113: Dr. Kimberly Flemke on What Really Keeps Couples Stuck After Loss

After stillbirth, grief finds its way into every corner of your life. And one of the first places it often shows up? Your relationship. In this episode, I’m joined by Dr. Kimberly Flemke, a licensed couple and family therapist, trauma expert, and energy psychology practitioner. With nearly 30 years of experience, Dr. Kimberly brings a holistic lens to healing and connection, especially for couples navigating heartbreak.

We dive into what really happens in a relationship after baby loss, how resentment grows, why communication breaks down, and what to do when grief makes you feel like you’re living with a stranger.

Dr. Kimberly also shares tools you can use today to break through disconnection and begin to feel safe, seen, and supported again. Whether you're a mom feeling stuck in your pain or a partner trying to reach across the emotional distance, this episode will help you feel less alone and more equipped.

What You’ll Learn:

• Why resentment is one of the biggest blocks to intimacy after stillbirth
• The first step to repairing emotional connection
• How childhood patterns influence conflict with your partner
• What to do when you grieve differently from your partner
• How to know when to seek couples therapy or additional support
• Why communication shuts down (and how to gently open it back up)
• Tools for creating emotional safety in your relationship
• How EMDR and energy psychology can help with trauma and guilt
• What keeps couples stuck and how to shift the patterns
• How to help children understand and talk about their sibling who died

Resources Mentioned: Coming soon: Dr. Kimberly Flemke's new course for couples- "Transforming Conflict into CONNECTION protocol". Register at https://www.sacredjourneysfortransformation.com/

https://navigatingbabyloss.com/workshop

Free workshop for moms grieving stillbirth or pregnancy loss. Learn simple, trauma-informed practices to release guilt, calm the what-ifs, and honor your baby's memory with love instead of pain. Includes bonus Grief & Guilt Release Journal.

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Download my FREE "Guilt and Grief Release Journal" at navigatingbabyloss.com/journal

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Transcript

 I'm here with Dr. Kimberly Flemke I'm so excited to have her here, Kimberly, why don't I let you say. Who you work with and what your specialty is. Sure. I'm a licensed couple and family therapist. I've been practicing for almost 30 years. I specialize in couple therapy, sex therapy and trauma.

I'm also a reiki master and an energy practitioner, so I'm very holistic in my approach, I am launching a course specifically for couples, helping them transform their conflict into connection. I'm very excited about it. It's unlike anything that's out there.

I'm combining both the best of my field and couple therapy with energy psychology techniques, which are extremely fast in producing results. I've run it now a few times with, clients and the results have been amazing. I'm encouraged 'cause I really wanna help couples who get stuck 

I've been practicing almost 30 years there are. Things we can't do in therapy, but I can in a course, I used to be a professor for many years in the department of couple and family therapy. I'm bringing the best information to people because I believe couples need more information to build healthier relationships.

Oh my gosh, you are so right. it is the hardest but most important relationship. Right. And there's no manual. And It's so easy to just isolate yourself within the relationship. Yes. And I think, being able to take those conflicts and, Have tools to turn 'em is gonna change lives.

The tools are the game changer. They really are. Because it's one thing to wish that you could ask your partner a question, but it's another to actually know how to do it. That's the truth. when resentment starts to build, it's like a brick wall.

And so one of the first things I do with couples is try to take down the bricks, if there's not emotional safety, you're never gonna feel able to take the risks necessary to become vulnerable and open up and ask the hard questions and share your feelings. Well, I love that you brought resentment out first because that is probably what I hear from my clients, is the main problem in their relationships after they struggle through a baby loss 

They are resentful that, he gets to just go back to work. He didn't have any of the physical changes. people aren't looking at him and judging how his grieving is going, and he grieves, but not in the way that I grieve and that makes me mad. what would you do if you were feeling that kind of resentment, what's the first step to.

Start getting that connection back. I think your niche, is so important. There are so many women that go through these experiences and have no one to talk to about it. And in the relationship with their partner, if the partner is not grieving the same way and likely they're not.

That does create resentment it makes you feel even more alone. I think grief is one of the most misunderstood experiences in a relationship because it can take on different forms and then the partner may personalize it and they don't understand. It's really fueled by grief. So if you could use that lens.

So back to your question, I would recommend having someone to talk to. Possibly a professional or even just journaling. Journaling is a cathartic way to get out the pain that is building up. I think of a, a hot water tank. You know, you sometimes just have to turn the valve before it explodes.

So just like even writing daily, everything that's coming up is like releasing some of that pressure. I love that because it's gonna come out one way or another, I teach my clients to do brain dumping. 'cause I just think. I mean, I'm not a great one to just sit with a journal but for some reason, making lists and writing out what is actually on my brain, no matter how random and crazy it is, it does really help.

in addition to that, I will have my clients do a free write. I'll say, let's start with this sentence. the reason I hate my partner right now is dot, dot, dot. for 20 minutes, you just keep writing. You don't cross your T's. You don't dot your i's.

it has a way of accessing parts of your brain to let out things you guard against. Just let it out, rant, let it all out. when you're done, it just helps you feel like, Ugh, I can breathe again. Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, you're right. I think it does, it has you accessing these parts of like, why am I worrying about this?

But it came out on the paper. Exactly. No judgment. Just let it out. So what do you think Keeps people stuck and keeps people from communicating. Like is it the lack of having the words to say or is it something else? That's a great question.

There are so many ways to answer that question. Obviously not having the tools to know how to articulate in a constructive way. We all know how to do it destructively, right? We all know how to fight.

We all know what that looks like. When it's done. You're dealing with the aftermath and then you don't even know how to come back to it. all of us are imprinted by our growing up experiences. it's impossible not to be. there's. Research that shows, there's therapeutic models that show, like as a child, the theory is you come in as a blank slate.

we're imprinted by the parental dynamics. And how they interact with us. And then subsequent research suggests also by how they deal with our siblings. That all imprints us. later in life. We will find a person who is unconsciously familiar to what we know, and then you pick up where you kind of left off.

And all those not so healthy patterns often emerge. And it's not to blame anyone, it's just that's what you know. And so a lot of the work is learning how to make the unconscious conscious so then you can make more of an intentional decision how I wanna react. The biggest game changer for me is learning how to self-regulate, because we all get triggered, but if you don't know how to just calm yourself down just for a breath it can go really sideways, quickly. So learning how to just breathe and be reflective because when we get triggered, the front part of the brain goes offline. I always say to couples, if it's heating up one or both of you just say, time out. research shows at least 20 minutes before the brain can go back to a place where we can communicate again, reflect on your actions, take responsibility.

when we're in those screaming matches, nothing is getting solved. Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. As you were saying that, I was flashing back to my own childhood when my husband and I have an argument, I do turn into that teenager that stomps away and doesn't speak you go right back there because it's so familiar. Does not solve a single thing. It just keeps perpetuated. it just feels, like an instant reaction. You can't even think about it. So 20 minutes. 

When things get heated, 20 minutes. That's great advice. And then what do you think, when you are in a period of grief For instance, And. You're both tiptoeing around each other, who is responsible for opening up the line of communication? that's a good question. Obviously the burden is on the couple.

When I have one client, which is a couple, I don't see two people, but in regards to your question, I think whoever needs to share something needs to be able to open that up. sometimes it's hard if it doesn't feel safe enough. If you're expecting your partner to shut you down 

You're never gonna do it. So it's important that you both, set parameters for what safe space looks like. When can we talk, maybe we touch base, once a week talking about where we're each at. then you have a pulse of your partner because when you're thinking one thing, your partner's feeling the other, you're missing each other.

That's great advice too, because when you're hurting, when you're in the middle of a hard season Lots of times if you're feeling like there's an issue, maybe you're the one who needs to initiate it, then. Because when we make the assumption, the partner's, the mind reader, you're setting yourself up for a lot of disappointment.

lots of times I hear from my clients, they'll say things like, I haven't asked them because, we just don't talk about it a lot. even from my own experience, he didn't want me to get more upset so he didn't bring it up.

So I wanna comment on that. That is one of the most common things I see. I hate to make gender specific, generalizations. But this is the most common. you know the stereotype men like to solve problems. And the reason I believe is because. men are very uncomfortable dealing with something they can't fix.

And that triggers an overwhelming feeling of helplessness. if a man could learn how to self-soothe that anxiety 'cause they don't know what to do and just be present, being present to a person's grief can be so healing. You don't need to say anything, just hold them, hug them. Just be present. that is the understatement of the year from my audience. I am sure of it. Yeah, because they feel like they need to say something to make it better and, I don't, my husband, I interviewed him last week for my podcast he kept saying over and over, no matter what I said, it didn't make you feel better.

And I was like, oh, there was nothing you could, no matter if you had the most profound right. Thought it was never gonna make me feel Better. So just know that and let your partner know that it's okay. you don't have to say something to, to make me feel better. 'cause you just can't.

You can't. And then that way their anxiety can start to go down. They don't have to fix it. And just to be emotionally present, like presence is so important. When someone is grieving, just so they feel supported, they feel heard, they feel understood, and you don't have to say anything. Just being there.

Yeah. What about the difference in grieving? I mean, how do you know when to worry? When to, get therapy? Couples therapy, if you just. Are not seeing eye to eye on the way you're grieving, or even that maybe one person in the couple wants to try again to have another baby and the other one doesn't.

I think any significant loss is a reason for extra support, and that's how I frame therapy.

It's just support. It's hopefully an opportunity to give you more tools to help you manage what's coming up. There's no silver bullet. with grief, it's always recursive, You make two steps forward, one step back. You never know when it's gonna pop up again. You think you're making all this progress.

Then all of a sudden you're triggered and you're hysterical again. So there's no judgment on the journey. It's just allowing yourself. To experience what needs to come up because you have to feel it to heal it, release it, and let it through. Emotions are transitory. they're not intended to last forever.

They just tell us that there's signals, something's going on inside. Yeah, that's so true. Talk to me about EMDR. I know a lot of my clients are looking into it. They're curious about it. What are the benefits and how, tell us a little bit about how it's done. I love, love, love. EMDR. I got trained in EMDR almost 30 years ago.

so EMDR, the acronym stands for Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing. We now know that acronym is irrelevant. But the way, that I remember the story of how it came about was Francine Shapiro, who is the founder of EMDR. I believe she was in her doctoral program. And for whatever reason, this is how the story stuck in my brain.

She was walking through Central Park and she had just gotten diagnosed, with breast cancer, some bad news medically. as she was walking through the path. her eyes kept going back and forth and she noticed that she would start to calm down the more she kept thinking about the upsetment of being diagnosed with, cancer, her eyes kept going back and forth and she would feel calm.

And so that turned into her dissertation of studying the eye movements, which now, 35, 40 50 years later, we know it's not necessarily eyes, it's anything bilateral. Bilateral stimulation. You can do like this, Now virtual, you can tap like that, but we have two hemispheres of the brain, the right hemisphere, the left hemisphere.

We know the right hemisphere is where we hold most of our emotion. The left is more logic and reason. Whenever there is a trauma, it's unable to go from the right side into the left side, and that's what EMDR does. The lingo is it metabolizes it, right? So you are never gonna forget your trauma, but by the time it goes from here over to here, you're gonna see it much more neutrally.

And EMGR is amazing how it corrects the distortions in our brain. I never get bored doing EMGR ever, because I'm amazed at how the brain will produce these things with clients, unbelievable results. It's miraculous. It's really one of my favorite techniques. And Important in trauma too, right?

Because it's not, oh, yeah. Go away. It's one of the most, it's one of the most effective trauma treatments. Yeah. Like this experience is not leaving you. No. Where do you put it? But I wanna say something about that. Mm-hmm. You can't. E MDR is not designed to get rid of grief because it's a natural process to loss.

However, if you have extra baggage layered onto it, like guilt, it's your fault. You did something that would help clear that up because it's not true. And grief is a natural process which needs to run, run its course. But yeah. So I just wanna make that distinction because that's MR is not a, it won't save you from the sadness, but it will help you process anything, distort it.

Which is great to know. Because I think a lot of people are like, I gotta get EMDR. That'll make it all better. no. but it'll make some of the symptoms better. Like that overwhelming feeling that it was your fault. Or that you should have done something different.

And all those cognitive distortions begin to correct themselves in the process. And that is priceless. once you let that stuff go, you can start sleeping better. You can start breathing easier. That's when you are able to step into the new person that you are since you're lost.

what do people need to know that you think they don't know? what's the big secret about couples therapy? That if everybody knew about this thing. Everyone would be in therapy. You are the perfect segue for me, to tell you about my program because I believe this wholeheartedly, and that's why I'm saying it's not out there.

when you are consistently hooked in conflict with your partner and we all argue about stupid shit, but when you have those main arguments and They just keep Coming up. Over the years. I can guarantee you it is linked back to a limiting childhood belief.

And it's always about ourself. when we perceive something, then we try to write a story about it. And I'll always say to my clients, what is the story you're telling yourself right now about your partner? Because what we tell ourselves becomes our reality. Whether it's really true or not.

if you can learn to clear those beliefs, and I like, I'm an energy practitioner, I do a lot of tapping in EFT, you clear that, you see that's not true anymore. You're not gonna get hooked in your conflicts anymore. And it dramatically shifts the dynamic of a couple. So interesting. And that's what you're gonna tackle in your course?

Yeah, that's the main focus in the beginning, and then we start laying all the big foundational pieces for building a really healthy relationship. Amazing. I will have all kinds of links here when you have it ready?



, You, a couple's marriage, family counselor, what are your thoughts on talking to older children about the death of their. Their sibling who they've never seen, they only imagined what they would be if they're old enough to understand that. Is it something that you recommend?

We do. I know I did it, and I was thankful that I did, but I know some of my clients are reluctant. Probably for the same reason that we don't talk to our partner enough about it. We don't want them to become upset or have thoughts about something they can't change.

Yeah, that's a really great question. for me, and this is more personal than clinical, I can't imagine having that conversation with a child if I didn't have a spiritual framework I don't know what I would say to a kid. About your sibling is gone. I don't know.

Like I think it's much easier to frame it for a child, like, you know, your brother or sister, they were coming, something changed and now they're waiting for you in heaven or something like that. So it's more of a peaceful association versus something that's traumatic.

I'm not saying that's the only way I just, don't know of another way personally. I always encourage my clients to talk about the baby and to remember them.

that's nice. You know, just even every now and then say, oh, I wonder what the baby would think about this TV show or whatever. Just even in general conversation. I think for two reasons, because it helps them remember. It helps them not have those feelings of like, Ooh, I don't dare to say anything to mom.

Yeah, baby. It's too taboo. It'll make her too upset. Yes. and my boys were good about. Asking questions, not always at the right times. sometimes it was hard, but they would ask questions and I thought that was such a gift to have someone else remembering them. Yes. I think that's really nice.

And I've had other clients where they will, do a little ceremony on their birthday. like let some balloons go just a way to remember them as part of the family, Or maybe include their picture in a family picture or something.

so things like that, as in your professional opinion, are not harming children? I don't think so. You know, I always start with the genogram. I explain to clients it will seem like a family tree to you. But for me it's a clinical tool and it helps me track patterns and I get to see you in a bigger context.

So when I go through the family tree, I'll always ask, were there any deaths Stillbirths any miscarriages because it's funny how sometimes it can actually affect a child without speaking about it. They won't know why there's this, void, and they just know not to talk about it.

And so when I see it on a genogram, it helps give more context and understanding if that was a part of their situation. It's such a legacy. exactly. And for as discounted as it is in society, it runs deep. It's such a tremendous loss that it just doesn't get enough press.

So many women go through it. it's a part of her and it's now gone. Like, you build up all these months of excitement and joy and then it is devastating. What do you say to the women who are. they've lost their zest for life because truly there is a very measurable line of who you were before this happened compared to now.

what could a woman do? Like lots of my clients struggle with their career. they don't wanna go back to work anymore. They don't have the passion for it anymore. Right. You know, they're friends like, and, and a lot of times they think it's something wrong with 'em. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're right.

I hear that too. if it can be reframed as this is an opportunity for you to rediscover who you now wanna be. You will never be the same. You will always be changed from this. It is a forever long experience. Who do you wanna be from this? it might cause a shift in careers.

Like you're not gonna probably care about the stupid crap you gave, you were so worried about before. You have different perspective. So it's really, I think, a great way to go inward, doing things you never did before. Maybe you try meditation, yoga, different ways to access things inside that have not been developed yet.

I love that. I agree. It is such a profound shift, but it's not always bad. it gives you this amazing perspective in life of what is really, truly important. That's exactly right. women, who don't go through this may not have, and not that we, not that I recommended, but it's right.

It definitely does shift you into focus. What's important. And it gives you permission to just decide that's how I'm gonna spend my time now. 'cause the rest doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't matter. So is there anything else that you think, would be important for stillbirth moms to know 

Coming out of this, going through the motions, trying to rediscover who now since their loss and dealing with their relationships. I think an invitation for therapy is when you feel stuck in your grief.

When you feel like it's not moving, then it's really important to reach out for more support. I think in general, the studies I've read about grief, you know, it's that first year, which, you know, it's just. You're a train wreck, but it still takes another year before you start to feel like you're back to yourself.

So I think being patient with the process is really important. I'm not gonna feel like my old self for a long time. And that's okay. That is great advice because you're right, it is at least two years.   then we start judging ourselves. So give yourself the time. This is going to be at least a two year process and that's okay. just really give yourself permission. That's great advice.

And in addition to that, having the partner understand that timeline because if he or she is trying to rush it, that will cause resentment because they're not able to do more than they can do. You are showing up the best way, you know how, and they need acceptance and patience and understanding.

Oh my gosh. That, yeah, because so often, especially if you have other children People are like, you should be so thankful Yes. You're so thankful you already have two children. And. It's not fine. No, it's not fine. people think they're saying the right thing or meaning well, and the stuff they say is, oh my God.

For days, I could talk about it. Yeah, I'm sure you could. It's shocking some of the things that I hear people say how have we not evolved in this? We're so sensitive about so many things that we say now, but we still feel very helpless dealing with grief.

I mean, it's one of the most taboo topics. No one wants to bring it up. 'cause they're afraid that, that they're having a good day. I don't wanna bring it up. And I always say they are thinking about it all the time. You don't have to avoid the topic. You can ask how they're doing, how are they feeling about that?

Because I promise you, it's on their mind. they're just masking it for you. But you have to get through that feeling of anxiety and feeling helpless. Like you don't know what to do with their grief. You don't have to do anything with their grief. Just show up. Just extend some care. Yeah, 100%.

everyone in the world needs to be taught that for sure. Well, Dr. Kimberly, thank you so much. Oh, you're so welcome, Jen. This was so fun. I love spending this time with you, and I cannot wait for your course, it's gonna be Thank you. So, so important because. We need more tools of everything in life. 

life is difficult on its own without having support and help from people who have been there and have effective tools to help you. So I'm so grateful for you and the work that you're doing, and thank you. 

I mean, I'm so sorry for the tragedy and trauma you've gone through But what you've turned that into now is so beautiful because you can connect with these women in a way that other people can't, they desperately need more people supporting and understanding their journey. So I'm grateful for you.

Well, thank you. it is a unique,  experience that I think sometimes has to be lived to be understood, so thank you. So true. I'm very honored to do this work. I'm sure it's a privilege, right? That's how I feel too.