pieces pack she can put in, or it's um um a male who was following um I can't remember any of the male guys now. Um a Michael, I think it's Michael, um, that's on YouTube and already know, like, okay, I want X horsepower, I want XYZ, you know. So that's that's what the difference is. It's again, it's knowing your audience, the audience that you want to attract, and then working with agencies and creators that can ensure you attract those audiences.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think out of that I also get the creative freedom as well from a brand perspective, giving the creative freedoms for the influencer, the creator, the reviewer, the aggregator to be able to create the content as they would for their audience.
SPEAKER_01And that's sorry, that comes from trust and longevity. Takes time to develop that trust with creator, brand, and audience. Yeah. Because if you don't spend enough time with the brand, you can't get to that trust level because a brand can't trust you to tell their story. It's just like you just arrived. Like, are you gonna say the right things? Yeah, but once you spend time, client knows whatever Alfie's gonna post, I know he's gonna get it right because he's taken so much time studying and understanding the brand that we know he's gonna land it.
SPEAKER_00On the trust um part, Jolene, I just want to come back to you because Alfie brings it up. I think on the trust bit, there's thus there are a few things that I've noticed having these conversations. The one is there's a brand that worked with an agency uh for the first time and they shoot the lights out. They shoot the lights out in a way that an agency that would have worked with the same brand for five years, ten years would have shot the lights out, right? They just get the brand like that. And that comes from sometimes a long relationships relationship, that can also come from shorter relationships, as we see, right? So Alfie mentions time to build that trust. In your view, does the trust thing take time? Can it be short, or is it about instinct?
SPEAKER_02It's a combination of all of it. You either instinctively know what is going to work for a brand, and then and and I think the brand has to trust that okay, based on what you've proposed and your numbers and your your history as an agency, it seems like you can you can do this, but again, you know, it's trusted to be building with each campaign. Um but there's also long-term trust, you know, it is it is a manner of the more campaigns you work on, the more you really truly understand the brand, unless you've worked on a similar brand or in a similar industry. So you know what you can do and what you can't do. Like in the alcohol industry, for example, there's a lot of rules and regulations, different rules and regulations in the automotive industry, but they do have um rules and regulations that overlap, sure. You know, like no alcohol, no no can't be near water, even in a car. You know, so there's a lot of similarities, but also if you've got an understanding of the industry, at the trust and rapport gets built a lot quicker because you're able to speak with confidence if you've worked on similar campaigns.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But um, but yeah, trust is what you what you build, and what we do ask um from an agency perspective of brands is to sometimes blindly trust us. Yes, you know, um and also trust us very blindly sometimes with new creators um or new ways of working, or when we decide to go off script, etc. Um, because at the end of the day, we're asking them to trust that we are going to give them the results that they that they want.
SPEAKER_00Sure. I want to come back uh to you, Alfie, on the same thing. Uh so innovation doesn't happen, often doesn't happen from people who've known the space for for the longest time, right? Like we mentioned automotive writers or fashion writers or a fashion influencer. Somebody who has worked in an industry has learned the industry so much that they become stuck in the ways of that particular industry. So they can't innovate, right? So sometimes how then as a brand, so let's say I'm a brand manager, um, how then do I trust you, not having worked in this industry, for you to shoot the lights out? Because that's very well where the innovation may come from, right? That's very well where create the creativity may come from. How do we strike that relationship?
SPEAKER_01You have to understand the creator that you've chosen and pay attention to the stories that they've told in order to know how well they fare with uh the content that they're going to produce as well. And I'm so sorry to name drop there um we work with Barnell Mukellings.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01Any brief under the sunelli is going to mutilate it. It doesn't need to be, it could be sports, it could be automotive, it could be alcohol, it could be, it could be lifestyle, it could be fashion, whatever it is. Because of just his approach and how he does things, I I can trust that he's good. And sometimes in the most simplest ways of telling that story, I was once asked by a brand to create content for sports. Anyone who knows me, I don't even know what the 18 area is. I was like, what the 18 area? What what what? But um I went into my alter ego, Mom Sposh. Yeah. Now, Mom Sposh is that agony aunt that just doesn't know anything about anything, but she has an opinion on everything, yeah, you know, and when I leaned onto her, she was able to now take a heavy sporty piece of content and make it so relatable. I was even surprised because I was like, actually, she played on the fact that she knew nothing about sports, and that was what the audience engaged on so much. That's what they related to, to say, actually, this is what my mom sounds like when we're watching a match. Yeah, this is what my mom does when we're trying to focus on, you know, this is what's going on and all that sort of stuff. Screaming in the background, oh, the dishes washed, you know. It's like we're trying to watch a match. So I I so it it really depends. It's it's you have to pay attention to the creator, sure. Pay attention to the stories that they've told and also see, okay, they were thrown in the deep end here, but they swam. You know, so I think it it's really important to understand and do your research and see what your creator is able to do and then execute from that. Sure. Sorry.
SPEAKER_02Um, I want to add to that. That is linked to the bravery of a brand giving the brief that not come that doesn't come from a premise of you telling people what the product or the service is. Like what I'm telling you what's gonna happen, and yes, and I'm hoping it'll land. What you then do by coming from a background of I don't actually know, you're actually opening it up for a lot more events, right? Because now people are gonna try and give advice and try and give their input, etc. And that way, as they're asking questions, there's an opportunity for the brand to step in and answer those questions. You know, so instead of just what I want, I hope brands will start moving away from soon, it's creating replicas of their ads. Influencer marketing is not to be a platform for ads. Influencer marketing is someone with influence who can take that product and service, put it in their own narrative that they know the audience is going to understand and explain what the product and service does. That means that yes, you can include some of your key messages, but it cannot be verbatim like your ad.
SPEAKER_00It is not Yeah, and I think uh a conversation for another day is that we talk to, again, we've spoken to marketers and heads of creative, like executive creative directors, and the common theme is that ads look like ads now. Um and ads feel like ads. Uh, and this is true whether in influencer marketing on TV, whether you're watching a video on YouTube and an ad comes up, and that's one of the to your point that that you're making, one of the antidotes to making work that doesn't feel like ads. And what you've uh uh described, Alfie. So coming back to you, Alfie. So a lot of the friction or some of the friction in influencer marketing comes down to briefing and expectations, and you've touched on this, and I just wanted to unpack this a little bit more. So some brands have these expectations and the brief isn't clear, and or sometimes the brief is clear, but the expectations don't match the brief. And when that happens, the work suffers. In your view, what are some of the early warning signs that this is going to be a difficult piece of work to work on?
SPEAKER_01If there is no conversation, if there is no open conversation, right, and I'm sure I annoy my brands like crazy because I'm overbearingly, I I communicate I over-communicate, you know, and that's why I'm able to communicate to the likes of Joe. I don't even know if other influences have the same access that I have to Joe because I'm like Joe, I'm thinking of this, I think it's gonna work. What do you think? Whereas somebody else is like, I don't think, I don't should I even be speaking to Joe? I don't even know. So um I think it's a matter of um opening that those communication lines. That's the first aspect. Number two, um, setting real expectations from the get-go. This is the amount of time it takes me to cook this piece of content, yeah, right? And if you want there to be minimal edits, let's actually now look at the brief. And once I've assessed it, I'll then come to you and say, okay, this, this, and this and that, before I start creating. This, this, and this and that. I'm not sure about. How do we go about this? How do you go about this? Okay, okay, okay. I've sat and I've melt over it, I've thought over it. This is my sort of approach. What do you think of this? Okay, cool. Now I can start creating. Whereas what I've seen is here's the brief, go create. And then when what once the piece is back, it's like, oh no, man. Now I've it's cost me money to do this, it's cost me time. I have a team that I have to pay and all of that sort of stuff. You get what I'm saying? Now we have to go back and edit and all of that sort of stuff, which is also going to cost me money. So it's very important. Well, once the brief is given, then you're able to say, okay, cool. Um actually, I think can't we approach it this way, this way, this way? What do you think of this? What do you think of this? And then once you then are in agreement, then then we we were able to then move forward. Yeah, I think that's that that's what works. And sometimes just uh picking up a call. Hi, I'm about to shoot. I remember we once did something with with with a brand that we're working with. I was like, hi, I'm about to shoot. Um, I'm thinking of this and this and that. What do you think? And you're like, wait, pause. We'll double check. Yeah, let's just double check, pause. We're taking a different direction, or there's something coming, you know. Yeah, we can use that there that but don't include it in the shoot now. Exactly. So so it's always just hey, I'm about to, so are we still aligned? Is this still good? Yeah, and very few times will a client come back and say, This was horrible. We need to, we need to relook at this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And and and I think um um to add to that, sorry, I'm gonna add to everything. No, absolutely um, is it's the co-creation, right? Because no brand and agency don't ever meet and rework any sort of concept that they've come up with, right? They all, but we don't do it with influencers and creators, you know? Like what we've started doing now is we encourage creators to do a mood board. You know, we suggest to clients, let's do a collab between creators. Because I think the other thing that people also forget, I mean, you've got a team behind you, a team that you work with that you can brainstorm with, etc. There's so many creators that all work on their own in silence. So that's also sometimes maybe why they don't want to ask any questions, because they don't want to appear like, oh, I don't know what it is I'm doing. But then at the end of the day, they come back with content that can't be used and they've got to reshoot the entire thing because there's no collaboration, no co-creation, no asking the brand, etc. And I mean, if a brand is working like that with the agency, the ad agency, they should be working like this with the creators and the influencers.
SPEAKER_01I want to add on to that, and I want to commend Joe on this specifically because her team has been so intentional on this. We just have meetings to hang around and just thrust stuff out. Literally, yeah, we'll have a session where we're just chilling over a meal to just thrust stuff out. So I now understand that okay, um, I've got that content creator who's very strong in this, and I want to collaborate with them. Yes, you know, I'm thinking I should be paired with them. And because I now am we're all cordial and we're all sort of familiar with each other, now I'm able to say, actually, um, can't we do this? And also because we're in the same room, I realize Joe is actually not as intimidating as it seems, you know. Um, because on email it sounds completely different than when you see them in person, you know, should encourage and say, Come to me with these ideas, come to me with these questions. What do you, what do you want to know? Because I think a lot of people don't ask because they're like, oh my gosh, they're gonna think I'm dumb. Yeah, you know, whereas now, because we've sat with each other, you know who's strong at what. So I know like if I want something that's gonna go crazy in terms of just comedy, I go to Primo. Yeah, I know Primo's gonna give me something crazy, you know? And if I know if I want something serious, I know who to go to. So it's it's all it's just fostering that that communication process, but also just let's just hang. Yeah, let's just hang. And the pieces that come out, because even while we're hanging, there's pieces of content being shot. Like we you will come out of that room with so many pieces of content, and now that's value for the brand, but that also improves our working relationship as creators, as agency, and as the brand as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I think for me, there's a couple of things there, because my next question was going to be um, what makes a great brief? And I guess from this, a great brief is one that is co-created. Definitely. And uh, secondly, I think we keep going back to this freedom to create, freedom of expression, and now we're landing on this freedom to collaborate as well when you are a brand. But then, you know, sometimes budgets don't allow us, and I you know, I work with brands as well, and sometimes you don't get there.
SPEAKER_02This is where, and I mean we because we know what the state the world is in right now, right? And we and we know that budget cutting is either it's happened already or it is gonna happen around the world, across all categories, etc. Now's the time that we should be collaborating, right? Because we can actually work within smaller budgets if you if you work with someone else. You know, so I I think we we shouldn't say that oh, I can't work with someone because it's gonna be more it's economies of scale. It's like what can we between the two of us? You have a videographer, I've got a videographer. What if you use the same videographer? It's one hour, it it's one cost that we then share. You know, and I think we what we need to start doing more of is collaborating, sure. Cutting down costs, you know, and not to be scared of what that end result is gonna be.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I want to add, yeah, with co-c with co-collaboration and with budgets being cut down, and now this is from a revenue perspective as the creator. Um I do not necessarily have an issue when client comes to me and says, We really don't have a budget for this piece of content, or we don't have a budget for this campaign. But when I think of what the budget was for January, I'm like, listen, I'll give you three. I'll give you three pieces for free because we had a time, you know, because we've been working with each other. And that's why the long-term relationship is so important because now um when you come to me and say there is no budget, you've already you've paid the lights, you've you've you you had me sit, I'm fine. So now actually, I'm gonna do you a solid, you know, because we've been cooking for so long. Don't pay me for this one, it's gonna be a value add. I even say, actually, if you need an MC, because I'm not just a content creator, I can bring in the value add of now. MC, I'm just gonna rock up and I'll do this one for free. It's cool, it's fine, it's a value add. Or I'll shoot this piece of content because I'm actually excited about this. I really want to shoot this. Here you go. And I know what it's gonna do for the numbers, and I know what it's gonna do for the brand as well.
SPEAKER_02And I think that that's important. It's like what some brand and marketing managers miss is that as a brand and marketing manager, I I mean, I still buy um HP Printers, and it was so long ago that I worked there, I still buy Philips products. Yeah, we live and breathe the brand as a marketing manager, right? Sure. The creators feel the same way. Specifically if you've been working on a brand for so long, they really start living the brand. So nine out of ten times, they're willing to create um value-added um uh content or value-added services, you know? So I think it's and and that's where marketing and brand managers need to allow more creative freedom because the return on investment is gonna be a lot bigger than just them answering the question.
SPEAKER_00There's another side to this thing that I often see, and it is that somebody who's a content creator, an influencer working with brands, a lot of the time you tend to see that their profile is just filled with brand work. And sometimes that can tarnish that trust. That can the very things that you've been talking about, the foundations, the relationship, the understanding of the brand, the long term relationship. Half the time you find that some influencers tend to be just working with brand and brand and brand and brand all the time, and it's all you see on their profile. How does that affect this authenticity, these very things that we are talking about, the the long term Term relationship, the all of these things that make these relationships really work and worthwhile.
SPEAKER_02It depends the type of creator that they are. So there are what we call the pluggers. Sure. Right? The summer, the person is going to tell me, oh, you've got to use the this method when you go to this brand, when you go shop at this brand, or these are the savings available at these brands, etc., or restaurants that I've visited, this one is family friendly, this one is perfect for date nine. If it's that type of creator, brands make use of those creators or work with those creators because they want to promote certain promotions that they're running or campaigns that they're running, right? So they have a role that they play. For the every for the creator you use to drive brand love, nine out of ten times they don't have if you apply the 80-20 principle, they don't have 80% brand and 20% content. It normally is the other way around, maybe like 60-40.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And they won't be working with brands that are in the same category. So they won't be working with competing brands for you. So it's it's it's you need to understand the type of creator that you're working with and what their role is, what you're using them for, and then you've got your what we call the always on squad.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_02The guys that is driving the brand love. So it goes back to what is the job that needs to be done by the influencer slash the creator.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And you take it from there, and then you start classifying them.
SPEAKER_00We talk a lot about authenticity. We've been talking about authenticity quite a bit. On the outside looking in, it looks as though brands work tend to work with the same creators chasing numbers all the time and chasing followers, not so much the authenticity. When you advise a brand on one piece of work or another about the content creators and influencers to work with, what do you look at beyond the obvious metrics?
SPEAKER_02Um reach. So reach is never gonna go away, right? Because you want to reach X number of that relates back into what the ROI is. Engagement is key to us, and not just any engagement, it's what type was it a save, was it a like, we like comments? What was the type of comment? Was it positive, was it sent, was it was it a negative sentiment? What did they say? What type of questions did they ask?
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02Um, and then also another key indicator for us is the audience. Who is the audience that you're actually watching? Is it your target audience? If you're wanting to reach with Alfie 18 and below, he's not your guide to you. Definitely, you know, because it's about um you selling cartoon t-shirts, for example. Yeah, you know, or it's not gonna be moms that you're gonna reach, you know. So it's it's it's who it's when you look at, and again, it goes back to what I said earlier: the creator is a conduit. You need to really know and understand their stats and numbers, group them together so that if you're working with five creators or influencers, they are giving you at least your first year, second year of target audience that you're trying to reach, and the average age and also where do they live, etc. So we look at all of that. I mean, it's all one of the reasons when I started the agency eight years ago. We've used a tool since day one. It's the oldest influencer uh measurement tool that we've used since then. It's now bought by by Maltwater, and we still use it today with a multiple of other tools because you know so many tools in the market at the moment. But those um four um measurements have always been key for us and continues to um to be to do that.
SPEAKER_01And that dashboard is so helpful. It is, yeah, because it also keeps the stats. I always go back to that dashboard to say, okay.
SPEAKER_02We must do a new one for you.
SPEAKER_01How have my numbers changed? Who am I speaking to the most? Who am I appealing to? I mean, and I see that with a lot with the brands also that that that approach you. There's a brand that wants to tell a specific story because they've seen your audience, they've seen your numbers, they see the engagement, they aspire to that, but that's not who consumes their product. That is not who people, that's not who um who they attract in a sense. Because sometimes a brand may aspire to a specific audience and a specific market, whereas actually, if you were to actually look, these are the coffers that keep your brand on the shelves and they they keep pulling it all every time they get it. In as much as you want to appeal to that market, these people are serving you the most. So it's always good to also um uh balance that when you create pieces of content to a client to say, look at how I ticked these boxes, and this is what you wanted to see in this piece of content, but look at this little carrot and look at what it's done for us. And that that also shows the brand. Actually, let's consider this. Or even when they brief us, I know we we did something with um, can I name the brand? Yeah, sure, go for it. Yeah, so we did something with Savannah um last year. Was it last year or early this year? It was the the um when we were launching the Steve.
SPEAKER_02Oh, DryCon. DryCon.
SPEAKER_01DryCon was exceptional. I I I saw that in practice. We were divided into different squads. There was a type of squad that was addressing this aspect of Savannah, this type of squad is this that is addressing this key message, this, this, and that. And we were all then segmented. I was with Primo and uh Moshe.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, with Mushe.
SPEAKER_01With Mushe. And there was another team. There was another team. We all produced completely different pieces of content, but our audience was spoiled for choice because now this piece, this is amazing. But wait, wait, wait, did we see that? So it it's it's it's a matter of just understanding your creators and also then pushing the envelope as the creator to be like, I know that you guys brief me to do this, but I had moshe and mosche and primo the envelope, and we did exactly that, and those pieces of content did so well because we yeah, and even beyond the path, so they showed up in character at the event that they were um um um attending that they were posting about, sure, and they were in character at the event and then had the content going live after.
SPEAKER_02So it's all about what is the follow-through, and I mean you ask about authenticity, yes, there's nothing more authentic than an entertaining piece of content. Yeah, if it makes you laugh, irrespective of what it looks like, that's authentic.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_02Because it made me have a nice belly laugh. I forgot where I was, I had to scream with laughter. Yeah. That's the only authenticity can can do that.
SPEAKER_00Coming back to you, Alfie, I think it's the same question, I suppose, for both of you, which is that even without a crisis, sometimes the feedback to brands just isn't positive. It just doesn't land, and the feedback is kind of negative, it doesn't reach crisis proportions, but it just doesn't land. How does collaboration look between agency, influencer, and brand in those instances? Because that's a different kind of thing, right? It's not the success and shooting the lights out, it's when we have to kind of come together and work together to resolve this potentially trending negative mention of this brand that we're talking about. How do you collaborate together?
SPEAKER_01I always say match the energy. If if there's drama happening, feed it. Why not? I I always say that. And but that is because of my marketing background and my PR background, understanding reputation, understanding brand alignment, and understanding what it means to actually tell a true story as a brand and understanding not to panic. You know, just because we are trending for something bad, don't panic. And for me, if we're training for something bad, there's a story behind that, and there's a story that we can we can use that story, flip it and tell it in a different way. So I always say match it, fight the fire with fire, but make sure that you do it with proper guardrails, you know, to say, okay, we're in trouble because somebody posted this. How are we going to attend to it? Literally, I'm known to create a video, we're in trouble because somebody posted something like this. So we're now trying to fix this issue, just be on the lookout. There is gonna be a piece of content literally that literally takes people by surprise because it's a oh, of course you're gonna be cheeky about it, you're gonna be cheesy about it, you know, you're gonna be like that, you know, and it's a we're not in denial, guys. Yes, have us at the head, you know, attack us. Where's your pitchfork? I'm actually there's a special at the shop if you want to get more, so attack us even more, you know, but knowing your audience as well, as to how is that going to land, how is that going to be received, and the type of brand as well. I mean, if an automotive um brand were to be in fire because of something that went wrong, you don't want to come back and be like, oh yeah, our cars are getting recalled, sorry. But um, if another brand that is a comical brand, like Savannah is under fire for something, then you can be cheeky and cheesy with your with your response and how you navigate. So it's it's also understanding the type of brand and the type of creator as well to be like, okay, cool, we're in trouble. Yeah, but we're dealing with it, yeah, and you're gonna love us anyway.
SPEAKER_00Sure. Lean into the drama, uh, Elfie says.
SPEAKER_02I know she's gonna luckily it said don't panic. I didn't panic.
SPEAKER_00So let me let me just finish this thought because because lean into the drama, um, be open and transparent, and these are the things that we hear all the time, but it's not easy being in those boardrooms when it's when everyone's quiet and the CMO has just opened the meeting and now you have two accounts. How how do you address those instances and how do you still collaborate with the same, I guess, content creator who doesn't, who gets that kind of elicits that sort of feedback from from the from audiences?
SPEAKER_02I always go into it with you apologize first and then you fix it.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02You know, you certain things we can't prevent if it was preventable. We've got to own up if it was our fault, and then we've we've got to fix it. You know, I I think we sometimes forget that we we work with human beings, right? And sometimes things go wrong because someone wasn't heard somewhere along the line. Sure. And um someone then starts, the brand starts trending because someone didn't do what they were supposed to do, and then you have um uh a big explosion, and now we're trending for all of the wrong reasons. And I think um um to start off, it's always good to start off with what if we've done well? Um, you know, just to calm people down so that they don't panic, because but everybody goes into panic stations, and then we understand, okay, what went wrong, how do we fix it? Yeah, come up with a solve. You know, nine out of ten times, specifically if it comes to trends, you just wait it out, it'll disappear because there's a there's a new crisis that's gonna start.
SPEAKER_01And in South Africa, exactly.
SPEAKER_02And nine out of ten times it's because someone feels that they were not heard the first two times when they mentioned something somewhere along the line in a meeting or on a call, etc. And now they've they've taken it to the street, basically. But it's it's just you you take ownership and you be part of the part of the self.
SPEAKER_00There's a lot of talk about AI influences and synthetic influences, and of course that opens up many conversations about ownership, about authenticity, about all of these things that we are all concerned about as creators, as people creating content, as people making things that we want to live on. What's your take on a brand using even if it's close to your likeness, your way of creating content, and without you there and utilizing AI in place of you, but with your likeness, because that's kind of in some corners of the internet, that's where things are going now.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I it it it scares me a lot, it makes me nervous, but I always say the some of us that are able to navigate and meander things smartly will always beat the curve and will always stay relevant. Okay. Understanding the concept of AI, how AI is being used, sure is very important because you can't put your head in the sand and go, oh no, it's not gonna affect me. I'm good, I'm authenticity, I've got that on lock, you know, my numbers are great and all that sort of stuff. No, understand what AI is doing, understand what's going on, and and when you find yourself in a situation where you can actually even seed it slowly in your content, why not? That's what COVID showed us. A lot of people went under because they were unable to navigate and sort of think on their feet to say, okay, we're we're in a pandemic. I need to think and I need to execute and move with what is going on currently. And I think that's where my rise came up because I realized, oh, this is this is not working for me. I can actually pivot into something else. Yeah, and now that we're seeing AI, I've I saw it in a piece of content this morning actually, where content creators were posting a video, they were talking about how um winter is coming and you know um people are gonna start asking for cuddles, so just make sure that you're and a short little clip was inserted, it was a three-second clip where the content creators marching with people, but you can see it's an AI piece of content of themselves, so they generate that piece, and I was like, genius, yeah, because yes, in as much as this whole taboo on AI, but you've now been able to seed it into your content so that it's not like a taboo thing. I don't want somebody else repurposing my content without my permission for AI, yeah, but I'm more than willing to use AI to help me push some of my content pieces because there are some shots I'm unable to get. You know, if I were to actually shoot them all, that would be expensive to shoot. But if I am able to just get three seconds, four seconds of that piece using AI, why not? You know, I went so it's it's being manageable, you know. It's it's it's it's it's working with the times and understanding the platforms and saying, actually, I'm going to I'm gonna fight it head on, you know, is that what you guys are doing? Cool, let's let's let's go. But understanding the the parameters around it, just don't use, don't use mine.
SPEAKER_00Um Joline, I want to come to you with a similar sort of question. How close, how far, where are we in terms of potentially starting to use synthetic influencers? Because some brands have already started doing it. I mean, there are some case studies globally that we are seeing where these are synthetic influencers and people know that that influencer isn't a person and they kind of buy into that and they buy into that for a brand. How close are we to that and how is that going to affect the content creator?
SPEAKER_02Um I mean, I one of my favorite case studies from last year was um what Bumble did when they had an AI use an AI influencer. Sure. And the content was absolutely right. Um I think that audiences are quite discernible that they are they know when it's an AI influencer and they know how far they can trust that AI influencers are the same thing as ads, right? I think um not a lot of brands are going to adopt it very quickly. Um I do think that those who do adopt them are not gonna replace them completely because they also understand as we as AI is becoming more of like uh what you come across every day, like 80% of your day, there's going to be a greater need for that. Which I think is like the theme of this conversation. You know, people are gonna want to see less polished, more gritty, more like show me that's really you in the middle of a boat or whatever whatever. Yeah, you know, so so that type of content, there's gonna be a bigger need for that. So I don't think that at right now that it's a big threat for creators or influencers. Um and yeah, it's been interesting to watch to see how they are being used. I mean, there's a couple of AI influencers in South Africa, and yeah, the the adoption rate by brands have been very slow, sure. Um, have been very minimal. I mean, even globally, I was at the 1 billion um summit in Dubai, for example, where the question came, yeah, where the question came up as well. And the adoption rate there has also been very slow, you know, because again, people, audiences and audiences will tell you they're discerning. And they're very discerning and they're very vocal. They will say, stop with this. I would rather watch Alfie than watch your Rebecca. Yeah, you know. Um, so yeah, that I think that at the end of the day, the audience is gonna vote in terms of what it is they want to see more of, or are they then just gonna watch ads? Because that's basically what we survey.
SPEAKER_00Where we're going, yeah. Yeah. So, Jolene, we ask our guests to pass the mic to our next guest by leaving them a question about marketing, creativity, their creative process. And one of our previous guests was AB Muhazan, the CMO of Investec. And the question he left for you was what is the biggest mistake that you've made? And what do you take out of that mistake to teach the people who come after you?
SPEAKER_02Wow, that is an insane question.
SPEAKER_00Dude.
SPEAKER_02Sure. Biggest mistake. I've made no mistakes. Can I leave to that? Absolutely. You know me.
SPEAKER_00Picking on perfection right in front of us.
SPEAKER_02Um, biggest mistake, wow, there's been a couple. I think um if every day I make a mistake.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, be it something I say or how I say it, or you know, how quickly I get back to a client or creator, or how quickly I don't. You know, sometimes I I feel like that was a mistake. I should have actually responded to that quicker, because you know, it could have led to a bigger opportunity, etc. So I don't, I don't see anything as a big mistake. I see it as missed opportunities, maybe. But yeah, I think we make mistakes daily and it's it's a lessons that we take from them. So yeah, there's nothing that I'm I'm a I'm a daredevil. That's why I'm an entrepreneur. So yeah, I don't, you can't think of, I can't wake up today like an oh, that was a big mistake, you know. Otherwise, I'm just not gonna get out of bed.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, I don't firstly, I don't I don't title is it mistakes. It's all about lessons that I learned that I take with me into the next day in order to do to have a better day and to be a better person.
SPEAKER_00Now it's your turn to leave a question for our next guest by uh asking them a question about marketing, advertising, creativity, or their creative process.
SPEAKER_02My question would be what part of marketing do they wish they could focus more on if they had access to more research? So would it be brand, would it be communication, or would it be the pricing of the of the product?
SPEAKER_01Such a hard question.
SPEAKER_02Sorry, that's that's more because uh you can only ask it to another market.
SPEAKER_00Um Alfie, our previous guest who left you a question was uh the CEO of the NetBank IMC conference, Dale Heffer. And the question she left was what's the one skill or responsibility in your marketing team or your work that you believe is too critical to delegate to AI?
SPEAKER_01It's literally one word and the theme of this entire conversation authenticity. Because AI can't give you that. You can't delegate that to AI. In as much as you're telling the story for the brand and you are creating all pieces of content and you're adapting and using AI because I mean it's supposed to make our lives easier, whatever it is. However, you cannot delegate authenticity to AI. AI will never be able to give you that because we know when it's true alpha essence. We can tell immediately, we can see that's that piece of content like that. That is alfie. Uh, I it it happens in some of the most weirdest of ways. Sometimes I can walk into I've once walked into an airport with my face covered with a mask, with shades and uh beanie on, and I Say something and somebody says, Alfie, hi, because we can hear the voice. You know, we can we we it's so distinct.
SPEAKER_02These are the words that you use, exactly.
SPEAKER_01You know, so and AI can't give you that. You could literally give AI the best prompt and say, hey, listen, go and look at everything that you know about I uh about Alfie and and try to produce the way Alfie would, but you can tell that there's just that thing that's missing, and we you can just tell it's just not there. So do not delegate authenticity to AI.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, amazing. Yeah, amazing way of looking at it. And I think that's one of the things absolutely that's that's missing a nuance. I suppose authenticity and nuance are very close to each other. Um now it's your turn, Alfie. What question would you like to leave for our next guest uh by passing the mic to them in relation to marketing, creativity, advertising, or their creative process?
SPEAKER_01With the state of um content creation still growing, right? How are we ensuring that we are still using the content creators that have been able to monetize, but also balancing it with the type of content creators that are not as well packaged as we'd like them to be? And how are we ensuring that we also invite them into the space of content creation so that we can also be able to um allow them to monetize and allow them to also participate in the space because they do have the numbers, they do have the engagement, they do have the followers and all that sort of stuff. Unfortunately, they just struggle to package themselves. You know, you've got a content creator from a Kobo Kobo, a dukya, a limbobo, yeah, who has two million followers, yeah. But when it's time for us to now speak to you from a brand perspective, to be like, tell us this story and you know push this, they aren't able, they don't know what rates are, they don't have a rate card, they don't even have an email address in their bio. How are we accommodating those sort of content creators while we use the likes of Alfie, Primo, Grace Montlani, Banele, and all of those people?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01How do we so how do we to ensure that the space is is is is is leveled for everyone who still has access to all of those opportunities, those resources, and somebody who may not necessarily have the access, the opportunities, and the insights.
SPEAKER_00How do we level the playing field for growth for all countries?
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_02I think you need to invite me back for I want to answer our first question. It's with my festival.
SPEAKER_00We can more than welcome to come back, but also we can do uh we can do a short clip afterwards. So happy to have you back. Thank you so much uh to both of you for bringing you a game and for all of these insights. And thank you for joining us on the lead creative and on that note about authenticity. Do the authentic thing and hit subscribe. Um, thank you so much for watching as well. Um, yeah, and with that, go create content, go do amazing things. This is the lead creative. Thank you.
