Calf Immune Status

This time Conner Smith, Product Lead for Diagnostic & Ruminant Specialist, Bimeda and Rachel Hayton, Vet & Research Lead, Synergy Farm Health join the team.

Like usual we start with both their backgrounds, to get them to where they are today with their respective businesses.

Then we move on to today's topic of Calf Immune Status, and more specifically the development of the ImmunIGY Bovine IgG Test.

We discuss how the idea of the test came about, how the product was developed from the original concept, with some dead ends along the way, to being the product it is today, available for all to use.

We don't just discuss the ImmunIGY product though, we discuss the implications of the results and what this can mean for you on farm.

This was recorded in September 2024, and all information was correct at the time of recording.

For more information about our podcast visit www.chewinthecud.com/podcast or follow us on Instagram @chewinthecudpodcast. ChewintheCud Ltd is also on Facebook & LinkedIn. You can email us directly at podcast@chewinthecud.com

Transcript

Andrew Jones 0:11

This is the June the Code Podcast, a podcast for the UK data industry, brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. Hello and welcome to the Junior Code Podcast. My name is Andrew Jones, and with me today is Sarah Bolt. How are you doing, Sarah?

Sarah Bolt 0:37

So today I'm pointing out I always answer the question the same, but actually I'm really good at thank you, Andrew. How are you?

Andrew Jones 0:43

Don't worry about it, because I usually have at the start of a conversation the same consistently, yeah, no, I'm alright, I'm alright, you know. Obviously, we've had a little bit of rain uh as we recalled it, so you're green things out of uh obviously we'll have to wait and see where it goes from here.

Sarah Bolt 0:59

Definitely the the rain dance as well.

Andrew Jones 1:02

Looks like we're talking about the weather again.

Sarah Bolt 1:04

It is. But there was something else that I was gonna mention with the farming equipment and technology fund. That one has just reopened and well worth a look if you're uh looking to buy some things, whether that's animal welfare or various things. All on the government webinar.

Andrew Jones 1:26

All these things are worth a look. Definitely, definitely. But I mean uh I guessing technology, I guess is what we're here to talk about today. But to be honest, we're talking very much about the immunity um uh testing uh for IGGs um on uh from calf closer. Um it's a very interesting episode, isn't it?

Sarah Bolt 1:53

It is, I love it. I mean, obviously you don't feel uh one of my uh passion areas anyway, but yeah, it's a very interesting uh development really, and I think really useful.

Andrew Jones 2:03

It is, I mean we've been sort of teasing for uh in a couple of intros or podcasts and little data going, oh we know the answer, but we don't want to tell you, we don't want to spoil it, and when you I I totally forgot what the actual amount was. But when you listen back, and I guess it ties in that little bit, we did earlier in the year on antimicrobial recording and dropping music.

Sarah Bolt 2:22

When you hear how much red IGG says from management reduces and anti-closing Exactly, it's a it's it's a good easy on the farm tool.

Andrew Jones 2:52

Um there were ways of doing it before that was a little complicated. Relatively easy, it can be done on the farm yourself. I think it's amazing that they can use the result. Well, I think we mentioned meaning that people just need to at least try 10 and see where they are. But anyway, we're we're spoiling the podcast before we get there. So, yes, so I hope you enjoy. Uh let's go talk health immune status. This podcast has been brought to you today by TuningThe Cud Limited, who offer independent advice for dairy and beef nutrition, cow signals advice and training, along with ROM's mobility scoring. For more details on these and other services available, please visit our website www.tuningthecudder.com or email us direct on nutrition at tuning the cutter.com. Farmer, advisor, processor, and everyone else, we have topics and episodes that will interest you. We discuss the practical and the technical aspects of different UK dairy industry topics that aim to make you think about what you're doing and ask yourself, can it be done differently? Listen to a speak with specialists from inside and outside the industry about their area of expertise. Subscribe and listen to episodes for free on your favorite podcast platform or sign up on our website www.tunethecud.com. Get the podcast notifications so you never miss an episode and links to our socials, including our Instagram at TuneTheCud Podcast, all one word and remember no g or email us direct on podcast at tune the cud.com. If you like what we do, please share and leave us a review to show your support, and that's it. Enjoy today's episode. And uh today, as we've already mentioned, we're going to talk about calf immune status and getting it right. So our guests today are, and this is a bit of a mouthful, so let me apologize if I get it wrong, uh, Connor Smith, product lead for diagnostic and rumant nutrition specialist at Bymeda. Hello, Connor. Hello, good morning. And also Rachel Hayton, who is vet and research lead at Synergy Farm Health. Good morning, Rachel.

SPEAKER_05 6:06

Good morning.

Andrew Jones 6:06

I hope you're both well. Um, so we are here to talk about uh, I guess the uh I've got to get this right. I'll get it right by the end of this part. No, I can't. Connor, can you tell me what we're here to talk about?

SPEAKER_00 6:18

We're here to talk about immunity bovine IGG.

Andrew Jones 6:22

Immunity. That'll that'll do. We're here to talk about immunity. You can laugh, Rachel. It's fine, it's not a problem. Sarah had to put up with trying to get carbon sequestration, right?

Sarah Bolt 6:31

It was almost a sequestration moment there, Andrew.

Andrew Jones 6:34

I know, I had to have it written down to be able to say sequestration. So we're still we're at that point still with me, so by the end, we'll be alright. So, anyway, before we get on to that, Connor, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where we are today.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Yeah, so as mentioned, my name's Connor Smith. I work for Biomedia UK. Um, background-wise, I've got quite a dairy strong background. Um, I've come from what I like to term as very humble beginnings. My career in agriculture started when I was at the humble age of 13. I got a job washing milk bottles on a local dairy farm, and um within about a week I was asked if I'd like to have a go at milking the cows, and I suppose you could say the rest is history.

SPEAKER_03 7:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Went off to college at the age of 16, went off to Recife, very naively thought I would do a diploma and live the rest of my days farming and live happily ever after. But sort of just as I came to the end of the diploma, that was when I started to think thinking this is um this is getting quite interesting now, and I was sort of hungry for more, so I went on to do a bachelor's degree in dairy herd management and agricultural business management, and then sort of over the term of that course I had an increasing interest in animal health, and that's what led me to do a master's degree in ruminant nutrition at Harper Adams University. Yep. I finished that degree, went back to managing a dairy herd for about a period of one or two years, and it wasn't long before I was poached to come into industry, and subsequently I'm sitting here as a representative of Bimader Animal Health. That's fair enough. Um Rachel, what about yourself?

SPEAKER_05 8:03

Uh yeah, so I I uh graduated as a vet from Edinburgh in 1993 and went into mixed practice as we all did back then.

SPEAKER_03 8:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 8:14

Uh really enjoyed it but loved the farm work, and it wasn't long before I just went into farm animal only practice.

Andrew Jones 8:22

And that's what synergy is, is just farm, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 8:24

Synergy's farm animal uh veterinary practice, yeah, in the southwest of England. And um I've worked as a clinical vet for about 30 years. The last few years I've been leading our research programme, which has grown uh to the extent that for the last two years that's that's been my full-time job. I've been research lead at Synergy, and I'll actually no longer um practising hours of routine fertility visits, no longer do any of that, just running research.

Andrew Jones 8:54

Do you miss it?

SPEAKER_05 8:55

I thought I would.

Andrew Jones 8:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 8:58

Um I miss it sometimes, particularly when our vets are talking about the doing do and the live.

Andrew Jones 9:05

Yes, because vets have all got stories.

SPEAKER_05 9:07

All got stories, and and so I sometimes feel a little a little sad that I'm not part of that.

Andrew Jones 9:12

And we've all got stories about vets too.

SPEAKER_05 9:17

Those stories still persist, yeah. Um, but actually, the I think the job that I do now, I I could never have imagined uh that this would be where I'd end up, and I do feel very privileged that I I get to do some really interesting things, and I feel as though I'm making a difference. So um yeah, I think we can't all do everything all the time.

Andrew Jones 9:38

Yeah. Well, I should say this this podcast came about because um uh well I'm not sure if you've heard them yet when this goes out, but uh Neil and I both went to the Butilar Open Day back in the beginning of the year, and uh one of the things we saw there was the uh the immunity. Immunity, thank you. Immunity, I will get it right. The immunity being demonstrated on farm. And I I went up on the first day, rang Neil up and said, I think you won't go and have a look. And he went the second day and came back and said, We need to do some podcasts on this. So off just that one day we've you know got three podcasts, which are great. But the immunity, see, I got it right that time. The immunity um is it just looks such a great piece of equipment. And when you said what it is, so I know it was done in could uh in collaboration with uh Butelar and what's come out of it. So where did it come from? Probably more Rachel. This would have started this part of the story, I'm guessing. How did it come about for you then to go on and then how when did Bimeda come into it to come to where it is? Now, what it should, I suppose we ought to briefly say what it does ultimately is it it tests the calf to see how well how what the colostrum management's been like to then know what their um uh immune status is further down line. That's a basic outlaw. Is that what you'd say what it is?

SPEAKER_05 10:55

It it measures it's a calf side test for IgG, which are um a particular sort of antibody that calves that calves have in their bloodstream, and um the majority of IgG comes from maternal colossal.

Andrew Jones 11:10

Yep, okay, so so people at least know what we're talking about, we'll get more into it because I know butylar made some comments on the day about what they've seen from it. So I guess Rachel probably starting with you. How did it come about? You're you guys must be doing work with butylar, and then what made this develop?

SPEAKER_05 11:24

Um so originally it came from a need to um find out what what was a predictor of success in calves arriving on a rearing unit.

Andrew Jones 11:35

Because they're getting in what, 10 days old usually?

SPEAKER_05 11:37

They they arrive between about two and six weeks of age. Right. And they come from a variety of of dairy farms. Um, there'll be the beef um bread um beef cross beef from the dairy farm. Um and the existing tests for um for colostrum can only really be carried out in the first week of life. Okay. By the time this calf arrives on the rearing unit, it's really too late. It used to be too late to assess what what the colostrum management was.

Andrew Jones 12:06

What were the original, what were the existing tests at a week then?

SPEAKER_05 12:09

So the the the affordable tests are are actual indirect tests, so they're they're looking for total protein. Right. And because it's an indirect test, once you get over a week old, there are too many other factors.

Andrew Jones 12:22

Variables, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:24

So it's really only a good a good check in the first week. But the um the immunity test um tests IgG. So it's a much more specific test, it's also um uh uh qualitative, so it gives a number.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 12:39

Quantitative, that's what I meant. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 12:42

So um it it it began out of this idea of how do we how do we uh work out um which which calves have had a good start when they arrive on farm. And it that was a collaboration between between um Adam Butelar and actually my husband, Alistair Hayton.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 12:58

Um and he sat down and thought, right, how how how can we make a really quick, affordable calf side test that will answer this question?

Andrew Jones 13:07

So there's no point having a test that takes, I don't know, huge amount of time and effort to do it. It needs to be quick and easy, basically, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_05 13:13

Absolutely, and and actually in the first instance, he wanted to make a salivary test.

Andrew Jones 13:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 13:19

I thought that would be really simple and quick and easy.

Andrew Jones 13:22

A lot quicker and easier, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:23

Um and Alistair approached um Joe Dunbar, who who runs uh Soma Bioscience, who actually works with athletes.

SPEAKER_04 13:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:32

And he he he produces diagnostic tests which help athletes to know uh when they're going to perform at their best, when their immune system's under stress. Um and uh And I have one of these tests. Get in touch with him. He works with a variety of kind of athletes, sporting teams, footballers, boxes. Really fascinating guy. And um they did a they did try and develop this this test for IgG in in calf saliva, but unfortunately.

Andrew Jones 14:03

So what time period is what how far back are we going for this?

SPEAKER_05 14:06

Oh now you're asking, I'd say that would be two or three years ago.

Andrew Jones 14:09

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_05 14:10

Um but unfortunately saliva wasn't a reliable way of measuring it. Um so then they they looked at blood and discovered that actually um you could you could make a really good lateral flow device measuring IDG.

Andrew Jones 14:24

And we all know what lateral flow is these days.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

In definitely say as somebody who works in sales, it has made life a lot easier.

Andrew Jones 14:37

So COVID had a positive for you then comment.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

It's just a bad memory supposed as well.

Andrew Jones 14:45

So so yeah, you you worked out then the lateral flow is the way to go. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 14:49

Yeah, so they developed um it's actually a competitive Elizer, we get lines, but we don't just have to look at the line as a little cube reader which gives you then a numerical reading, right? Which tells you what the IGT level is like.

Andrew Jones 15:01

Uh so that's okay, so that's reading the lines effectively for you. Right, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

I mean, the example that I always give, you'll probably recall when you had COVID, when you were really at the height of it, you'd get a really intense line test. It's the same idea. So a COVID test would be a sandwich assay, and this is what we call a competitive assay. In simple terms, that means it works the other way around. So the weaker the line is, the better the IgG. But as Rachel says, you're then just dropping what's effectively a chromatographic reader, which interprets the strength of that line, and that's directly proportional to how much IgG1 has been detected within that blood sample.

Andrew Jones 15:38

So you've developed the test.

SPEAKER_05 15:41

I'm guessing at this point, then that's when Connor and Bimeda come into the loop, or yeah, we um we were lucky enough to get funding from Innovate UK. Okay, um, and we ran a validation on on the um test against um a laboratory uh gold standard Eliza.

Andrew Jones 16:02

And we've also Which I'm guessing it would be more cost, more uh time, all of these sorts, and give you the same result, but just be a lot more.

SPEAKER_05 16:09

Absolutely, you'd have to send take the sample, send it away to a lab, wait for the result, and it's expensive.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:15

Um so we we ran the validation using Innovate Funding, and then we also um sampled um about 1700 calves and have been following their performance and um correlating their IgG level with their performance.

Andrew Jones 16:30

Performance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:31

So that's been really interesting.

Andrew Jones 16:33

Um we've found and with beef cattle you can get that result quicker, can't you, than dairy cattle, to be honest with you? Because usually you're you're slaughtering them by what 18-24 months, you know what they've done, run dairy cows, you wait until three years really before you know they've done their first lactation, they've done what they're supposed to.

SPEAKER_05 16:48

Um because it's it's an integrated beetle, I've got an integrated beef supply chain where we're able to follow them all.

Andrew Jones 16:54

All the way through. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 16:55

Um, but we've been we've been um uh uh looking at um antibiotic use um in these calves and the um difference in antibiotic use between the lowest and the the highest is absolutely astonishing. So we've we've we've seen that when there's um an inadequate level of IgG um we get 40% higher antibiotic use.

Andrew Jones 17:17

40%. Yeah. I mean I know it's huge. It is, I know it was mentioned on the day because you you're involved with the microbial report with Kingshay.

Sarah Bolt 17:25

We are at Kings Hay, yes, we look at uh antimicrobial usage and looking at the REMA.

Andrew Jones 17:30

But I mean I I certainly something was said on the day that we know that we use less antibiotics and that they're healthier, they do better, but 40% that's huge.

SPEAKER_05 17:40

Absolutely. Um we didn't see very much difference uh in mortality, it has to be said, but then the the unit that we're looking at has very low mortality. I think if we looked at it on a and this is one of my goals going forward, is to look at it at it on a unit with much higher mortality because I think then we would see differences.

Andrew Jones 18:01

Because let's be honest, that that research farm at um that beauty that habits, just everything that that is their focus, isn't it? Try and do everything they can right and and do a good job of it.

SPEAKER_05 18:12

Absolutely, absolutely, and that is the result of hard work. Yeah, they have very low mortality.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

I think it's it's sorry, fair to say that that makes the results more impactful, the fact that they're a unit that they're completely on top of everything. And really, in terms of seeing high antimicrobial usage or even reductions in daily live weight gain, you wouldn't necessarily expect it of a unit of that strata. So it it really does just hone in what an impact the IgG status of these cars are.

Andrew Jones 18:40

As you say having it'd be interesting, like you say, Rachel, to put it somewhere, I'm not trying to disrespect anybody, but doesn't achieve quite the results that they are achieving at that farm to see what a difference it might make.

SPEAKER_05 18:51

Absolutely.

Andrew Jones 18:52

And how how sorry Sarah, how late uh how late can you use this test?

SPEAKER_05 18:58

So we found uh it was predictive of performance up to if if we did the test up to six weeks old. Over six weeks it wasn't predictive.

Andrew Jones 19:08

Right, so it can be used up to six weeks old.

SPEAKER_05 19:10

Yeah, absolutely. We've got different cutoffs because the IgG level in calves does naturally wane as you get older.

Andrew Jones 19:18

You'd expect that, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_05 19:19

Yeah, absolutely. Uh so the cutoffs are lower in in calves between two and six weeks. And we're still looking, you know, we're we're we're constantly researching that, and I think we'll we're gonna with there's lots more still to learn.

Andrew Jones 19:32

Keep tweaking it basically. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:35

And we also found um that there was a there was a relationship with live weight gain as well. So the the the calves with the lower levels did um have poor live weight gain. But it wasn't as quite as marked as the antibiotic figures.

Andrew Jones 19:50

No, but even if you just take that 40%, that's just huge.

Sarah Bolt 19:54

The costs, the the implications to the consumer and everything else, I think, and if there are still positives on the live weight gain, and I think sort of that's what I was going to ask us to sort of thinking about why do we need to understand the immunity and you know what are the costs of that in within um sort of the the supply chain and what are the costs of not getting our colosterum management right? I think is is something that we we really need to put a figure on it to really understand. And I think you know, just highlighting the difference in antibiotic usage and possible live weight gains as well on a on a good unit, as you say, the the skies are probably uh the limit on on other on other units.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

So I think one 100% agree with that, and I think that's that's a lot of the impetus behind what we're trying to do as a company in terms of getting that awareness. As in why should I be testing my carbs? Why would I want to lower the instance of failure of passive transfer? And the reality is that it's because it carries such a huge cost bearing. I think you know, me, I can talk as a when I was a naive 16-year-old going off to college, you're told about the importance of of passive transfer of immunity and how it's sort of integral for those first few weeks of life. And I I always recall taking this naive view of oh well, you know, if you get the calf through those first couple of weeks, you're fine, man. But the reality is you're not. The the impacts are then there with the with the calf for the rest of its life.

Andrew Jones 21:24

Yeah, I mean, when when you look at um is it AHDB work, isn't it? On how many is it something like 20% of first lactation animals don't get through to second lactation and and and all of that. And I mean, I know I was at I've mentioned it before, but I was at a conference in the summer, and Alex Back was there from is it University of Barcelona, and and his comment about well, well, if they're real, you might as well just knock them on the head now. Effect okay, I'm I'm just you know, I mean, giving an um abridged version, but basically knock them on the head now because they're the calves that usually don't make it through to end of the second lactation anyway. So take that loss. So it's it is so important getting everything right. I mean, I guess we've touched on it. When we spoke to Laura Tennant about milk powders and stuff as well. But you know, it's well, even before you seem to put a first milk powder in front of it, you've got to get the colostrum in that animal to to get it right. And I mean, I know but are now paying a little bit, aren't they? If if if they're if they're if they've got the better colo IgG results, they're getting a bit more for the calf. Is that right? Not yet.

SPEAKER_05 22:21

It's been talked about.

Andrew Jones 22:21

It's been talked about.

SPEAKER_05 22:22

I I think it's the first time that calf bearers have been able to get a handle on which are the best quality calves because when you can look at it with hindsight, you know, but there's a there's they've actually got um the ability to predict now, and so that's that's quite powerful. But I think it's early days with us working out exactly the best way to use that information.

Andrew Jones 22:46

I'm I'm guessing every calf is tested as it comes on site.

SPEAKER_05 22:49

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, and we're now moving into um the next phase is we're doing an intervention study, which means we're going to try and manage those calves differently to see the ones that don't have the good status. We're looking at separating them out because uh it's possible that they're the ones that start the disease outbreak.

Andrew Jones 23:11

Yes, because they're they're lower to start with, they catch it first and then it spreads to the rest.

SPEAKER_05 23:16

So we we're even you know interested to see whether the the the calves with good status are actually healthier when you remove the low calves.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:24

We're looking at differential management, things like maybe a little bit lower stocking density, uh enhanced milk feeding regimes, this sort of thing. And we're also looking at different um thresholds for when you might start to integrate antibiotic treatment. Because normally when you're rearing calves, a certain number of calves get sick, you might treat the whole group. That's that's metaphylaxis.

Andrew Jones 23:47

Which is what I believe they do, isn't it? Is it one three in a pen of ten, then they'll treat the whole group?

SPEAKER_05 23:51

So we might have different thresholds for the ones that we already know are high risk.

Andrew Jones 23:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:56

We're going to sort of um look at all of those interventions and see if we can in effect overcome the disadvantage that those yeah, trick treat them slightly give them how do I put it a bit more TLC to maybe get them through the system a little bit better. And certainly to to um uh uh pay pay for the cost of testing, if you like, so you actually get a cost benefit because information's one thing, but then turning that yeah.

Andrew Jones 24:20

I mean you you mentioned that. What is the cost?

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Well, well, I mean, so that's that's a very nice handoff there, Rachel. So um and in terms of bearing a real sort of assessment, the the latest one we've got, unfortunately, uh, was conducted in 2016. So there was a matter analysis that was done, I think it was a French study, yeah, and they determined an approximate cost for every case of failure of passive transfer. Yeah, we've got a cost of around£50 in dairy animals and around£70 in beef animals. Right. But what I always emphasise is that that doesn't begin to scratch the surface because I know for a fact that Greg and Rowan won't mind, but I'll use pick stocks as an example. Um, George Pert from Promar, who's working with them, he's he's effectively worked out that because these carves with failure of passive transfer are taking just that bit longer to grow, yeah, that's already an additional cost of£78 a head and feed.

Andrew Jones 25:15

Well, well, it isn't the best way to make money in beef is to turn those animals over as quickly as possible.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Exactly. And then we we've got other studies, you know, going back as far as there's one in 2005 that that looked at the differences and what we're seeing in culling incidents and milk yields and the significant trends and that you can be losing a thousand litres by the time you get to second lactation. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely, between calves that's the cumper value of passive transfer and ones that didn't. Right. I mean, there was talk at Dairy Day whether it's true or not. I don't know of us getting up to around 45 pence per litre again. I mean, if you think, you know, a hundred uh a thousand litres at that, that's a significant cost. That's without taking into account anything else. Um, so it's always important to bear that before I give you the real answer, which is the test.

Andrew Jones 26:00

But it but but you are right though, isn't it? It all of this comes back to say it comes back to what we talked with, Laura and all of that. It's all about getting it right. And and you know, so much work has been shown that you know, your best feed conversion is when they're at that young age, when they're effectively still a monogastric and you're feeding them milk, you know, all of these things, it's really put that effort into getting it right as a calf because then it follows. I mean, I've no I've done some sums in the past and um had recommended a particular milk powder and uh blunt is energizer and uh uh recommended it to somebody, and we did the sums, and yes, it had a higher headline price, but you actually, because of its feed rate was slightly different, you actually fed less of it. So in they were only having to buy three ton rhymes, three and a half ton to do other cars, which actually worked out cheaper. So it's not just about the headline price, you need to look at that, and then I would argue the benefits something like that brings. As I said with Laura, you know, I quite I like Energizer a lot and I'm I'm quite open about that. Um, but it is it's getting that calf right, and if getting it, as I say, even before you put the milk powder in front of it, you've got to get that colostrum transfer right, and that makes a huge, huge difference.

Sarah Bolt 27:10

I'm gonna throw one in the pot as well that I'm sure that figure doesn't increase doesn't include increased labour costs of you know all of that extra time of dealing with sick animals.

SPEAKER_04 27:21

Yes.

Sarah Bolt 27:21

Um, you know, that that affects people's motivations and everything else. You know, we've just been speaking to both RSM people's office, but um, and and it's thinking about how all of those things impact the staff, impact not to just be sick animals, calves, whatever, they always take the time, don't they?

Andrew Jones 27:38

And that's what you you want to be avoiding. I mean, I know it's an extreme case, but I remember the story any other day when I was in Australia. I heard a story of a large dairy in Australia that as they're carving a cow, they had to use a calf jack for whatever reason. As they're carving a cow, the calf team are already there bagging the calf with colostrum. Now, you might argue that's a little bit too early because the calf isn't fully out of the cow at this stage, it was still in by the hips, but they were straight in, and that was their protocol that they they did it, and people need to do that if they're not, and and I suppose there is a uh we've now got a way of measuring that to show how well the it's been.

SPEAKER_05 28:15

And an aspect actually of this test that we haven't raised is that there's a novel way of taking the sample as well, right? Which is a lance just to the nose. So it's a little a little pinprick, um, and it means that um farm staff can take the sample. Yeah, it doesn't need a vet or whoever to do it. It does need a vet, um, and so a farmer can actually get the kit and take control of the colostrum management and assessing that um that colostrum management. So that's quite an appealing uh way of doing it for dairy farmers as well. Um, and it's an interesting psychology, but I remember when Tag and Test became a thing for D. And I think there was a whole um sort of section of farmers that like to be in control of their own stuff, yeah. And they engaged with Tag and Test in a way that they had never engaged when the vet had to come out and do the sampling. Yeah, definitely.

Andrew Jones 29:11

Yeah, yeah. And you've been avoiding it, Connor, so let's go back to you now. Well, from what I've been told, it's not too bad. So, what is the cost?

SPEAKER_00 29:21

So there's absolutely a clear return there. But so this is as Rachel says, you know, farmers can do this task themselves, so it's openly marketed to farmers. You it's as simple as going on to the BuyMeer website or the immunity website, and you can purchase a kit straight from there. Um but it comes out at about£9 per car tested.

Andrew Jones 29:40

Yeah, the initial cost it's the um It's the cube reader. It's the cube, is what the initial cost is, really, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 29:46

There's always the additional option to have your vet doing the testing, so yes, it might cost a little bit more, but they're then putting the outlay of that cube reader.

Andrew Jones 29:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But so you can buy a cube yourself, but otherwise, we let's say it's under a tenner. Yeah. Under a tenner for it. Well, given what we've already just said between ourselves here, what's a tenner of cuff? I realise it's a cost to anybody listening to this, but when you look at the benefits from that, surely that's what's got to be important.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

And that's the thing, you know, there was a trial done over in the States and they went on just short of 400 dairy farms, and they simply asked the question, do you IgG test your calves? Yes or no? Now, for those farmers that said no, we don't test our calves, subsequently they took blood samples, and for the ones that didn't test, nearly 20% were succumbing to failure of passive transfer. Right. Whereas for those farms that were proactively testing, they actually found that only 2.8% of those calves succumbed to FPT. So, in summary, the way to lower the incidence is to test.

Andrew Jones 30:44

I mean, as I say, because of this, are suppliers into butar doing things differently off the back of this?

SPEAKER_05 30:52

That's a good question, actually. I think um sum and some is probably the answer. I mean, I think it's early days for that. I certainly haven't started capturing it yet. I have been um benchmarking them by percentage at you know, low, medium, high.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:11

Um, what you do with that information is sometimes quite sensitive, actually.

SPEAKER_03 31:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 31:16

Um but I I agree with Connor. I think knowledge is power, and if if you don't have that information, you can't do anything about it.

Andrew Jones 31:22

Well, you've got to quantify things before you can do something about them, haven't you?

unknown 31:25

Definitely.

SPEAKER_05 31:26

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

And I think ultimately this is the conclusion that the industry is coming to. You know, we're looking at mortality rates and carbs over the past ten years, and we're we're seeing very little change. And there's always been this big, big push on cluster management, you know, the three Qs and it was the five Q's, and we all know about it, we've all heard it, but I think not and bolts have it as if you're not quantifying, you don't know. If you drop the ball, you're blissfully unaware until you've got a pan of calves at three, four weeks old, and all of a sudden there's a scowl outbreak or pneumonia, or you know, but by then the horse has bolted.

Andrew Jones 32:00

I was gonna say, if I'm Mr. Dairy Farmer, I listen to this, I decide I want to go and test 10 calves. Let's say I decided to test 10 calves to see what I do. If I got the results, I thought I was doing a good job for argument's sake, I was measuring my colostrum, making sure they got two litres, whatever your protocol is. If I'm then finding that I'm not getting the result, I thought I was getting, I guess it's probably more aimed at you, Rachel. What should I be doing?

SPEAKER_05 32:26

Um I mean, I I think at that point it's worth a conversation with Yuvet. Um, but I can I can give a sort of bit of an overview. Obviously, it's all about the first 24 hours for that calf. It's the first feed as sit as early as possible.

Andrew Jones 32:40

Ideally, first six hours.

SPEAKER_05 32:41

Absolutely, first six hours, four litres, it's got to be good quality colostrum, it's got to be clean, um, not contaminated. Um, and preferably the evidence shows followed up by a second feed a few hours later.

Sarah Bolt 32:55

And I think on that, Rachel, that we've been seeing um a different um sort of what's best practice as to levels of um sort of bricks and the like that it used we always talk about sort of 22% bricks being quite a good a good level, and and that seems to be sort of creeping up to sort of 24% and everything else. And I think that it's it's just that um fine-tuning, and actually a test like this can really help us fine-tune.

Andrew Jones 33:22

Should I sorry something controversial in here? Alex back basically went, Don't bother testing your colostrum.

Sarah Bolt 33:28

Oh, yes, of course. And why was that? Because I'm I'm intrigued.

Andrew Jones 33:32

I think it was basically he goes, Well, everybody's cluster's right anyway, so why do you waste all your time doing it? I think that was again, I'm summarising, but effectively that's what we said, don't waste your time doing when it's so easy with a bricks.

SPEAKER_05 33:42

Why wouldn't you? Yeah, I mean, I think um that we do see farms that have got disappointing colostrum quality, and that can sometimes be be addressed.

Andrew Jones 33:53

Um, it can be a nutritional issue for arguments saying it can be.

SPEAKER_05 33:56

I mean, I it's it's usually as simple as when when do you actually milk milk the animal, but yeah, um it's not always as simple as that. And so, and and also I think if you've got lower quality, you can compensate for it with quantity.

Sarah Bolt 34:10

You can feed more, it's that it's that full amount of IgGs you're getting in. And I've always been one of those that says, actually, if you know what it is, if it's only 17, give that extra feed and do something about it. It's knowing knowing where you are to be able to make that difference.

SPEAKER_05 34:27

I'm not sure we agree with that advice then, do we? I don't know.

Andrew Jones 34:32

It doesn't matter, it's the whole point is a discussion, isn't it? You know, people listen and make their own choices.

SPEAKER_05 34:37

Well I've come across people who who are very traditional in their approach and and just leave it to nature, and then when you do the monitoring, everything's hunky-dory. Great, fine. If you if it's not broken, don't fix it. But if you don't know, you don't know.

Andrew Jones 34:54

Well, yeah, I know, I I know from my experience I didn't sort of used to bother, and it was like, oh, you think that calf sucked, oh, and then it just became right. No, that's it. Every calf, as soon as it's born, two litres, and then we'll follow it up with another two litres, and and it it made a difference, definitely. You certainly didn't weren't getting those. I'm not saying got a huge amount of losses, but you suddenly lost that calf and you went, that calf didn't suck it right. I'm taking that um nature, I suppose, out of it. I'm going to ensure that every calf gets given colostrum.

SPEAKER_05 35:21

Um one of the uh things that's coming out of our search is the fact that this is not a sort of black and white, it either got enough or it didn't. Right. What we're finding is that the higher the level, the better these calves do as well. So I think our whole approach to this is becoming more more um nuanced, and and if if you if you're measuring it and you think you're doing all right, if you know what your average level is and how many calves are in each category, you can still do better, and the calves will do better as a result.

Andrew Jones 35:51

Which is interesting, definitely. So, like you're saying, is if you sit even if you think you're doing everything right in terms of bricks and all of and and liters and all that, you still think it's probably worth not buying a cube, but doing it through your vet in that case, just to do 10, just to see where you are and and and can things then be improved going forward?

SPEAKER_05 36:08

Yeah, absolutely. We are actually doing I suppose it's not surprising, is it, but we're doing quite a lot of the testing for our clients. Yeah, we're encouraging them to take the samples. Sometimes our vets take the samples, sometimes our clients do. And then we've got, you know, obviously, if you're going to be a high user, then it's it's a no-brainer to your own.

Andrew Jones 36:26

But when you say you're dooming your that clients taking around, how long have they got between taking them before they've got to be brought in to be tested?

SPEAKER_05 36:33

Yeah, it's pretty good actually. The the the samples are stable for for at least a week.

Andrew Jones 36:38

Oh, so a good a good amount of time then. It's not like it's got to be a couple of hours or something.

SPEAKER_05 36:42

You put the little capillary tube into this buffer pot.

Andrew Jones 36:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 36:45

Once it's in the buffer pot and properly mixed, it's stable for for over a week.

Andrew Jones 36:50

Oh no, that's really so that again makes it relatively easy to for you to take it and then next time you go into town or whatever it is, take it to the vets.

SPEAKER_05 36:57

Yeah, and do them in batches.

Andrew Jones 36:59

Yeah. No. Definitely, definitely. Oh well. So, Connor, where's it going from your point of view?

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Uh tremendously well. Well, um, we're sort of just coming up to our first year in business now. Um, but the response from the industry's been fantastic. I mean, myself and Rachel were fortunate enough to be at the Cream Awards last Thursday.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

Uh, we picked up highly commanded in the innovation category earlier in the year. Well done. I got the pleasure, thank you very much, of um going to meet the Princess Royal. Yeah. We won the Royal Innovation Award down at Dairy Tac as well. Yep. We're also up for a British farming awards, and um yeah, I think really all of that it just comes back to the fact that I think the industry is recognising that there's been a long-standing need for this type of test, hence why we're getting such a positive reaction.

Andrew Jones 37:45

Well, so it's been very positive, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_05 37:47

Yeah. Connor's colleagues now refer to him as the award winning.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Now multi-award winning as well, I might add.

Andrew Jones 37:57

Oh, we've got to have a bit of fun, haven't you?

SPEAKER_00 37:59

Yes, I've definitely been covered.

Andrew Jones 38:03

So, I mean, Rachel, you said you're still tweaking this going forward, and you I mean, I guess you've already spoken about something, but where do you see this going?

SPEAKER_05 38:11

Um so I I get really excited. I I'm always looking at the next next thing on the horizon. And one of the things that I think the scope for, you mentioned um the earlier finishing is nearly always the answer.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 38:25

And I think some of these animals are they're not going to be as profitable as as their healthier counterparts. And actually, historically, they they stay in the system longer, they take longer to finishing. If you could identify them, you could you'd actually finish them sooner. They might not look as great.

Andrew Jones 38:45

Yeah, you might start them sooner, get them moving.

SPEAKER_05 38:50

I'm quite excited about this idea of transferring information with a calf and you can do that maybe in an integrated chain in a way you can't, in a in the more sort of traditional fragmented system. But I st I'm really keen on that that notion, and it's just you know, being a little bit smarter about the way we do things and using the information to make us more profitable, as well as obviously to go back and provide these issues in the world.

Sarah Bolt 39:15

I'm gonna put one in there as well, or not just more profitable. We're thinking of carbon footprint. Well, the longer on farm sustainability is really gonna be it's gonna have that big impact, and I think that's that's something we really need to be thinking about.

SPEAKER_05 39:27

And we already know, you know, that that if you want to lower the carbon intensity of beef, finish, you know, it's usually finished quicker. But for these animals, absolutely.

Andrew Jones 39:36

That's a really interesting idea, actually. That you you they might let's say you I don't know, you put them in to finish at 500 kilos, you might put them in at 450 because you know they're never gonna get there, so right, we or they're gonna take too long to get there because of that status, health status. Well, then we push them in the system quicker and then get them to get them through quicker.

Sarah Bolt 39:55

And are we even looking at sort of different markets at the end then in that case? You know, are we gonna segregate them far earlier on for different markets?

SPEAKER_05 40:02

I've been funnily enough, I've been talking to colleagues on the continent. Um, you know, the veal producers are very interested in this, and they're even talking about, you know, exactly that determining which animals go into the veal system and which go into the slightly slower system based on what their predictive health status is. But there's uh there's like I I that's sort of one end of it, it's quite an extreme end of using data, but it's really interesting.

Andrew Jones 40:28

But it's it still sounds like we're very much the beginning of the journey of potentially where this could go in terms of we've got the data, it's now how we start using that data to to make the beef industry more profitable, more sustainable, however it happens to be.

SPEAKER_05 40:44

Yeah, absolutely. And that I think we've it's funny because we've been talking about colostrum for such a long time, haven't we? And we've it you know, you could be mistaken for thinking it was all done and dusted and in the bag, but I think there's so much more to learn, even into the the nuances between every every category from low to high, what are the real thresholds? We've been talking about below 10 and over 10 for so long, no one even thinks about it. But I think there's a lot more to the threshold, and there's also a lot more to um us learning about that journey of a calf from when it's born and what happens to its IgG levels as it goes through those first few weeks of life, um if they get ill or if they don't get ill, but anyway, watch this space, we'll come back and we've got these answers.

Andrew Jones 41:33

Are you finding uh calves if even if they get ill and they've had good IgGs, are you finding they're responding quicker, getting healthier quicker?

SPEAKER_05 41:44

So all the data on on calves with with good IGGs is that they do better.

Andrew Jones 41:49

They do better.

SPEAKER_05 41:50

I mean you can always find an individual.

Andrew Jones 41:52

Yeah, yes, yeah, the outlier. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:55

The studies on that all in agreement, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

Yeah. I mean the cost bearing again, because you know, it's I mean, it's plain and simple. I spend a lot of time talking to vats about this, but I always summarise by saying, well, it's plain obvious, isn't it? If you've got lowered immune status, you're going to succumb to disease. If you succumb to disease, there's a cost bearing with that.

Sarah Bolt 42:16

And and is it going to become, you know, sort of the the beef industry is so reliant on our on the dairy industry for, you know, for the calves, the sort of non non-dairy carves aren't perhaps um, you know, sort of as profitable. Um and dare I say it that beef carves have always been sort of class as second second class citizen, really, on dairy farms. But actually, um, you know, is this going to help um dairy farmers perhaps get a better price if they treat them a bit better at that uh that early stage?

SPEAKER_05 42:49

Are they sort of I do hope so? It would be nice to see a system where where best practice was rewarded. Definitely. Um, and I think those relationships are forming now. Uh I think there's a lot of work has gone into that in recent years from dairy farmers producing a calf that the market wants, which is really important, and then um you know more integrated systems springing up that actually are saying what they want and well it was definitely interesting.

Andrew Jones 43:16

When I sat, Neil and I sat down with um it was Jade from Butilar, and I can't remember the young lady's name from Morrison's apologies to her. But what came out of it is we need dairy farmers. This doesn't work without dairy farmers. We need dairy farmers to have the beef cross calves to then go into butilar or whatever system it happens to be, or not, um, but we still need those beef cross calves, which means we need dairy farmers.

SPEAKER_04 43:42

Absolutely.

Andrew Jones 43:42

And say to be and I I'll be I'll be honest, I was probably guilty of that, Sarah, and the fact that to me a beef calf was I just wanted to hit the ground, make the cow car as long as the cow carved easily, hit the ground, I just want it gone as quickly as possible. I I wasn't interested in it, it was just uh yeah, second class citizen. So I I hold my hand up and say I was definitely guilty of that. I didn't know I didn't wouldn't say I wouldn't try and give it colostrum, but you still it didn't get the same attention then as the hypha carbs.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Yeah, I mean it it's almost the elephant in the room, isn't it? But you know, it comes back to what Sarah was saying. I've met some very passionate carfrearers that are very aware that these are being treated as second-class citizens, and yeah, and ultimately the the whole primary aim of this is to improve animal welfare. You know, if a if an animal's then predisposed to getting on more frequently, the reality is it's going to suffer.

Andrew Jones 44:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, outside of beauty, con and what's the reception being on farm from people that have tried have used it on farm?

SPEAKER_00 44:33

Yeah, no, fantastic on farm. Um, I mean, to be fair, I mean obviously Rachel can detest this, but it is really slick, it is just so easy and it's hard to get across through a microphone. But when you see it in action, I don't wish anybody to go on the website and at least see a video of it in action. It's really fast. I was catching up with um Chris, and I know you won't mind me saying from Stowell Farms up at Dairy Day this week.

SPEAKER_03 44:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

And I said, How's it going with the testing? And he said, Oh great, but it's costing me a fortune. Why is it costing you a fortune? He said, Well, because I've got a young girl that does the calf management and I've promised her£20 for every calf that comes back of a she's now doing a fantastic job because she knows these calves are getting tested, and if there's a great result there, she's got a bonus, and I think that's great. You know, if we can replicate that a bit more, that's not a bad thing. You know, there's never really been that sense of urgency or need to get it right, I think, sometimes. And it's so easy to get caught up in a lot of the mundane day-to-day stuff and forget about these things, but they're so vastly important.

Andrew Jones 45:33

Yeah. Well, as the whole well, yeah, as you say, it comes down to profitability, sustainability, welfare, it all just comes back to getting that right start. And this is an you could argue, do we need it because this should be being done right anyway? But the point is just now quantifying whether it is being done or isn't being done, so we can now say that. And as we've already said, Beautlar are talking about um uh uh offering a bonus, aren't they? Like you're saying, Chris is offering his calf. I can't remember, it's not Peyton, I can't remember.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

And certainly pet stocks likewise, you know, looking to do the same thing. And for us, that's always been the big thing. It's not a stick to beat the farmer with and say you're doing an awful job, it's a carrot on a stick to say here's an incentive for doing a great job. Yeah, because it benefits both parties. Exactly. I think for the calf rearers, they're probably conscious that when these calves come in that haven't been adequately managed, they then bear that cost. And of course, we talk about carbon as well, and you know, in terms of the bigger picture, it's it's best for everybody, it really is.

SPEAKER_05 46:30

And when when we're looking at antibiotic use, um, you know, the car rearing sector where you've got calves coming from lots of multiple sources at quite a vulnerable age. You know, that that is probably the outlier in the cattle industry um in terms of antibiotic use, but this really does give us a tool to get on top of that and bring it down. And I and I I'm you know, and I'm that I don't even mean that as a criticism, I think it's inevitable. It's been a really important model that's been created that that solved the problem, but we've still got to just fine-tune it and get it working uh optimally.

Andrew Jones 47:03

But I mean already, as you say, you're uh very much at the start of the journey, but already some of the results you're saying, I mean, I'm still staggered 40% loss in uh not loss, sorry, 40% reduction in antibiotic use for those calves that had the good IgGs. We were quite surprised when we saw that, but we've we've it's been replicated since oh I'm sure it has, as we wouldn't be quoting it, would you, let's be honest, but it's still a staggering amount.

SPEAKER_05 47:30

Yeah, totally, totally. And um, I mean we I should say that they they try and avoid group treatments where possible, um, and so we we can see those um figures very well because of the majority of antibiotic treatments on this unit are given on an individual car basis. It's awesome, isn't it? It's absolutely awesome. Yeah, totally. These are the things that make my job exciting.

Andrew Jones 48:02

Well, undoubtedly, because you you know you get a result like that. If you can turn around and go, well, to the industry, if you are doing this and you we can prove there's a 40% reduction in result uh in use in antibiotics, we should all be waving our flags and and going and running for it as quickly as we can. Or not actually running for the test, I should say maybe it's another way to say, Well, not again beat the stick, but you know, you we need to be doing a better job of our colostrum because look at the difference it's making. It's just now we can quantify it.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

Yeah, it's so tangible when you do make that difference.

Sarah Bolt 48:34

And shouting about it outside of the industry that you know we are doing our bit to reduce antibiotic usage, and you know, we need to be shouting about that even more.

SPEAKER_05 48:43

And it's am I allowed to give a pluck for the medicine? I think you should. I think you should, because that's our way of shouting about antibiotic use, yes.

Andrew Jones 48:52

Well, I mean it is the the UK's massively reduced them, haven't they, compared to some other countries? We've massively reduced antibiotic use in the last put it five years or something, I think it is.

SPEAKER_05 49:00

Yeah, totally. I mean it uh I think we we are a uh a a good news story and there's a lot of good work going on and and it's gonna get better, but we've gotta we've got to be able to talk about it and in order to do that, we've got to collect collect that as a country and report it.

Andrew Jones 49:16

Well, hopefully people listening to this will go Yeah Medicine Hub Medicine Hub Medicine Hub No, not Medicine Hub, the the the whole immute is a good thing alongside that. Oh no, that's fantastic, that's fantastic. But um, Connor, do you think there's anything else from your point of view?

SPEAKER_00 49:39

No, I mean I think that fairly well covers it, but I will summarise by saying I think I've come up with a title for this, and um, it probably should be getting the basics right because I think that's what immunity is all about. It's getting the basics right. If you don't get the basics right at the start of that calf's life, it's never going to grow into the animal that it would have grown into. And I'll I'll use Jenny Sherwin's analogy that we shamefully stole when she did a webinar for us uh back last year when we launched. Yeah, she gave the analogy of bee larvae, and the way she described it was that with bee larvae, when you've got ones in natural low sugar levels, they're the ones that subsequently become worker bees.

Andrew Jones 50:16

I know the one short I heard Georgina say use it first, actually.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

Why not use it? It's fantastic. And the ones with high sugar levels, they're your queen bees, and it's the same reality with colostrum. I mean, we've even had some pedigree breeders that are sort of using it to gauge replacement decisions as well, because whilst you can have something that you know on paper it it looks great in terms of looking at the internal progenies and oh wow, this is going to make a fantastic dairy count.

Andrew Jones 50:40

Well, I suppose genomics are there as well. I suppose it's another tool, isn't it? To go. It's not there.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

And what's been shown is that you know, cluster management is having the ability to switch genes on and off, and sadly, we're we're not ending up with the animals we perhaps should have ended up on because of some simple management.

Andrew Jones 50:55

Well, we're all getting into epigenetics and everything else now when we started talking about that, aren't we? Say that that's a whole different ball game.

SPEAKER_05 51:02

We've got another hour. But actually, the effect of colostrum on epigenetics massive. Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew Jones 51:11

Well, exactly. If anyone knows anyone can talk about epigenetics, I'm quite happy for them to come on here and talk about it. Because it's it again, it's a new thing that most people don't know a lot about. Yeah, it's a huge thing. Um, Rachel, any more thoughts from yourself?

SPEAKER_05 51:24

Um not really. I think I think uh we just we just did uh start a whole new topic there, which is about the magical properties of colostrum. It's not as simple, it's not actually just about the IgG. We use the IgG as a marker, it's got all sorts of uh substances that massively impact um the health of the calf and its potential to fulfil its genetic potential later on. So yeah, it's it's a big area.

Andrew Jones 51:52

Get your colostrum right, and then get your colostrum right into your calf and then take it from there.

Sarah Bolt 51:59

Yeah.

Andrew Jones 52:00

Sarah?

Sarah Bolt 52:01

The costs of not getting it right. I think that's what we need to remember. The costs of not getting it right far outweigh the cost of immunology. Yeah, you know, yeah, it's as simple as that. Have I just done an advert for binding dogs? You better clip it. I'll take the payment later.

Andrew Jones 52:22

Oh dear, I think that it's it's probably time to wrap it up, but uh, I should say thank you very much to both of you. It's been absolutely fascinating and interesting because I say, well, I caught a bit on the day just to talk about it here in more detail, and hopefully people listening to this will take more from it. And really, the message isn't any different from whether we spoke when we took to Laura, or probably you said Rachel, we've been gone almost 10 years, get your cholesterol management right. The point is now though, we can quantify by not getting it right what that's doing, whether that's lower daily live weight gain, whether that's the thousand litres of milk, or whether that's simply 40% reduction in antibiotics when we do get it right. That uh that's gonna stick with me, that one. Definitely. So, on that, I guess it's time to say goodbye. So it's a goodbye from me.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

Goodbye. Goodbye from me. Thank you very much, goodbye from me.

Andrew Jones 53:15

Thank you very much, everybody. Thank you for listening to the Tune the Curta Podcast, a podcast of the UK dairy industry brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. And now for the really boring bit, I'm afraid, the legal disclaimer. The information provided during this podcast has been prepared for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. The information must not be relied upon for any purpose, and no representation or warranty is given to his accuracy completely or otherwise. Any reference to other organizations, businesses or products during this podcast are not endorsed with the recommendations of tunic unlimited. The views of Andrew Jones are not limited.