Are Genomics Working?

What does the UK's third-highest PLI Holstein herd discover when they test every calf born on their farm? Stuart and Helen Rogers of Longmoor Farm reveal how genomic testing transformed not just their breeding decisions, but their entire approach to dairy farming.

When the Rogers family moved their pedigree Holstein herd from Oxfordshire to Dorset in 2011, they wanted to push their genetics forward. What started with tentative use of genomic bulls evolved into a comprehensive strategy where every calf born gets genomically tested at birth. The results challenged their perceptions of which cow families were truly valuable. "The cows that you forget about in a herd are actually your really good earners," Helen explains, "the ones that aren't lame, don't get mastitis, and just do the job without you even worrying about them."

Their seven-year strategy of using sex semen on high-ranking heifers and first lactation animals while directing beef semen to the rest has yielded remarkable results. Their fertility performance outshines most farms with pregnancy rates consistently between 34-38%. Cell counts hover around 70,000, and their antibiotic usage has plummeted to just 5.6mg per PCU—about a quarter of the UK average. Perhaps most impressively, they've eliminated fat supplements from their diet while maintaining 11,500 litres at 4.5% butterfat through pure genetic selection.

For farmers considering genomic testing, the Rogers' advice is straightforward: commit fully rather than dabbling. At approximately £22 per test, the investment quickly pays dividends through improved decision-making. "It's so little money in a lifetime for a cow," Stuart notes, especially when you consider the compounding benefits across health, fertility, and production. Whether you're managing a pedigree or commercial herd, their experience demonstrates how embracing genomics can create a more balanced, resilient and profitable dairy business.

This was recorded in June 2025, and all information was correct at the time of recording.

For more information about our podcast visit www.chewinthecud.com/podcast or follow us on Instagram @chewinthecudpodcast or X/Twitter @chewinthecudpod. ChewintheCud Ltd is also on Facebook & LinkedIn. You can also email us at podcast@chewinthecud.com

Chapters

• 0:14 Introduction to ChewintheCud Podcast
• 3:50 Meet Stuart and Helen Rogers
• 7:38 The Journey into Genomics
• 16:35 Testing the Whole Herd
• 29:23 Fertility and Health Improvements
• 34:14 Adapting to Your System
• 44:07 Sex Semen Strategy
• 51:30 Technology and Data Management

Transcript

Andrew Jones: 0:14

This is the ChewintheCud Podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry, brought to you from the southwest of England and listened to around the world. Hello and welcome to ChewintheCud Podcast. My name is Andrew Jones and with me today is Sarah Bolt. How are you doing, Sarah?

Sarah Bolt: 0:39

I'm great. Thank you and you Andrew.

Andrew Jones: 0:40

Yeah, not too bad. Not too bad, all excited. 

Why are you excited, Andrew?

It's July and it's a Wednesday. It's a Wednesday. Yeah, not too bad. Not too bad, all excited. Why are you excited, andrew?

Sarah Bolt: 0:47

It's July and it's a Wednesday. It's a Wednesday, it's not a Thursday.

Andrew Jones: 0:49

No, it's a Wednesday, that's right. We've moved now to a Wednesday and that's our regular day, moving forward for year four, and it's year four.

Sarah Bolt: 0:58

Year four, a whole new season A whole new season.

Andrew Jones: 1:06

Episode 50 is creeping up. That's really exciting. Who's who's the 50th? I'm not telling, but but we have a nice little. We have a nice little journey in front of us, um, starting with today's episode on uh genomics and um the benefits that has been seen on farm. So from that we will then progress on a few others that originally hadn't realised. There's a nice little journey there. So hopefully the next few episodes people will enjoy and it will show some progress along the way.

Sarah Bolt: 1:33

A bit of a theme as we go through the next few episodes A bit of a theme, definitely, definitely, definitely.

Andrew Jones: 1:37

So onwards and upwards, as they say. So on to today's episode. So I hope you enjoy and, yeah, you so out into today's episode. So I hope you enjoy and, um, yeah, you'll hear from us again soon. This podcast has been brought to you today by chewing the cud limited, who offer completely independent dairy and beef nutrition, our signals, advice and training, along with roms mobility scoring. More details on these and other services available, please visit our website, wwwtunethecudcom, or email us directly on nutrition at tunethecudcom. Tune the Cud Limited now offers first aid training from a registered first aid at work trainer and experienced minor injuries practitioner. For more details, please visit our website, wwwtunethecudcom, or email us directly on training at tunethecudcom. Hello, I'm Andrew Jones and I'm Sarah Bolt, and welcome to the Tune the Cud podcast, a podcast for the UK dairy industry.

Sarah Bolt: 2:47

Farmer, advisor, processor and everyone else. We have topics and episodes that will interest you.

Andrew Jones: 2:53

We discuss the practical and the technical aspects of different UK dairy industry topics.

Sarah Bolt: 2:58

We aim to make you think about what you're doing and ask yourself can it be done differently?

Andrew Jones: 3:03

Listen to us speak with specialists from inside and outside the industry about their area of expertise subscribe and listen to episodes for free on your favorite podcast platform or sign up to our website, wwwchewingthecudcom. For podcast notifications, so you never miss an episode and links to our socials, including instagram.

Sarah Bolt: 3:24

Chewing the cud podcast. All one word and remember no g or email us direct on podcast at chewingthecudcom if you like what we do, please share and leave us a review to show your support. And that's it enjoy today's episode.

Andrew Jones: 3:50

Hello and welcome back, and today we have two guests with us. This is the first for us. We have a married couple on the podcast, so welcome to Stuart and Helen Rogers. How are you both? Very good, thank you.

Stuart Rogers: 4:01

Yeah, good thanks. It's good to be away from the house where we were battling trying to set a new printer up, so this is nice to see how we get on here. Oh wow, the joys of technology.

Andrew Jones: 4:10

Let's hope it does go well, shall we? But uh, but yes, so uh, helen and stewart live relatively local to myself. Um, helen is a vet with the local fryers moore, and stewart is a dairy farmer. That is known to many, certainly within the pedigree breed, and we're here to talk about genomics and how it's worked for them on farm. But first of all, stuart, tell us a little about yourself. How did you get to where you are today?

Stuart Rogers: 4:40

Right, yeah, so I'll try and shrink it down a bit, because helen will always sort of she'll be kicking me if it goes on too long. You have a history, um, yeah. So we, yeah, have always had a pedigree herd through the generations my grandfather to my father and then as a youngster. It's just always on the farm, always with the cows. Back then it was we were going to the royal show and different shows, so that's kind of how the breed was you're under a different prefix, then yeah, so we were charwell, which is our.

Stuart Rogers: 5:12

We were in oxford then, yeah, we moved so attended to the dutch of cornwall. We moved um to dorset in. The cows moved in 2011. So the first calves born at longmore farm became the new longmore prefix yep. So that's how, how the herd. We just wanted a clean break. So we sort of knew, yes, knew where the new cows yep, uh, and just a fresh start on that. So we, just after we moved it gave us a real purpose. We had a future ahead of us, because it was a bit uncertain at the old farm. So we just wanted to push the herd on and continue the in the direction we were already going. But, um, then, uh, genomics we'd started using genomics bulls before 2010, the first genomic bulls. We'd used um and then we started testing in 2012.

Andrew Jones: 6:05

Before, we go too far down that hole. Helen, what's your background?

Helen Rogers: 6:11

So I'm a vet. So I'm a farm animal vet. My parents were dairy farmers. They're now beef farmers, with my sister and I started working in Oxfordshire after I qualified and Stuart and I were the vet farming cliche in terms of a couple and then we moved here and I moved to Fryersmoor in 2011, which has been brilliant that's actually where we first met was on your interview with Fryersmoor, wasn't it? Oh gosh, it was.

Helen Rogers: 6:37

Yes, you're right doing a DA with Lucy you're right, the farm I was milking at the time it took me absolutely ages to place you after that and, um, yeah, so lots changed since then. I became aking at the time. It took me absolutely ages to place you after that. Yeah, so a lot has changed since then. I became a director at Rasmore and I'm still a director for both businesses the small animal and the farm business but most of my work is based around cattle fertility and so genomics is something I'm really interested in and not forgetting your role with the family business as well.

Helen Rogers: 7:07

I guess. Yeah, true, yeah, it's a lot. As your father-in-law would say, that my father-in-law would say there's a lot of excellent pillow talk.

Stuart Rogers: 7:11

So um, yeah, that's come up hi colin, if you're listening, oh dear.

Andrew Jones: 7:23

So, yes, so you've mentioned briefly, but you obviously you were a well-known herd you were showing. You've moved down here. You, you said you started to use a little bit of genomic bulls. Was it 2010? I mean, genomics came in the. What about 2007, 2008, wasn't it really? Um, and I remember seeing the first bulls available I think I used one or two myself when I was still farming um, but what made you made having, I suppose, a well-known herd you're showing, probably classifying well, what made you decide to go. You'd obviously dabbled a bit with genomics and using some of the bulls, but what you made you make the decision to go. We are going head first into genomics. That's going to be our breeding policy. And when did that happen? I suppose?

Stuart Rogers: 8:08

well, I guess we didn't really go to. We initially we started we were using bulls. We knew the sire and the cow family, so we were looking for a strong combination on both sides and really we got more into it as we the calves came along and entering the herd and we were just happy with how they were turning out. So then it just built. Really we just kept building sire choices into the breeding program and until we did a full switch, which I yeah, I guess isn't it's probably pretty quick by 2013 we were fully fully genomic.

Andrew Jones: 8:43

So you probably size, then by then probably getting what first lactation animals out of using some genomic bulls yeah, I guess.

Stuart Rogers: 8:50

Yeah, the 2010 ones. Yeah, they were first eating first lactations, and I think so yeah, so fairly quickly.

Andrew Jones: 8:57

Then you could argue in breeding terms. You'd sort of notice that change and felt that was the way to go forward yeah, I didn't really there was nothing.

Stuart Rogers: 9:06

Really there's a lot of people sort of saying you know how it's not, some things won't work out and different things, so we're sort of cautious. But yep, the further we got into it, the the more distant that that sort of seemed really, and I think it's maybe something to do with the quality of the herd, you know, and the combination yeah, but that you know.

Stuart Rogers: 9:28

So then it's. We started looking at the female side, which was interesting because the first cows that we tested were, um, just through selection, our selection, which isn't the right way how you thought were the best cows. Yeah, then we'd find out oh, they're actually not, as, yeah, you know, we can see where they're it made us really challenge who we recognize as good cow families, didn't it?

Andrew Jones: 9:54

because the cows that you forget about and heard are actually your really good earners and the ones that are just plodding away in the background yeah, the ones you don't see, the ones that aren't lame, the ones that aren't got mastitis, and they just do the job without you even worrying about yeah, so they're not necessarily the ones you would take to a show or you would parade in front of people, but actually they're the really good cows and I think moving also made us really focus on, like, the commercial elements of farming.

Helen Rogers: 10:22

Yeah, like we had to make it work on a new farm, so whilst we were obviously an established herd in Oxfordshire, so genomics really helped us produce a really nice genetic animal who was also really commercially viable it's just made me think and taking a step back.

Andrew Jones: 10:35

I mean, like you're saying, stuart, the the negatives you were hearing early on, I mean from people I talked to at the time the UK was definitely behind other places in the world, I'd say, in taking up genomics.

Andrew Jones: 10:50

I mean, obviously, I was in Oz for 10 years and things were going there, but a couple of contacts I was talking to there they would go. Oh well, some guys already in 2010 had already gone right. We're going full genomic and we know that some bulls will win, some bulls will lose, but overall we will have an upward trajectory. As I said, maybe it's because 500 cows it doesn't matter if you use 10, 20 straws of a bull, because it's not going to have as big an impact if it's a wrong bull, whereas here you make 10 straws in a UK-sized herd it can be the wrong bull, it can make a detrimental effect moving forward. So we, I would argue, certainly here in the uk and people have spoken from the us, whatever we've been a bit slower in taking up genomics, maybe than some you're really you're quite good at taking strangely because you're you're quite risk averse and other things.

Helen Rogers: 11:36

You're actually really good at taking risks and trying out new things on the farm.

Stuart Rogers: 11:41

I always think and I yeah, I think we quite an early adopter of quite a lot of stuff but we sort of identified you know that it always been the pedigree the interest in how cows looked. Yes, and that's why when we did this genomic testing, we sort of found it wasn't until we tested everything that we were finding cows that we didn't know at what point?

Andrew Jones: 12:01

because you said you'd selectively tested some. At what point did you then go?

Stuart Rogers: 12:05

oh, let's go and do everything well, because we realized that from those initial ones that yeah, we're still not using it to its full potential because we're we're making the selections. It's a choice we're made. An emotional attachment to a cow, yes, yes, where it ends up and you know, making you lose a bit of money, really, because it's a cow, that she'll take more straws to get in calf, but you keep plodding on because Whoever they are.

Stuart Rogers: 12:31

Yeah, so, like Helen said, we were a bit more focused on the sort of finances of the operation really. So finding, testing the whole herd gave us the option to find the cows that were going to really make us the money how did your father take this, given that you were almost?

Andrew Jones: 12:51

how do I put this potentially rubbishing 30, 40 years of his work to then go? Well, actually, that cow isn't as good as what we thought we were, or we thought she was. We want to go this way instead, I think he didn't really.

Stuart Rogers: 13:08

He's always been really open to change because he was one of the first people to jump into holstein's yep, so he's had that about him anyway yes, yes and it wasn't. You know, we still had the cows there. We still classify, yeah, and we were still, uh, taking pictures of cows. So we had amazing cows. Yep, you know, um classifying wise, um, plus really good genomic figures, so it was a full package just another step on in a slightly different direction yeah you're still going in in the overall direction you intended to go exactly and then you just change your.

Stuart Rogers: 13:41

You know you'll just change your alignment to cows changes for the figure. So over time you'd sort of change your. You know you'll just change your alignment to cows changes for the figure. So over time you'd sort of change your perception of the cows that you want in the herd. So now it's a less individual basis, it's more of a herd package.

Sarah Bolt: 13:58

So actually using those figures rather than using what your eyes were telling you? Yeah, exactly.

Helen Rogers: 14:02

And I think we had. So we did some analysis quite early on after we started testing all the heifers, uh, and we compared like parent average against genomics, um, and just to check that they were, uh, like we weren't getting any massive disparities, and and it just, and we it gave us confidence that the data was accurate.

Andrew Jones: 14:23

Basically, so were there any big surprises at the time when you did do the whole herd? Was there a particular herd favourite or family that was like, oh, they really haven't. They aren't what we're. Helen's nodding yes.

Stuart Rogers: 14:38

Yes and others that weren't. I was going to say no.

Helen Rogers: 14:44

There definitely were and interestingly, interestingly as the herd has improved. So those, those families which we identified early on as potentially being less good, as the herd has improved, yeah, their progeny have really fallen back like and so the else family would be an example, wouldn't it? Um, they, their health traits aren't great, are they? And we wouldn't, but they were heard. They were a family that you invested in, you deliberately invested in, because you really liked them. Their pedigree, didn't you? But actually, performance wise, they haven't been as good at all, have they?

Stuart Rogers: 15:22

um, yeah, I don't know that was. Yeah, I guess they're certain elements of each family, but there's families that will jump out and be a complete package, and that's what we're looking for, because you can have areas that some excel and some don't.

Andrew Jones: 15:39

But yes looking at it as a whole and that one might be slightly better on production, whereas that one's slightly better on health traits or whatever.

Stuart Rogers: 15:46

Yeah, and the health traits are so important. You know, it's probably the single most important part of it, because the losses we have in the herd are down to health. So now where we are, we started testing everything in 2014. So we're 11 years. Every single cow in the herd's tested.

Andrew Jones: 16:06

We've got a just what I said tag and test, basically is there.

Stuart Rogers: 16:09

Yeah, so as they're born, we test them and send them off. So, um, yeah, we just get a really big load of data about each animal. So if you analyze the herd now, um, and a genetic review form, you can see so much you know. And it's backed up by genomics rather than pa, which we've had that split through from being all pa to yep, uh, partial genomics. Now it's full genomics and and no pa.

Andrew Jones: 16:37

So how have you found we mentioned cow families. You've invested, obviously, in some. You've got a cosmopolitan, is that right there? Yeah, and others. How have you found your own families that father, grandfather, developed, have compared to some of those internationally known families?

Helen Rogers: 16:56

Can I answer that one? I think and it's not just at Longmore like on every single farm, your own cows that you breed will inevitably last longer, and reason they're there's your system yeah, they've been bred for your system.

Helen Rogers: 17:09

They survived on your system. Yeah, um, and we? We've definitely found that, haven't we? I think the cows that we have bred at longmore, in the early stages, have been the best ones, and cows that we brought in haven't necessarily performed as we would have anticipated but genomically are they performing, how they perform in hold on, let me get the terms like phenotype and genotype.

Andrew Jones: 17:32

How are they genomically performing but not phenotype performing?

Helen Rogers: 17:37

yes, yeah, because they're not adapted, because they're not bred for your environment, yeah yeah, and that's where, like, epigenetics comes into it a bit more, doesn't it?

Stuart Rogers: 17:45

yeah, we found this recently. Um well, going back to some of the oldest families, the sunset family, uh, the? Um. My grandfather bought the first one in yep in the 1940s, so we're still, but their genomic scores are still really high, so we've got those cows still performing really well. And then recently we bought some embryos that were biopsied genetic.

Stuart Rogers: 18:14

So we knew the genetic value, and then they have come in and not hit the mark at all. So what we can breed with what we know, yeah, far better than what we can bring in. So there's no point looking to bring anything else in because we've got so much quality, so much quality within the herd, you know. So it's now. It's for seven and a half years we've been sex semen and beef, so we're making huge progress with the sex semen, which when genomics first started it was mostly conventional semen, so we had still had that 50 50. So progress is a bit slower.

Andrew Jones: 18:49

So it's now for the sex semen straw price making really good progress but it is interesting that we so you mentioned epigenetics and, fingers crossed, we've got someone lined up to talk about that cool we're supposed to be here later today but they're busy crunching numbers so we will, fingers crossed, get that later this year.

Andrew Jones: 19:07

But um, um. But it's interesting. You say, yeah, that genetically some are measuring up, but phenotypically they are not. And it is. It's always been the ones that obviously. I've brought cows in the past and some of them don't do as well as what you expect them to do. They're doing well on their home farm, but they're just not everyone's environment's different, and you hear how many times you hear people. I brought this cow and it was doing 10 000 liters, but it's only doing seven for me or whatever.

Helen Rogers: 19:35

There's usually a reason for that and an element of that, uh, disappointment, is your psychology, isn't it the fact that you know, you can remember, exactly how much you invested in that?

Andrew Jones: 19:44

yes, yes, you always. You always remember the ones you you spent the money on, or whatever it happens to be. Don't, like they always say, you always remember the good ones that have gone. Yes, because but that is interesting to hear, that. Definitely, but it is also.

Stuart Rogers: 19:57

Yeah, so the, the ones you already had on farm, are doing just as well as anything that you've you've brought in yeah, I think so, and yeah, one of the best families now would be the bridget family that we bought in a calf in 1999 and it's now had time to develop to your yes yeah, every bread yeah yeah, over time some families will adapt and change and fit your system, but there will be some that you'll struggle. You know, continually struggle with yeah, yeah, definitely.

Andrew Jones: 20:27

So that's interesting. Oh well, I'm looking forward to this epigenetics talk now that'll be so epigenetics is so cool I, I think so it's the next step yeah yeah, to be honest, it was. It was a complete throwaway line in the uh immunogy podcast that came out recently, and off the back of that someone contacted me in linkedin and said oh, I know someone that can come and talk about it guy called ian. I can't remember his surname. But uh, yeah, he's got some startup company. We'll, we'll find out, we'll find out.

Andrew Jones: 20:56

So so yeah but yeah, he's all into his epigenetics and stuff, um. So anyway, sorry, we're getting distracted, um, but anyway, uh, yeah, so you dumped in. Well, you now full at it. Did you say seven years, was it? I think you said was it, the whole hurt?

Andrew Jones: 21:13

no, it was yeah, when did you say you, sorry, you started doing the whole herd 2014, sorry, yeah. And then you, obviously. And then you said full sec notes, full sex semen, seven, seven and a half years, yeah, yeah. So I suppose the question how many bull calves do you get?

Stuart Rogers: 21:28

four or five a year or five years.

Andrew Jones: 21:31

Of course, everyone always does. I just thought it's one to throw in, because you always get some. Oh, I got so many. Well, you're always going to get the old bull calf with this.

Stuart Rogers: 21:37

Yeah, I think you know, but if you look at it really, it's just so much better. The reliability is so good because you know we're getting the similar fertility results at the same perception rate for semen compared to beef.

Andrew Jones: 21:49

So where are you using that sex semen? Now, is it you're picking your best cows? Is it just your heifers? Or how are you using your semen across the herd?

Stuart Rogers: 21:59

and the majority um of matings are from heifers and first lactation and first lactation yeah depend.

Stuart Rogers: 22:07

Yeah, I mean, we're still looking then how they performed in the first lactation and how their genomic, genomic figures stack up. Really so, but then that means the older part proportion of the, the herd, is running a bit like a flying herd now because it's just so much beef, you know, across the once we've made that, yeah, we've got that bank, that genetic from that cow, then what would be the oldest cow you currently have that you are breeding replacements from maybe a third carver because you know, there's the old, the old saying there's no such thing as old genetics, just good and bad genetics I think it's one of the things that people really struggle with getting their head around is the fact that, um, they would like to see a proven dam on the ground.

Helen Rogers: 22:57

They'd like to know what her milk it is, what her cell count is going to be like, before they even consider giving her sex semen. But that massively extends your generation interval and your rate of genetic gain. So you kind of have to trust that the 70%, 80% accuracy by then will be worth testing in and, to be honest, things have moved on, haven't they?

Andrew Jones: 23:17

Because, let's be honest, we said what genomics started what? 2006, 2007 or whenever it was, and was it 2012,. New Zealand pulled a whole team, but we're now another 12, 13 years. Since then, you guys have obviously been doing it full time for whatever. How many years? It's 10 years, whatever. By what you're saying, that you started testing the whole herd and you're seeing the result of that from what you're seeing. You've already briefly mentioned the fertility and, I'm guessing, all the other health, health traits as well yeah, but, yeah.

Helen Rogers: 23:48

But it does take a bit of a leap of faith. You have to, and I think people feel disappointed that they're not using their amazing third, fourth carvers, uh, chucking out loads of milk and yeah, um, and appear to them to be really commercially viable. But you do have to focus on those young genetics that are going to be superior.

Andrew Jones: 24:04

I think I would still struggle myself. I'd be going well, what's wrong? With her. She's proving what she's supposed to be doing. Why can't we keep breeding from her?

Stuart Rogers: 24:15

They still have their place, they're still doing an amazing job, and if that good cow then has had one or two daughters, then granddaughters are coming along and I suppose I think it's sex semen, isn't it?

Andrew Jones: 24:27

I mean, back then even then sex semen was a little bit, you used it, but again it's just improved improved, improved because they always said you're saying you're using on your first lactation animals.

Andrew Jones: 24:37

We always used to be. Don't use them on there because that's where you used to struggle because nutritionally or whatever reason they those were the animals that always used to be. Don't use them on there because that's where you used to struggle because nutritionally or whatever reason they those were the animals that usually struggled more on conception with sex semen and obviously you're using it and it is. It's all moved on, hasn't it?

Helen Rogers: 24:50

yeah, and you have to keep fine-tuning things, like you can't necessarily do what you do, what you've always done, so like we get, you know we've got. We've invested in technology so we know exactly the stage that the cows are in heat. So we know how to time our um insemination insemination to when they're in heat, which really helps with your sex human conception rate.

Andrew Jones: 25:09

Yeah, there's lots of fine tuning that you can do yeah, I suppose, as it's not being taken into consideration when you're making a decision. How have to the eye stewart? How have you found the herd has developed? Is it still pleasing to the eye? Are you classifying as well, do you think? Because there was certainly you know when, when health traits first came out or, you know, became the big thing mid, what, 2000, early 2000, whatever it was a lot of those higher health trait balls were how do do I put it? The plainer animals. When it came to type, and I'm guessing you know things have changed. But how have you found like classification or things like that have changed since you've gone down more this route rather than maybe the way you would have done it in the past?

Stuart Rogers: 25:54

I think we still classify. We still have different classifications that are really good. Still have different classifications that are really good. Yeah, um, last time we had a 95 point cow, yeah, and you'll be. You'd be really disappointed to know that she's in calf to beef.

Andrew Jones: 26:08

I was gonna say I bet she's not in calf, is she?

Stuart Rogers: 26:12

she's, you know, she's done her her work genetically, but um, but she's building up that pedigree isn't she for the, for the generations?

Andrew Jones: 26:19

so?

Stuart Rogers: 26:19

classification still is an important part for you. Yeah, there's been odd bulls, but I think we had odd bulls and that's what our main focus was. So I guess we're you know, we're still in a in a good place on that really so.

Andrew Jones: 26:32

Hopefully this is taking out some of that degree of risk, isn't it because you say it's now 70 percent, rather than 35 percent, under parent average?

Helen Rogers: 26:40

you, you, we still breed some absolute dogs occasionally, but that's kind of part of the motivation, isn't it? To try and explain. Yeah, exactly, it's an art as much as it is a science, isn't?

Andrew Jones: 26:49

it Breeding always has been, and you just don't know which genes you're going to see. But you're not disappointed that in that time it's gone in a way you didn't want to see I don't think it really has gone too far from where it was before.

Stuart Rogers: 27:05

I haven't got the classification results to hand, but I think we're. You know it's still amazing the results, we sorry I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just.

Andrew Jones: 27:15

I know there's people going to ask this kind of stuff, and it's, I think.

Helen Rogers: 27:17

But the interesting thing is making that point like probably I don't know 15 years ago, you'd be able to remember all of the classification results. That would have been a real focus for us. Now, the classification is much less important in terms of ranking our cows. So, yeah, and you could probably remember what the genomics, the PLI, is of various heifers off the top of your head, but you no longer remember the classification results just because it's less important for us, isn't it?

Stuart Rogers: 27:44

yeah, I guess, looking back, we would have had a cow. That would have been a high scoring like 95 point.

Andrew Jones: 27:51

Let's well, I'll take you 95 point, animal.

Stuart Rogers: 27:53

Now you know, yeah, and we'd have bred her and made replacements from that cow through throughout her whole milking career. But she could have been a certain percentile down on production or health traits to other cows. So actually we could have been breeding in a cow you know the wrong sort of cow. We would have let things slip. You know the bad fertility or low production, or yeah, she's 95 points.

Andrew Jones: 28:19

We'll just give her that little bit extra, extra go or whatever it happens to be.

Helen Rogers: 28:23

I think the really cool thing about genomics is you've got everything on one piece of paper, yeah, almost everything. So rather than just like looking at the cat out and then you kind of forget about her you know, you might be looking at her confirmation, but you forget about her fertility or mastitis you actually have all that on paper, so it allows you to make a really informed decision so I guess that means moving on.

Andrew Jones: 28:44

How are you seeing them in terms of genotype and phenotype? In terms of results you're getting on farm? Are they do what they must be because you've, you're going in there, but are they doing what you're expecting them to do?

Helen Rogers: 28:56

so if you rank, like if you rank our herd according to their genomic potential, you rank them according to that potential, then you can see. If you then look at their fertility index that, for example, days to calving, sorry days to conception, comes down significantly as the genetics improve. So the more superior genetically the cows are, the lower their days to conception.

Andrew Jones: 29:20

So those cows that are high fertility genomically are getting back in calf quicker. You are seeing that repeatedly on farm.

Helen Rogers: 29:27

Yeah, and the same, trusting the results yeah, exactly and the same for something like if you look at milk per cow per day, um, and you look at their genomic milk yield predictions, then there's a really positive correlation um with the more superior genetics, yeah and how long did it take to really get that confidence that actually what you're seeing in the, the genetics is, is what you're what, what, you're

Helen Rogers: 29:49

getting um, I think, I don't think it took that long, did it? I think as soon as they were in milk and we were getting a backing calf, it was pretty easy to see that they, that those, that those improvements were being made yeah, it was really quick.

Stuart Rogers: 30:04

You know, we, the first ones we tested, uh, were coming back with some with high cell counts and then early recordings, high cell counts, you know, and so we sort of started building a picture and the confidence started growing quicker, you know, and that's why we adopted you know, just jumped in and adopted it. And the other started growing quicker, you know, and that's why we adopted you know, just jumped in and adopted it.

Helen Rogers: 30:24

And the other things are actually really easy to like just kind of off the top of your head to correlate. So like cows, you know Hephaestus carbone with high, persistent, high cell counts or have repeated cases of mastitis.

Andrew Jones: 30:34

If you go back and look at their genomics they very often do correlate and that's the kind of thing that helps you build up your trust in it. Um, because I should say I'll drop it in here as it stands at the moment. You're now currently the number three pill I heard in the uk. But I mean, this talk came off the back of you, came to give a talk to the discussion club that I'm secretary for, and I remember you making a comment. That was never your aim, was it? It was never to be that high rankingranking herd, it was just to do what you wanted to do on farm.

Stuart Rogers: 31:03

It still is. I stumbled upon that list so it's not something you know. It's just a herd approach and we can't really. It's our context and how our herd looks. We don't know how other herds look. It's not really. We just focus on how our herd is because everyone else, it's different circumstances, um different things happening on each farm. So, yeah, just trying to do what we do and then it's still a nice feather in the cap, though, isn't it?

Helen Rogers: 31:31

I was gonna say it's uh, it is pretty cool when you see them up, when you see the longmore prefix up the rankings yeah, yeah, I think so, but we you know it's um can be excited about it.

Stuart Rogers: 31:41

I just yeah, it's just, that's something that's in the background and it's can.

Andrew Jones: 31:48

Yes, the challenge is just it's just for you for two years. Is that the right word? I'm not sure it is, but it just happens to be the a byproduct of what you've done, and it's a great thing. But that has never been your aim to.

Stuart Rogers: 32:00

I just think it, looking at that as a side, it's just trying to continue and build on what we have to make the herd yep continue to move, and it's a bit of sort of thing. It's a bit of a snakes and ladders sort of setup. When you get a proof run and yeah, you're building nicely, and then the figures are, you know, suddenly someone pulls the rug out and then you sort of build again.

Stuart Rogers: 32:21

So you're kind of where you are, but ultimately the herd is, you know, incredibly well positioned in many different areas now. So there's lots of different things, lots of different moving parts on the genetic front that keep the herd doing what we need it to do. So there's a lot of balance between highly productive cows but healthy cows. So, looking at the different, the breakdown of the of the proofs to get everything we need in, you know, in there, looking at the um ahdb figures and where the increases we've made over the last few years are really interesting, but that isn't a static figure. What's being bred and what's coming through could change that either way. So we need to always just be keeping an eye on what we're doing to keep things moving the right way.

Andrew Jones: 33:13

I think so who actually makes bull choice and makes mating decisions? Stuart?

Helen Rogers: 33:18

does it all himself.

Stuart Rogers: 33:19

You do it all yourself. Yeah, so no, we haven't ever used a program. So yeah, it's just, we've got, with technology, now, all the phone. You know, on the phone you've got the genetic figures right there and the bull figures. So it's, we try and reduce the number of bulls we have in the pot, which seems to happen, on availability anyway what do you know how? Half dozen two or three, two or three usually.

Helen Rogers: 33:44

Usually one red and white and two yeah, so a couple of which would be less than we would recommend for her to struggling with so like if you're just starting out on using sex semen, you'd say you should spread your risk and have five or six, but I think in established herds who are really good at using sex semen, then that's fine yeah yeah little caveat yeah right do as I say, not as I do but yeah, so yeah, you're doing himself.

Andrew Jones: 34:09

So again, congratulations to you. That it's not you're not.

Helen Rogers: 34:11

You're not using a but I think that's like it's because you're interested, though, and I think you're interested and you're really good at knowing the limitations of the environment and what we need to breed in to maximise the expression of that potential. There are quite a lot of people who just don't have time to sit and think they just haven't got the headspace for loads of reasons to think about genetics, but it does really pay off because it's a massive investment and I think every farmer's input into your genetic choice is so valuable and if they could give a little bit more time and headspace, it would really really help their herd improve.

Andrew Jones: 34:48

I probably used to be more like Stuart when I was still milking or when I was still in Australia. I was probably more like Stuart. I just lived and breathed genetics. That was my first thing. And you know, I'd have conversations with my vet who'd be going oh you should be using something in the top 10. No, no, no, no, no, no. And and you know, and I was talking to her because obviously I was selling stock bulls as well as ai bulls I talked to the neighbor what bull are you using at the moment? Oh, I'm using this bull and because he's good family.

Andrew Jones: 35:14

But and being north queensland, you want good feet. Well, why are you using him? He's shallow heel depth is. He didn't know that because all they were looking at is the, the. They didn't even have a feet and legs over there. You just had a. What was it? It was a type and I can't remember, was it? I don't, I can't remember whatever it was composite. But they weren't looking at the breakdown. And that's what you're obviously doing is looking at the breakdown to see what's there. But I mean I'm gonna say have you got any other criteria other than the genomics? Do you sort of go cow family still a little bit, or do you sires come into it, or is it just purely on those genomic figures as to how you make that choice?

Stuart Rogers: 35:48

that's the, the starting point, purely that figure. That's your the primary draw, yep, and then after that is a breakdown and looking. So still look at things. Pay attention to teat length and rump.

Andrew Jones: 36:00

Yeah, the rump for I can say if some of the something might be have a good uh genomic figure, but if they're really high in the rump or whatever, that's an extreme example I'm just using.

Stuart Rogers: 36:09

You'd probably go no and knock them out for that reason yeah, or if there was something that could actually make the adjustment we needed to make yes it's very much an individual basis and I think the main, the main thing we've done is taken the genomic scores and actually use them, and I think there's a lot that would get the genomics but not use the figures.

Helen Rogers: 36:30

Yeah, you've got like a minimum, haven't you? So, uh, or you have a threshold, didn't you? For, in terms of something like pli, that you would only if they're below that threshold you definitely would breed into beef and then, if they're above that threshold, you would look at the proof and look at the genomic proof and work out what whether they're worth breeding yeah, and it could be a cat, could be two half sisters, yep, and one or twins.

Stuart Rogers: 36:54

You know there could be one that's a lower, yeah, and you just take one, you know the one that sits in, and it just means that that one will come through and be a good milking cow in the herd and do her job in the herd, but the genetics will come from the higher one. But two sisters one. It could just be that mating didn't work and within a mating, like with twins, there's a lot of variation in the figures. Anyway, you could get 150 points between progeny, so, you know, between sisters.

Helen Rogers: 37:26

So it's a lot of you're really good at being strict as well, because um that takes some effort, that does yeah, like we like 2709. The other day you actually admitted you had a favorite and but you and you kind of battled with yourself.

Stuart Rogers: 37:39

It wasn't you, no, definitely not, uh, and you'd battled with yourself.

Helen Rogers: 37:42

It wasn't you, helen? No, definitely not. And you'd battled with yourself only a bit, because you knew you had to breed it to beef, but you didn't.

Stuart Rogers: 37:49

Yeah, once you've done it a few times it gets easier.

Stuart Rogers: 37:53

Then you just sort of look to the future. Yeah, you just sort of push past that and look to the future, but then the classification and the production, the productive life they have in the herd is still incredibly satisfying. You know, to have healthy cows, yeah, I think you know. Now it's just a change and it's just we've adapted and adjusted as things have moved. And I think if you don't, you're left with a herd that you know potentially is going to start losing, losing your position in you know financial position and money that you know potentially is going to start losing, losing your position, and in you know financial position and money that you know is difficult to it sounds like going back to my comment on bull selection, whereas, like when genomics first came into me, genomics was the last thing I looked at because I was looking at pedigree, I was looking at cow family and all of this stuff.

Andrew Jones: 38:38

And then what today, if I had two that was similar, what was the better one? On the genomics, you're going genomics first and then look at the breakdowns from what that's telling you and where you you go and you say that's times have moved on yeah, I remember having conversations with you.

Stuart Rogers: 38:55

Know similar conversations with you when you know genomics yes, in its early stages and we were talking you know sort of talking that had that exact conversation. And yeah, you know genomics, yes, in its early stages, and we were talking you know sort of talking that had that exact conversation. And, yeah, you know, when we first met then so it's, yeah, it's just gone, yeah, it's just moved so far forwards. You know, we cut all. You know it's a struggle to remember where we were, because it's so normal now it's just exactly when it's normal to you, it's harder to.

Andrew Jones: 39:22

How do I know? How do it when you're used to doing normally and somebody suddenly starts doing what someone isn't doing, it like well, why aren't you? Because it's just normal and we're seeing the benefits of doing. Why aren't you doing it?

Helen Rogers: 39:33

and there are loads of other wins as well. So, like, if you're using genetically superior sires, you're gonna and even if you're not focusing on things like enviro cow or healthy cow, you're inevitably going to breed two sires with really high, uh, genetic, genetic potential for those. So, um, you get all those hidden benefits without knowing that you're actually focusing them.

Andrew Jones: 39:52

Yeah, so I guess we've sort of talked about how you've got to where. So, helen moore I'm guessing it's probably more yourself who's looked at the data from conversations I've had with Stuart or presentations Stuart's made and he's gone. Well, Helen's done this and I don't really understand half of this. It's her thing. Talk us through some of the results that you've seen when you've gone through all the data.

Helen Rogers: 40:15

So I guess we touched on it before before. There's definitely a really positive correlation between um milk yield, milk per day and the genetic potential of the cows within the herd and constituents show the same um positive correlation so it's the obvious bits that are paying the money are paying the money, basically, yeah, absolutely um and um, cell count, mastitis, all of those things fertility you've always had like.

Helen Rogers: 40:41

You've always had a really strong focus on fertility and I think it's really nice to see that really coming forward. So our preg rate would sit comfortably anywhere between 34% and 38%, depending on where we're PDing and where we are in the year, and that's a really high figure. I'm really proud of that fertility because you don't see those figures on many other farms who's doing the inseminations?

Helen Rogers: 41:08

and then uh victor and I are your um, yeah, the majority so doing a good job definitely um, yeah, so there's, and the cell that you know, the cell count is always sitting around 70 68 70, so it's amazing in itself as well. Yeah, and it's brilliant and we have got a really good team. We focus a lot on the environment and protocols and picking up sick cows. We've invested in technology to make sure that we're really quick at picking those up.

Andrew Jones: 41:35

Can I ask what?

Helen Rogers: 41:36

So we use CowManager tags. I was wondering if it was CowManager yeah, which are really simple for everyone to use and, um, I mean, the technology is excellent. Whatever you use just gives you so much more real time data that you can look at wherever you are in the world, and I'd say it's just remembering.

Andrew Jones: 41:51

it's a tool. You've still got to know how to read that data and act on that data. I was talking to someone the other day and he said they tell me all this stuff but it doesn't matter, it might pick it up quicker. But if you don't then pick up that lame cow or pick up that mastitis and do something about it, then what's the point?

Helen Rogers: 42:10

Yeah, absolutely yeah. So it's just learning to. You're right, it's about learning to read it and staying, and staying, really conscientious, all of the time.

Andrew Jones: 42:25

So, um, yeah, so our antibiotic use has massively plummeted, so it's really low. Yeah, so I know it is. So go on tell us what it is, because it's an outstanding figure uh, so it sits um.

Helen Rogers: 42:31

It's about 5.6 mgs per pcu, so that is awesome.

Andrew Jones: 42:35

It is really low, so I think, if we go back to the one we did with katherine, what's the uk average? About 19.

Helen Rogers: 42:43

So I mean you're, you're almost a quarter of the national average yeah, and in this area, like our herds are amazing, like as a veterinary practice, our fryers, more herd sits um at about 10 mg per pcu a bit lower now, yeah, um, which is amazing like we've worked really hard over a number of years on on um improving our like responsible use of antibiotics. Um, but it's particularly low uh for us um in what is a really high yielding holstein herd.

Andrew Jones: 43:08

So and you think that's down.

Helen Rogers: 43:10

A lot of that's down to the genomics I think so because it's just without us, without us really consciously pushing health traits. We have improved our genetic, how genetically healthy the herd is.

Andrew Jones: 43:22

So yeah, so from your point of view, all that ticks all the boxes it does, and I'm guessing you're pushing this onto your plants a little bit as well I don't know.

Helen Rogers: 43:31

I mean, yeah, I think every fight you can't have a blanket treatment for all your farms because every farm is different and yeah yeah has different circumstances and different pressures um, but you've got a good case study at home to go. It does work yeah, and it's becoming increasingly more available.

Helen Rogers: 43:45

So we've got a crossbred genomic tool which was released um in february, and that means that it's much more available to a lot of our herds and yeah, there's a lot of crossbreds here locally there are loads of crossbreds and and they haven't been able to do anything with genomics up until this point, so it'd be really interesting to see what the uptake is of that so what sort of advice would you give anybody that's listening now and thinking I like the, I like the sound of that, but I I haven't tried it.

Sarah Bolt: 44:11

What's the best route to go down as to giving a go, what would you suggest?

Helen Rogers: 44:16

um, I would suggest that you don't. If you're thinking about dabbling and testing I don't know 20% of your cows test randomly, because you'll be surprised at the results you get and take the jump like plummet in quite quickly and start testing all of your calves. So spend the money on building up that knowledge in your young stock and there'll be a lag period to see how they perform but it'll be worth it.

Andrew Jones: 44:45

Who does your testing, cogent? Cogent, because, just bearing this in mind, I had a client who's now retired from Daring and he did test all his heifers. He had like 50 heifers and he only wanted 30, for argument's sake. And someone he had like 50 heifers and he only wanted 30 for, I can say, and someone came in and tested them all, gave him the figures and then basically walked away and he's like means nothing to me. So it's also having the support, isn't it from whoever you're getting from, to make sure you can understand those figures, whether it's your vet or your ai rep or whoever it is, that you you don't just take the figures. Well, I guess it's like we talked about technology there's no point having it if you can't use it.

Helen Rogers: 45:24

So it's being able to understand it and make sure you've got somebody that can help work you through talking through what that data is actually means and to make sure that you get some, like independent advice, whether that be someone in the pub like, or you talking to your neighbor in Australia, like just having another pair of eye casting it casting another look over that data will pick up different stuff, so spending the time to look at it with with other people is really important it is.

Andrew Jones: 45:47

I mean I know you know most people are busy, but it there's no point having that data if you. I mean I remember when we put in the rotary in North Queensland the guys from Westphalia said, oh you know, unless you've got time to look at that computer and look at the data, there's no point. I mean you look at robots the other extreme now. I mean the amount of data that comes out of those robots is just phenomenal. You've got to be able to um, you've got to have the skills, and I think that's where farming's changed. So much?

Sarah Bolt: 46:18

isn't it over the last sort of 10-15 years that the amount of data that each farm is producing these days it's, it's working always and what's the which are the important bits of data that I can actually use and make a decision on?

Helen Rogers: 46:30

and you've got to be interested in data. Like I think um the most successful farmers are the people that tailor their um their system, to their personality. So stew Stuart's really interested in data and efficiency, and that's why you're really driven by investing in technology.

Stuart Rogers: 46:48

Yeah, I just didn't know where you were going to go.

Helen Rogers: 46:51

But we both are, aren't we? We really like looking at figures and you're interested in making everything more efficient. So it works really well to invest in technology, but that wouldn't necessarily match everyone's character and there's no point in doing it if you're not going to use it.

Sarah Bolt: 47:05

And and not going to or surround yourself with the people that that that are interested in, isn't it? Yeah? It's if you haven't got those skills yourself or those passions for yourself, it's surround yourself with those people but, but, but seriously.

Andrew Jones: 47:21

But you're right there because I mean, we've said it in other podcasts before it's not just you, it's the team yeah, whether that's nutritionists or geneticists or vets or whoever agronomists, whoever it happens to be, it's having that team around you that you have confidence in to give you the right advice, to do the right thing at the right time, and and go on that journey with you wherever that journey happens to be the pressures on agriculture increase and ramp up.

Sarah Bolt: 47:48

And, yeah, you need, yeah, you need to be able to pick other people's brains, and I want to pick up on something that I know stewart mentioned just the other day sort of the the context of why you do stuff and actually sharing that with the team around you that they all understand what you want to achieve with your farm is is so hugely important.

Stuart Rogers: 48:05

I was just going to say that as well. The team, you know having the cows work the way they do means the team understand that the cows, the health then reflects on their daily you know the daily jobs they're doing. Because there's less cow treatments, you know when we're with access to cow manager and early interventions, which are now fluid therapy and anti-inflammatory, so far less of the things that used to be involved with treatments. You know it's sort of a different thing and so for them, they, you know they can sort of see and engage with how the herd is and as the farm as a whole is moving. So yeah, I think it's really important to but you're right, actually it's the.

Andrew Jones: 48:46

It's those um unhealthy cows that take up the time, isn't it? Yeah, yeah you know it's, it's it's pulling those cows out to treat them, or the downer cow or whatever, the, the non-routine stuff because of health. That is the frustrating stuff, because it takes time or effort or whatever it happens to be. So if you've not got that, it's got to make happier staff as well. I would have thought, because you're not doing that kind of yeah, um, not mundane, but the the stuff that nobody likes to. You know, it's really demoralizing, isn't it?

Helen Rogers: 49:17

it's like when you are feeding calves and you have a load of sick calves, they take ages and it's really demoralizing, isn't it? It's like when you are feeding calves and you have a load of sick calves, they take ages and it's really demoralizing. But yeah, we are like really lucky with our team. We've got some really good stock people and, um, they're really in tune with cows, aren't they?

Stuart Rogers: 49:30

yeah, and I think it's a culture, isn't it? You know, that's our the way we run the business, and it's very inclusive for the team. Yeah, so we're all aligned and, yeah, and making things work and they understand why yeah and then we're all benefiting from it.

Stuart Rogers: 49:43

So, you know, the better, the better your business is for that, the the more you can relay that back back to them. So I think it's a, you know, it's a really important area to be focusing on, and I think people probably need to spend more time looking at the cows they want to bring into the herd because they're there for so long, aren't they?

Andrew Jones: 50:04

If they're problematic, yeah, Well, if they're that problematic, they won't be there. But ultimately you say there's a cost to that. Yeah, a huge cost to that. So you want to make those.

Stuart Rogers: 50:16

you know we're limited places. We can't expand the herd, so each cow place we have has to be the best it can be.

Helen Rogers: 50:24

I think it gives you the confidence genomics gives you the confidence to not breed from animals as well. So the easiest way to improve your herd average is to get rid of your low performers, and you do that by really. You can do that really confidently with genomics because you have actually like really accurate data in front of you so you don't have to breed, you don't have to continue to serve or run with the bull, the heifer, who hasn't got in calf and hasn't got in calf, and then she ends up being three and a half years old when she carves in, because that you know that you've got loads of other genetically superior animals coming along behind her.

Sarah Bolt: 50:56

So I think it it makes you much clearer in your decision making and and actually we all know that that's the right, would have been the right decision at the time, but we don't want to make it, for whatever reason.

Andrew Jones: 51:06

Yeah, certainly has it made you less sentimental then, Stuart, or were the sounds of it not?

Stuart Rogers: 51:12

No, it's a good question, because I thought sometimes I think it has, but I don't think it has. You know, yeah, individuals, but the herd that is still the cows, and we still get up every morning, everything we do is for the cows. So I don't think just on an individual basis. Maybe it's a potential change, but no, everything we do is we only do what we do because we love what we do.

Andrew Jones: 51:37

Yeah, you know, getting up and milking cows. It's not something for everybody yeah, no, I think yeah.

Helen Rogers: 51:46

And it also is really encouraging, I think, because you know that you've got something to look forward to in the future, like if you've got a heifer that's just been born, you've got a heteronomic proof back, you know she's got loads of potential. You can focus less on the fact that you've lost potentially a really nice cow and think about, well, actually, like there's loads to look forward to going forward, and I think that's something that's quite difficult in farming sometimes well, I guess I always used to say, if I'm going to milk cows, I'd rather milk good cows.

Andrew Jones: 52:12

Yeah, hence going invested, like I did in, in cows, because I thought, well, you know, you know cows with tits out all here, there and everywhere, and why do I want to get up and milk them? I'd rather have that lovely udder and and and, whatever it happens to be. And it makes it more pleasurable to want to be there, doesn't it? It gives you that desire and, as you say, when you know you've got that, I mean, okay, I'll mention her that shuttle. I mean, even from a very young age, I remember my mother saying something and I just turned around said, oh, she's going to be my global superstar. Now, that was very tongue-in-cheek at the time, because she was probably only a month old, but when you knew you had something exciting like that coming, it just makes it all that more exciting, doesn't it? And something to look forward to.

Stuart Rogers: 52:51

Yeah, and I think now, instead of having individuals, we've got whole groups, a whole load of them, a whole load of them, and they're coming through so quickly because of just the effort we put into breeding them, managing the early stages to get them into production earlier.

Andrew Jones: 53:08

You mentioned groups. Do you find you're having less variation now genomically than what you would have when you started? Yeah, I think Between your top and your bottom are closer than what they would have been in the past.

Helen Rogers: 53:24

I don't know if that's possible, because you're always going to get a normal distribution, aren't you?

Andrew Jones: 53:28

I don't know if that's statistically possible.

Stuart Rogers: 53:30

You're still going to get that distribution. You carry on. I'm glad you took that.

Andrew Jones: 53:36

You're still going to get your normal distribution, but it might be a tighter distribution, if that makes sense. Your standard deviation is going to be smaller.

Helen Rogers: 53:42

Yes, yeah, you're right, your standard deviation would be smaller.

Andrew Jones: 53:49

Thank God I did A-level statistics.

Sarah Bolt: 53:51

I was going to say this is turning into a statistic part.

Helen Rogers: 53:56

And that then again gives you the confidence to get rid of that left tail you don't need those cows in your herd? Yes, yes, yes, breeding to beef straight away.

Helen Rogers: 54:04

The other thing I think is really good. One of the things I always think you must do in your herd is you need to be future-proofed. So we might have to sell up next year, we might have to change our milk contracts, we might have to do all sorts of things, but if we can create this herd that has the potential to move anywhere else in the country or into a different milk contract or anything like that, because we've created like cows who are performing on all levels whether it be constituents, yield fertility like we.

Andrew Jones: 54:33

it's adaptable this is our business, isn't it like?

Helen Rogers: 54:36

we have, we have to be. It must be commercially viable and it must be future-proofed. And you know, you quite often see farmers who suddenly have to change their milk processor and their herd isn't actually that easy to transfer.

Sarah Bolt: 54:48

And it's building that resilience. It is yeah.

Andrew Jones: 54:51

And you've already said it earlier, actually, when you said you've lowered the genetic not genetic, let me say it right generational gap, because you are turning things around so quickly. Now that you're turning it around, let's say you make a breeding since today, two, three years. Well, you'll know genomically, probably within a year, but in terms of being a milking animal, it's only two, three years that you know she's doing what she's supposed to do, whereas I mean, it's true, I remember my first bull contract going well, it's going to be a year to get her in calf and the bull's got to hit the ground, so that's going to be a year. Then he's got to get anything in calf, so it's another year, it's three years. Then they've got those animals. Have got to be two years. So that's where we now five years.

Sarah Bolt: 55:29

Do we say eight years?

Helen Rogers: 55:30

I'm sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, all right, it's stewart's there and a vast proportion of them aren't even going to make that are they.

Stuart Rogers: 55:39

Oh oh yeah. But you look back and how, yeah, it was a really long, it was you know it was six, seven years before I knew if that mating.

Andrew Jones: 55:45

I'd made for that bull contract was any good, whereas now it's yeah, there's something like Well, you said you biopsied some embryos.

Stuart Rogers: 55:52

Yeah, well, we yeah, and from Canada. So we bought them knowing genetically what they looked like. Yeah, it was a long in a lifetime. You were sort of six or seven generations. Excellent, that's what you could do in a lifetime's work. But breeding heifers at 12 months, getting them at 21 and a half months, we're just turning over.

Sarah Bolt: 56:14

Getting them productive and bringing it's just a sensible way to, as well as being good for car, you know, carbon footprint I was just about to say that you know carving at that age and all of that time that you haven't got them not being productive, yes, must have a huge impact.

Andrew Jones: 56:31

As I say, it sort of fits in what you talk about being robust. You, you, you are more able to move and change direction quicker. Yes, quickly and quicker than we would have done historically. Yeah, for sure.

Helen Rogers: 56:44

And one of the things has the other benefits is we've bred really heavily for constituents, haven't we? Even though it doesn't necessarily benefit us directly every day. But the indirect benefit has been that we've dropped things like the, the fats, out of the diet, haven't we?

Stuart Rogers: 57:02

yeah, three years ago, yep, eleven and a half thousand liters at four and a half fat.

Sarah Bolt: 57:06

So it's, you know that is a great achievement, isn't it?

Stuart Rogers: 57:10

that's a direct effect of twice a day, milking and grazing. So six months of grazing a year, so it's um you say it can be done?

Andrew Jones: 57:18

because I remember, uh, you had a client once and I said to them they always had like not quite as high yield yourself, but really high fats. And I said to them one time and this is for genomics even came out I said, did you used to breed for fat? He said yeah, why? I said because I've got no one else I know can do what you're doing without any fats. I remember he turned to his son and whacked him on the stomach. I told you and that was all because that when they went deregulation they had a cheese contract they bred for it and now they're not on that contract anymore but it it's knocked on through, so it's. They got there without realizing it was. You've concentrated on that and you say you can do it if you, if you've got the genetics there to do it yeah, and that's a massive cost saving.

Stuart Rogers: 57:57

Yeah, every year yeah, and it's better for the. You know, if you look at yes milk, proteins and different things. You know it's all linked in. So I think we've just got to get better at piecing it all together as a whole, you know, looking at the whole picture of a cow, rather than breaking them down into looking at different areas. So you know it's um, if you get everything that health-wise right, the rest falls into place. So it's a key part of it really.

Andrew Jones: 58:26

Well, probably surprised, but I'm looking at the time going, it's probably time we need to start wrapping this up. So I suppose any last words of wisdom from, say, Stuart.

Stuart Rogers: 58:35

Well, Helen will. Nobody has them.

Helen Rogers: 58:39

I've been coaching myself throughout this to stop interrupting, so I think I've done quite well well, yeah, I was.

Andrew Jones: 58:45

I was going to make a comment, but I wait you're not brave, are you Andrew? Well, I was thinking of your father-in-law and I was, oh sorry, your father, your father-in-law. So what excellent pillow talks are going to be tonight talking about this. You interrupted me. No, you shouldn't have said that. No, you shouldn't have. Yeah, we haven't caused any marriage discord from coming no, nothing, no, the printer did that.

Stuart Rogers: 59:10

Um, yeah, no, it's been great to great to talk to you.

Stuart Rogers: 59:13

I think we could carry on talking for a lot longer we could, um, so yes, um, but just yeah, but just, people should give it a try and, like helen says, the new cross, brit, you know, just find out what you've got and see. Oh, actually, that's something that can interest me and something I might actually, or the next generation might, be interested. It might be a way of engaging, you know, yes, increasing engagement with either a team or family so, but I mean the objection.

Andrew Jones: 59:39

I'm saying if you know you go on, some people's gonna be oh well, I don't know what the cost is at the moment, but the cost for doing that per cow is x. I'm not spending that amount of money, but I'm guessing you're saying it is worth it I mean, it's so little money in a lifetime for cow, isn't it?

Helen Rogers: 59:56

if you can get a productive cow? In yeah it's about spreading that cost over the four or five lactations that she's going to be producing milk in your head.

Andrew Jones: 1:00:06

What's it costing you to genomically test an animal currently? About £22, something like that, which isn't really a lot, but I'm just saying something. If I'm doing 100 cows today, £2,200, they might say, oh, but you're saying that that investment is worth the return, definitely.

Helen Rogers: 1:00:24

And the other thing is, if you're starting testing your heifers, you would just start trickling that cost through, so you don't have to do it as a massive outlay of money straight away.

Stuart Rogers: 1:00:32

Yeah, so the older cows you just leave and accept what they are, but the heifers coming through. So that would be your tip yeah, the, yeah, these heifers coming through.

Andrew Jones: 1:00:42

So that would be.

Stuart Rogers: 1:00:42

Your tip is start with your heifers and yeah, start with what's going to be the future and yeah, and then what we've sort of found is because the sex semen and beef part there's two parts of it the sex semen and beef gives us more beef calves, so we've got more money more income in that way yeah, coming in there.

Stuart Rogers: 1:00:59

So we've got that money to spend on on on high sex even, and they're not, we're not using extreme. You know sort of 30, 35 pounds of straw bulls and we can get that genetic and then with the genomics make a cow. That's going to save you so much. On whichever part you've improved, then the money. You know it's just a no-brainer really. It's covered, easily covered and more.

Andrew Jones: 1:01:27

Helen, any more thoughts or last thoughts from yourself?

Helen Rogers: 1:01:31

Oh, thanks, last one, no, I think just, yeah, build up a picture in the herd, get some advice, get someone else to help you look at the data, because it would be a bit mind-boggling. First of all, um, and make sure that if you are unsure as you build up data, like, stick it through, we can stick it through programs to make sure that you are seeing the genetic progress and resulting in those phenotypic gains. So yeah, definitely give it a go.

Sarah Bolt: 1:02:00

Give it a go, sarah I think it's just uh, there's so many tools out there that actually looking at genetics and genomics shouldn't shouldn't phase anybody. It's probably something that has phased me in the past, but actually get the confidence there's the tools out there and there's people out there that know. Surround yourself with those people and give it a try.

Andrew Jones: 1:02:22

I guess that was my thought, as you were just saying that is, you know, 25 years say not quite that that genomics have been around. It's moved on so much. The confidence is there now to do this. You know there were hiccups early on. There's always going to be, but things have moved on and and make use of we should be making use, like all of these things, the technology. It's another piece of technology that we should be making use of. Yeah, um, on that, I'd like to thank both helen and stewart for their time today. It's been fantastic and thank you very much for coming on, um, but otherwise it's a goodbye from me it's goodbye from me and a pleasure to see you both thanks very much for having us both.

Andrew Jones: 1:03:05

Thank you very much thank you for listening to the tune, the cut podcast podcast for the uk dairy industry, brought to you from the southwest of england and listened to around the world. Now for the really boring bit, I'm afraid the legal disclaimer. The information provided during this podcast has been prepared for general information purposes only and does not constitute advice. The information must not be relied upon for any purpose and no representation or warranty is given to its accuracy, completeness or otherwise. Any reference to other organisations, businesses or products during this podcast are not endorsements or recommendations of ChewintheCud Ltd. The views of Andrew Jones are personal and may not be the views of ChewintheCud Ltd, and the views of Sarah Bolt are personal and may not be the views of Kingshay Farming and Conservation Ltd and any affiliated companies. For more information on the podcast and details of services offered by ChewintheCud Ltd, visit www.chewinthecud.com. Thank you and goodbye.